Debate/Dislike a Ship Thread -- CSI:NY

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

First off, Danny/Lindsay fans are welcome wherever they decide to post. If there aren't any posts defending the ship on this page or any other, it's because no D/L fans have posted. *shrug*

I don't think interaction between Danny/Lindsay is "gross" as you say, I just don't think it's got the kind of chemistry that would warrant pushing the ship the way it was at the end of S2 (and the beginning of S3 to an extent). I can see the two of them as friends, but beyond that I suppose we'll never agree. I don't mind that other people see it, I just don't. And as for the Lindsay fans missing her if Anna takes time off, I'm sure that's true--not being a huge fan of the character myself, I probably won't miss her, and when it comes to a debate or discussion thread, I'm going to put my opinions out there. If a character I liked was gone for multiple episodes, I'd probably miss them, yes, but at the same time I'd be willing to consider how their absence might benefit other characters. If someone like Flack was gone, I'd be interested to see if Angell would have a larger role in the episodes. If Danny were gone, I'd hope that Hawkes would get some more screentime, which he has in the past few episodes without a lot of Danny-time. If Mac was gone, I'd be interested to see Stella in charge, etc.

My concern regarding Anna's pregnancy and it's effect on the show relates more to whether the lack of D/L interaction has been forced into the script because of the situation or if it was going to happen anyway. I think the lack of the ubiquitous shippy moment between this pair in each and every episode has been an improvement, and I don't like the thought that, once Anna's maternity leave is over, things will go right back to the way they were when I thought it was way too much. *shrug*

When it comes to Anna and her husband, I'm very glad that they are starting a family and I wish her nothing but the best. However, I don't know her and so I choose to concentrate on the show and not the actors' personal lives. There's been a definite change between the end of season two and what we've seen so far at the beginning of season 3. And I wonder how much of that had to do with the unavoidable fact that Anna's pregnancy will affect the show, versus how much of it was a conscious decision by the writers to move away from the relationship.

The fact that Peyton was introduced for the sole purpose of being Mac's love interest makes me think that the Danny/Lindsay thing was probably going to be shoved to the back burner anyway. Why have two major romantic relationships on the show? It just doesn't make logical sense to me. Add in the fact that Mac seems to have serious reservations about dating someone he works with, and I'm thinking maybe the writers have finally figured out what some of us have been thinking for a while--shipping is fun in fanfiction, but on the show it runs into trouble. I'm not the writers, I don't pretend to know their motives, but that's what I think.

Anyway, back to what you were saying, allie.

I don't need Danny and Flack to be in a scene in every show, and I've never implied that the D/L ship needs one--I only say that I don't think it's necessary. Watching last season, particularly toward the end, it seemed as though the writers thought they could make everyone love the idea of Danny/Lindsay if they put them in a scene together in every show, even when they weren't working together. Granted, these people will interact, but where are the scenes between Stella and Hawkes when they aren't working together, just talking over a case and getting a second opinion? Why not have Flack come over to help Stella with a scene reconstruction? I don't like Danny/Lindsay, but either way I just think the writers got a bit too involved with it way too soon.

I don't say I'll hate Danny/Lindsay for the rest of my life, but I seriously doubt that I'll ever like it. I never say never, because the writers and actors might pull something good out of the crack of their ass and make it work, but I'm inclined to doubt it. That doesn't mean that I expect everyone to agree with me, or to feel the way I do. I also don't think it means I should avoid expressing my opinions because other people don't like them. *shrug*

You didn't offend me, that's for sure, but if I might say something that I've noticed multiple times and feel I need to say: I don't have a problem with people expressing their opinions when they differ from my own. In fact, I encourage it because I like a good discussion. It's when people start out acting as though they are putting themselves in front of a firing squad and are somehow making a huge statement or taking some big risk that it gets under my skin a bit. We can all express our opinions on this board. I know that there are people who like Danny/Lindsay, and I'm not going to attack anybody who likes them. I might disagree with an opinion, but I'm not going to jump on that person for what they think. I know that you don't like Danny/Flack, but I don't take that as a personal insult against me. All that says to me is that we see things differently. Having a difference of opinion doesn't make me hate anybody.

Edit: I still haven't rewatched this week's episode, but I was really glad that Angell was back. I loved her in "People With Money," and I hate that she hasn't had a lot of interaction with people other than Mac since then. I love the idea of her with Danny or Hawkes, and a few more scenes would be nice because then I'd have a better idea of how they interact. We know very little about her at this point, and I want to be able to write fanfiction that's in-character.

 

[Radical618]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

wow Fay it's going to be hard to compete with that post... :lol: all very good though.. applause.

I'm just going to post to the Lack of DL / Anna's pregnancy issue. I think that despite the pregnancy, there was going to be an absence. After "Love Runs Cold" I think they needed a bit of distance from each other, so I think the lack of interaction was present.

As for them being in every scene, as much as I love them, that would be a little too much. Not even a little a lot too much. Too much of anyone would be too much. And as for the walking over and talking to eachother while on different cases, I like that interaction with any of the characters- like in LOLD (yes this is DL I know but it's all I got) When she talks to him about having phone sex and he helps her with figuring even a little bit more of the case out. I love when any members of the team does that- it makes you really believe these guys are genuine with each other.

Basically being redundant... and re-enforcing what Fay said.. in a certain light.

 

[dutch_treat]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

I'm not gonna repeat myself as to why I like D/L and why I dislike or like other ships (Faylinn we do seem to agree on the idea of Hawkes/Angell ).

I do think it's a bit strange too that a lot of D/L shippers somehow get the feeling that they should be ashamed of their taste or should be apologising for it. You should never be afraid to expres your own opinion .

But on the other hand I can imagine though that it sometimes feels a bit intimidating to post on the NY board. It is everybody's right to speak their mind about something they feel strongly about. But it is frustrating when you are enthusiastic because of something that happened on the show and you write about that and are immediately contradicted by A LOT of people. That to some might feel, as Faylinn stated, to be in front of a firing squad .

And I don't mind being contradicted by others but I do mind when people are not giving their opinion but are stating things as if they are fact (and I've seen that happen a few times). And I'm sure it's mostly in 'the heat of the moment' but it is kinda hard to have a discussion with people who are not saying: "I don't like Lindsay/DL because....", but "Lindsay/DL is/are....". It'll end up in a very childish is/is not discussion and I think we must all do our best to avoid that.

It does still, however, seem a bit odd that D/L (imo) is one of the few ships that is always critised (even when they're not in an ep). I don't like Mac/Peyton and I don't think that I'm the only one, but after already two ep's starting and ending with them together, there isn't much discussion about that .

I hope that their relationship is not being 'shoved in' to replace D/L, because I feel uncomfortable watching Mac with her. For me (but I like on sreen romance) these two relations can co exist however.

 

[kinkapoodles]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

I have to agree, I believe Fay said it all.

I have to agree with Fay and say that I don't think the interaction between Danny and Lindsay is "gross". I don't think anybody has ever said that. I don't have a problem with their working relationship. I just don't see anything romantic between them but I respect those who do see something. Just as I see something between Danny and Flack. I don't expect others to see it too.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I kinda like the Danny/Angell pairing. I have no idea why. I just thought they were cute together in People With Money. I saw more of a spark between them than I did Hawkes/Angell. Of course, this is from the person who can't see Danny with anybody but Flack.

After "Love Runs Cold" I think they needed a bit of distance from each other, so I think the lack of interaction was present.

I totally agree. After that, they definately needed a bit of distance and we fans (for or against DL) needed a break too.

As for how Anna's pregnancy will affect the show and DL, I think all the DL fans expect her to be gone for a while. I'm sure she'll be back. I'm not sure if there would have been an abscence if Anna wasn't pregnant or if it was already planned. If her secret is as bad as they are making it out to be, an abscence would be expected. I can see her going back to Montana to straighten things out.

Who knows, maybe after this secret comes out I will understand why Lindsay's always acted the way she does and maybe I will see her differently. Maybe DL won't be so bad once her secret is out. But I'm not holding my breath.

Also, it seems they added Peyton as Mac's love interest at the last minute so that got me thinking that maybe the lack of DL does have something to do with Mac/Peyton. Maybe they backed off the DL stuff to focus on Mac. Maybe they always intended to back off DL until Lindsay's secret is revealed or maybe Anna's pregnancy forced a change.

I just want Lindsay to be out of Danny's shadow and be her own person before they try to pair them up on the show. It's only the 3rd season, there's no need to rush. With Mac's romance and the talk of Stella maybe having a romance with someone we know, could this be the end of DL?

Before the DL fans turn on me, I'm only asking because it seems odd that they would have 2 or possibly 3 office romances on the show. You know TPTB, anything can happen.

As for Mac/Peyton, I don't know why but their relationship doesn't bother me. I know she was brought in at the last minute but I don't feel she was forced on us. Maybe it's because I'm just glad Mac is finally getting some. :devil: It's nice to see that he has a private life and doesn't live in his office.

 

[dutch_treat]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

1CSIMfan said:
...and the talk of Stella maybe having a romance with someone we know, could this be the end of DL?
...
Before the DL fans turn on me, I'm only asking because it seems odd that they would have 2 or possibly 3 office romances on the show. You know TPTB, anything can happen...

What's this about Stella having a relation? And with someone we know . Please tell.

And if that's the fact it will indeed be a bit much to have so much office romance. But love can be infectious . At least it will force TPTB to spread the attention and not focus so/too much on the same couple every week .

 

[Radical618]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Didn't know about the Stella romance thing... (very interesting thanks!)

I still don't think this DL thing is over yet. Maybe it's coming to a close, maybe it's just begining, who knows right? Either way, there's something, (forced or not) and like I said, I think there's more. I don't think TPTB would build us up last season and then drop it like that (Love Runs Cold). Maybe it'll end progressivly, maybe it'll last. Did they introduce DL too soon? Perhaps. Did they introduce DL too soon and shove it in our face too fast? Many would agree, many would disagree.

In my personal opinion, Mac/Peyton was shoved into our face too fast. The first scene of season 3 they were in bed together. Yea, I'm glad Mac's getting some too.. but I still think that was too fast.

And as for a few couples in the lab, I think it's plausible for this team. They all seem to have a very natural chemistry with one another. Honestly, I think anyone with anyone would be a fantastic ship.. (even those I don't ship I think would be good if they presented them self on the show). That's just me though.

And I keep going... with Lindsay's secret soming out, I think it will have a positive affect on the team and Lindsay herself. I think it might give her something that we might not be quite used to yet- independence. Maybe after the secret is announced she'll get with Danny, but I still think she'll be more of her own person.

I think I might be done now... sorry if I was repetative again, I forget what I write a lot of the time..

 

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

And as for the walking over and talking to each other while on different cases, I like that interaction with any of the characters- like in LOLD (yes this is DL I know but it's all I got) When she talks to him about having phone sex and he helps her with figuring even a little bit more of the case out. I love when any members of the team does that- it makes you really believe these guys are genuine with each other.

The fact that we only seem to see that with Danny and Lindsay is the thing that bothers me. It's not done to show the team members interacting, it's done to make sure the viewers see these two interacting. That's what I don't like. I wouldn't have a problem with them putting Danny and Lindsay in scenes when they aren't working together if they also did it with the other characters as well. I should have been more specific.

But it is frustrating when you are enthusiastic because of something that happened on the show and you write about that and are immediately contradicted by A LOT of people. That to some might feel, as Faylinn stated, to be in front of a firing squad.

Well, that's true enough, but if very few people who like something (D/L is only one example, of course) post, then their opinion is automatically going to be in the minority. *shrug*

I don't mind being contradicted by others but I do mind when people are not giving their opinion but are stating things as if they are fact (and I've seen that happen a few times)...it is kinda hard to have a discussion with people who are not saying: "I don't like Lindsay/DL because....", but "Lindsay/DL is/are....". It'll end up in a very childish is/is not discussion and I think we must all do our best to avoid that.

I see what you mean, but at the same time this is how I look at it: if I'm reading a message board, member X might say "Danny/Lindsay has no chemistry," and I'm sure I myself have said something similar before, but I know that it's still an opinion. Someone can tell me all day long that "slash is wrong," and I wouldn't read it as anything more than an opinion. I know that might seem more obvious, but it boils down to the same thing. Discussions only get childish if we let them, and sometimes reacting strongly to a an opinion stated as a fact can make things worse. *shrug* That's not saying it's correct to say "Danny/Lindsay is _____," but I think we all need to make sure we realize that the person is stating their opinion even if it's done in that way...

It does still, however, seem a bit odd that D/L (imo) is one of the few ships that is always critised (even when they're not in an ep). I don't like Mac/Peyton and I don't think that I'm the only one, but after already two ep's starting and ending with them together, there isn't much discussion about that.

Danny/Lindsay is arguably the most love-it-or-hate-it ship on the show. It's the same as if a person really disliked Detective Angell and mentioned being glad that she wasn't in an episode because they don't like her. *shrug* The grading threads are really the only ones where something like this is relevant since the rest are independent of the show schedule and I could bring up this week's episode or an episode from season 1 and it doesn't matter. As for the grading thread, it really just depends on who's talking. I don't think people randomly bring up Danny/Lindsay or Lindsay herself, but I do think they'll mention it in the context of the episode being discussed if they think it's relevant. Sometimes it's hard to hear things against a character or ship we love, but that's the risk we take when we join a message board.

As for Mac/Peyton, I think people talk about them less because she's only been on a few episodes, she's not a main cast member, etc. If the writers continued to do the relationship as they have so far, making it a major part of the episode when she's on, I'll lose favor with the pairing. For now, though, I can appreciate that it gives a bit of depth to Mac's character to be with Peyton since he's been largely underdeveloped so far. If we were meant to get to know Peyton on her own, I'd be disappointed. But the character's purpose is to be the love interest with only a marginal role on the show, she's not meant to be a major character that the viewers are supposed to get to know. And that's a lot of my problem with the Danny/Lindsay relationship. Yes, I think the two of them have little-to-no genuine romantic chemistry, but in the end I don't think the pairing is doing either of them any favors. *shrug*

For me (but I like on sreen romance) these two relations can co exist however.

If this show were like Grey's Anatomy or something similar, I'd agree with you. But considering the way that the show deals with romance (meaning that it grabs onto it like a dog with a chew toy and doesn't let go), having a long-term relationship as a main part of the show would be bad enough, but two would probably be enough to send me (and a lot of other fans) reaching for the remote control.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I kinda like the Danny/Angell pairing. I have no idea why. I just thought they were cute together in People With Money. I saw more of a spark between them than I did Hawkes/Angell.

Nope, I like it too. Jennifer is the kind of woman I'd see Danny going for. She's a fun character and I hope we see more of her.

Who knows, maybe after this secret comes out I will understand why Lindsay's always acted the way she does and maybe I will see her differently. Maybe DL won't be so bad once her secret is out. But I'm not holding my breath.

No, I'm not either. I shouldn't have to sit there going 'oh, in a few months I'll know why she acted like that.' I want to like the characters now, I don't want to wait months before I can say whether or not I liked how a scene played out. *shrug* If I want to wait months (or longer) to find out what's going on with a character, I'll turn on Lost instead.

With Mac's romance and the talk of Stella maybe having a romance with someone we know, could this be the end of DL?

What's this about Stella having a relation? And with someone we know. Please tell.

There are rumors at this point that Stella might have a relationship and that it might be someone we know. There's no definite information, though, so it's still speculation at this point. If it does, in fact, happen, my thought is that it could be a main character, it could be someone we meet this season, etc. I'm interested to see if it happens, but I'm not holding my breath on this either. I believe it was a very vague 'maybe' when it was mentioned initially. So we'll see.

And if that's the fact it will indeed be a bit much to have so much office romance. But love can be infectious. At least it will force TPTB to spread the attention and not focus so/too much on the same couple every week.

Honestly, I rather the writers concentrate on spreading the focus to all of the characters and the cases instead of hopping from one romance to another. To judge by the episodes we've seen so far, if romance is a main part of an episode, the cases suffer for it. The show is meant to revolve around forensic science, and they haven't convinced me that they can do both and do them both well.

I don't think TPTB would build us up last season and then drop it like that (Love Runs Cold). Maybe it'll end progressivly, maybe it'll last.

I think it's entirely possible that the writers would do that, actually. They can change their minds, there can be decisions made that the fans don't know about, etc. I wouldn't say it's impossible that the Danny/Lindsay thing is over, but I wouldn't say it definitely is either. *shrug* We'll see.

And I keep going... with Lindsay's secret soming out, I think it will have a positive affect on the team and Lindsay herself. I think it might give her something that we might not be quite used to yet- independence. Maybe after the secret is announced she'll get with Danny, but I still think she'll be more of her own person.

Time will tell on that one. I think the main thing with the 'secret' is that it give Lindsay's character some depth. I don't think she should settle her demons and then suddenly hook up with Danny--it just doesn't make sense. If she's resisted the relationship so far, after being in NY more than a year, I don't see why she'd get over the problem and suddenly jump back into whatever the writers think they were doing with D/L. The whole thing seems like one big clusterdoodle (to use someone else's term ) as far as I'm concerned, and I'd really rather see the show concentrate on the cases and leave the shipping to the fans.

And with that, I think I'm done. (This post has taken me forever to write! :lol

 

[JDonne]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

I think I’ll jump into this discussion and say just a few things, a few meaning lots and lots. As far as feeling as though you are in front of a firing squad because your beliefs may be in the minority, well if you choose to see persecution then you will find persecution in someone’s every phrase, not because it is actually there, but because you have taken statements about fictional characters as a personal attack against your tastes. I happen to think the widespread negativity directed towards D/L is striking and worthy of deeper discussion by the fans and notice by the writers and show runners, in fact I hope that is why they have backed off, whether or not it is permanent no one can really say, though I for one think we could do without it. Disliking D/L has nothing to do with feeling a certain way about those that enjoy the pairing and though I am baffled by what it is others see on screen between the two, I certainly have not attempted to strip away their right to enjoy it anymore than I expect them to deny me the right to bemoan the existence of anything on the show that I find atrocious. I think problems arise when people say they don’t like D/L because for some reason this gets personal, I have yet to see those that enjoy Mac and Peyton up in arms towards those that don’t. Certainly, it must be tiresome to see your opinion in the minority and challenged by those that disagree, but opposing viewpoints are one of the cornerstones of life and a message board is life concentrated.

As far as the phrasing of why someone may not like a particular ship, and this is where my inner teacher and English degree holder steps in, whether you say I don’t like D/L because I find the writers constant focus and forced interaction tiresome and furthermore the actors lack any discernable chemistry or; the D/L pairing is tiresome and the actors lack discernable chemistry the writers should stop their incessant focus and move onto greener pastures. Both statements are an opinion and can be countered or agreed with as such. Opinions are inherently understood in writing, they don’t need to be declared as opinions or have a disclaimer attached. It is only when people begin complaining about other peoples opinions that the discussion becomes childish. It is when people declare their ship is being persecuted that discussion ceases because frankly people get tired of seeing their words taken as attacks on someone’s mother rather than a condemnation of the show’s direction and the writing. I don’t really understand what disliking a ship or for that matter any aspect of a show has to do with fans of that ship or aspect of the show, it is preference nothing more nothing less. I can’t stand Dickens, I know people that love Dickens, it’s not personal, even if they are crazy and lacking true intellect and taste. I kid!

When it comes to shipping I can see justification for almost any ship, not however Danny/Lindsay or Flack/Lindsay. The reasons for the former can be found above and in any number of places on the NY board I’m sure, as for the latter, I simply don’t think it has any onscreen basis. Flack spent much of season 2 ignoring Lindsay’s existence and then he utters one line laced with snark and suddenly love is in bloom – I just don’t get it. However, I won’t focus on what I don’t enjoy instead I’ll focus on what I do.

I happen to both enjoy Mac/Peyton and at the same time find their interactions difficult to watch, because I feel like an intruder on their personal moments. My reaction to them makes me say bravo and brava to their portrayers, excellent job conveying believable intimacy on screen, that watching them is like watching two actual lovers, there is no trace of Gary Sinise or Claire Forlani when they are together, that is talent and more importantly that is chemistry. They are engaged and focused on one another and it is a beautiful thing even if I feel as though I’ve violated their privacy, what they have is so adult and I respect the writers for taking that route. I respect the writers for making their issues seem real and viable, for being true to Mac as we have come to know him, they haven’t altered him they have expanded upon him while keeping the core that we have come to know.

Danny/Aiden was always an incredibly viable ship to me and when people describe their interactions as sibling-like, I will admit to cocking my head to one side in puzzlement. I have two brothers and if they looked me up and down or laced our conversation with occasional sexual innuendo, well I’d probably beat the crap out of them and then tell my father and husband. I banter with my brothers all the time, but I spent more time teasing them about their virility and conquests than telling them I was out of their league. Danny and Aiden’s dialogue never fell into the brother/sister ideal, it was more along the lines of two attractive co-workers flirting up a storm, recognizing and acknowledging the heat between them, and maintaining a friendship that over time could have become something more. I enjoyed the two of them and my heart ached for the DnA shippers when Aiden was brutally murdered.

Danny/Stella have such incredible chemistry that I’d be up for this pairing any day of the week. Most of my favorite season one episodes involve Stella and Danny working together. The energy they bring when they are onscreen together is unfettered; watching them crash into one another would be incredibly sexy with Stella no doubt leading the way. I love watching the two of them unleash together on suspects, closing in on the bad guy, invading the perpetrators space - they would be staggering together.

Mac and Lindsay would have been a good thing and truthfully their scenes have been the ones where I tolerate Lindsay best and I would even go so far as to say that for one brief moment in time standing their in Mac’s presence she was cute. I still think the writers were up in the air about how to pair Lindsay, sad that they ever felt they needed to, but I think Mac was in the running. When Lindsay discovered Mac’s little secret could it have been to impress Danny, well I suppose, but it is a more intriguing possibility she did it because Mac fascinates her. Alas, it seems this will never be, but Peyton is an excellent addition so no real loss other than the disappearance of Danny’s essence and bite.

Then there is of course the ship that in my heart will never have an equal, Danny and Flack, it was my first ship and I’ve been a fan since season 1. I can’t imagine that I could add anymore outside of what has already been said about these two, but I do love to watch Flack stare, drinking Danny in with his eyes, his omnipresent smile when Danny is near, the Hospital scene in RSRD, On the Job, and so many other moments. One of the greatest things about Danny and Flack is that the fans of the ship do them so much justice with their fiction, one sexy man is fantastic, but two sexy men is mind blowing, after all some of the best love affairs rise up between the best of friends.


I’ll stop, but I could add in statements about Aiden/Flack, Danny/Maka, Mac/Jane, and the ship that is currently damn high on my wish list Stella/Sid!

 

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Ah, lovely post JDonne, I'm glad to see you weighing in on the various ships for NY.

You make an excellent point about Mac/Peyton--it is, indeed, a very adult relationship, and is very believable in both its good moments as well as its bad. When they are having a more intimate scene, you can't help feeling like you're spying on them, and when they disagree it's done in a mature manner. Yes, Peyton was understandably upset with Mac in "Murder Sings the Blues," but the way she confronted him was superbly done, I think. I'd hate for the relationship to become too big a part of the show, but I think it's definitely a better addition to the show than the D/L stuff last season was.

I never really shipped Danny and Aiden, but I could definitely see chemistry there. It's the kind of pairing that I could see remaining as nothing more than friends or alternately becoming a really strong romantic relationship. It's something that I've only recently considered, to be honest, but the points you make say more than I could, so I'll leave it at that. I only wish I'd gotten into shipping before Aiden left the show.

Danny/Stella interaction was definitely great in season 1 especially. Danny lost some of his bite in S2, and particularly so far in S3, and that's a sad thing. I've never been a big fan of the pairing, but if I read a good fic I'm sure I'd have no trouble picturing it. If the writers ever did it on the show, though, I'd hope for them to do something that would come across better than D/L with Stella substituted for Lindsay, quite frankly. I love Danny, but I don't have a whole lot of faith in canon relationships that involve him for obvious reasons.

Mac/Lindsay was a pairing that I could have seen as well, because the writers did better with Lindsay's interaction here than with other characters, I think. Or maybe it had a lot to do with Gary's acting. It would have been an interesting storyline if done correctly...

I'm glad to hear that you still like Danny/Flack. Your fanfiction was some of the first that I read. I'm glad you decided to repost some of it.

I don't know how I missed the possibility with these two in season 1, but I think it has a lot to do with the way I watch television, which has changed considerably since I started to discuss shows on this site (mainly CSI:NY, of course, but also others like "Criminal Minds" over in the General TV and Media forum). I'm much more likely to see subtle interaction between characters now, and I think that's the key--the stuff between Danny and Flack is subtle and believable, and I love it. It's not about 'hey, here's a character, you like them.' Instead, it's a deep and powerful friendship that could slowly evolve into more over time. I like that the interaction is done in a way that seems to put us right at a pivotal moment in their relationship, when things are going beyond friendship. *sigh* I just love this pairing, can't you tell? :lol: I'm so glad that there are such great writers out there to give us excellent fanfiction, and I love that there are shippers on this site that like to discuss the ship as much as I do.

As for your last sentence, JDonne, I have to point out Stella/Sid. :lol: I don't know what it is, but there's something that draws me into that pairing.

 

[JDonne]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Faylinn said:

You make an excellent point about Mac/Peyton--it is, indeed, a very adult relationship, and is very believable in both its good moments as well as its bad. When they are having a more intimate scene, you can't help feeling like you're spying on them, and when they disagree it's done in a mature manner. Yes, Peyton was understandably upset with Mac in "Murder Sings the Blues," but the way she confronted him was superbly done, I think. I'd hate for the relationship to become too big a part of the show, but I think it's definitely a better addition to the show than the D/L stuff last season was.

I agree, the relationships no matter the pairing, should never dominate a show that is built upon crime and the nature of humanity. If that is what people want and that is what keeps them around then I would suggest Grey’s Anatomy or ER, which are nothing more than melodramas set in hospitals. Mac/Peyton hasn’t crossed the line into badly written soap opera territory, but if they ever do I will condemn they just as ferociously as I condemn Danny/Lindsay. However, at least Sinese and Forlani have chemistry and in the end that may make any missteps in their romantic pairing a bit more tolerable.

I only wish I'd gotten into shipping before Aiden left the show.

There is still time, get to it, the season 1 DVD’s are a font of Danny/Aiden happiness, spend a day with them, watching the comfort level grow, watching their give and take, watching their clever back and forth.

Danny/Stella interaction was definitely great in season 1 especially. Danny lost some of his bite in S2, and particularly so far in S3, and that's a sad thing. I've never been a big fan of the pairing, but if I read a good fic I'm sure I'd have no trouble picturing it. If the writers ever did it on the show, though, I'd hope for them to do something that would come across better than D/L with Stella substituted for Lindsay, quite frankly. I love Danny, but I don't have a whole lot of faith in canon relationships that involve him for obvious reasons.

Danny/Stella wasn’t something I saw immediately, in fact, it didn’t dawn on me until I watched season1 on DVD and then some small moments in season 2 made it real for me. I think the nature of the characters is what makes them a possibility. They are both incredibly combustible by nature. The types of people that fight to the death, yet never say die where justice is concerned. They shared some good moments in Creatures of the Night (if that was the rape case). I can understand your lack of faith when it comes to Danny pairings.

There is something in his nature that makes him seemingly elusive to all but a few, he is such a maverick and such a powerful force that it takes someone of great character and great fortitude to handle him. Flack has that great character that ability to indulge Danny, the ability to love him unguardedly, Maka had that no nonsense way with Danny, she kept him moving, on his feet and made sure he knew who was in control and Stella for me sits in between Flack and Maka, Lindsay, well she’s not even in their league.

Mac/Lindsay was a pairing that I could have seen as well, because the writers did better with Lindsay's interaction here than with other characters, I think. Or maybe it had a lot to do with Gary's acting. It would have been an interesting storyline if done correctly...

Mac/Lindsay would have been interesting, if handled correctly, though I can’t imagine it ever being as shockingly mishandled as Danny/Lindsay that would take a level of ineptitude heretofore unknown on television. Nonetheless, like you I think some of that believability is owed to the talent of Sinese, he’s a powerhouse when he wants to be. Even taking that into consideration I could have and would have been interested to see how the writers handled pairing two rigid characters and watching them break down one another’s boundaries and emotional issues.

I'm glad to hear that you still like Danny/Flack. Your fanfiction was some of the first that I read. I'm glad you decided to repost some of it.

I could never forsake my boys! They are so delicious that long after the show has gone off the air I’m sure I’ll be at the farmer’s market buying cucumbers and Danny and Flack will race through my mind. It doesn’t have to be cucumbers I imagine, maybe squash or zucchini, I think you get the idea. Some of the pieces are back up, the rest of the old will follow, and the new will be updated, I’ve just been lazy, justifiably lazy, and the new is intricate.

I'm much more likely to see subtle interaction between characters now, and I think that's the key--the stuff between Danny and Flack is subtle and believable, and I love it.

I think you used the keyword – subtle. When I studied for my undergraduate degree, one of the first lessons I learned was that art is in the subtleties. There is the big picture, which is obvious to everyone, but the essence and the heart of the matter is where you need to dig deeper, look beyond the obvious, beyond what the artist tries to drill in your brain, you need to open your mind to the possibility that is being presented, because at some point obvious becomes ordinary and ordinary becomes forgettable. Once you do that you see the real intellect behind a piece rather than the elementary, it is the difference for me between D/L and D/F. Danny and Lindsay was a constant bombardment, people telling you what you should see and what you should feel, there was and is not art in the pairing, whereas D/F is there but it exists in the subtleties, it exists in the quiet, it exists in brief moments in time that resonate. D/F was always sexy but it became beautiful when Danny found himself drowning in On the Job and he turned to Flack, and Flack took the brunt of Danny’s emotional upheaval and bore it with grace, compassion. Those understanding blue eyes, leaning across the table trying to will some of his own calm into Danny and in that moment without a single word you knew no matter the outcome Flack would be there to lift Danny up – I love them!

As for your last sentence, JDonne, I have to point out Stella/Sid. :lol: I don't know what it is, but there's something that draws me into that pairing.

I loved Stella an Sid from the moment he flirted with her. Couple that with Robert Joy being possibly the only thing the show runners got right in season 2 and you have the makings of greatness. Not to mention how outside of the box would the pairing be.

 

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

There is still time, get to it, the season 1 DVD’s are a font of Danny/Aiden happiness, spend a day with them, watching the comfort level grow, watching their give and take, watching their clever back and forth.

Very true, very true. It would be nice if I didn't know she died, though. There's still infinite possibilities for fics to read and write (if the mood strikes me ), but it's kind of sad to know that it's going to end that way. But then, I guess you could also say most pairings have no clue how they'll end up, so that adds an extra point of interest to creating fics, knowing what happens in the end.

Danny/Stella wasn’t something I saw immediately, in fact, it didn’t dawn on me until I watched season1 on DVD and then some small moments in season 2 made it real for me. I think the nature of the characters is what makes them a possibility. They are both incredibly combustible by nature. The types of people that fight to the death, yet never say die where justice is concerned. They shared some good moments in Creatures of the Night (if that was the rape case).

Good points. Two passionate, hard-headed people with some great sexual tension if you're looking at it right. Hawt.

There is something in his nature that makes him seemingly elusive to all but a few, he is such a maverick and such a powerful force that it takes someone of great character and great fortitude to handle him.

Yes, exactly! There's definitely something about him that makes him hard to grasp, hard to understand--and hard to hold on to. It's part of his attraction, definitely. I've seen some excellently-written fiction that deals with that strange allure that Danny has. Flack can't seem to identify just what it is or why he hangs around through some of Danny's biggest clusterfucks, but in the end he isn't going anywhere. Very powerful stuff, I like it. I also like that Danny thinks he's so unworthy of that kind of love and attention. It provides for a lot of amazing interaction in the hands of the right authors.

Even taking that into consideration I could have and would have been interested to see how the writers handled pairing two rigid characters and watching them break down one another’s boundaries and emotional issues.

So would I. It would have been something more intriguing than OMG-the-new-girl-is-here-and-the-resident-bad-boy-is-going-to-fall-in-luv-with-her. The writers for shows like this need to let the cogs turn in their brain and come up with some really interesting stuff. It doesn't seem fair to spend so much time and effort developing cases (because I'll admit that even the bad ones require some thought and research), and then when it comes to the characters' relationships, cliches are acceptable.

I could never forsake my boys! They are so delicious that long after the show has gone off the air I’m sure I’ll be at the farmer’s market buying cucumbers and Danny and Flack will race through my mind. It doesn’t have to be cucumbers I imagine, maybe squash or zucchini, I think you get the idea. Some of the pieces are back up, the rest of the old will follow, and the new will be updated, I’ve just been lazy, justifiably lazy, and the new is intricate.

*rubs hands together* Ooh, good news--not you at the market with a wicked smile on your face as you squeeze cucumbers experimentally (what a mental image that makes ), but that you're going to get the other stories back up and write more. Danny/Flack can never have too much fanfic.

There is the big picture, which is obvious to everyone, but the essence and the heart of the matter is where you need to dig deeper, look beyond the obvious, beyond what the artist tries to drill in your brain, you need to open your mind to the possibility that is being presented, because at some point obvious becomes ordinary and ordinary becomes forgettable. Once you do that you see the real intellect behind a piece rather than the elementary, it is the difference for me between D/L and D/F.

Yes, very much so. I think the fact that I started to look at the show more closely is the reason I ended up with D/F instead of D/L. I never considered D/L a ship in the first place before coming on this site (I came a bit into S2)--I saw their interaction as coworkers. Hell, what some people call 'flirting' from "Zoo York" I thought of as Danny being testy because Lindsay took Aiden's job. I expected more of a reaction from him. I don't dislike Lindsay for 'replacing' Aiden, but I can't deny that she filled the spot left open and I would have thought Aiden's colleagues would notice. In any case, when I started to look at the show more closely is when I saw the possibility for slash. I knew what slash was before, but I'd never given it serious thought. But something about D/F (from the characters to the scenes and that certain spark between them) caught me, and it makes something like 'hey, let's have Danny carry her! That'll show that he likes her!' look rather silly. If Danny liked her, I'd see it when he looked at her, but I don't. I do, however, see something in the way Don looks at Danny, and vice versa.

D/F is there but it exists in the subtleties, it exists in the quiet, it exists in brief moments in time that resonate.

Exactly. It's not about what the writers put into the script to happen between the characters, it's what happens on it's own, what grows organically from the interaction between these two people. One of the things that interests me about D/F is the idea that, on the surface, you can look at them and think, 'oh, those two are good friends,' but if you take a closer look, the rest comes into focus.

D/F was always sexy but it became beautiful when Danny found himself drowning in On the Job and he turned to Flack, and Flack took the brunt of Danny’s emotional upheaval and bore it with grace, compassion. Those understanding blue eyes, leaning across the table trying to will some of his own calm into Danny and in that moment without a single word you knew no matter the outcome Flack would be there to lift Danny up – I love them!

I loved that scene for them. When Mac gave Danny the card for the lawyer (?) and told him he needed to talk to someone, I noticed that Danny glanced up at him. And who does Danny call? Flack. Of course. It occurred to me that Don probably shouldn't have been talking to Danny in the first place, since he was working the case (and Mac was adamant that Aiden not talk to him), but he clearly took the risk to go see him. When Don was trying to reason with Danny, it was obvious that he knew it was a losing battle, but he tried anyway. The way that Danny said he wanted someone to tell him they had his back, and the way Don turned away, could say a thousand different things. I love the possibilities.

I loved Stella an Sid from the moment he flirted with her. Couple that with Robert Joy being possibly the only thing the show runners got right in season 2 and you have the makings of greatness. Not to mention how outside of the box would the pairing be.

Sid/Stella would be all kinds of fun. :lol: The two of them have great chemistry together.

As for season 2, I quite like Adam as well. No huge shipping possibilities there at this point (although I'm more likely to slash him with Danny or Mac than to put him in a het pairing so far ), but I still like the character. I hope they give him some more development.

 

[JDonne]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Faylinn said:
As for season 2, I quite like Adam as well. No huge shipping possibilities there at this point (although I'm more likely to slash him with Danny or Mac than to put him in a het pairing so far ), but I still like the character. I hope they give him some more development.

Yes, Adam as well - one of the good things about season 2, though I enjoyed Chad and his creepy Aiden obsession, I was in the minority. Adam, the actor that is, is half a hometown or home country boy, Ireland, plus he's geeky cute. He looks like he could explain which handheld gaming system was superior. I could see him developing a crush on Stella or even Danny, but I don't feel any mutual longing at this point. He exasperates Danny and that is cute to watch.

 

[bklynCSIfanatic]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

In regards to Danny, I feel he shares a natural chemical spark with Stella, Maka and Angel. I can see a chemically promising ship in either Stella, Maka or Angel. When Lindsay and Danny are pulled together in a scene, they just seem forced as if they have no grasp or real understanding of each other which makes those scenes ridiculous and faretched.

I hope the result of them in "Loves Run Cold" is the end of D/L and realization to the writers that chemistry can't be pressured. Chemistry happens naturally and it comes up on you when you weren't expecting it.

Now about Stella's possible romance with someone we know. Could it be Danny, Flack or Hawkes? Though still nothing has been confirmed yet.

 

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

JDonne, your comments on Adam are spot-on IMO. :lol:

I could see him developing a crush on Stella or even Danny, but I don't feel any mutual longing at this point. He exasperates Danny and that is cute to watch.

Yep, there isn't much more than potential at this point, but if they keep him around I could develop a preference for either Adam/Danny or Adam/Stella, like you say. I could also see Mac/Adam, because Adam has a certain nervousness and open admiration when it comes to Mac that is promising.

In regards to Danny, I feel he shares a natural chemical spark with Stella, Maka and Angel. I can see a chemically promising ship in either Stella, Maka or Angel. When Lindsay and Danny are pulled together in a scene, they just seem forced as if they have no grasp or real understanding of each other which makes those scenes ridiculous and faretched.

Very good point with the 'chemical spark' as you call it. Danny has chemistry with a lot of people, but I just don't feel it with Danny and Lindsay. The comment that they have no 'grasp or understanding' is how I feel as well. It's not just that they come from different backgrounds or anything like that, it's just that I don't see the connection there...

I hope the result of them in "Loves Run Cold" is the end of D/L and realization to the writers that chemistry can't be pressured. Chemistry happens naturally and it comes up on you when you weren't expecting it.

I hope so too. Season 2 had some moments that I know D/L shippers loved, but IMO the writers have hopefully realized that the ship isn't what they were probably going for. I wish that they'd introduced Lindsay and established her character on it's own and with the group before trying to form romantic links with anyone. The chemistry that develops might not be what they were anticipating, but it would have worked better, IMO. I saw the potential for Mac/Lindsay in S2, but the writers have basically ruined any possibility for that in the near future with the things that they've written.

The chemistry between Danny and Flack comes, I feel, from the actors themselves, and I've said that a hundred times before. :lol: The writers might have intended them to be friends, but the fact that they get along so well and are just magic on screen together is something that I don't think they could have planned. Yes, it's arguably the chemistry of two very good friends, but the D/F ship draws on the possibilities that it creates, regardless of where it goes on the show (although I expect it will stay firmly in the realm of just-friends ). Danny/Lindsay is something that, to me, was done with the best of intentions but just didn't work. The idea of the new girl and the guy-who-swears-he'll-never-fall-in-love getting together might work in a novel, or on paper for a tv show, but you can't anticipate how the actors will get along, how the scenes will turn out, etc. You can write romantic dialogue, suggestive scenes or whatever else, but you can't make the chemistry happen to truly pull it off.

Now about Stella's possible romance with someone we know. Could it be Danny, Flack or Hawkes? Though still nothing has been confirmed yet.

Well, I think the possibilities are endless, really. :lol: Personally, I hope it's Hammerback. He's someone that we 'know,' and the chemistry is definitely there. Who doesn't love Sid? :lol:

 

[SaraSidle_girl]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

well, is I gotta mention one ship that is sooo possible in NY its gonna be Smac (Stella/Mac) but I am a wierd girl and I always make up wierd and impossible couples by making my own crossovers

But Mac/Stella would be nice