CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Faylinn, May 23, 2009.

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  1. CSI Cupcake

    CSI Cupcake Police Officer

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    Not to worry. Breathing in and out on a regular basis;). Right now, I'm not sure I want to know anything ahead of time.:shifty: I'm debating going dark as spoilers start coming out because I really like all of the characters and actors and don't want to lose any of them. If someone leaves I would almost rather be surprised. Of course I say that now...:lol:
     
  2. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Exactly. Being fair, it only seemed like Lindsay decided she wanted a relationship toward the end of S3 (before then, it seemed to me like she'd be more than up for a non-emotional, no-strings-attached hookup). But aside from the fact that he was already friends with her when they started dating, I'm not seeing a difference in the way Danny treated Lindsay and the way he'd treat his other girlfriends. Or girlfriend singular - I think we only really got info about what his relationships like when he was dating that Cindy person. I love him, but he doesn't seem to take Lindsay seriously anymore than he took Cindy seriously. Both were just there for a good time. It's why he sounds so insincere in Season 5 with all the "I love yous". I don't think even Lindsay actually believes him when he says it.

    Both were equally culpable to me in that fight, and it's a large part of the reason I just don't see these two working as a couple. Danny never took Lindsay seriously, and Lindsay never bothered to help him emotionally/reach out to him when he was grieving. I think she wanted to - I honestly think that if Danny had come to her, she would have done what she could, because I saw her sending Flack after him as her feeling she was doing what she could. But she just sat waiting for him to come to her, even as she watched him pull away. So she got hurt, but it was in large part her fault, and I think she knew it (that's why she said she was mad at herself). That RND fight encompassed everything that was wrong with them as a couple. I liked it, but that's the truth of it.

    Yeah, not getting married would probably have been the healthiest thing they could've done in S5 - of course, they didn't do it. They do have huge, huge problems...I can see how they might not seem insurmountable, because they do talk fine and play off of each other well when they're not touching on anything emotional or relationship-y. But D/L has been a deal-breaker for me from Zoo York, although I should mention that Zoo York wasn't the first episode I'd seen them in. It was a mess from the start. Danny was never even strongly interested in her until she turned him down in S3, and it was clear from her first episode that Lindsay was an emotional cripple even at her best. She has no business being in a relationship with the most emotional character on the show. Heck, I think she knew it. I think that's why she kept pushing away from anything "emotionally-related" when it came to Danny, at least until he trailed her to Montana.

    It was clear from the start that D/L was going to crash and burn the way it did in RND. I love them when they're just being friends, I think they work great that way. But I hate what they bring out in each other as a couple. Lindsay wavers between looking self-centered and almost pathetically-clingy, and Danny looks shallow to the point of jerk-ishness.

    I don't know, though, if these issues would stay so insurmountable if we actually saw them deal with said issues, though, I'll admit that. If Danny actually does learn to see Lindsay as more than a random good time, or if Lindsay is forced to get over her emotional-cripple-ness and actually be there for Danny - no pushing away, no him running away, if they're just forced to deal with something together. Like, I dunno, something happening to Lucy. But just the way things are now, I don't see it ever getting to that point.

    ETA: Sorry, I missed some things in your post, CSI_Cupcake!

    LOL, the whole "We were on a break" thing. I actually found Ross really hilarious, it was Rachel who tended to be an irritant sometimes. It just seemed like the only times she ever decided she wasn't over Ross was just when he was about to move on and be happy-ish with someone else. And then once those chances were blown for him, she'd suddenly decide that she actually was over him.

    I don't know, there's a lot of stuff there that seems almost to be almost pointless. I guess I can understand about needing to write about filler-moments, but it's just irritating when you're looking for a good Lindsay character-driven fic and all you can find is endless DL fluff.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2009
  3. Miss Doolittle

    Miss Doolittle Dead on Arrival

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    Let me try. :)

    1.

    Lindsay: 86 pages
    Danny: 93 pages
    ----------
    DL: 77 pages
    DL/Lindsay -> 90%
    DL/Danny -> 83%
    ----------

    2.

    Mac: 43 pages
    Stella: 44 pages
    ----------
    SM: 31 pages
    MS/Mac -> 72%
    MS/Stella -> 70%
    ----------

    3.

    Stella: 44 pages
    Flack: 45 pages
    ----------
    SF: 10 pages
    SF/Stella -> 22%
    SF/Flack -> 22%
    ----------

    4.
    Flack: 45 pages
    Angell: 12 pages
    ----------
    FA: 11 pages
    FA/Angell -> 92% (FA's still quite recent, right?)


    It's interesting! :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2009
  4. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I know, right? :lol:Though I have to go with weird more than interesting...I've never quite broken it down this way before, but 90% of the Lindsay-fics on FF.Net also being D/L? That totally seems to go with what I've experienced.

    I imagine that FA is something that's fairly new, they only officially got together in S5. It's slightly reassuring that Flack is the probably the most likely character you can find character-driven fic about without having to worry about him being shipped with anyone. But the fact that Danny and Lindsay's pages still outstrip everyone else's is beyond eerie, although not unexpected.
     
  5. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    So much good stuff here (I'm loving reading this!) and not enough time to respond. So I'll keep it short-ish (for me, at least :lol: ).

    I don't think Lindsay's reaction to the diner scene in "Pay Up" was played up enough. Honestly, I didn't even make the connection until you guys posted about it here. There should have been a line or something more than a scruch-face from Belknap. A missed opportunity in my book, though maybe with the shootout in the bar, we'll get some references, since it's an even more obvious parallel.

    Lindsay's past was dropped like a hot potato after season three, to the point that there was an episode where she handled a shotgun and had no reaction in season four (maybe "Child's Play"?). I guess it got a brief reference in the Monologue of Doom in "Right Next Door," but I think it's been shied away from--again, because Belknap bungles the deep emotional stuff.

    Honestly, I don't think it's the women he doesn't take seriously--it's himself. Danny has massive self-esteem issues. I think he took Lindsay very seriously in season three when he was so concerned about her emotional well-being and wanting to connect with her. But I don't think Danny really thinks much of himself, which is why he gave it up for Rikki so easily. He'd fucked up big time in his book, and nothing could fix that...but at least sex could put a bandage on it. I don't know that Danny thinks he's worth much beyond that, something that was reinforced by Lindsay coming on to him after the trial and Rikki coming on to him in the wake of Ruben's death.

    I noticed him pulling away from Lindsay in season four as well. He didn't seem to know how to handle her very obvious, very public interest in him (the condom spray, the worry for him in "The Deep"). I don't know why he lost interest--maybe it was a self-esteem thing, or maybe he just didn't like her as much as he thought he did.

    I think he's too messed up to love anyone, really. His "I love yous" have come from fear and neediness--he doesn't want to lose her because she's carrying his baby. The moment Lindsay got pregnant, it all seemed to be about the baby for Danny. I don't think he does love her, though he probably thinks he does.

    Agreed--I think that highlighted exactly why they don't work as a couple. I blame her more than him, because I do think she had a responsibility to reach out to him if she truly cared about him and wanted to be with him. To not do that and then turn around and blame him for pulling away seemed cruel and vindictive. The only person she had to blame was herself.

    They've never really worked for me, either. They were okay in season two--her interest in him seemed to spark a response in him, but then when she did a complete 180 on him in season three, I ceased seeing them as a viable couple. I actually thought the hook up in "Snow Day" was kind of cute, but I think they should have been done in season four.

    I think she's mostly just self-centered, and he's just weak and needy.

    I think he needs to get a major dose of self-esteem and she needs to stop treating him like a yo-yo. They've kind of just shoved all of their problems in the proverbial closet, so they're okay now, if unnaturally so. I still think the whole wedding was more about Danny's low self-esteem and fear she'd leave him with the baby than it was about anything good and healthy.

    I hardly ever read fanfic, but I did take a look and notice the predominance of D/L fanfic. There's no doubt that the couple appears to a certain subset of fandom--apparently a lot of ones who are really into writing romantic fanfic.

    I admit, when I read fanfic, it's usually of the Danny/Flack variety--either as friends or a romantic couple, they have chemistry and communication, two things that are essential to being a convincing pair.
     
  6. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    It was dropped (and lol, I knew I remembered a scene from S4 where Lindsay held a gun or saw a scene that should've created flashbacks to her past); that's why I was kind of impressed to see it even hinted at again in Pay Up. I'm not sure how much Belknap's acting had to do with its dropping - things like Tanglewood and what the heck happened to Louie have also vanished from the storyline board, which is just irresponsible of the writers.

    See, I'm not so sure. I agree about the self-esteem issues, but things like ignoring your girlfriend's calls (in Jamalot) or dumping her because she asks you to come to her boss's kid's bar mitzvah - that reads more like he doesn't want to have any emotional ties to these girls. Which, hey, is his prerogative, but if that's the way he feels, he probably shouldn't be entering into relationships with these girls in the first place. At the very least, he should make it clear how things are going to stand between them from the very start.

    Yeah, but that's one of my hugest issues with D/L. He did seem like he was all about being there for Lindsay - once she'd already turned him down, and it was clear he wasn't going to get anything from her. I'm a little iffy on what his thought process was toward her in S2, but he seemed less...intense, if you will, about her then. And then once he had gotten something from her at the end of S3, he was even less interested than he'd been in S2.

    I agree about the sex-bandage in Rikki's case, and yeah, that does read like frighteningly-low self-esteem. I'm a little more hesitant in Lindsay's case, because I still feel like Danny's appearance in Montana was a turning point that Lindsay probably wouldn't have reached had Danny not gone there. The fact that he showed up when he didn't have to (had every reason not to, in fact) is what I think made her able to see herself in an emotional relationship with him, hence the come-on after the trial. Which makes me doubt that it was about a sex-bandage in that case, because if his self-esteem was so low, what was he doing in Montana? He had no reason to think Lindsay would want him there in a sexual way.

    Lol, I'm totally with the latter. I don't think he liked her as much as he thought he did, any more than he liked his other girlfriends once they actually reached that status of "girlfriend". Which, again, his prerogative, but with the signs he was sending in S3, he wasn't exactly shouting that he didn't want a real relationship with her. That's why I see this as his doing everything he could to end up on the pool table with Lindsay in Snow Day. And once he'd done that, there was just no attraction anymore. Which says something about Danny's character that I doubt the writers ever intended it to say (mostly because Danny is supposed to be a fairly nice guy). Hence, my hatred of D/L.

    Yeah, I don't think he loves her either, and this is largely why I can't see them ending in anything other than divorce. Preferably very soon. I mean, it's unfair to both of them - if Danny's not happy with her, then he's not happy with her, and he should let them both move on, Lucy notwithstanding. I mean, like her or not, Lindsay still deserves to be with someone who actually is going to care about her, not just who she's carrying in her stomach. Heck, Danny deserves the same thing.

    I agree that he's too messed up to love anyone, though I can't think what in his past would have messed him up that badly. I wish they'd bring the Tanglewood storyline back, I think it would actually explain a lot. But I think Lindsay knew all along that he never cared about her the way she did about him - he all but told her so in Right Next Door - and likewise didn't think he'd have any interest in a child she was carrying. I mean, it did become all about the baby for Danny in S5, but in general, children mean commitment, and his prior relationships - including the one he had with her - don't exactly make Danny the poster-child for commitment.

    I think what stops me from assigning full blame to Lindsay is that I can't quite make myself believe that Danny would've talked to her even if she had pressed him. I think she should've tried - nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? And I could be wrong. It's possible he would've opened up to even Mac and Stella, had either reached out. But he tends to shy away from emotional ties to his girlfriends, and what happened with Ruben was definitely emotional. Sharing it with Lindsay would've created an emotional tie, and Danny had already shown that he had little interest in doing that. She never had a chance getting through to him. He seems to talk about things with people he takes seriously - Flack, Mac, even Aiden to an extent (when she was alive). Lindsay has never made the cut.

    Yes! Snow Day was actually one of the first episodes I saw them in (before even Zoo York), and that's when I thought they were passably cute. When they just seemed to be a one-off thing. Both of them seemed okay with a casual flirtation in season 2, which even then left me chilled, because Danny already seemed to waver between flirtation, disinterest, and practically disrespect when it came to Lindsay. Even then it was clear he didn't take her seriously - I mean, I get hazing the newcomer, and practical jokes, okay. But trying to make her look bad in front of her boss on her first day? I don't know, it just seemed to cross a line. He's never done that to Adam, and I think he's hazed Adam more than he's hazed anyone else.

    Lindsay's 180 seemed to have everything to do with the relationship getting too "emotional" for her standards. I'm just thinking of Not What it Looks Like, when it seemed like she only let Danny hug her (and briefly, she clutched him back) because she was scared. And of course, first thing next episode we find out she'd stood him up on a date. Presumably the case in Montana was starting at about this time, so that couldn't have helped.

    Exactly. It's not a good enough reason to stay married, and I can't believe that Lindsay won't realize that soon enough, if Danny doesn't even sooner. Getting married was the last thing they should've done, and even then Lindsay seemed leery. I can't see her buying the fake I-love-yous for that long.

    Ooh! I've only ever dipped into the Grissom/Nick slash when it comes to CSI; but yeah, the DL there almost overflows to a creepy, frustrating extent. What's worse is that - perhaps unsurprisingly - Danny seems to have become the Edward Cullen of the CSI franchise as far as the crowd on FF.Net are concerned. Even worse is that it's hard to find good Lindsay fic because of it. Not necessarily impossible, but I do have to admit that I lean toward Flack/Lindsay or Hawkes/Lindsay fic if I'm reading CSINY fics. A lot of them by necessity deal with the problems I see in D/L, and thus you get a lot of good Lindsay development out of them. And well, it's not something I'd want to see in the show - if only because I doubt I could stomach the fallout drama from Lindsay dating either of Danny's best friends - but either of those relationships seem like they'd be a lot healthier than D/L.
     
  7. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Louie's fate might be unknown (though I think both Lenkov and Carmine have said he's alive), but we've gotten several references to him from Danny since then. Alluding to the past in Lindsay's case would require some nuanced acting from Belknap--something that just doesn't seem to be within her range.

    I remember him complaining about the bar mitzvah to Hawkes, but I think that's a kind of guy thing to do, and not all that weird. As for ignoring the call...I don't remember what he said when he did, but he and Hawkes were about to go question someone, weren't they? I don't know if those two little instances can speak too deeply to Danny's character. I've never really seen him as a player though.

    He definitely seemed less interested in her in season four, but I don't think it was about sleeping with her and being done. If it was just a one-night stand, I doubt he would have switched shifts with her in "Snow Day." I tend to think he saw something in her he didn't like, which kind of goes along with one of Carmine's CSI Files interviews, when he said something along the lines of Danny would find out "she's not everything he thought she would be" or something like that.

    No, and I don't think he came with that in mind, either. He came to support her as a friend--and she put the moves on him as soon as the trial concluded. Carmine said Danny didn't give it up until "Snow Day," but again, Danny has self-esteem issues, and might have just assumed that was what she wanted from him. She certainly didn't seem to want his support or friendship in season three--she turned to everyone but Danny to talk about her issues, and left him a card rather than telling him what was going on with her.

    I still think it's that Danny doesn't feel he has much to offer beyond the bedroom (or the pool table). He's an emotional, caring guy who doesn't seem to have an issue with women (thank goodness) or to disrespect them, but he also doesn't seem to know how to connect in a relationship.

    Realistically, that's the way it would go, but I feel like all of their issues were swept under the rug to accommodate the baby story (ie, Anna Belknap's pregnancy). Though I don't think any of it has unfolded in the most healthy way, I think we're supposed to see them as happy together.

    I've always suspected there was some sort of abuse in his past--emotional, physical, even sexual--that would explain the way he is. I still kind of wonder if at some point down the road that will be opened up and explored. There definitely seems to be something there, because he's a pretty messed up character.

    I agree about the interest part, but at the same time, Danny has always been pretty caring (aside from when he was grappling with the loss of Ruben). I think she judged him overly harshly in that--I could see her thinking they wouldn't be together, but not that he'd want nothing to do with the baby. Another example of how neither really knows the other.

    Again, I can't quite agree with that. I think he knew on some level she didn't want to deal with his messy emotions, and so he didn't go to her accordingly. I've never seen him not taking her seriously or dismissing her, aside from in "Right Next Door," when he'd already come to the conclusion that she wasn't offering up any support. He even talked to Angell a bit about it when she asked. Lindsay simply wasn't there for him and he knew it.

    I don't think he liked her to begin with. She was replacing Aiden, she was competitive, she wasn't all that nice. I think she was interested pretty early on, but sometimes she didn't seem quite sure how to flirt with him. She would be kind of snarky or competitive with him, which he seemed to find off-putting.

    Maybe--it was such a jarring 180 that it's hard to say. I imagine the Montana case had a lot to do with it, but it's not really an excuse to stand him up on a date. Why not just say "no" to begin with? I thought that really made her unsympathetic, especially when he then had to chase her down to even get a real answer.

    I think she bought it because she does love him. And I don't know that it was fake so much as a sign of desperation. He didn't want her to go off to Montana, have her family tell her he was no good, and lose that baby.

    Great point about Danny being the Edward Cullen of CSI: NY; Lindsay is certainly the Bella Swann that girls can imagine themselves as. Danny was definitely the babe of the show from the beginning, that's for sure. I can't really see Lindsay with one of the other guys on the show, aside from maybe Mac. Flack treats her like his competition for Danny (which she is--one of my fav lines from him is "You should piss Lindsay off more often" from "Personal Foul") and Hawkes has never shown much interest in her. The only thing that really has saved Lindsay from total Mary-Sue-dom is that not every guy is falling all over her--she's something of a plain Jane, and Danny is really the only one who's ever expressed any romantic interest in her.
     
  8. Curiosity

    Curiosity Prime Suspect

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    I agree – looks like they are testing range, which is a very good thing. And from the Peyton scene, I think they also could be trying to assess the actresses’ sense of humor and ability to banter. I’m not the biggest Peyton fan, but I think she bantered well and at times exhibited a certain glibness that perhaps they’d like to see in this new character.



    This is sort of what I was getting at earlier in the discussion. They do have a very effective female lead in Stella –a character who is strong, tough, experienced and can hold her own with the boys but still manages to be feminine and nurturing. I suspect they want another female character to complement Stella’s role – a more youthful female presence, perhaps one who also is smart and action-oriented but perhaps less experienced and more prone to the occasional mistake. And I wouldn’t be surprised if they are also looking for someone who’ll have a different dynamic with the younger male characters – someone who will be more of a little sister to some or perhaps a bit flirty with others.


    From my POV, the question is how Lindsay will fit in with the other women. Despite the references to Montana, I don’t think her country girl persona has been well established. And the cutesy stuff (like the demonstrations with Mac) doesn’t seem to fit at this stage because the character really doesn’t seem to fit that mold any longer (younger, school-girlish), and given the amount of time she’s been with the group, one would expect her to be beyond that type of stuff.

    As the leading lady, MK/Stella fills a certain role in the show, and if they are successful in bringing in a new female character who is young, attractive, and action-oriented – especially one who develops a bond with Stella -- I think Lindsay will seem like the odd (wo)man out.


    Agreed. No matter how fleshed out the description and role are at the start, they will need to adjust and evolve the character over time based on what comes across on screen, how the audience responds, and even what storyline opportunities emerge as the other characters progress. With that in mind, I think they need a young, versatile actress who can meet the basic needs as they are defined right now but also is adaptable enough to help shape and create a fully realized character over time.


    I think it’s possible TPIC might choose to do exactly that…especially if they believe that the D/L relationship is not sustainable for whatever reason – e.g., one of the actors might be leaving or going to a reduced schedule. In that case, I could see them deciding to accelerate the romance in order to bring some type of closure to the developing romance storyline while also providing some payoff for those who have followed the relationship for the last few years.


    Personally, I think moving Lindsay to the lab could be like the kiss of death for the character. When it comes to the work, she already has a tendency to fade into the background relative to the other detectives who typically take the lead on the cases (e.g., interrogations, pursuing suspects, etc.) And even in the lab, it’s becoming harder to see what unique skills or qualities she brings to the table that might distinguish her from Hawkes and Adam.


    I’m not really surprised that the fan fiction statistics trend heavily towards D/L since it’s the one long term canon romance (covering multiple seasons) established in the series. It does seem to be popular among a certain segment of the fan base, but I’m not sure that translates readily as a measure of the broader audience’s interest. I actually find it kind of interesting that for a series like this one, the “non-canon” romances seem to generate that amount of fanfiction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2009
  9. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Except that it was alluded to in Pay Up. The fact that this was the first time in quite a while seems to say more about the writers' problems with story consistency. Aside from that episode where Danny was searching for baby names (and honestly, Louie = a name in my family - why not just say it was his brother's name?), I think the last time we got reference to Louie was back in S3, wasn't it?

    He did seem like he was just complaining, but then Hawkes said "two hours out of your Saturday is a dealbreaker, huh?" It didn't sound like he was just reluctantly going to the party and griping about it, that made it sound like he actually dumped her rather than go to the party. I don't know what they were about to do when he got the phone call, haven't seen that episode in a while either, though I do remember his making some weird comment about how his girlfriend "loved to talk". Though I'll agree it's too brief and vague to really say much about his character, it's the only real thing we have on his other relationships.

    I don't think it was quite a one-night stand either, not exactly...more like for a short time, she was a challenge that he couldn't get, and that's what seemed to make her more interesting. And then once he did get her, she wasn't a challenge anymore, he got bored. That's the way it really read to me.

    I have to find all these interviews! But yeah, this seems like a fair interpretation too, although it still seems to come down to the same thing. Why not dump her then if the relationship wasn't turning out as he expected? I don't know if this would've seemed less bothersome to me. But she seemed to so obviously care about him that if he was already losing interest, a quick clean break might actually have been nicer than just dragging it out until he hurt her. For the record, I don't think she would've actually gotten to the point of falling for him if he'd put the brakes on things early in S4.

    True, and in that light I can see how he might assume Lindsay just wanted him for sex. That scene always did bother me (couldn't the writers have just left it at the hug?), but I'm still seeing this as a breakdown in communication. She never looked to him for support or friendship, but she didn't really seem to look to anyone for this (telling Stella and Mac what happened because they're her bosses and demand an explanation, I really don't see this as counting). He, on the other hand, had made it clear that he was still interested in her through S3, and his showing up in Montana probably sent a red-light signal that he was still extremely interested - even if he was only there as a friend. So that made her interested in a relationship. I can see how it would. Like you said, she didn't seem to want his friendship in S3, all but shoved him down while she was shoving him away, but he still showed up? It's one of my favourite D/L friendship moments, but the romantic connotations to it all have ruined it completely for me.


    I totally don't think Danny has a problem with women. So I guess yeah, I can get behind his insecurity leaving him unable to connect in a relationship. But this still leaves me all :brickwall: because it still begs the question, why let yourself get caught in a relationship in the first place? I'm not sure how many of his girlfriends would've been satisfied had he simply let them know the score right away, but I have to think they probably would've been less affronted than they were once they were actually in the relationship with him. Lindsay, yeah, she seemed to start really caring about him in an "I want an emotional relationship" way toward the end of S3, but I'm sure she, at least, would've still been fine with him had he let her know what he was and wasn't okay with from the start. Maybe not perfectly fine with him, but certainly more fine than she was by even "The Deep", let alone "Right Next Door".


    Yeah, no kidding...but it still sucks. :( My pet peeve is when, in any medium, we're supposed to believe things are fine between the characters "because the writer(s) says so". It's not enough for me, especially when things are so obviously not fine like they are with D/L.

    Wow, I am in total agreement:p I mean, I really think Louie tried to protect Danny from the worst of the elements in the neighbourhood they grew up in (because I think that's what Run Silent was largely about), but at the same time, I think some things would've inevitably gotten through his guard. I just wish they could expand on this a bit more. I don't know how much hope I have (I'm kind of using their promise of better character development as a life preserver, lol). But I really think this could come into play very interestingly, especially now that Danny has Lucy in his life.

    Well, I'm not sure I agree that they don't know each other, although certainly not enough to be in a relationship. One of the few things I liked about The Box was how Danny knew he literally had to corner Lindsay to make her talk to him about a personal problem - because that's how he's made her talk to him in the past. As for her judging him harshly, I didn't really see her looking from the perspective that he'd want nothing to do with the baby at all. I thought she just felt (not unreasonably) that he wouldn't be interested in the pregnancy aspect of things. Maybe, by a stretch, in the custody aspect of things too.

    Except that she did want to deal with those emotions - she said so in RND. I never saw the problem being her not wanting to deal with those emotions. At least, not as of S4 (though, from seasons past, I can understand how Danny might've gotten the feeling that she didn't want to deal with him emotionally). The problem was always in her never going to him and letting him know that she wanted to deal with them. She just kept waiting for him to come to her. Which he never did, and I'm still iffy on if he ever would have. There's not a lot of interaction they had in S4, but the one time before Child's Play that they did touch on something kind of emotional (Lindsay telling him she'd been worried about him, and how Hawkes was lucky to have him there), he brushed her off ("Stop goofing off, we've got work to do"). Which may well have been true, but still isn't that confidence-inspiring. Especially since I think it was the only time, ever, that Lindsay has even come close to admitting something like that. Just in general, he doesn't seem great with the emotional aspect of girlfriends.

    The scene with Angell was actually precisely what I had in mind when I wondered who Danny would've opened up to had they asked him. As I remember it, the only thing Danny said to Angell was "his name was Ruben", and that's when she told him she'd heard about the kid in his building who'd died. Angell said "I'm sorry", really sympathetically (it was actually one of her few good moments), and Danny shut down. He didn't say anything else after that, which is what leaves me wondering just how open he would've been to sympathy from anyone else. Even Flack seemed to have to push a bit to get anything significant out of him.

    Agreed. It was a bad start. Shaky is probably the most complimentary thing I could say about their beginning, and it largely seemed to go downhill from there.

    I've always figured the date was set before (or during) Not What It Looks Like - when Lindsay was still fine with a casual flirtation with Danny. Before things got serious. Because I totally have to agree with you about the whole "just say no to begin with" - I'm having trouble believing that Lindsay (heck, anyone) would set a date with the intention of not showing up. Just logically, it makes no sense, not in this kind of situation. It wasn't like she just stood him up - she didn't even call to say she wasn't coming. And it's not like Danny was some random stranger or blind date she'd never have to worry about seeing again, she shares an office with the guy. Obviously it was going to come up, though she did try to avoid him as long as she could. But just rationally, people don't behave that way unless an emergency or crisis comes up.

    Yeah, I think she bought it for that exact same reason. But Lindsay's not exactly the type to kid herself for years on end - she was kidding herself regarding Danny's investment in their relationship through (I think) the first half of S4, but she did, finally, get the message that he just wasn't into her. And I think I agree about Danny's only saying "I love you" out of desperation, but for me it's still fake, because he's lying. He doesn't love her, he shouldn't be telling her he does. I know that Lucy is his primary concern right now, but how is Lindsay not going to be hurt when (*sigh*...if, more like, thanks to the writers) she figures out he's lying? I don't think he's thinking about that at all, which may be understandable but really isn't fair to Lindsay by any standard.

    Lol, agreed. Though for me it wasn't so much linking Lindsay with Bella Swan. It was unsurprising to see all those fangirls (I think they're all fangirls) viewing Danny as this perfect guy because Lindsay, around late S3/early S4, largely seemed to also be viewing Danny as a perfect guy too. Which does tell me that she didn't know him from...well, Adam, although I think she's gotten better at this.

    Oh gosh, I know - it was the only saving grace I found during those first few episodes I saw her in! And even then, I was all but screaming into a pillow when I watched Stuck on You (I think maybe the fourth episode I ever saw her in?) because for a moment it looked like one of the suspects was hitting on her and I was just like "get rid of her now!"

    But as for the ships...Mac/Lindsay, I have to admit, sends creepy-crawlies down my spine, because it's far too reminiscent of Sara/Grissom. But almost all of Flack and Lindsay's onscreen interactions have cracked me up. I don't know how much I agree that they view each other as rivals for Danny - they seem to randomly pick on each other about things completely separate from Danny. Yet at the same time, they seem to laugh when it comes to more personal things. I've actually thought that Danny was the one thing they bonded on. (And um, I have to admit that scenes like the "doll/wife" one in Sex, Lies, and Silicone, and Sam thinking they were dating in Dead Inside kind of get me in a crack-ish way. It's scenes like that [and Laughing Larry] that leave me doubting that Flack actually resents Lindsay for stealing his best friend.) I can't really see them together seriously, as in "this could be canon one day" way, but I do think they'd be cute, and that they'd work better than D/L if they did. At the very least, they're not likely to be as emotionally unstable.

    I'll give you Hawkes, there doesn't seem to be any personal interest, but I just like the way they always play off of each other on their cases, and the way they kind of fed off of each other's frustration and pain in Pay Up. For a long time in S3, Hawkes seemed to replace Danny as the CSI Lindsay was friendliest with, and there was the Montana thing at the end of S4. *shrug* It's shipping. It doesn't have to make sense :p
     
  10. racefh853629

    racefh853629 Pathologist

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    I agree, Top. And I'd also like to point out his scene with Mac in "Green Piece", where he basically reiterates a lot of these points. "What if I'm not good enough?" is Danny's essential message, and that's not something someone who has self-esteem would say.

    Although it's natural to question if you'd make a good parent, that wasn't exactly what Danny was getting at there. He was also questioning how he could be best for Lindsay and how he didn't want to hurt her, like he didn't trust himself.

    I see Danny as the type of person who does what he can to make sure those around him are happy. He hates hurting people. And if it meant hurting himself to make them happy, he'd probably do it too. He thinks of himself as less than everyone, and he's only here to make sure the people he cares about most are happy.

    It's cliche, but you can't love someone unless you love yourself, and I think this applies to Danny, too. He likes the idea of a happy, picture perfect life, but he can't figure out how to get it when he's as messed up as he is. He figures the best way to make the picture is to make everyone around him happy, and that he'll be happy if everyone else is happy.
     
  11. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I'm sure this is what they are looking for...but have they ever really gone in this direction before? Adding someone who's basically a copy of a lead female character, only younger and less experienced? I thought the one time they did this (with Sofia Curtis), the plan tanked after a couple of seasons. Another reason I don't have high hopes for Kaye Sullivan.

    I agree about Lindsay being beyond the cutesy stuff...at least, I agree that she should've grown beyond it. Quite a few episodes in S5 indicate that she hasn't. But I think what has to be equally considered is the role Lindsay already plays in the show. Well-liked or not, she's been there for four seasons...viewers are used to seeing her in her place on the team. And new characters are always held to a ridiculous standard. I can see how the show might adjust the team dynamics to make Kaye Sullivan fit, but I think that for the first season at least, it's definitely Kaye whose going to seem like the odd woman out, the one who has to earn a place. Even now, she's already being viewed with suspicion and wariness by viewers (and um, I already dislike her, though that may be because of how poorly they seem to have fleshed her character out). Familiarity has a lot to do with who seems out of place on a show, doesn't it?

    I know the character is going to develop over time, as have all the characters for the most part, but I think they should have at least a reasonably strong idea of who the character is going to be from the first...that way the development doesn't end up all choppy, like I think Lindsay's did. Right now, it seems troubling that they're not even testing the actresses on the things we viewers already know about Kaye Sullivan. I just... won't be that surprised if we end up with another Belknap discrepancy, because it really seems to me this is how Belknap got her part to begin with. Whether or not she was a good actress, she was given a poor (or at least, unrealistic) role, and maybe they didn't put much emphasis on how well the actresses would be able to play the emotions required of Lindsay Monroe.

    Or maybe they did, and that's why they decided Belknap would work.

    But the storyline was basically finished and done with by Green Piece, maybe by Greater Good if they figured that we needed to actually see the baby be born. We knew that they had a baby on the way, I doubt that even D/L fans needed all the extra fodder. There's been an average range of 7-10 minutes worth of unnecessary D/L moments in a good chunk of the episodes leading up to the end, that's practically a quarter of those episodes they could've spent on character development in other areas. Like, maybe, Stella's relationship with that Professor. A large part of what bothered me in Grounds for Deception is that I just didn't believe in the close, supposedly paternal relationship between Stella and the Professor. We barely saw the guy, and if they actually wanted us to care, they probably should've spent more time building on that relationship. Or even Flack/Angell - I couldn't stand them, but I would think their token moments would be more important than D/L, considering the writers knew for a fact Angell would be dead by Pay Up.

    I guess I can see if they thought D/L wouldn't be sustainable after S5, they'd want to get in as much fan service as they could. But with all that work...it just makes me think the writers are not letting this go if they have any choice at all.

    I'm not sure if I agree...it's always been kind of obvious that Adam is the "tech" guy, and Lindsay is the one who kind of brings in random, almost unrelated, things that take the case in a new direction (like her introducing the idea that the murder weapon might be from Alexander's tomb in GfD, and Hawkes soon after confirming it; or the beans from Forbidden Fruit), and Hawkes is the know-it-all. I've always felt that lab-wise, they've always been the easiest to define - it's not as easy to see what the others contribute in the lab, though it's a lot easier to see what they contribute in the field. I'm not keen on her moving to the lab full-time, but if she does, I hope they play on this.

    I think romance in general attracts a lot of fanfic writers, which could explain the DL phenomenon. But I've found that fanfic trends (well, for most of the fandoms I've been in) do tend to be at least a reasonable indicator of audience interest, although I've never really been in a TV fandom, so I'm not sure if it'd be the same. In general, people who write fanfic are usually the extremely interested fans, so you can kind of see what's drawing the extremely interested fans. With Harry Potter, Draco and Harry were arguably the most popular characters in that book series, and it showed in the fanfic trends. I'm not a CSI Miami fan, but Calleigh seems to be the most popular fanfic character in FF.Net, which kind of matches with what I've seen from Miami fans.

    I was shocked to find Stella/Flack fanfic at all, but yeah, I'm taking it as an indicator that it's just romance in general that attracts these writers.

    Sorry if I double-posted!
     
  12. vegaslights

    vegaslights Brute

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    Fuck.

    Question: I read that they are casting for a new female CSI on CSI NY. Any info on if this is a replacement or an addition? In other words, is someone not returning in September? --Kate
    Ausiello:
    I can tell you that it's not a replacement for either Anna Belknap or Melina Kanakaredes. Both are officially returning next season. Not sure about the rest of the cast.

    http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/06/ask-ausiello-spoilers-on-house-gossip-girl-and-more.html
     
  13. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Oh, snap. But then, who are they replacing, because he definitely made it sound like they were replacing someone? Hill is returning next season, as is Carmine...that basically leaves AJ or Robert, which makes no sense because they only just joined the main cast.
     
  14. under_cover

    under_cover Hit and Run

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    Thanks vegaslights! Though Im Not surprised at all. Ive heard about these two coming back in S6, including Carmine like 3 weeks ago from a friend in El lay (LA). Cant hide anything in hollywood. =)

    Ive always thought AJ (God forbid!). He's probably not leaving the show but maybe he'll get less screen time. Like what ive said in my previous post, he's got heaps of projects now. But i hope im wrong. Adam's my second fave male character, hes next to Danny.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  15. ~Sarah~

    ~Sarah~ Lab Technician

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    Well, that's interesting. She's not a replacement for Lindsay or Stella... so I don't really understand why they're bringing a new CSI onto the show.
     
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