CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

[vegaslights]

^^But if AJ is leaving, why bring a CSI to fill a lab rat position?

 

[under_cover]

^^But if AJ is leaving, why bring a CSI to fill a lab rat position?

Since most of them are all around, except on ME job, oh well there's Hawks, maybe they'll let the other CSI's (Danny, Hawks, Lindsay)take over Adam's job while he's away? Assuming that AJ requested a lil time off on NY) but eh, i think Adam is still the best on the tech republic. im also confused about bringing a new cast on the show...por dios, i dont know.

 

[danny-lindsay4e]

Question: I read that they are casting for a new female CSI on CSI NY. Any info on if this is a replacement or an addition? In other words, is someone not returning in September? --Kate
Ausiello: I can tell you that it's not a replacement for either Anna Belknap or Melina Kanakaredes. Both are officially returning next season. Not sure about the rest of the cast.

sounds strange but i had a feeling (with all the contract stuff going on) that only cause we were getting a girl it may not have been a girl leaving? my bet is sid (hawkes goes to ME again gives him more scene time.)

WOW thank the lord for spoilers i say i can't wait for anything i swear even when i had my daughter i had to know what i was having i went all hormonal on the nurse week after week until i knew.

 

[Poppet]

If they are just adding to the cast then I will be annoyed, why don't they just go and slap EV in the face?

To me it makes no sense to just add to the cast as they are unable to give everyone they currently have adequate screentime. Hawkes was brought out of the MEs office to give Hill more screentime and that didn't work, with an extra CSI he is going to have even less.

 

[Miss Doolittle]

If the producers simply wanted to balance the sex ratio, like male:female = 6:3 or 5:3(If a male character's leaving), they should have kept Angell then. I really don't understand why all three CSI franchises seem to think that they should get rid of second detective(after they hire one!). :scream: All the second detectives from CSI and CSI: Miami were much better than the substitute lab techs or CSIs after them gone in my opinion.

 

[Messers fan]

I'm still convince that Danny is gonna be severely hurt and will have to stay at the lab. We know that Carmine has got a hard time with his back and that he will no longer jump or run everywhere as he was used to do it before and he's not gonna spend his time to fall down into bag ( I dont remenber which episode but it was with Angell ) while the other run like he did in season 5 so we need a good reason to know why he is not gonna make it anymore.

So they do need another physical character who like to take risks Mac is too old, Hawkes is the brain team, Lindsay is not gonna take risks she just had a child, Stella well she can do it but only sometimes it's not really the profil, so we have only Flack, not much for this show that's why I think they want a fresh young csi to do it

 

[under_cover]

So they do need another physical character who like to take risks Mac is too old, Hawkes is the brain team, Lindsay is not gonna take risks she just had a child, Stella well she can do it but only sometimes it's not really the profil, so we have only Flack, not much for this show that's why I think they want a fresh young csi to do it

if they want some girl action... why kill angell? EV got what it takes to do some nice action stunts (atta girl) and not to mention she's hot too. so it doesnt make sense why they let her go.

Budget? Budget my a*s.

i dont think recurring character's salary is much higher than a regular one. as far i know, correct me if im wrong, recurring characters gets paid on per
taping day or per episode basis and sometimes their rate is not fix. oh well, unless EV asked NY to give her a contract and NY cant give her demands, then thats another story.

 

[Curiosity]

I'm sure this is what they are looking for...but have they ever really gone in this direction before? Adding someone who's basically a copy of a lead female character, only younger and less experienced?

I doubt they’re looking for a Stella copy per se… more likely someone who will have decent presence and play well against the regulars, especially GS and MK. Even if Kaye and Stella turn out to be similar in certain ways, there’ll probably still be some personality differences – e.g., Kaye could be more of an academic, bookish type than Stella and could also be more flirty and vivacious.

But I think what has to be equally considered is the role Lindsay already plays in the show. Well-liked or not, she's been there for four seasons...viewers are used to seeing her in her place on the team. And new characters are always held to a ridiculous standard. I can see how the show might adjust the team dynamics to make Kaye Sullivan fit, but I think that for the first season at least, it's definitely Kaye whose going to seem like the odd woman out, the one who has to earn a place. Even now, she's already being viewed with suspicion and wariness by viewers (and um, I already dislike her, though that may be because of how poorly they seem to have fleshed her character out). Familiarity has a lot to do with who seems out of place on a show, doesn't it?

Well, I agree…it is a gamble of sorts to bring in an unknown to an already established cast, and the actress selected to play Kaye will get a lot of scrutiny while having to prove that she can fill the role effectively. Some in the audience are likely to be more tolerant than others, though. Kaye doesn’t necessarily have to be perfect from the get-go – - for some, she just needs to be more interesting than some of the regulars who may be viewed as annoying or boring.

I know the character is going to develop over time, as have all the characters for the most part, but I think they should have at least a reasonably strong idea of who the character is going to be from the first...that way the development doesn't end up all choppy, like I think Lindsay's did. Right now, it seems troubling that they're not even testing the actresses on the things we viewers already know about Kaye Sullivan.

Not knowing much about the technical or practical aspects of casting, I’m not sure what process works best when trying to fill a new role like this. They have a description, though, and a range of material for the reading, so their approach doesn’t seem that unreasonable on the surface given the time constraints. No matter how much character definition they have up front, I suspect there’s still bound to be quite a bit subjectivity in the decision process.

But the storyline was basically finished and done with by Green Piece, maybe by Greater Good if they figured that we needed to actually see the baby be born. We knew that they had a baby on the way, I doubt that even D/L fans needed all the extra fodder. There's been an average range of 7-10 minutes worth of unnecessary D/L moments in a good chunk of the episodes leading up to the end, that's practically a quarter of those episodes they could've spent on character development in other areas.

But as far as significant D/L moments after Green Piece, weren’t those largely confined to Greater Good and a few lab scenes with baby Lucy in Grounds for Deception? The rest of the time seemed like the focus was mainly on Danny with references to Lindsay in Montana. Anyway, as annoying as some of it was, I thought the writers were fairly selective in what was included. Relatively speaking, it could’ve been a lot worse.

Like, maybe, Stella's relationship with that Professor. A large part of what bothered me in Grounds for Deception is that I just didn't believe in the close, supposedly paternal relationship between Stella and the Professor. We barely saw the guy, and if they actually wanted us to care, they probably should've spent more time building on that relationship.

Agreed. If they wanted the case to take a personal turn, there should’ve been more backstory with the Professor introduced earlier instead of revealing a lot of stuff about their relationship in the concluding episode of the arc. Of course, the first time the Professor appeared, I wondered if he could be involved with Diakos in some way, but I certainly didn’t expect him to end up being tied to Stella’s mother.

I guess I can see if they thought D/L wouldn't be sustainable after S5, they'd want to get in as much fan service as they could. But with all that work...it just makes me think the writers are not letting this go if they have any choice at all.

I should’ve said “sustainable longer term.” Even if they were winding down the relationship in some way, I wouldn’t expect it to just come to an abrupt end. I think they can still get some mileage out of the work/parenting balance issues during season six– what happens after that is really the question.

I'm not sure if I agree...it's always been kind of obvious that Adam is the "tech" guy, and Lindsay is the one who kind of brings in random, almost unrelated, things that take the case in a new direction (like her introducing the idea that the murder weapon might be from Alexander's tomb in GfD, and Hawkes soon after confirming it; or the beans from Forbidden Fruit), and Hawkes is the know-it-all.

I can see that is probably the way the roles are/were intended to be, but this past season, in particular, it seemed the writers were blurring the lines a bit more and giving some of the lab work to whichever character/actor needed the screen time as opposed to who made sense role-wise. I think some of this may’ve been a consequence of attempts to increase the profile of Adam and Hawkes this season. And seems like the division of lab labor could get worse if Kaye is also supposed to be a lab scientist.

Ausiello: I can tell you that it's not a replacement for either Anna Belknap or Melina Kanakaredes. Both are officially returning next season. Not sure about the rest of the cast.

I’m not too surprised at this answer. I think it’s less a question of who is returning and more one of for how long and in what capacity (regular, recurring, etc.). If Kaye Sullivan is coming in as a long term regular, it’s still hard for me to imagine that the full cast will remain intact going into season seven, especially if there are budget issues and some of the actors’ contracts will be expiring. I still see season six as possibly a transition season of sorts, a time to see how the new character fits and juggle the existing cast a bit. All speculation at this point, though, and time will tell.

 

[CdfSjaI]

I was kind of hoping that they would have less Lindsay screentime, but i guess since Anna is returning....

I'm upset for Emmanuelle. It doesn't matter what was TPTB's true reason for killing her off, but supposed budget cuts--and then adding a new REGULAR?! That's beyond cruel.

 

[JellyBelly]

While we only know the reason for killing off Angell was apparent budget cuts, I'm pretty sure EV was given more information than that. I don't for one minute think she's sitting at home going 'damn tptb, they told me it was budget cuts and then they bring in someone new'. She has a good, solid career and while I'm sure she was disappointed to leave I'd imagine she understands the issues better than any of us do.

While I am a little concerned about how they will divvy up the screentime with a new character if no-one else goes, I'm actually a little excited about this new addition. It seems as though tptb might want to shake things up a little and that's potentially great for the show.

I am also relieved that it seems killing off Angell wasn't only for budgetary reasons but also for creative reasons and I certainly don't see that as cruel or a slap in the face for EV. I actually think it's promising for the future of the show.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

All Ausiello says is that Melina and Anna are returning next season. All of the characters are returning next season because we have to find out who was shot. It's not who's returning, it's who's sticking around. If all Ausiello is going on is who he knows is returning, then he has no idea if the new character is a replacement for Melina or Anna.

 

[Top41]

I'm not shocked that apparently no one is leaving, though it really doesn't jive with the whole budget cut story. Unless EV was making bank on the show, a new reg's salary is going to outweigh hers. I am looking forward to the new character, though.

Except that it was alluded to in Pay Up. The fact that this was the first time in quite a while seems to say more about the writers' problems with story consistency. Aside from that episode where Danny was searching for baby names (and honestly, Louie = a name in my family - why not just say it was his brother's name?), I think the last time we got reference to Louie was back in S3, wasn't it?

There was a reference in season four's "The Deep" I believe--Danny was telling Hawkes some story about Louie IIRC.

He did seem like he was just complaining, but then Hawkes said "two hours out of your Saturday is a dealbreaker, huh?" It didn't sound like he was just reluctantly going to the party and griping about it, that made it sound like he actually dumped her rather than go to the party. I don't know what they were about to do when he got the phone call, haven't seen that episode in a while either, though I do remember his making some weird comment about how his girlfriend "loved to talk". Though I'll agree it's too brief and vague to really say much about his character, it's the only real thing we have on his other relationships.

The Hawkes line struck me more as Hawkes' interpretation of it. I think Danny was just bitching because Danny likes to bitch. Danny is kind of a whiner himself at times. :lol: The phone call thing was really just to pump that Coldplay song ring tone, so I've always taken it as a throwaway line anyway. All I've ever really deduced from all of that is that Danny dates, probably more than the others on the show do. But then insecure people don't like to be alone.

I don't think it was quite a one-night stand either, not exactly...more like for a short time, she was a challenge that he couldn't get, and that's what seemed to make her more interesting. And then once he did get her, she wasn't a challenge anymore, he got bored. That's the way it really read to me.

I never really saw it that way, maybe because her interest was so obvious to me in season two, and I really think it was what sparked his. I think it was more that he needed to see that she did in fact want him. The season four thing does really kind of baffle me...it was obvious that he lost interest, but never really obvious why.

I have to find all these interviews! But yeah, this seems like a fair interpretation too, although it still seems to come down to the same thing. Why not dump her then if the relationship wasn't turning out as he expected? I don't know if this would've seemed less bothersome to me. But she seemed to so obviously care about him that if he was already losing interest, a quick clean break might actually have been nicer than just dragging it out until he hurt her. For the record, I don't think she would've actually gotten to the point of falling for him if he'd put the brakes on things early in S4.

No, but he's a guy. :lol: The approach you're talking about would be the logical one and maybe he thought if he distanced himself, she'd get the hint. Though if he was wasn't putting out I doubt she'd have fallen for him, so clearly he wasn't totally out of the relationship. I think she seemed pretty into him in "The Deep" though. I don't think it took all that long for her to fall for him after they slept together, given that she'd liked him for two seasons already.

True, and in that light I can see how he might assume Lindsay just wanted him for sex. That scene always did bother me (couldn't the writers have just left it at the hug?), but I'm still seeing this as a breakdown in communication. She never looked to him for support or friendship, but she didn't really seem to look to anyone for this (telling Stella and Mac what happened because they're her bosses and demand an explanation, I really don't see this as counting). He, on the other hand, had made it clear that he was still interested in her through S3, and his showing up in Montana probably sent a red-light signal that he was still extremely interested - even if he was only there as a friend. So that made her interested in a relationship. I can see how it would. Like you said, she didn't seem to want his friendship in S3, all but shoved him down while she was shoving him away, but he still showed up? It's one of my favourite D/L friendship moments, but the romantic connotations to it all have ruined it completely for me.

Again, I think it all speaks to Danny's low self-esteem. He kept going back even though she kept kicking him. Carmine referred to it as Danny being a "punching bag" which I thought was pretty accurate.

(BTW, the CSI Files interviews can be found here. Some of the ones talking about this stuff are older, so you have to click "More Interviews" at the bottom of the page to see them all.)

I totally don't think Danny has a problem with women. So I guess yeah, I can get behind his insecurity leaving him unable to connect in a relationship. But this still leaves me all :brickwall: because it still begs the question, why let yourself get caught in a relationship in the first place? I'm not sure how many of his girlfriends would've been satisfied had he simply let them know the score right away, but I have to think they probably would've been less affronted than they were once they were actually in the relationship with him. Lindsay, yeah, she seemed to start really caring about him in an "I want an emotional relationship" way toward the end of S3, but I'm sure she, at least, would've still been fine with him had he let her know what he was and wasn't okay with from the start. Maybe not perfectly fine with him, but certainly more fine than she was by even "The Deep", let alone "Right Next Door".

I don't think that Danny isn't emotionally invested in his relationships. I think he just thinks he's not good enough/can't give them what they want, so he shuts down.

Yeah, no kidding...but it still sucks. My pet peeve is when, in any medium, we're supposed to believe things are fine between the characters "because the writer(s) says so". It's not enough for me, especially when things are so obviously not fine like they are with D/L.

No, it's not enough for me either, especially given the rocky past of the duo.

Wow, I am in total agreement I mean, I really think Louie tried to protect Danny from the worst of the elements in the neighbourhood they grew up in (because I think that's what Run Silent was largely about), but at the same time, I think some things would've inevitably gotten through his guard. I just wish they could expand on this a bit more. I don't know how much hope I have (I'm kind of using their promise of better character development as a life preserver, lol). But I really think this could come into play very interestingly, especially now that Danny has Lucy in his life.

I hope something comes to light. Danny's an incredibly damaged character, and it's hard to believe he got that way without something happening to him. Louie's protectiveness makes me think there was something worse he wasn't able to protect Danny from. The fact that that moment drove such a big wedge between the brothers tells me it wasn't the first time Danny was hurt by someone he loved.

Well, I'm not sure I agree that they don't know each other, although certainly not enough to be in a relationship. One of the few things I liked about The Box was how Danny knew he literally had to corner Lindsay to make her talk to him about a personal problem - because that's how he's made her talk to him in the past. As for her judging him harshly, I didn't really see her looking from the perspective that he'd want nothing to do with the baby at all. I thought she just felt (not unreasonably) that he wouldn't be interested in the pregnancy aspect of things. Maybe, by a stretch, in the custody aspect of things too.

The "I know you" bit was pretty harsh and judgmental in my book. As for Danny having to corner her--it's true that that's always what he has to do. I find that frustrating--it's time for her to grow up and learn that sometimes you have to talk to people when you have an issue with them, rather than running from it like a sullen teen.

Except that she did want to deal with those emotions - she said so in RND. I never saw the problem being her not wanting to deal with those emotions. At least, not as of S4 (though, from seasons past, I can understand how Danny might've gotten the feeling that she didn't want to deal with him emotionally). The problem was always in her never going to him and letting him know that she wanted to deal with them. She just kept waiting for him to come to her. Which he never did, and I'm still iffy on if he ever would have. There's not a lot of interaction they had in S4, but the one time before Child's Play that they did touch on something kind of emotional (Lindsay telling him she'd been worried about him, and how Hawkes was lucky to have him there), he brushed her off ("Stop goofing off, we've got work to do"). Which may well have been true, but still isn't that confidence-inspiring. Especially since I think it was the only time, ever, that Lindsay has even come close to admitting something like that. Just in general, he doesn't seem great with the emotional aspect of girlfriends.

I think it was more that he wasn't comfortable in that moment, and perhaps with their relationship being out at work (he looked equally awkward when she put the condom spray in his lab coat in the previous episode). As for her wanting to deal with his emotions... I thought her comment in "Child's Play" was pretty telling. I think she knew that to be with him she had to deal with them, but that she didn't know how and didn't particularly want to try.

The scene with Angell was actually precisely what I had in mind when I wondered who Danny would've opened up to had they asked him. As I remember it, the only thing Danny said to Angell was "his name was Ruben", and that's when she told him she'd heard about the kid in his building who'd died. Angell said "I'm sorry", really sympathetically (it was actually one of her few good moments), and Danny shut down. He didn't say anything else after that, which is what leaves me wondering just how open he would've been to sympathy from anyone else. Even Flack seemed to have to push a bit to get anything significant out of him.

He said something about Ruben being 10 to Angell...I don't think it's that he didn't want to talk about it; I think it's more he didn't know what to say. The enormity of it was weighing on him, as he basically said to Flack at the end of "All in the Family."

I've always figured the date was set before (or during) Not What It Looks Like - when Lindsay was still fine with a casual flirtation with Danny. Before things got serious. Because I totally have to agree with you about the whole "just say no to begin with" - I'm having trouble believing that Lindsay (heck, anyone) would set a date with the intention of not showing up. Just logically, it makes no sense, not in this kind of situation. It wasn't like she just stood him up - she didn't even call to say she wasn't coming. And it's not like Danny was some random stranger or blind date she'd never have to worry about seeing again, she shares an office with the guy. Obviously it was going to come up, though she did try to avoid him as long as she could. But just rationally, people don't behave that way unless an emergency or crisis comes up.

Yeah, it just made her look bad. Who does that to someone they know, and supposedly care about?

Yeah, I think she bought it for that exact same reason. But Lindsay's not exactly the type to kid herself for years on end - she was kidding herself regarding Danny's investment in their relationship through (I think) the first half of S4, but she did, finally, get the message that he just wasn't into her. And I think I agree about Danny's only saying "I love you" out of desperation, but for me it's still fake, because he's lying. He doesn't love her, he shouldn't be telling her he does. I know that Lucy is his primary concern right now, but how is Lindsay not going to be hurt when (*sigh*...if, more like, thanks to the writers) she figures out he's lying? I don't think he's thinking about that at all, which may be understandable but really isn't fair to Lindsay by any standard.

I think lying is too strong a word. Fooling himself, yes, but lying implies a kind of craftiness that I don't think Danny possesses.

But as for the ships...Mac/Lindsay, I have to admit, sends creepy-crawlies down my spine, because it's far too reminiscent of Sara/Grissom. But almost all of Flack and Lindsay's onscreen interactions have cracked me up. I don't know how much I agree that they view each other as rivals for Danny - they seem to randomly pick on each other about things completely separate from Danny. Yet at the same time, they seem to laugh when it comes to more personal things. I've actually thought that Danny was the one thing they bonded on. (And um, I have to admit that scenes like the "doll/wife" one in Sex, Lies, and Silicone, and Sam thinking they were dating in Dead Inside kind of get me in a crack-ish way. It's scenes like that [and Laughing Larry] that leave me doubting that Flack actually resents Lindsay for stealing his best friend.) I can't really see them together seriously, as in "this could be canon one day" way, but I do think they'd be cute, and that they'd work better than D/L if they did. At the very least, they're not likely to be as emotionally unstable.

Flack treats her like more of a guy than he treats Danny, I think! He calls her by her last name and gets huffy when she teases him. Whereas with Danny, he's much gentler and almost chivalrous (he once lifted up the crime scene tape for Danny!). I just don't see it between Flack and Lindsay--I don't think he hates her, but there's always been a bit of an undercurrent of snark in a lot of his dealings with her.

Exactly. Being fair, it only seemed like Lindsay decided she wanted a relationship toward the end of S3 (before then, it seemed to me like she'd be more than up for a non-emotional, no-strings-attached hookup). But aside from the fact that he was already friends with her when they started dating, I'm not seeing a difference in the way Danny treated Lindsay and the way he'd treat his other girlfriends. Or girlfriend singular - I think we only really got info about what his relationships like when he was dating that Cindy person. I love him, but he doesn't seem to take Lindsay seriously anymore than he took Cindy seriously.

Honestly, I don't think it's the women he doesn't take seriously--it's himself. Danny has massive self-esteem issues. I think he took Lindsay very seriously in season three when he was so concerned about her emotional well-being and wanting to connect with her. But I don't think Danny really thinks much of himself, which is why he gave it up for Rikki so easily. He'd fucked up big time in his book, and nothing could fix that...but at least sex could put a bandage on it. I don't know that Danny thinks he's worth much beyond that, something that was reinforced by Lindsay coming on to him after the trial and Rikki coming on to him in the wake of Ruben's death.

I noticed him pulling away from Lindsay in season four as well. He didn't seem to know how to handle her very obvious, very public interest in him (the condom spray, the worry for him in "The Deep"). I don't know why he lost interest--maybe it was a self-esteem thing, or maybe he just didn't like her as much as he thought he did.

Both were just there for a good time. It's why he sounds so insincere in Season 5 with all the "I love yous". I don't think even Lindsay actually believes him when he says it.

I think he's too messed up to love anyone, really. His "I love yous" have come from fear and neediness--he doesn't want to lose her because she's carrying his baby. The moment Lindsay got pregnant, it all seemed to be about the baby for Danny. I don't think he does love her, though he probably thinks he does

I agree, Top. And I'd also like to point out his scene with Mac in "Green Piece", where he basically reiterates a lot of these points. "What if I'm not good enough?" is Danny's essential message, and that's not something someone who has self-esteem would say.

Although it's natural to question if you'd make a good parent, that wasn't exactly what Danny was getting at there. He was also questioning how he could be best for Lindsay and how he didn't want to hurt her, like he didn't trust himself.

I see Danny as the type of person who does what he can to make sure those around him are happy. He hates hurting people. And if it meant hurting himself to make them happy, he'd probably do it too. He thinks of himself as less than everyone, and he's only here to make sure the people he cares about most are happy.

It's cliche, but you can't love someone unless you love yourself, and I think this applies to Danny, too. He likes the idea of a happy, picture perfect life, but he can't figure out how to get it when he's as messed up as he is. He figures the best way to make the picture is to make everyone around him happy, and that he'll be happy if everyone else is happy.

Exactly. I think Danny is always looking at himself as "not good enough." He doesn't think he's worthy of being loved, which maybe is why Lindsay being in love with him really threw him off. Maybe he thought she's the only person who ever will love him, so he'd better get her back. Or he felt like he owed it to her if she does love him to be what she wants him to be. It all comes back to low self-esteem and not really being in a healthy place emotionally.

 

[Maya316]

So no one is leaving (because it doesn't make sense to replace either an ME or a lab tech with a full-fledged CSI)... the budgetary reason for EV leaving starts looking more like a smokescreen, though I guess she was given the full/real story.

Originally posted by JellyBelly:
While I am a little concerned about how they will divvy up the screentime with a new character if no-one else goes, I'm actually a little excited about this new addition. It seems as though tptb might want to shake things up a little and that's potentially great for the show.

Yeah! Does this lend any credence to the idea that either Mac or Stella are the ones who got shot, thus bumping one of the other Level-3s up to CSI second grade? I mean, if no one is going, what else could be that life-changing?

Is the screentime issue really that big of an issue? I have no idea how they work these things out among the actors (like, if they're promised they're going to get 20 minutes onscreen, whereas someone else gets 5, or whatnot), but I've never noticed that big of a problem with how often we see a character during an episode. Except for Mac, because we see him more often than anyone else, but that's kind of expected. I guess in episodes like Sex, Lies, Silicone, I did notice that Hawkes didn't seem as big a presence, but he appeared often enough. And in Hostage, S4 finale, it was annoying when all the secondary characters save Stella and Flack only got 5-minute cameos, but Hostage aired a while ago.

Originally posted by Curiosity:
I doubt they’re looking for a Stella copy per se… more likely someone who will have decent presence and play well against the regulars, especially GS and MK. Even if Kaye and Stella turn out to be similar in certain ways, there’ll probably still be some personality differences – e.g., Kaye could be more of an academic, bookish type than Stella and could also be more flirty and vivacious.

I guess I'm having trouble believing that these characteristics that might separate Kaye from Stella are going to stand out right away to the viewers, in a significant enough way. Mostly because Stella seems to cover a wide range of characteristics, more than any CSI female lead I've ever seen. And then those she hasn't got covered, most of the others have. I mean, flirty and vivacious - that's practically Stella right there, in quite a few episodes I've seen her in. I guess I can see how she'd be more academic and bookish, but ... well, that's how I'd describe Hawkes, so he's already got that covered.

This probably wouldn't happen if the CSI producers didn't recycle personality-quirks so often among their characters. :shifty:

Well, I agree…it is a gamble of sorts to bring in an unknown to an already established cast, and the actress selected to play Kaye will get a lot of scrutiny while having to prove that she can fill the role effectively. Some in the audience are likely to be more tolerant than others, though. Kaye doesn’t necessarily have to be perfect from the get-go – - for some, she just needs to be more interesting than some of the regulars who may be viewed as annoying or boring.

I wish they'd at least chosen Kaye Sullivan from a lab tech or something that we've already seen (like, maybe Kendall), and slowly brought her into the main cast. That's usually the option most shows take, right? That's how Natalia was brought into the CSI Miami cast, which allowed her to successfully stick when she became a regular. I think. Ryan Wolfe is the only time I can remember when they successfully added a complete newcomer to a CSI show, and I think that was successful because Speedle only died in S2. This is going into S6 fo NY. Yeah, I think there are going to be people receptive to Kaye, I'm just wondering how prevalent they will be...and how that possible prevalence is going to be pitted against the things that are (presumably) already drawing people to the show. That's why this is reminding me of Sofia Curtis (and even she wasn't just tossed into the main cast from the get-go). What the other actors/characters have on their side is that they're part of a dynamic that's been in play for almost five years now.

But as far as significant D/L moments after Green Piece, weren’t those largely confined to Greater Good and a few lab scenes with baby Lucy in Grounds for Deception? The rest of the time seemed like the focus was mainly on Danny with references to Lindsay in Montana. Anyway, as annoying as some of it was, I thought the writers were fairly selective in what was included. Relatively speaking, it could’ve been a lot worse.

Yeah... it's just something that really struck as ... um, a really bad peeve with me, so maybe they stood out more. You're right, aside from the Greater Good, the lab scenes in GfD, and the moments in Pay Up - kind of makes me nostalgic for the S4 days where we didn't see D/L for months at a time - they didn't have that many scenes together. But that right there is what I'm talking about - that's three episodes right there, and then you add in all the references to Lindsay in Montana (still completely unnecessary, why not just leave it at the quick scene where Mac asked how Lindsay was doing there?), and remember that there actually weren't that many episodes between Green Piece and then end of the season...and I was ready to drown something. I thought it was overkill, especially in a CSI show. It could've been worse, I guess, though at the moment I'm not really seeing how. Anyone who watches CSI Miami - do they go as overboard with the Eric/Calleigh moments? The episodes I've seen them in, they always seem to be tastefully understated.

Agreed. If they wanted the case to take a personal turn, there should’ve been more backstory with the Professor introduced earlier instead of revealing a lot of stuff about their relationship in the concluding episode of the arc. Of course, the first time the Professor appeared, I wondered if he could be involved with Diakos in some way, but I certainly didn’t expect him to end up being tied to Stella’s mother.

Exactly! And the moment where the Professor took that bullet for Stella? That makes me think that they did want the case to take a personal turn, but it was downright lazy the way they approached the storyline. Thus, that moment meant next to nothing. They've done better before. I disliked the Frankie storyline, but I do think a large part of its effectiveness came from the fact that they took the time, over S2, to build up Frankie/Stella. And the Clay Dobson storyline in S3, they put effort into building on what happened, what with Officer Truby and all, and that's why it panned out well. Probably because they didn't cram every spare moment they could find in S3 with D/L.

I should’ve said “sustainable longer term.” Even if they were winding down the relationship in some way, I wouldn’t expect it to just come to an abrupt end. I think they can still get some mileage out of the work/parenting balance issues during season six– what happens after that is really the question.

Yeah, I can see that. I'm personally crossing my fingers for divorce, though.

I can see that is probably the way the roles are/were intended to be, but this past season, in particular, it seemed the writers were blurring the lines a bit more and giving some of the lab work to whichever character/actor needed the screen time as opposed to who made sense role-wise. I think some of this may’ve been a consequence of attempts to increase the profile of Adam and Hawkes this season. And seems like the division of lab labor could get worse if Kaye is also supposed to be a lab scientist.

It's true that in quite a few episodes this season, lab-wise, they just seemed to have anybody doing whatever work was available...although S5 is what largely made me feel like Stella, Flack, Danny and Mac have the more defined roles in the field, whereas Hawkes, Adam, and Lindsay seem to have the more defined roles in the lab (although the latter guys didn't stand out as much). They were probably trying to give Hawkes and Adam more defined roles field-wise too, though, which might explain the messiness. But I think if they add Kaye, they might become more aware of the balance, simply out of necessity - it's not like they can just shove what, eight people into defined field roles, can they?

 

[Maya316]

There was a reference in season four's "The Deep" I believe--Danny was telling Hawkes some story about Louie IIRC.

Oh wow, lol, I totally forgot about that.

The Hawkes line struck me more as Hawkes' interpretation of it. I think Danny was just bitching because Danny likes to bitch. Danny is kind of a whiner himself at times. :lol: The phone call thing was really just to pump that Coldplay song ring tone, so I've always taken it as a throwaway line anyway. All I've ever really deduced from all of that is that Danny dates, probably more than the others on the show do. But then insecure people don't like to be alone.

I've always wondered about the Coldplay thing. :lol: But Danny did dump one or the other of those girls, because he was coming onto that girl on the subway in Risk, post-Jamalot. (Or she was coming on to him, but whatever, they did hit it off.) I guess it depends on whether the girlfriend in Dancing With Fishes was the same girlfriend as in Jamalot. But he was fairly girlfriend-less by Risk, and in light of what we saw in Fishes and Jamalot, I have to think there was a reason for that.

I never really saw it that way, maybe because her interest was so obvious to me in season two, and I really think it was what sparked his. I think it was more that he needed to see that she did in fact want him. The season four thing does really kind of baffle me...it was obvious that he lost interest, but never really obvious why.

Yeah, I was never really a fan of D/L, but beginning of S4 made me like it less, if that was possible. I agree that in S2, Lindsay's obvious interest in Danny sparked his in her, but in S2 it really seemed like a very reciprocal interest. Kind of like, "she's cute enough, and she's interested in me, let's see where this goes". But when Lindsay pulled back in S3, that's the only time Danny seemed to get more...invested, I guess. Which makes me think he might not have gotten as invested (and neither would Lindsay, for that matter) if she'd gone through with what she'd been promising in S2, so to speak.

No, but he's a guy. :lol: The approach you're talking about would be the logical one and maybe he thought if he distanced himself, she'd get the hint. Though if he was wasn't putting out I doubt she'd have fallen for him, so clearly he wasn't totally out of the relationship. I think she seemed pretty into him in "The Deep" though. I don't think it took all that long for her to fall for him after they slept together, given that she'd liked him for two seasons already.

True...I have to say that if there's one thing that has struck me, it's how very "like a regular guy" Danny is when it comes to relationships, what with things like this and then the movie-renting thing in LWFM. It just seems kind of inconsiderate, but in general, that's what a lot of relationships are like (especially when they end). And I agree that Lindsay did seem to already be falling for him in The Deep, which is another thing that makes me wish they'd just cut it off after Snow Day.

Again, I think it all speaks to Danny's low self-esteem. He kept going back even though she kept kicking him. Carmine referred to it as Danny being a "punching bag" which I thought was pretty accurate.

(BTW, the CSI Files interviews can be found here. Some of the ones talking about this stuff are older, so you have to click "More Interviews" at the bottom of the page to see them all.)

Thanks! Lol, I found the one about S3 D/L.

I don't think that Danny isn't emotionally invested in his relationships. I think he just thinks he's not good enough/can't give them what they want, so he shuts down.

But well, this is at least as immature as running away when you have a personal issue that you just don't want to deal with. Especially since I can't believe he doesn't know that it hurts the other person in the relationship when he shuts down - he's been in enough relationships to have learned that, I think. I mean, he didn't feel so good when it was Lindsay shutting him out at the end of S4.

I hope something comes to light. Danny's an incredibly damaged character, and it's hard to believe he got that way without something happening to him. Louie's protectiveness makes me think there was something worse he wasn't able to protect Danny from. The fact that that moment drove such a big wedge between the brothers tells me it wasn't the first time Danny was hurt by someone he loved.

I never thought about that interpretation, actually...huh. This makes me wonder more about how Danny's family (aside from just Louie) would've tied into Tanglewood...although *sigh again* if they're a family of cops, it doesn't seem to be as likely anymore.

The "I know you" bit was pretty harsh and judgmental in my book. As for Danny having to corner her--it's true that that's always what he has to do. I find that frustrating--it's time for her to grow up and learn that sometimes you have to talk to people when you have an issue with them, rather than running from it like a sullen teen.

Well, she did know him, or at least she knew firsthand his problems with committed relationships. There's a difference betweeen what she might've "expected" from him, and what the child had a right to expect from him. I don't think she was trying to infringe on the child's right. But as far as what she should've expected - probably things any pregnant woman would expect from the father if she was in a relationship with him. Joint visits to the doctor's office, ultrasounds, things like that. The pregnancy aspect. To me, it didn't seem like she thought Danny would be interested in those things, and it's not that surprising that she felt that way. He's always been really caring with her when they were just friends with a crush, but not so much when they were officially together (the bit that we saw of it) - then, it always seemed like she was getting the brush-off, like he was uncomfortable with the whole personal part of being with her. Getting into this...

ETA:Sorry, missed the last half of your statement again! Lol, I totally agree about Lindsay always running away. I do, however, feel that it was very in-keeping with her character, so I liked it, and the consistency.

think it was more that he wasn't comfortable in that moment, and perhaps with their relationship being out at work (he looked equally awkward when she put the condom spray in his lab coat in the previous episode).

I think he wasn't comfortable in their relationship, period. I agree about the work thing, though I do have to say that once might speak to discomfort - multiple times speaks to a pattern. [The condom-spray thing, the brush-off in the Deep, and even in Commuted Sentences, he was fine flirting around with her when they were casually testing trajectories. But when she tried to make her little "are you impressed with my slingshot skills" comment, he shut down in a similar way to how he shut down when Angell was talking about Ruben.] But going back to the pregnancy thing, she was going to be pregnant, at work. If he got involved, people were obviously going to know the kid was his, and he'd already shown he was uncomfortable with her "showing off" their relationship at work. I can't say I'm surprised she thought he wouldn't want to be involved.

As for her wanting to deal with his emotions... I thought her comment in "Child's Play" was pretty telling. I think she knew that to be with him she had to deal with them, but that she didn't know how and didn't particularly want to try.

Shouldn't her spiel in RND be more telling than her admitting to Mac that she wasn't "good at that sort of thing"? I mean, she admitted to Stella in Greater Good that she didn't think she'd be good at being a mother, that didn't mean she didn't want to try. And in RND, she wasn't exactly yelling about him going to other people, it was more focused on him not coming to her - which I don't think she would've cared about if she hadn't wanted to try in the first place.

He said something about Ruben being 10 to Angell...I don't think it's that he didn't want to talk about it; I think it's more he didn't know what to say. The enormity of it was weighing on him, as he basically said to Flack at the end of "All in the Family."

Yeah, but I don't think he was about to spill to Angell even if she had pushed. Which makes me think he wouldn't have spilled to Lindsay, either. The enormity was weighing on him, that's why I think he turned to Rikki - to alleviate the guilt and get rid of at least some of the pain. I agree he didn't know what to say in general, that's why I don't think he was interested in talking to anyone. Possibly Flack, though I wish we'd actually seen this. But aside from Flack, I don't think any amount of pushing would've made Danny talk, unless he believed talking would also get rid of the pain.

Yeah, it just made her look bad. Who does that to someone they know, and supposedly care about?

It's not just that standing him up that way made her look bad - she had to know perfectly well that it would make her look bad, and just logically, people don't do this. People don't willingly make themselves look bad in front of coworkers, let alone their crush. Unless something massively important comes up. Which means something massively important had to have come up for Lindsay, and that's why she stood him up.

I think lying is too strong a word. Fooling himself, yes, but lying implies a kind of craftiness that I don't think Danny possesses.

I don't think Danny's purposely lying just to keep Lucy. But I don't know...I'm not really seeing it as that he's fooling himself either, because I think his "I love yous" would sound a little more sincere if he at least believed that he meant them. They sound more like he's trying to make himself believe that he means it, which just tells me he knows he doesn't love her.

Flack treats her like more of a guy than he treats Danny, I think! He calls her by her last name and gets huffy when she teases him. Whereas with Danny, he's much gentler and almost chivalrous (he once lifted up the crime scene tape for Danny!). I just don't see it between Flack and Lindsay--I don't think he hates her, but there's always been a bit of an undercurrent of snark in a lot of his dealings with her.

Yeah, I actually agree with this - it's why I find them so funny (because I can't think of anyone else Flack actually gets huffy with). It's not really about the chivalry with them, it seems to be more about trying to unsettle the other, but I doubt it's in a malicious way. They're snarky with each other (I feel I should point out that he only tends to call her Monroe when they're actually being snarky with each other), but they still laugh together. They do seem to...well, try harder when it comes to the other, though I think it's for Danny's sake. I mean, we all know how coolly professional Lindsay's interactions with so many of the other characters tend to be, but there's almost always that undercurrent of humour when she's interacting with Flack. And I'm trying to think of anyone else on the team, save for Danny, who Flack lets needle him that much. I'm drawing a blank. Even with Hawkes, it usually seems to be Flack teasing him, not the other way around. And Stella, who seems to be like a sister to him, doesn't seem to tease him half as much.

At the same time there seems to be a lot of respect between them, especially when it comes to Danny. There was Lindsay going to Flack in All in the Family. And there was Flack warning Lindsay in Snow Day that Danny "didn't sound good" in the hostage situation. I know he might've told the same thing to anyone else from the team who'd approached him, but I always liked that scene because he didn't keep Lindsay on a strictly "need-to-know" basis. He had no way of knowing at that point that Lindsay and Danny had already hooked up. He wasn't just responding to a perception of Lindsay being Danny's girlfriend. It seemed like he was acknowledging that Lindsay would care enough to want to know, even though D/L weren't an item then, and I think that says something.

I'm not exactly saying that I see it between them in the show, but I think I could. A lot of the fanfics I've read about them are good enough to make it believable.

 

[Top41]

I've always wondered about the Coldplay thing. :lol: But Danny did dump one or the other of those girls, because he was coming onto that girl on the subway in Risk, post-Jamalot. (Or she was coming on to him, but whatever, they did hit it off.) I guess it depends on whether the girlfriend in Dancing With Fishes was the same girlfriend as in Jamalot. But he was fairly girlfriend-less by Risk, and in light of what we saw in Fishes and Jamalot, I have to think there was a reason for that.

Well, people have break-ups...we don't know enough to know whether Danny did the dumping or got dumped. I've never seen Danny as being all that confident with women...that woman on the train in "Risk" was seriously undressing him with her eyes before he walked over to her. But it did set a precedent for Danny responding to someone's interest in him, rather than being the pursuer.

Yeah, I was never really a fan of D/L, but beginning of S4 made me like it less, if that was possible. I agree that in S2, Lindsay's obvious interest in Danny sparked his in her, but in S2 it really seemed like a very reciprocal interest. Kind of like, "she's cute enough, and she's interested in me, let's see where this goes". But when Lindsay pulled back in S3, that's the only time Danny seemed to get more...invested, I guess. Which makes me think he might not have gotten as invested (and neither would Lindsay, for that matter) if she'd gone through with what she'd been promising in S2, so to speak.

Maybe, maybe not. Danny seems more passive when it comes to responding to people's interest in him. Again, he didn't seem that invested until she flat out told him that she was...and that's when he decided to make an effort in their relationship. Maybe he thought she'd tire of him and was protecting himself before that happened.

But well, this is at least as immature as running away when you have a personal issue that you just don't want to deal with. Especially since I can't believe he doesn't know that it hurts the other person in the relationship when he shuts down - he's been in enough relationships to have learned that, I think. I mean, he didn't feel so good when it was Lindsay shutting him out at the end of S4.

With Danny, I don't think it's a totally conscious thing. He wasn't shutting her out so much as shying away from her attention. Her running away and avoiding him seems much more active.

Well, she did know him, or at least she knew firsthand his problems with committed relationships. There's a difference betweeen what she might've "expected" from him, and what the child had a right to expect from him. I don't think she was trying to infringe on the child's right. But as far as what she should've expected - probably things any pregnant woman would expect from the father if she was in a relationship with him. Joint visits to the doctor's office, ultrasounds, things like that. The pregnancy aspect. To me, it didn't seem like she thought Danny would be interested in those things, and it's not that surprising that she felt that way. He's always been really caring with her when they were just friends with a crush, but not so much when they were officially together (the bit that we saw of it) - then, it always seemed like she was getting the brush-off, like he was uncomfortable with the whole personal part of being with her. Getting into this...

Again, I think it's too broad to assume anything about what he's like in committed relationships. Their relationship seemed pretty undefined to both of them. I don't think he was uncaring towards her when they were together so much as he was trying to grapple with a huge tragedy in his life and she wasn't there for him. He couldn't worry about her birthday in the face of the loss of Ruben. She didn't have any crisis in season four, aside from him not going to her with his problems.

I think he wasn't comfortable in their relationship, period. I agree about the work thing, though I do have to say that once might speak to discomfort - multiple times speaks to a pattern. [The condom-spray thing, the brush-off in the Deep, and even in Commuted Sentences, he was fine flirting around with her when they were casually testing trajectories. But when she tried to make her little "are you impressed with my slingshot skills" comment, he shut down in a similar way to how he shut down when Angell was talking about Ruben.] But going back to the pregnancy thing, she was going to be pregnant, at work. If he got involved, people were obviously going to know the kid was his, and he'd already shown he was uncomfortable with her "showing off" their relationship at work. I can't say I'm surprised she thought he wouldn't want to be involved.

I think it's different for him to be uncomfortable with her flirting with him at work and for him to not take responsibility for a child he was equally responsible for creating.

Shouldn't her spiel in RND be more telling than her admitting to Mac that she wasn't "good at that sort of thing"? I mean, she admitted to Stella in Greater Good that she didn't think she'd be good at being a mother, that didn't mean she didn't want to try. And in RND, she wasn't exactly yelling about him going to other people, it was more focused on him not coming to her - which I don't think she would've cared about if she hadn't wanted to try in the first place.

Yeah, but talk about a mixed message--"I want to try to help you, but only if you come to me! I'm not going to reach out to you." I think she thought she wanted to try, but I'm not sure she really actually did want to try, if that makes sense.

Yeah, but I don't think he was about to spill to Angell even if she had pushed. Which makes me think he wouldn't have spilled to Lindsay, either. The enormity was weighing on him, that's why I think he turned to Rikki - to alleviate the guilt and get rid of at least some of the pain. I agree he didn't know what to say in general, that's why I don't think he was interested in talking to anyone. Possibly Flack, though I wish we'd actually seen this. But aside from Flack, I don't think any amount of pushing would've made Danny talk, unless he believed talking would also get rid of the pain.

Maybe Danny wasn't ready to talk about it? I'm not sure. I know he didn't totally turn away from anyone who went to him, though... and that we never saw a single scene of Lindsay going to him to make an attempt. If she'd made an attempt and then he'd shut her out, then she'd have a legitimate complaint.

It's not just that standing him up that way made her look bad - she had to know perfectly well that it would make her look bad, and just logically, people don't do this. People don't willingly make themselves look bad in front of coworkers, let alone their crush. Unless something massively important comes up. Which means something massively important had to have come up for Lindsay, and that's why she stood him up.

I think that's an assumption, since we never found out anything to that effect on screen.

I don't think Danny's purposely lying just to keep Lucy. But I don't know...I'm not really seeing it as that he's fooling himself either, because I think his "I love yous" would sound a little more sincere if he at least believed that he meant them. They sound more like he's trying to make himself believe that he means it, which just tells me he knows he doesn't love her.

I imagine he wants it to be true. I'm sure on some level he knows he doesn't, but maybe he hopes he will in time. He was so excited about Lindsay being pregnant...I think it's obvious he loved his child right from the start. But Lindsay has always made it a battle for him to convince her of anything, so that's probably part of why he sounds so desperate to get her to believe him.

Yeah, I actually agree with this - it's why I find them so funny (because I can't think of anyone else Flack actually gets huffy with). It's not really about the chivalry with them, it seems to be more about trying to unsettle the other, but I doubt it's in a malicious way. They're snarky with each other (I feel I should point out that he only tends to call her Monroe when they're actually being snarky with each other), but they still laugh together. They do seem to...well, try harder when it comes to the other, though I think it's for Danny's sake. I mean, we all know how coolly professional Lindsay's interactions with so many of the other characters tend to be, but there's almost always that undercurrent of humour when she's interacting with Flack. And I'm trying to think of anyone else on the team, save for Danny, who Flack lets needle him that much. I'm drawing a blank. Even with Hawkes, it usually seems to be Flack teasing him, not the other way around. And Stella, who seems to be like a sister to him, doesn't seem to tease him half as much.

Oh, I don't know--I think Stella teases Flack plenty. But I do agree that Lindsay and Flack try harder with each other because of Danny. I guess that's why I don't really see anything romantic between them...I think their link is Danny and they both know it.

At the same time there seems to be a lot of respect between them, especially when it comes to Danny. There was Lindsay going to Flack in All in the Family. And there was Flack warning Lindsay in Snow Day that Danny "didn't sound good" in the hostage situation. I know he might've told the same thing to anyone else from the team who'd approached him, but I always liked that scene because he didn't keep Lindsay on a strictly "need-to-know" basis. He had no way of knowing at that point that Lindsay and Danny had already hooked up. He wasn't just responding to a perception of Lindsay being Danny's girlfriend. It seemed like he was acknowledging that Lindsay would care enough to want to know, even though D/L weren't an item then, and I think that says something.

I think that was more Flack sharing his concern over Danny with someone he knew would be equally concerned. I don't think the end of "Snow Day" went particularly well... she literally dragged Danny away from Flack while Flack was trying to call EMS over to help Danny. It seemed like a moment where she was staking a claim on Danny that she thought took precedence over Flack's.