Eric/Calleigh romance - why we dislike it. **spoilers**

[luvcsimiami]

However, like I said in my other thread, they have hyped it up so much the last two seasons it doesn't seem quite right to dedicate two episodes to it and be done with it when the E/C fans have waited so long to see it come to fruition

I don't see why the rest of the fans & the entire viewing audience should have to suffer just because some fans have waited so long to see it. You've gotten to see it, in almost every episode & every scene in the past 2 seasons! It doesn't matter that they weren't official yet - the fact is they have still used the past 2 seasons to already show the gist of this relationship - it was explored, they're in love (as were supposed to believe), ok , so what now? Now after they've spent the last 2 years in our faces we have to continue seeing them jumping obstacles just because it's what some fans want.
A personal arc is fine & dandy when used & played properly, but after a while, the show must go on - characters need new stories to further develop them, they need cases to work on that will bring them depth & emotion. A romantic storyline is only going to get them so far, & as long as these 2 characters are IN a romantic storyline - that is what will be more of the spotlight when it comes to these particular characters.
IMO, there just isn't that much more to do with them without turning this show further into a soap opera, & while the E/C fans are all in their glory over it, that's fine - BUT if it continues to be this way, it's going to appaul the other viewers, as it's already done.

ROTFLOL. Okay. I get it. It's annoying to the fans who are sick of the storyline. Actually not having been a GSR fan I can totally relate and I have to applaud you for sticking with it since I wasn't so generous with CSI and just stopped watching after they put GSR together. I will shut up about wanting to see more.

As far as the rule & selfishness goes - I never said they should be given an ultimatum. The thing is, this is not a show that's based on the character's personal lives with the team/job taking the backseat - this show is SUPPOSED to be about them as a team, so I do think there is a huge difference with this situation opposed to a couple in real life.

Lately, the team doesn't even look like a team. It's Horatio as the boss who digs in when he needs to; Eric & Calleigh as the team; & Ryan & Natalia are just the "helpers" - there doesn't seem to be any connection there, & what is truly sad is that TPTB actually DID have a connection between all these characters at one time. There are other relationships on this show than just e/c. - Eric/Ryan, Eric/Natalia, Calleigh/Horatio, Calleigh/Ryan, Calleigh/Natalia, Natalia/Ryan, Natalia/Horatio.
They all do have some sort of closeness, bond & connection there - it really aggravates me to see that TPTB make it out as if Eric & Calleigh can only rely on each other. Yeah, sell it elsewhere.

All excellent points and you're exactly right there is definately more than one relationship going on here. As I said to great fan I do tend to get tunnel vision because I'm not a big Natalia or Ryan fan...more so Ryan than Natalia because they make him out to be out for himself a lot of the times but I must say that has gotten better. It would actually be cool to see a storyline explaining how and why he tends to revert to this annoying behavior every so often. Natalia has gotten a lot better and it's because she's gotten more stories to develop her character so beleive me I do get what you're saying. I think with all the hype from the ads, the fans, and then the promos it would be a bit much for those who just hate the storyline altogether. I guess I feel like E/C are getting slammed a lot for some just plain badly written crap but regardless of why TPTB needs to let it alone for awhile or there just might be a mutiny from the fans who hate it

That being said I think after next week's episode they've done enough for a while and can come back to it sometime in S8 with the repercussions.

I highly doubt that. We have them in next week's promo, then in epi 19, & in epi 20, which is even worse considering that is Ryan's centric episode - it shouldn't even be there as far as I'm concerned.
Most likely this will all be in our face up to finale.

Ok, I have mixed feelings about that. It depends on how they have written it. So I'll reserve judgement until I see it but I have to admit it doesn't sound like good news to someone who is an E/C fan. That's too much. We saw them get together, we saw the kiss, we're going to see something that I think is downright tacky (mile high club crap) next week so enough is enough. I for one hope you're wrong, mjszud. That does make it more of a soap opera and not the CSI Miami I like. As you said the show is about the team. I want them to go back to the glimpses of life outside the team, E/C relationship included and spend most of their focus on the team.

Please don't blast me

I don't bash posters, & I wouldn't ever want you to think that I am.
I feel very strongly about the issues in this thread, & I've sat on a lot of these thoughts for 2 years now, as most of us here have. We don't share the same opinion that e/c fans do & that is something that just can't be debated. I don't mind the ongoing discussion, however, there is nothing one can say positive about this couple that will change my mind about them.

Thanks for being so patient. I was by no means trying to change your mind just wanted to jump in as I happen to be somewhat in the middle. I can see both sides of the issues and do agree there needs to be a happy medium. If they're going to do the relationship they don't need to jack it up and they don't need to shove it down people's throats. I guess I need to go back and watch S5 and S6 because while I feel like E got a lot of screen time I guess I didn't think the E/C thing did other than a few glimpses here and there to try to sell the relationship thing in S7. For myself I sincerely apologize for you guys having to put up with the mush and gush for two years. Having felt the same exact way about GSR as you did about E/C I do understand.

The show has remained successful since Speed left and the other cast members joined,which has been several seasons so I don't see why the original 3 need to be utilized to the point that the other characters are not used to their full potential. The show was a sucess before the pairing with the same characters that they are now underusing.
Everyone is just not interested in the "original " three only. Some actually started watching the show because of the other characters.

Very good point, Greatfan. Which is why I don't believe that TPTB need to be so desperate in keeping this E/C story going & going.[/quote]

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

luvcsimiami, you can edit your posts until 24hrs after you've posted it, that way you don't have to make two posts in a row. I figured you might not realize this since you're new. By the way, welcome to the site.

Calleigh used to be my second favorite character (after Ryan who is basically the reason I started watching the show full time- well the actor is anyway cause I was a fan of his from Special Unit 2), but the way the writers have written her lately has really bothered me. I don't want to bash the character or anything, but I'm highly upset with the writers for those times they did make her seem callous (the times you mentioned with the horse guy and all of that). This isn't who Calleigh is, so it was way out of character. I think they could have written this romance without making Calleigh look that way. The only reason they wrote her that way was to further drag out the whole "will they or wont they" scenario.

As for one of them changing shifts if they are forced to, I really hope they don't do that. I feel like that would be a ripoff of the Gris/Sara thing on CSI. Sara had to change shifts after her romance with Grissom was revealed. I feel that Miami has been ripping off enough of Vegas' storylines lately. The gambling thing with Ryan was basically a rewrite of Warrick's gambling storyline. The Ryan arc in ep 720 is basically a rewrite of Greg's storyline in Fannysmacking. The thing in Monday's episode with Horatio showing Kyle the dead body to scare him into never driving fast again is basically a rewrite of Cath showing her daughter a dead body in order to scare her into not hitchiking or whatever. I'm getting really annoyed with the rewrites from the other show.

If Calleigh was promoted to supervisor of another shift, wouldn't that be too much like when Ecklie split the Vegas team and made Cath supervisor of the swing shift? Although when Vegas did that, we didn't get any new characters. (although when Sara was switched to the other shift after her and Gil's romance came out, we did get one new character, Ronnie Lake). Maybe if Calleigh does get supervisor of another shift, we'll get to see some new CSI characters (more than one).

 

[Ginnna]

However, like I said in my other thread, they have hyped it up so much the last two seasons it doesn't seem quite right to dedicate two episodes to it and be done with it when the E/C fans have waited so long to see it come to fruition

I don't see why the rest of the fans & the entire viewing audience should have to suffer just because some fans have waited so long to see it. You've gotten to see it, in almost every episode & every scene in the past 2 seasons! It doesn't matter that they weren't official yet - the fact is they have still used the past 2 seasons to already show the gist of this relationship - it was explored, they're in love (as were supposed to believe), ok , so what now? Now after they've spent the last 2 years in our faces we have to continue seeing them jumping obstacles just because it's what some fans want.
A personal arc is fine & dandy when used & played properly, but after a while, the show must go on - characters need new stories to further develop them, they need cases to work on that will bring them depth & emotion. A romantic storyline is only going to get them so far, & as long as these 2 characters are IN a romantic storyline - that is what will be more of the spotlight when it comes to these particular characters.
IMO, there just isn't that much more to do with them without turning this show further into a soap opera, & while the E/C fans are all in their glory over it, that's fine - BUT if it continues to be this way, it's going to appaul the other viewers, as it's already done.

How many fans should the writers cater to? As far as I can tell, it's insulting to you that they cater to some fans, so should they cater only when they've discovered unanimous consensus among their fans, or should they never ever cater, not ever? Or is it acceptable to cater to some fans, but not to certain fans? I'm rather confused about where you stand on this issue, so if you could clarify your feelings on the matter, I'd appreciate it. I don't want to argue about it, I simply want clarification.

Also, I'm not sure what you want to happen. Yes, this ship has been years in the making. Yes, they're together now. What I can't quite figure out is what it is you're implying you'd like to happen now. That the relationship fade into the background completely, never to be heard from again? That E/C breaks up before the end of the season? If you don't want it "in your face" anymore, what do you want? You say "the show must go on" and that romantic storylines are just no good... so what's your take on the direction in which the E/C romance (of which I realize you disapprove) should be taken now that it's finally gone canon (as of a couple weeks ago)?

I know that you ship E/N and C/J. That's fine. To each his own, as the mods say. I don't like C/J and I'm alright with E/N, but that's just where I stand. Would you want those ships to go canon again (because I'm fairly certain that I've seen you express a desire for them to go canon again in their respective threads)? If so, how should those romances be handled? What kind of consideration should be given to those who speak out against those ships? Should the writers care as much about objections against those ships as they should care about the objections against E/C?

I'm asking all of these questions NOT because I want to argue or debate about it. I just want the answers from you. That's all. These are honest questions and all I'm looking to get in return is honest answers.

As far as the rule & selfishness goes - I never said they should be given an ultimatum. The thing is, this is not a show that's based on the character's personal lives with the team/job taking the backseat - this show is SUPPOSED to be about them as a team, so I do think there is a huge difference with this situation opposed to a couple in real life.

It is a little bit about their personal lives. They don't sleep in the lab. They don't eat and breath crime scene evidence. They're people. Yes, that includes their interaction as a professional team, but that should also include their feelings as human beings. If it was never once at least suggested to me that these characters experience non-work-related feelings like the rest of us, I wouldn't react to them as much as I do now. I would feel more disconnected from them. I would wonder if the writers ever intended on representing these characters as full blown people instead of "the job". I mean, even in Law & Order: Criminal Intent, the two main characters, Goren and Eames, have talked about past loves or current endeavors to find love. It's a police procedural and the characters are fantastic without involving romance, but it's relieving to find out that they feel like the rest of us.

Lately, the team doesn't even look like a team. It's Horatio as the boss who digs in when he needs to; Eric & Calleigh as the team; & Ryan & Natalia are just the "helpers" - there doesn't seem to be any connection there, & what is truly sad is that TPTB actually DID have a connection between all these characters at one time. There are other relationships on this show than just e/c. - Eric/Ryan, Eric/Natalia, Calleigh/Horatio, Calleigh/Ryan, Calleigh/Natalia, Natalia/Ryan, Natalia/Horatio.
They all do have some sort of closeness, bond & connection there - it really aggravates me to see that TPTB make it out as if Eric & Calleigh can only rely on each other.

I've agreed before and I'll agree again. Give Ryan, Natalia, Tripp, Maxine, etc, more screen time. Give the actual team dynamic back to us. Give us more friendship and bonding and snarking and conflict and everything that makes them the group of different yet dedicated CSIs that they are.

...there is nothing one can say positive about this couple that will change my mind about them.

That's too bad. I've been persuaded to "come around", to see the merits in ships I once thought I'd never like. But again, to each his/her own. If you've determined that you're against this ship and nothing on earth is going to sway you, that's a personal choice and it's fine with me.

 

[luvcsimiami]

GregNickRyanFan,

OMG thank you so much. No, I didn't know that I appreciate the heads up. Sorry for taking up so much space.

Agree with you totally about Calleigh. This was a disservice to her character and I hope they stay away from this crap in the future. She never struck me as the callous type and especially not something she would do to Delko. They need to not go there again with that.

As for Ryan I liked him at first but then he took credit for something Delko did and it went downhill from there. He constantly makes assumptions and they never really show him learning his lesson all that much. Just when you think he's got it he goes and does something that totally messes him up again so I've never really fully cared for his character. Although he can be serious comic relief sometimes. He does get some great one liners. Especially some of his interactions with Frank.

Actually I didn't realize just how many lines were ripped from Vegas until you pointed them out. Good Lord, these guys need some new material.

As for the night shift thing that's a good point. I didn't realize that's what they did with Gris and Sara and I'm hoping CSI Miami will be more original I really hope they will try to stick with it and make the relationship work and not do something stupid like have the characters turn on each other or fizzle out just to cop out on the relationship. Oh well all we can do is wait and see and for those who don't want to see it I for one hope they don't keep it in the forefront too much longer -- background is just fine as long as it's there....

 

[greatfan]

As for Ryan I liked him at first but then he took credit for something Delko did and it went downhill from there. He constantly makes assumptions and they never really show him learning his lesson all that much. Just when you think he's got it he goes and does something that totally messes him up again so I've never really fully cared for his character. Although he can be serious comic relief sometimes. He does get some great one liners. Especially some of his interactions with Frank.

Ryan has indeed made mistakes,as has Delko,they are both characters with a fan following and Ryan's fans want his character(as well as Natalia's and Frank) to get decent screen time.Perhaps Ryan's mistakes and what he learns from them are part of future development ,who knows.I do know from watching this show from the begining that Eric made some serious mistakes as well,and I still don't see him as some knight in shiney armour .The fact that Ryan has made mistakes shouldn't effect his screen time.His character as well as others just have the greatest potential,and some of the viewers really would like to see that also.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

I get the feeling that we're gonna have sort of a Friends-like storyline here. Remember on Friends when Monica and Chandler tried to keep their romance a secret and each of the others friends found out about it one by one? :lol: I could see Miami doing that. :lol: Does anyone else get that feeling? I mean, it's clear that Ryan suspects that there's something happening between E/C. I think Frank does as well. Everyone else seems to be either clueless or oblivious. :lol:

 

[mjszud]

How many fans should the writers cater to?

I don't think they should CATER to anyone. I like seeing creativity in what THE WRITERS want to write, & what the showrunners want to see come out of thier show & thier characters - I don't watch Miami for fanfiction, & that's what it has felt like. With E/C I do feel that it was more fans than what TPTB originally had mapped out to do. If it had always been the initial plan, then I personally don't think they would have had to completely change the way they had already written these characters to make them fit each other now after all these years.
TPTB can feel free to feed me all the garbage they want in telling me that this was a long time goal of theirs - I simply will not ever believe it - not by what I have seen take place on this show for the first 5 years....not to mention that word was they had this "idea" for Calleigh & Horatio at one time as well. I can't possibly think that it had nothing to do with fans considering it's always what I hear during EP & AR interviews - that is where I do feel insulted, not only for myself, but for everyone else to doesn't care for this romance.
I think it's wise they touch base with what the fans might want to see, but I do not think it's necessary that they disrupt the aspect & interaction while doing it, & yes I think it has already gotten to that point.

Also, I'm not sure what you want to happen. Yes, this ship has been years in the making. Yes, they're together now. What I can't quite figure out is what it is you're implying you'd like to happen now. That the relationship fade into the background completely, never to be heard from again? That E/C breaks up before the end of the season? If you don't want it "in your face" anymore, what do you want?

Honestly? They could both lapse into a coma & I would be quite happy.
I've just had enough of thier drama, plain & simple. They aren't what I want to see right now - in a relationship or out of one!
TPTB have managed to break down relationships before...so...they can be my guest at this one.

I know that you ship E/N and C/J. That's fine. To each his own, as the mods say. I don't like C/J and I'm alright with E/N, but that's just where I stand. Would you want those ships to go canon again (because I'm fairly certain that I've seen you express a desire for them to go canon again in their respective threads)? If so, how should those romances be handled? What kind of consideration should be given to those who speak out against those ships?

Yes, I do have my ships that I enjoy, & part of what I really enjoyed was that it wasn't in every episode, & not nearly as in my face. As far as going canon again for C/J - I've lost so much respect for Calleigh that I really don't know what I would want between them now. For E/N, yes I absolutely feel that they should be given the chance to delve deeper into the relationship that had already started between them. I've made notes in my threads also that I don't want it in my face though - I also wouldn't want it anytime soon, only because I've had my fair share of the romance taking over this show already. I do watch the show for other reasons aside from romances.

Should the writers care as much about objections against those ships as they should care about the objections against E/C?

It all depends on reasons behind WHY the ship is being objected. As you can see from these posts, the objections against e/c is about other things that actually are effecting the show other than just -"we don't like them" or "it isn't fair, we wanted [insert ship here]". I'm quite sure that's the sort of objections TPTB had to listen to during season 4.

 

[Ginnna]

I don't think they should CATER to anyone. I like seeing creativity in what THE WRITERS want to write, & what the showrunners want to see come out of thier show & thier characters - I don't watch Miami for fanfiction, & that's what it has felt like. With E/C I do feel that it was more fans than what TPTB originally had mapped out to do.

Tell me if I understand your meaning correctly:

"They (the writers and show runners) shouldn't attempt to tweak or change their plans in order to appeal to the fanbase or any portion thereof, but rather should be creative in whatever way pleases them regardless of how any number of fans, great or small, may react."

If it had always been the initial plan, then I personally don't think they would have had to completely change the way they had already written these characters to make them fit each other now after all these years.

Perhaps the plan was to put them together AFTER major life and personality changes had occurred. I'm not trying to be belligerent, just saying that it's a possibility.

TPTB can feel free to feed me all the garbage they want in telling me that this was a long time goal of theirs - I simply will not ever believe it - not by what I have seen take place on this show for the first 5 years....not to mention that word was they had this "idea" for Calleigh & Horatio at one time as well. I can't possibly think that it had nothing to do with fans considering it's always what I hear during EP & AR interviews - that is where I do feel insulted, not only for myself, but for everyone else to doesn't care for this romance.

Since TPTB are basically the lord and master of the CSI Universe, I tend to believe them when they say "we've had ideas and plans all along - some we've put into motion, some we haven't". Like you, I don't think the exact progression of the show had nothing to do with fans. I think fan reactions may have promted them to tweak the timing of their plans or to alter the way certain plans would be brought to fruition. I don't think that fans have enough power over the writers to basically corner them into writing a romance where it was never ever intended to be, after which the writers would lie about their original intentions. I think actress pregnancies make plot/romance changes necessary (see Danny/Lindsay), and I think personal problems and failed negotiations may prompt cast changes (see Warrick Brown and Sara Sidle), but again, I don't think fans have THAT much power.

Obviously you think otherwise. *shrug* OK. We believe different things about the writers.

I think it's wise they touch base with what the fans might want to see, but I do not think it's necessary that they disrupt the aspect & interaction while doing it, & yes I think it has already gotten to that point.

Why should they "touch base with what the fans might want to see" if they should not ever ever cater to the fans? This seems like a discrepancy. Have I not understood you correctly?

If you don't want it "in your face" anymore, what do you want?

Honestly? They could both lapse into a coma & I would be quite happy.
I've just had enough of thier drama, plain & simple. They aren't what I want to see right now - in a relationship or out of one!
TPTB have managed to break down relationships before...so...they can be my guest at this one.

For E/N, yes I absolutely feel that they should be given the chance to delve deeper into the relationship that had already started between them. I've made notes in my threads also that I don't want it in my face though - I also wouldn't want it anytime soon, only because I've had my fair share of the romance taking over this show already.

You want the E/C relationship to break down, then. How soon? And how soon after that would you want Eric and Natalia to get back together? You don't want them together immediately, so... beginning of next season? Middle of next season? Just wondering.

Also, how does your desire for E/N to (eventually) go canon work with your assertion that romantic storylines in a show like this are redundant and restrictive? By the way, if that's not the jist of your assertion, let me know. I don't want to misrepresent what you've said.

Should the writers care as much about objections against those ships as they should care about the objections against E/C?

It all depends on reasons behind WHY the ship is being objected. As you can see from these posts, the objections against e/c is about other things that actually are effecting the show other than just -"we don't like them" or "it isn't fair, we wanted [insert ship here]". I'm quite sure that's the sort of objections TPTB had to listen to during season 4.

The objections should have something to do with how the romance effects the show rather than the romance in and of itself?

 

[Delynn]

Perhaps the plan was to put them together AFTER major life and personality changes had occurred. I'm not trying to be belligerent, just saying that it's a possibility.

And perhaps it wasn't. I agree with mjszud. If the E/C romance was planned from the beginning they wouldn't have had to completely change the characters to force this romance scenario. Like mjszud, I also heard that in the first couple of seasons H/C was seriously considered.

Since TPTB are basically the lord and master of the CSI Universe, I tend to believe them when they say "we've had ideas and plans all along - some we've put into motion, some we haven't". Like you, I don't think the exact progression of the show had nothing to do with fans. I think fan reactions may have promted them to tweak the timing of their plans or to alter the way certain plans would be brought to fruition. I don't think that fans have enough power over the writers to basically corner them into writing a romance where it was never ever intended to be, after which the writers would lie about their original intentions. I think actress pregnancies make plot/romance changes necessary (see Danny/Lindsay), and I think personal problems and failed negotiations may prompt cast changes (see Warrick Brown and Sara Sidle), but again, I don't think fans have THAT much power.

Just curious. If it wasn't your 'ship that had just come in and being promoted from every mountain top, would you still be so quick to believe and defend everything TPTB say?

I believe TPTB are trying to bring in the target demographic. That demographic is the 18-49 age group. That is who the E/C relationship is aimed at. They could care less how any fan who doesn't fit into that demographic feels about anything they do. That's just life. It's not their fault and it's not ours. That the age group the advertisers want to reach. It's the bottom dollar.

I would hazard a guess if you were to take a poll of the age group of most E/C shippers you would find that most are tweeners - teenage/young adult women. That's who they are trying to please right now. Not only do they fit into the demographic, they are also the most vocal group in support of this particular 'ship.

You want the E/C relationship to break down, then. How soon? And how soon after that would you want Eric and Natalia to get back together? You don't want them together immediately, so... beginning of next season? Middle of next season? Just wondering.

I know that question is intended for mjszud, but it truly and sincerely doesn't matter what the we who don't care for the E/C 'ship want. And since I'm not in support of any 'ship, if they were to end this relationship I'd prefer that they get back to business.

You know, I really don't see the individuals who dislike the E/C 'ship as trying to get shippers to reconsider or change their minds about something the shippers see as a wonderful event.

I might not have minded these two getting together if doing so hadn't meant the total destruction of the characters I'd grown to care and respect, as well as the destruction of the team. The team doesn't even exist any more because apparently it's more important to hook Calleigh and Eric up.

I don't know that anything they can do would turn that around for me now. I completely, totally and intensely dislike this E/C hook up. I don't know that I'll ever respect Calleigh again. It's reached a point where, for me, it's difficult to even watch scenes with her character - with or without Eric. And I'm well on the way to feeling the same way about Eric.

As has been stated multiple times throughout this thread, people who dislike the E/C ship have indicated numerous reasons we feel are valid for feeling the way we do.

Just as the shippers have.

 

[mjszud]

I feel like I'm running circles here.

Tell me if I understand your meaning correctly:

"They (the writers and show runners) shouldn't attempt to tweak or change their plans in order to appeal to the fanbase or any portion thereof, but rather should be creative in whatever way pleases them regardless of how any number of fans, great or small, may react."

Tweak, yes. Change dramatically, no.

I don't think fans have THAT much power.

I didn't necessarily say that fans have that power. It came off to me that TPTB became desperate....maybe to keep thier ratings, or maybe to keep up with the other CSI shows - I don't really know, but the way they have pushed, teased, & milked it the way they have - yes I do think to some extent they felt they needed a "jump the shark" moment, & e/c fans were vocal, so this is what TPTB resorted to.

Why should they "touch base with what the fans might want to see" if they should not ever ever cater to the fans? This seems like a discrepancy. Have I not understood you correctly?

Touching base with what vocal fans want would be like how a lot of people wanted to see Horatio back doing lab work, & we've seen more of it now, but TPTB are still continuing to develop him the way that they intended - it's touching base with something fans speak of wanting, but not to extent of fully delivering what it is they all want.

Touching base would also be like fans who wanted to see a couple interact more....like there are a lot of fans who love the interaction between Ryan & Calleigh - touching base with that would be to throw them "bones" every now & again with a few meaningful & fun scenes...the kind of stuff they would want to see even if they couldn't have them romantically involved.

Catering is more or less giving the fans everything they desire & that I don't think any show should do.....do you see the difference now?

You want the E/C relationship to break down, then. How soon? And how soon after that would you want Eric and Natalia to get back together? You don't want them together immediately, so... beginning of next season? Middle of next season? Just wondering.

Sorry, but I'm not going to get into that discussion here. It doesn't belong in this thread. My thoughts are usually in that designated thread - you'll find them there.

Also, how does your desire for E/N to (eventually) go canon work with your assertion that romantic storylines in a show like this are redundant and restrictive? By the way, if that's not the jist of your assertion, let me know. I don't want to misrepresent what you've said.

I think you've just misunderstood me. I don't think ALL romantic storylines should be excluded from crime shows. However, when it comes to a romantic storyline that has interfered with other things (the list goes on in here) then I do find it to be crossing that line between crime show & soap opera. I'm sorry if you don't understand that.
I think it's fine to put forward a romance that is subtle & in the background as long as it isn't what is "front page" of the CSI:Miami series, & as long as it doesn't take away the other characters screentime & interaction.

When it's something that is that focused on, the love story has already been written & has come to a complete head - then that is when I see that it becomes redundant for this type of show to throw out the back & forth obstacles for said couple. Yes, E/N had thier share of a few conflicts, but the relationship in itself didn't fully develop & that's where I see a difference in terms of a couple becoming redundant.

H/Y carried on for years as well, & amounted to nothing but her leaving. Do I think it would be redundant to allow some exploring with those 2 later on? Absolutely NOT - there is still something there that could & needs to be fully explored with that part of Miami's "story".
& I don't even ship them, but I do see it as part of the entire picture & I wouldn't be appauled if they finally had them figuring out where they stand in each others lives....that is if it didn't take the show away, of course.
Do you see what I'm getting at here? I hope so, cause to tell you the truth I have a very bad headache now.

 

[Ginnna]

Perhaps the plan was to put them together AFTER major life and personality changes had occurred. I'm not trying to be belligerent, just saying that it's a possibility.

And perhaps it wasn't. I agree with mjszud. If the E/C romance was planned from the beginning they wouldn't have had to completely change the characters to force this romance scenario. Like mjszud, I also heard that in the first couple of seasons H/C was seriously considered.

Yep. That's why I went with "possibility".

Can't say I agree with the claim that these two characters have "completely changed" or that the ship seems "forced", so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Since TPTB are basically the lord and master of the CSI Universe, I tend to believe them when they say "we've had ideas and plans all along - some we've put into motion, some we haven't". Like you, I don't think the exact progression of the show had nothing to do with fans. I think fan reactions may have promted them to tweak the timing of their plans or to alter the way certain plans would be brought to fruition. I don't think that fans have enough power over the writers to basically corner them into writing a romance where it was never ever intended to be, after which the writers would lie about their original intentions. I think actress pregnancies make plot/romance changes necessary (see Danny/Lindsay), and I think personal problems and failed negotiations may prompt cast changes (see Warrick Brown and Sara Sidle), but again, I don't think fans have THAT much power.

Just curious. If it wasn't your 'ship that had just come in and being promoted from every mountain top, would you still be so quick to believe and defend everything TPTB say?

Yep. I'll defend what they say but not necessarily what they've done. I didn't like H/M. Thought it came straight out of left field and was nothing more than a major plot device for H and Eric. I don't read or watch much media on CSI Miami so I don't know what the writers had to say about it, or what kind of promos/interviews we got, but if the writers said that they intended for it to be a genuine romance, I'd believe them. That doesn't mean I'd be convinced to feel as though it was a true romance, but I'd take them at their word - that their intentions went one way and I reacted in another way.

I believe TPTB are trying to bring in the target demographic. That demographic is the 18-49 age group. That is who the E/C relationship is aimed at. They could care less how any fan who doesn't fit into that demographic feels about anything they do. That's just life. It's not their fault and it's not ours. That the age group the advertisers want to reach. It's the bottom dollar.

I would hazard a guess if you were to take a poll of the age group of most E/C shippers you would find that most are tweeners - teenage/young adult women. That's who they are trying to please right now. Not only do they fit into the demographic, they are also the most vocal group in support of this particular 'ship.

I agree that they're trying to create a show that a lot of people will watch. I agree that they're trying to include elements that will appeal to a broad fan base and to particular demographics. That doesn't convince me of the "after this, therefore because of this" argument, that Calleigh and Eric came to fruition after certain portions of the fanbase expressed interest in it and therefore the aforementioned portion of the fanbase was the primary motivating factor in the go-ahead of blatant E/C. I believe the writers have had several ideas and plans from the beginning (as they've said), that some were scrapped and some were kept, and that while H/C fell to the cutting room floor, E/C made it through. I believe major changes to several of the characters was also part of the plan. Horatio has certainly evolved over the seasons and I'm guessing it wasn't by accident. Same with Ryan. Same with Eric. Same with Calleigh.

You believe differently, so again I suppose we have to agree to disagree.

You know, I really don't see the individuals who dislike the E/C 'ship as trying to get shippers to reconsider or change their minds about something the shippers see as a wonderful event.

I might not have minded these two getting together if doing so hadn't meant the total destruction of the characters I'd grown to care and respect, as well as the destruction of the team. The team doesn't even exist any more because apparently it's more important to hook Calleigh and Eric up.

In this respect, I think the romance as the writers have allowed it to influence the team dynamic could have been managed much better. I don't like that the team has splintered so drastically. I will always agree with this point and again, in a criticism of what the writers have done, I think they handled this aspect poorly and need to get back on their game. I don't think the E/C romance necessarily had to've been cut altogether to maintain team unity, but I believe there could've been more of a coexistence between the two elements of the show.

I don't know that anything they can do would turn that around for me now. I completely, totally and intensely dislike this E/C hook up. I don't know that I'll ever respect Calleigh again. It's reached a point where, for me, it's difficult to even watch scenes with her character - with or without Eric. And I'm well on the way to feeling the same way about Eric.

As has been stated multiple times throughout this thread, people who dislike the E/C ship have indicated numerous reasons we feel are valid for feeling the way we do.

Just as the shippers have.

Fine with me. I don't need you to support the ship. I don't feel an obligation to support a lot of other ships, so I can certainly understand your feelings in this regard. My reason for being here is to better understand the objections and to engage in discussion to find out if the objections are in fact valid and unembellished.

I feel like I'm running circles here.

I know. I usually piss people off by requesting a lot of clarification on what they've said and affirmation that I've understood correctly. I just like to make sure that we're on the same page so that we don't get deep into a conversation and realize pages later that we've been opperating under false assumptions and misunderstandings.

I didn't necessarily say that fans have that power. It came off to me that TPTB became desperate....maybe to keep thier ratings, or maybe to keep up with the other CSI shows - I don't really know, but the way they have pushed, teased, & milked it the way they have - yes I do think to some extent they felt they needed a "jump the shark" moment, & e/c fans were vocal, so this is what TPTB resorted to.

That, to me, sounds like the fanbase exerting a measure of power over TPTB regardless of whether or not they (the fans) are aware of their power. Refering back to what I told Delynn, I think the writers may have tweaked their plans, but did not drastically alter their plans, in response to fan input.

But since we don't see this the same way, we'll have to agree to disagree just like Delynn and I.

Touching base [is showing] something fans speak of wanting, but not to extent of fully delivering what it is they all want.

Catering is more or less giving the fans everything they desire & that I don't think any show should do.....do you see the difference now?

Yes I do. Thanks for the clarification.

Also, how does your desire for E/N to (eventually) go canon work with your assertion that romantic storylines in a show like this are redundant and restrictive? By the way, if that's not the jist of your assertion, let me know. I don't want to misrepresent what you've said.

I think you've just misunderstood me. I don't think ALL romantic storylines should be excluded from crime shows. However, when it comes to a romantic storyline that has interfered with other things (the list goes on in here) then I do find it to be crossing that line between crime show & soap opera. I'm sorry if you don't understand that.

No, I get that. I regret that the team dynamic suffered during the last few seasons and think that the writers could've handled it a lot better. I covered this in my response to Delynn.

When it's something that is that focused on, the love story has already been written & has come to a complete head - then that is when I see that it becomes redundant for this type of show to throw out the back & forth obstacles for said couple. Yes, E/N had thier share of a few conflicts, but the relationship in itself didn't fully develop & that's where I see a difference in terms of a couple becoming redundant.

H/Y carried on for years as well, & amounted to nothing but her leaving. Do I think it would be redundant to allow some exploring with those 2 later on? Absolutely NOT - there is still something there that could & needs to be fully explored with that part of Miami's "story".
& I don't even ship them, but I do see it as part of the entire picture & I wouldn't be appauled if they finally had them figuring out where they stand in each others lives....that is if it didn't take the show away, of course.
Do you see what I'm getting at here? I hope so, cause to tell you the truth I have a very bad headache now.

I think I do mostly understand you... and I just have one more question. I'm sorry!

What has been fully addressed in the E/C ship that could/should be further explored in "underdeveloped" ships? This isn't so much a request for clarification as it is for elaboration. If you don't want to, that's fine. You're under no obligation to continue this conversation.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

Personally, I've had very bad experiences with show writers (not necessarily CSI shows, but others), so I can't bring myself to trust anything any of the tv show writers say no matter how much I may want to. :lol:

I don't know if everyone knows this or not, but back several seasons ago, one of tptb at Miami, I believe it was Ann Donahue, but not totally positive... anyway, she said that Horatio would almost die (and this was way before last season's finale). When that particular episode came along, he didn't even come close to dying. It kind of feels like the fans were lied to there. I mean, she could have come out later and said "we were planning to do that story, but changed our minds". To the best of my knowledge, she never did. That's why I have trouble believing anything from them. :lol:

 

[Orla_Dark]

I don't believe anything that tptb says, cuz so many times they lie (in many others show). I think they say what fit to situation. You know what i mean? It's show, they made EC canon and thats why they say "we always mean it", then (it's just example) EC break up and say "it's was very difficult relationships and wasn't that serious". They start new romance and would say "we always mean it" again. I hope you understand what i mean :lol:

I admit that i CaRWash shipper, but i write here not because it's EC, i write here because i don't like how writers did this romance. If it was any other romance that they show us in that way this thread was named "Cake (EDeN, CaRWash, DuCaine) romance - why we dislike it". It happen that it was EC, but i'm sure if it was other ship we have the same problem. So no, i don't like this romance not because i like other ship.

I come back to GSR and i say it again, i don't ship them, i wanna see Gil\Cath ship in show, but i admit that Sara and Gil have something from season 1 to 7 when they finally was together. I use this ship like example, cuz whan tptb say "we alway mean it" i believe them, cuz i see it, even when Gil have something with Lady Heather and Sara with Hank, still i see that they have attractive to each other. But when after 5 years brither\sister relationship they start this romance with words "we always mean it" i don't believe them, cuz i believe my eyes. Sorry, this if you don't understand my point, if write it too bad :lol:

 

[inthewind]

I don't believe anything that tptb says, cuz so many times they lie (in many others show). I think they say what fit to situation. You know what i mean? It's show, they made EC canon and thats why they say "we always mean it", then (it's just example) EC break up and say "it's was very difficult relationships and wasn't that serious". They start new romance and would say "we always mean it" again. I hope you understand what i mean :lol:

I admit that i CaRWash shipper, but i write here not because it's EC, i write here because i don't like how writers did this romance. If it was any other romance that they show us in that way this thread was named "Cake (EDeN, CaRWash, DuCaine) romance - why we dislike it". It happen that it was EC, but i'm sure if it was other ship we have the same problem. So no, i don't like this romance not because i like other ship.

I come back to GSR and i say it again, i don't ship them, i wanna see Gil\Cath ship in show, but i admit that Sara and Gil have something from season 1 to 7 when they finally was together. I use this ship like example, cuz whan tptb say "we alway mean it" i believe them, cuz i see it, even when Gil have something with Lady Heather and Sara with Hank, still i see that they have attractive to each other. But when after 5 years brither\sister relationship they start this romance with words "we always mean it" i don't believe them, cuz i believe my eyes. Sorry, this if you don't understand my point, if write it too bad :lol:

:hugegrin:We understand you just fine. I agree with most of what you say. I don't ship anyone, but I agree Gil and Sara worked pretty well. They were a natural, as are Danny and Lindsay. The same can't be said for E/C.

AD, et al, are really not as bad as tptb on other shows. That's not excusing them but, on a scale, they're pretty low. Whenever any of them are promoting an arc, no matter how ridiculous, they'll force those square pegs into those round holes, splinters and all. Canon by committee, subject to change with no notice or rationale.:angryrazz:

 

[Delynn]

Can't say I agree with the claim that these two characters have "completely changed" or that the ship seems "forced", so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Oh, I have never expected an E/C shipper to agree with my perspective in that regard and I "agreed to disagree" a long time ago about what shippers see as opposed to what non-shippers see regarding this relationship. It's sometimes like we are watching different shows. LOL

Yep. I'll defend what they say but not necessarily what they've done. I didn't like H/M. Thought it came straight out of left field and was nothing more than a major plot device for H and Eric. I don't read or watch much media on CSI Miami so I don't know what the writers had to say about it, or what kind of promos/interviews we got, but if the writers said that they intended for it to be a genuine romance, I'd believe them. That doesn't mean I'd be convinced to feel as though it was a true romance, but I'd take them at their word - that their intentions went one way and I reacted in another way.

I guess I've been through too many show runner/producer jerk fests to believe everything TPTB say. You ain't lived until Chris Carter has jerked you around for a couple of years.

I guess I'm not that trusting. I'm not going to take their word for it. They have to show me and the storyline and actors better be able to sell it. I adore Horatio and I didn't like the H/M storyline either. For me it wasn't much different than the E/C storyline. It was forced, contrived and I saw absolutely no chemistry between the actors/characters. And it was promoted as this amazing love that just went straight to Horatio's soul. Uh, yeah, whatever. Didn't see it or feel it. Same for me with E/C. And I didn't care for what they did to Horatio to force that storyline - we're still paying for that one, although I beginning to see hints of the old Horatio peaking through once in a while.

I agree that they're trying to create a show that a lot of people will watch. I agree that they're trying to include elements that will appeal to a broad fan base and to particular demographics.

Uhm, that's not quite what I said or meant. Of course they are trying to create a show that everyone will watch, but by targeting the 18-49 age group, they are not targeting the largest demographic. The largest demographic is the baby boomers and they are outside the target demographic in that they are over 49.

What advertisers are targeting are the people they feel are more likely to change up with a product. By that I mean, if your mom (say 54 years old) has been cleaning with Comet her whole life, just like her mom did before her, she is less likely to try something new. Advertisers feel that those in the 18-49 age group are more easily swayed to try something new. That's why they target that group and that's why it's important for TV shows like CSIM to win that demographic. The larger the target demographic the more they can charge for advertising during their time period and the network is happy!

Actually, CSIM came in second in the target demographic the night E/C had the "magic kiss" episode. They were down 65% in the target demographic. That tells me that the tweeners were probably watching "The Bachelor" (who came in #1 and buried CSIM in the target demographic) and E/C wasn't on their priority list. So with all the hype - and I do read and watch the entertainment magazines and shows and this "kiss" episode was hyped to the max -the target audience had something better to do.

... that Calleigh and Eric came to fruition after certain portions of the fanbase expressed interest in it...

I agree. Certain portions of the fanbase did express an interest. A very vocal portion that post online. As I've stated before, I believe that this whole thing came about so slowly because TPTB put the "feelers" out and as soon as they had a bite, they began to feed to the media that the E/C hook up was a big deal and more and more fans were becoming interested and then the media started writing about it and more fans jumped on the band wagon. I completely believe that this "relationship" was a marketing/media design. And I know that you totally and completely disagree with me and that's alright. Another point where we'll have to agree to disagree.

Even the fans who dislike the E/C storyline are probably small when you look at the whole picture. Most people who watch the show could are less who is sleeping with who. But from personal experience, more and more are caring. NO ONE I know watches CSIM any more. It used to be everyone. It's one of the reasons I'm now posting online. I don't have anyone around me to discuss the show with. And majority stopped watching because of the E/C bombardment.

Horatio has certainly evolved over the seasons and I'm guessing it wasn't by accident. Same with Ryan. Same with Eric. Same with Calleigh.

Well, I've already addressed the changes to Horatio and how I felt/feel about them earlier. I hated them. And while I wasn't posting then, believe me when I tell you I wasn't shy about voicing my opinion to friends and family who were still watching the show then.

I'm finally seeing some positive changes in Horatio this season.

I see absolutely nothing postive about the changes to Calleigh. Growth is one thing. To destroy the core values of the character to force a relationship does a disservice to the character and shows a lack of respect for your audience.

With Eric's changes I'm much more forgiving due to his injury. But if they don't address his need for help, then I don't know how much longer I'll be able to respect his character.

You believe differently, so again I suppose we have to agree to disagree.

That we will.

In this respect, I think the romance as the writers have allowed it to influence the team dynamic could have been managed much better. I don't like that the team has splintered so drastically. I will always agree with this point and again, in a criticism of what the writers have done, I think they handled this aspect poorly and need to get back on their game.

We agree again! There's hope! :lol:

Fine with me. I don't need you to support the ship. I don't feel an obligation to support a lot of other ships, so I can certainly understand your feelings in this regard. My reason for being here is to better understand the objections and to engage in discussion to find out if the objections are in fact valid and unembellished.

That's why this thread was created. So that people who don't support the E/C ship would have a place to go and discuss their postion without fear of being hassled. I don't think anyone who has expressed a dislike for the E/C hook up has been shy in expressing themselves. I think we've all been pretty clear and concise when giving our reasons for objecting.

While as an E/C shipper you may not find our rationale in disliking the E/C 'ship to be valid, I assure you that our concerns are no less valid to us than your support of the ship is valid to you. No one is asking you to defend your support of the 'ship, but we seemed to be forced repeatedly to defend, explain and re-explain our position.

I know. I usually piss people off by requesting a lot of clarification on what they've said and affirmation that I've understood correctly. I just like to make sure that we're on the same page so that we don't get deep into a conversation and realize pages later that we've been opperating under false assumptions and misunderstandings.

Nah. Life's too short to get upset about the little things. But I have to be honest and say I don't know how much more we can say to explain. I feel like we are being asked to defend and justify our position and I really think that throughout this thread we have done so - some quite elegantly.

So I'm going to leave you with us agreeing to disagree on pretty much everything having to do with the E/C relationship. I don't think there is anymore answers I can provide to you. I hope others are better at it and you are able to gain the understanding that you are looking for.