Why Lindsay REALLY Must Go (Pt. 2)

[WhosLaughingNow]

penguinpie said:

Kimmychu said:
And before people bring up the whole 'Carmine is deliberately sabotaging things and the writers actually want DL to keep going' issue again, we don't know that, we really don't. That is only speculation, and as amusing as it may be, it's one that isn't nice to begin with since it implies that he's being unprofessional about his work. Hey, he's proved it consistently on the show that he's a pro and cares about his work, so there's that.

I agree; I don't think Carmine would be so unprofessional. Even if he were attempting to shoot down the whole D/L ship, and we've absolutely no proof of that, the director would pull him up if he deviated too much from the script or if they thought he wasn't giving them the performance they wanted. He certainly wouldn't get away with it episode after episode.

Yeah he's not stupid enough to do that. Any actor that finds the need to do that is just sad.

penguinpie said:
Has anyone ever seen any real evidence that D/L boosted NY's ratings?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the ratings go up from season 1 ---> 2? Anyways, if it did I highly doubt it had anything with Lindsay or D/L because most good shows go up in ratings the second season round. And as for the ratings drop whatever the reason was I'm sure all the D/L stuff didn't help.

 

[Dawni]

Kimmychu said:
And before people bring up the whole 'Carmine is deliberately sabotaging things and the writers actually want DL to keep going' issue again, we don't know that, we really don't. That is only speculation, and as amusing as it may be, it's one that isn't nice to begin with since it implies that he's being unprofessional about his work. Hey, he's proved it consistently on the show that he's a pro and cares about his work, so there's that.

I know this is slightly off topic but not... but I swear I read he was never unhappy with the whole thing therefore no real reason to screw it up... i certainly don't think he would be unproffesional, he's got to much sense to do something stupid like that. Agree with you there.

I have to say this season it hasnt been pushed in our faces which is quite nice as much as i actually wanted to see what they did with it we actually havent seen anything really indicating something serious.

TPTB aim to surprise us and screw with us... Its there jobs

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Dawni said:

Kimmychu said:
And before people bring up the whole 'Carmine is deliberately sabotaging things and the writers actually want DL to keep going' issue again, we don't know that, we really don't. That is only speculation, and as amusing as it may be, it's one that isn't nice to begin with since it implies that he's being unprofessional about his work. Hey, he's proved it consistently on the show that he's a pro and cares about his work, so there's that.

I know this is slightly off topic but not... but I swear I read he was never unhappy with the whole thing therefore no real reason to screw it up... i certainly don't think he would be unproffesional, he's got to much sense to do something stupid like that. Agree with you there.

I have to say this season it hasnt been pushed in our faces which is quite nice as much as i actually wanted to see what they did with it we actually havent seen anything really indicating something serious.

TPTB aim to surprise us and screw with us... Its there jobs

In his last interview with Kristine he seemed to be OK with the D/L story line and with Danny being used as a prop for Lindsay. Plus, as someone else pointed out, even if he wasn't happy and was unprofessional enough to try, he couldn't get away with sabatoging anything. TPTB would have his ass for that kind of behavior. It just shows how ridiculous some people can get when trying to rationalize why things aren't happening the way they want them to happen.

 

[Top41]

PerfectAnomaly said:
In his last interview with Kristine he seemed to be OK with the D/L story line and with Danny being used as a prop for Lindsay. Plus, as someone else pointed out, even if he wasn't happy and was unprofessional enough to try, he couldn't get away with sabatoging anything. TPTB would have his ass for that kind of behavior. It just shows how ridiculous some people can get when trying to rationalize why things aren't happening the way they want them to happen.

Exactly. He didn't say he was unhappy with it; he did acknowledged Danny was used as a "prop" for Lindsay, but he called himself the "utility guy" and said they can use him for whatever they need to use him for. He mentioned storylines the writers had discussed with him about Danny possibly looking elsewhere and not finding Lindsay to be all Danny thought she was, but those were storylines discussed with him. Besides, if Carmine was unhappy with the storyline, I'm sure he'd do the professional thing and go to the writers, not try to sabotage anything on screen.

I think the lack of D/L and Lindsay shows that the writers are more interested in pursuing other storylines. Letting the romance and the character stay in the background really is the best way to go IMO. It's interesting that the so-called big romance has been so downplayed by TPTB, but hey, I'm not complaining.

 

[Dawni]

Top41 said:
I think the lack of D/L and Lindsay shows that the writers are more interested in pursuing other storylines. Letting the romance and the character stay in the background really is the best way to go IMO. It's interesting that the so-called big romance has been so downplayed by TPTB, but hey, I'm not complaining.

Yeah I agree, I'm happy they've done that not that I hated the pairing quite like it I just like they didnt throw it at us at once make it unbareable

 

[Faylinn]

I think Season 2's ratings were higher than season 1--from the beginning. That includes the episodes that still had Aiden, before Lindsay even set foot in the city. I don't have it with me, but I found something that said "Grand Murder at Central Station" got 14+ million viewers, I believe, so it did better than the average episode this season. Giving Lindsay or DL all of the credit for the ratings going up is unfair. Did the show get 'brighter'? Yes and no, but it was advertised as such. There were various changes made between the first and second seasons (Hawkes moving to the field, the new lab, etc etc--and they kept advertising the 'new look' and the new cases and whatnot before season 2 premiered), not to mention that, like WhosLaughingNow said, ratings often go up in the second season anyway.

I wish I had the actual numbers for all of the episodes to compare. I'm pretty sure season one had some episodes that pulled in more viewers than the show gets on a regular basis now. And yes, viewing habits are changing, and that has something to do with it, but still--you can't really say the ratings go up because of Danny and Lindsay and then turn around and say the ratings go down because the Nielsen system is wrong. The latter is pretty accurate, but the former is an assumption.

I've seen a lot of people want to give Lindsay the credit for an increase in ratings, but they want to explain away decreases by blaming the ratings system, competition, lack of advertisements, etc etc etc. Basically, Lindsay is given credit when people want that to be the case (usually to show some sort of superiority over season one or somesuch).

Conversely, I don't think Lindsay or D/L is solely to blame for the fact that ratings have gone down some--I think it's one of several things about the show that haven't done it any favors. The concentration on romance as a symptom rather than the problem, maybe...

Anyway, I'm rambling.

I'd like to think that the fact that "Snow Day" didn't lead to even more gratuitous romance is a good sign. Not only would it be too much for a crime drama (not to mention the fact that I wasn't buying what they were selling with Danny and Lindsay), but I think it's significant that we can't have a discussion about Lindsay for more than a few posts without it inevitably turning back into a discussion of Lindsay and Danny.

 

[Lorelai]

Yes, S2 it's the one that did the best:

Season 1

Rank #21

Viewers (in millions) 13.6

18-49 Rating/Share (rank) 4.9/13 (#23)



Season 2

Rank #22

Viewers (in millions) 14.2

18-49 Rating/Share (rank) 4.7/12 (#23)


Season 3

Rank #23

Viewers (in millions) 13.9

18-49 Rating/Share (rank) 4.3/11 (#25)

 

[Faylinn]

Did you get those from Wikipedia? (I ask because I saw the season totals over there when I was looking for totals for individual episodes.)

Interestingly, if my understanding of the rating/share thing is right, season 1 technically did better than 2 or 3 in that 'vital' 18-49 demo. So if the D/L thing was meant to pull in more people 18-49, it didn't do enough to make a major difference...

Ratings are so damn confusing. Still though, if you really think about it, the numbers aren't all that different from season to season. Sometimes, the numbers fluctuate from episode to episode more than that, you know? (Compare the overall viewers in "Can You Hear Me Now?" to "One Wedding and a Funeral", for example--12.72 million and 14.49 million respectively.)

Anyway, while season 2 being 'brighter' and the introduction of Lindsay might have brought in new fans, the changes also got rid of some older fans--it's all individual. Any time someone tries to act like Lindsay Monroe saved the show from cancellation, I have to roll my eyes.

Top41 said:
I notice she's getting the really, really random research stuff or the Captain Obvious lines a lot lately.

Yeah, seriously.

 

[Lorelai]

Faylinn said:
Did you get those from Wikipedia? (I ask because I saw the season totals over there when I was looking for totals for individual episodes.)

Yes. And I can't believe I couldn't find any ratings for individual episodes.

Still though, if you really think about it, the numbers aren't all that different from season to season. Sometimes, the numbers fluctuate from episode to episode more than that, you know? (Compare the overall viewers in "Can You Hear Me Now?" to "One Wedding and a Funeral", for example--12.72 million and 14.49 million respectively.)

Yes, episodes like RSRD or HOTD that get 16 - 17 million viewers lift the whole season.

Top41 said:
I notice she's getting the really, really random research stuff or the Captain Obvious lines a lot lately.

Oh, yeah! And this only proves what we've been saying. She's dispensable. CSI NY doesn't need her. We don't need her in the show. And TPTB started this "she's not necessary" trend with SD. We need everyone else to keep the show going. What did she do? She undressed Danny? Sorry, but we don't need her, not even for that. That's what malfunctioning coffee machines are for! :lol:
Anyway, I'm glad that they are keeping her and D/L low!

 

[Faylinn]

Yes. And I can't believe I couldn't find any ratings for individual episodes.

CSI Files usually does ratings reports, but older ones only did the rating/share for households, and I don't think they were done every week. I know this season there's been one every week with the totals.

And TPTB started this "she's not necessary" trend with SD.

Very true. I'm not sure Lindsay Monroe is the best love interest character ever, but even if she was, I don't think a love interest character is really more deserving of a spot in the main cast than someone like Sid, who is the coroner and f*cking rocks at it.

Other than all that, she's just a glorified lab tech (don't take that the wrong way--LAB TECH LOVE FOREVER! )--and let's be honest, Hawkes is a better glorified lab tech than she is.

 

[WhosLaughingNow]

Faylinn said:
I don't think a love interest character is really more deserving of a spot in the main cast than someone like Sid, who is the coroner and f*cking rocks at it.

I think another reason why a character like Sid sticks out and is so amazing is because Sid is an actual character. Sid is just Sid and no one else, a very distinct character, with his own distinct personality. Where as Lindsay is just another girl that happened to show up in the lab one day.

 

[Kimmychu]

... Lorelai's banner keeps making me snicker. :lol:

WhosLaughingNow said:

Sid is just Sid and no one else, a very distinct character, with his own distinct personality. Where as Lindsay is just another girl that happened to show up in the lab one day.

When a minor character who barely has half the screen time a main character has still PWNs the main character by leagues ... somebody's gotta go. :lol:

As for Hawkes being a glorified lab tech: In season one, TPTB gave him the role of being the cute but morbid ME dude. Then they moved him out of the labs and turned him into a CSI hoping to give him more screen time and all that. And the freaking irony of this?

Hawkes ended up having next to no screen time at all ... after Lindsay showed up. Us knowing what we know now, the possibility is that TPTB initially had a lot of plans for Hawkes, but when Lindsay showed up and they had to integrate her and put her at the forefront to center viewers' attention on her, well, bye bye Hawkes, you're going into the background.

So in light of all that, you can feel the irony of Lindsay still being considered nothing more than a useless character and a glorified lab tech, can't you?

 

[Top41]

The idea that Lindsay had any effect on the ratings is kind of laughable. No, the show didn't tank when she came on, but nor did she boost the ratings. She's had no effect whatsoever. It's interesting because if you look at the seasons, there really isn't a lot of difference numerically between them. Their averages are pretty much within a similar range in millions of viewers, 18-49 and ranking. The show has pretty much been steady in the ratings since it came on the air, average wise.

The concern with first season was a dip from like 18 million viewers at the outset to 11-12 in the latter half of the season. And if you look at individual episodes, there are highs and lows, of course. As best I can tell, the eps that draw in the most viewers involve one of two things: stunt casting or Danny (solo Danny, sans Lindsay) drama.

That was a tad OT, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Lindsay has little effect on the ratings, and if the character got written out tomorrow, I imagine there would be no impact on the ratings. For most viewers (i.e., not shippers or people who come to discussion forums) she's just kind of "there." She's not a name with a fanbase, like Gary Sinise or Melina Kanakaredes, and she's not a stand-out character like Danny.

 

[Carmeena]

Something completely off topic:

I just thought of someone I hate more than Lindsay & Meredith Grey combined... LANA LANG!!! God please kill her, I hope she gets hit by a truck & dies, I hate her I hate her I hate her!!!

I know Lindsay does the scrunch face, but how can that be possibly anywhere as bad as Lana & her flaring nostrils???

(Sorry, random thought that just flew into my head out of nowhere & I felt the need to share...)

 

[Faylinn]

I don't watch "Grey's Anatomy" or "Smallville", so I can't comment on either Meredith or Lana--I'll just stick with Lindsay.

Top41:
That was a tad OT

Actually, I don't really think it's off-topic. One of the major selling points for Lindsay has always been that she somehow improved the show, and as far as ratings go, there's little to support that claim. The show was changed at the beginning of season 2, sure, but she was an example of that rather than the cause--and all things considered, she didn't 'save' the show.

The concern with first season was a dip from like 18 million viewers at the outset to 11-12 in the latter half of the season.

Yeah, the first few episodes got 18 or 19 million viewers each, so I can see how the massive drop would make some people nervous--but 12 million isn't shabby by any means. Hell, the premiere this year only got 12.72 million viewers, and I haven't seen anybody suggest it was close to being canceled.

Hawkes ended up having next to no screen time at all ... after Lindsay showed up.

The thing that bothers me about that is that they admitted that Hawkes got shafted in season 2--it was his rookie year as well, but he got pushed to the side to accommodate Lindsay--but they didn't do anything to make up for it in season 3 or so far this year. Granted, Lindsay hasn't had much this year either, and Hawkes had a few episodes where he was a bit more front-and-center at times ("The Deep" and "Time's Up" immediately spring to mind), but I don't like that an existing character was shelved to help the new girl--because nobody really benefited in the end. It certainly didn't do any favors for Hawkes, but looking back, it didn't really do Lindsay any favors in the end either.