Why Lindsay Must Go

[dutch_treat]

^ It's too bad we never know for sure what the majority is, but I'm under the impression that the scale will tip in favor of Lindsay and D/L.

This board and especially this thread are the only places where the dislike of Lindsay is so distinct. I'm not saying that there is no one being critical of the character in other places, but it's more about the storyline she's been given than about the character itself. And those who are against D/L are more often people who are just against romance on a crime show in general.

 

[JDonne]

dutch_treat said:
^ It's too bad we never know for sure what the majority is, but I'm under the impression that the scale will tip in favor of Lindsay and D/L.

This board and especially this thread are the only places where the dislike of Lindsay is so distinct. I'm not saying that there is no one being critical of the character in other places, but it's more about the storyline she's been given than about the character itself. And those who are against D/L are more often people who are just against romance on a crime show in general.

I think there are some sweeping generalizations here and some leaps being made that lack any basis in fact. In fact, it is appears to be nothing more than wishful thinking, the same kind of thought that is behind Lindsay as serial killer. It is as easy to believe that suddenly the Danny/Lindsay “situation” will garner great fan following, but it has as much proof or legitimacy as people saying that it will fall on its face and be written out of the show post haste. Alas, simply believing something or saying something does not make it so and even impressions should have something tangible to back up the feeling.

It is a common statement that outside the board there does not exist this divisive atmosphere or my personal favourite that all of my friends love Danny/Lindsay they just don’t post on the board. I could say I don’t know anyone on or off the board that thinks the chemistry exists, the acting is excellent, or the writing is believable. I say so what to both sides and am not sure how or why it matters in the grand scheme of things. The fact is the writers read this board, they don’t take random samples of the population on how Danny/Lindsay are faring. What they can take away is that the most ardent fans, the ones that bother to post, are decidedly split on the issue. It says something whether people want to accept that or not.

The idea that most of those against the Danny/Lindsay romance are against romance in general undercuts all the reasons and details people have laid out including criticisms on the portrayal and writing. It simply dismisses everything everyone has said, and takes the dislike into the realm of the broad which in turn gives the false notion that the complaints lack specific merit rather the actuality of it all, which is everyone is specific and detailed on what they fins particularly ridiculous, heinous, offensive, and unappealing about any Danny/Lindsay relationship.

People specifically don’t like Danny/Lindsay, though I imagine it is easy enough to miss person after person posting on how adult and well done they find the Mac/Peyton relationship. How they enjoy the subtly and believability of it and then they compare it to the childish and distasteful constant scenes between Danny and Lindsay. I suppose it is like the debate on chemistry, people see what they want to see and as I’ve seen increasingly on the board, people read what they want to read and walk away with bits and pieces.

I think is great if people love Lindsay and love Danny/Lindsay but to make generalizations about what people say is truly frustrating, especially given how well thought out the posts are and the time taken to support what is said rather than simply say it because they wish it could and would be.

Don’t forget the criticism the character and relationship suffer in the grading thread and the How do You Feel About Lindsay Thread. Other than this thread and the grading thread, where would you seek criticism of the character? The shipper thread? The threads dedicated to her fans? The Picture Thread? I’m confused.

A firestorm would erupt if I said I’m under the impression that the Danny/Lindsay relationship will lose fans quickly and people that like them tend to favour sophomoric relationships in general.

 

[dutch_treat]

It’s absolutely true that a part of my impressions are based upon wishful thinking; if you like something you tend to look at it through rose-coloured spectacles, I’m not denying that, but that doesn’t mean that it’s nothing more than that. I’ve been reading a lot here and on other boards after episode #19 had aired and that made me realise that there are more Lindsay and/or D/L fans than this board alone made me think. Of course I cannot back that up, because there are no actual numbers available, but that episode and the commotion it caused was a great chance to read many, often very divers, opinions.

the most ardent fans, the ones that bother to post, are decidedly split on the issue. It says something whether people want to accept that or not.

I just cannot accept it because I think it’s not correct and nothing I’ve read so far has me convinced that it is.

It is not my intention to generalize or dismiss other people’s thoughts or intently miss posts. I very much enjoy reading what others have to say about certain issues even if I totally disagree with what they’re saying. I was merely trying to point out that not everyone who’s against the D/L romance dislikes it because it’s D/L, but because they think romance doesn’t belong in this show at all.

I personally like the Mac/Peyton relationship. And I agree that it’s different from D/L, but not more adult or more tasteful it just is more on the background because Peyton is not a main character.

I think is great if people love Lindsay and love Danny/Lindsay but to make generalizations about what people say is truly frustrating, especially given how well thought out the posts are and the time taken to support what is said rather than simply say it because they wish it could and would be.

I have no doubt that everyone takes the time they find necessary to think out posts and come up with ways to support them, but we have to keep in mind that not everyone has the same capability to write long and insightful posts and that the shorter posts (like mine –this being an exception-) are possibly that way because it’s just hard sometimes to get across what you want to say.

Don’t forget the criticism the character and relationship suffer in the grading thread and the How do You Feel About Lindsay Thread. Other than this thread and the grading thread, where would you seek criticism of the character? The shipper thread? The threads dedicated to her fans? The Picture Thread? I’m confused.

Of course (like I already said) I know of the criticism in other threads, but on those threads are positive posts too. And even in the Anna/Lindsay and the shipper thread not everyone feels the same about the character/relationship.

A firestorm would erupt if I said I’m under the impression that the Danny/Lindsay relationship will lose fans quickly and people that like them tend to favour sophomoric relationships in general.

As long as it’s clear that it’s just your impression and not a fact I think there’s not going to be a storm at all.

 

[d2400]

I watched a rerun of CSI NY yesterday. It was an episode before this whole D/L thing started. For me, it is not just the D/L thing. It is the character in general. No matter what, they just can't make her fit. It is not going to work. To me, the character Lindsay is like the New Coke. Anyone remember what happened when they introduced the New Coke??? BAD IDEA!!!! (I think that is going to be my new slogan - Lindsay Monroe: The New Coke of CSI NY!) But I digress....If they ever choose to write her out, they have the perfect storyline, no drama or anything, she can just walk away because she can't handle her job because of her past etc. It could be soooo easy!!!!!!!

 

[JDonne]

dutch_treat said:
It’s absolutely true that a part of my impressions are based upon wishful thinking; if you like something you tend to look at it through rose-coloured spectacles, I’m not denying that, but that doesn’t mean that it’s nothing more than that. I’ve been reading a lot here and on other boards after episode #19 had aired and that made me realise that there are more Lindsay and/or D/L fans than this board alone made me think. Of course I cannot back that up, because there are no actual numbers available, but that episode and the commotion it caused was a great chance to read many, often very divers, opinions.

I’d disagree with the idea that just because you like something you look at it through rose coloured glasses, for instance I happen to like CSI: NY that doesn’t mean I don’t see its faults, failings, and shortcomings. I don’t divide the world that way, I hope most people don’t, between blind acceptance and utter dislike, there is a middle ground and liking something doesn’t make you unilaterally blind to the weak areas or the problem spots. In marriage, you love someone with all of yourself but it doesn’t mean that the way they leave their cereal bowl in the sink doesn’t piss you off.

I’d have to disagree about the fuss that episode 19 caused because it certainly didn’t translate in the ratings, the Danny/Lindsay scenes weren’t worthy of a place in the promos, failed to garner a mention in the leading entertainment magazines for the week, etc, so the hype you are referring to must be entirely online. One of those boards I would imagine doesn’t have a whole lot of negative to say about Danny/Lindsay’s almost kiss.

the most ardent fans, the ones that bother to post, are decidedly split on the issue. It says something whether people want to accept that or not

I just cannot accept it because I think it’s not correct and nothing I’ve read so far has me convinced that it is.

To disagree is one thing to dismiss entirely is another, because the reality of this board is that there is a great divide, if you choose to ignore or not acknowledge well then so be it, but for me it doesn’t alter the reality of the situation.

It is not my intention to generalize or dismiss other people’s thoughts or intently miss posts. I very much enjoy reading what others have to say about certain issues even if I totally disagree with what they’re saying. I was merely trying to point out that not everyone who’s against the D/L romance dislikes it because it’s D/L, but because they think romance doesn’t belong in this show at all.

Actually what you said was “those who are against D/L are more often people who are just against romance on crime shows.” So, it may not have been what you meant but the inclusion of “more often” implies most and I don’t think you have the facts to back up that statement. However, if what you meant was some then that I can accept, otherwise I reject such a definitive statement when there are countless posts here that prove otherwise.

I have no doubt that everyone takes the time they find necessary to think out posts and come up with ways to support them, but we have to keep in mind that not everyone has the same capability to write long and insightful posts and that the shorter posts (like mine –this being an exception-) are possibly that way because it’s just hard sometimes to get across what you want to say.

Well, this one and the last one did take me about five minutes apiece, so I agree not everyone has the time. Details to support you viewpoint need not be paragraphs and paragraphs it can be a single sentence, but support is a necessity without it there is no well-formed opinion just a blind one.

Of course (like I already said) I know of the criticism in other threads, but on those threads are positive posts too. And even in the Anna/Lindsay and the shipper thread not everyone feels the same about the character/relationship.

There are people in the D/L shipper thread that finds the relationship as heinous as some of the posters in this thread, the grading thread, and the How do You Feel About Lindsay thread? No. They may disagree about the progression or the writers inclusion about certain scenes, what they do not disagree about is a deep desire to see what they enjoy become canon. The point of my statement is there are not many places dedicated to liking or disliking most of the characters, it would be excessive, why should Lindsay be any different, so no there are not 15 threads on why people dislike Lindsay, because at the moment this one serves everyones needs.

As long as it’s clear that it’s just your impression and not a fact I think there’s not going to be a storm at all.

Those are in fact rose coloured glasses as clearly stated opinions have indeed resulted in many a firestorm.

 

[Silencer]

I just cannot accept it because I think it’s not correct and nothing I’ve read so far has me convinced that it is.

It is not my intention to generalize or dismiss other people’s thoughts or intently miss posts. I very much enjoy reading what others have to say about certain issues even if I totally disagree with what they’re saying. I was merely trying to point out that not everyone who’s against the D/L romance dislikes it because it’s D/L, but because they think romance doesn’t belong in this show at all.

I personally like the Mac/Peyton relationship. And I agree that it’s different from D/L, but not more adult or more tasteful it just is more on the background because Peyton is not a main character.

I have the opposite problem. I see the posts from pro-Lindsay FMs and read all of the reasons why I should like her and I find it hugely difficult to relate to what they're saying. They see chemistry where I see awkward posturing, they see true!love where I see a badly-written teenage smush-fest. And for the record - I'm still open to persuading. I don't particularly want to hate an aspect of one of my favourite shows. I've yet to see a well-written example of why I should give Lindsay another chance. There's been a couple of well-done pro-Lindsay entries, and they're in this thread, of all places. Otherwise, it tends to devolve into "bashing" protests and discussions about how pretty Anna is.

Oh, and I love the Mac/Peyton relationship. It's been beautifully handled. And I disgree that it's more in the background because Peyton isn't a main character - Mac is the main focus of CSI:NY, and we've seen quite a lot of it. The difference between M/P and D/L is that Mac and Peyton conduct their romance away from work. No wangst instead of cases, no flirting over corpses. They also go about it in a much more refined way - we've seen one example of an argument, and Mac relented/talked and they compromised. Wonderful. Mac looks softer, but otherwise intact. With D/L, we've seen episode after episode of push/pull theatrics, with their "not talking to each other", "liking each other but ZOMG, we can't make this work because of my horrible sekrit" and the absolute massacre of Danny Messer. Awesome.

 

[Carrieattheprom]

What on earth is going on with these boards? I've twice written long responses but when I went to post them I got a message back saying "Cannot Proceed: The form you have entered is no longer valid. Please use your back button to return to the previous page." What a headache.

One last time:

Lindsay is the main problem for me. It is not just the romance either. Lindsay is badly written, the writers were clearly making stuff up as they went along. Remember Manhattan Manhunt? Anna can't act. I never believe I'm watching Lindsay. I don't have that problem with anybody else on the cast, just her. The D/L thing plays out like a kid's fanfic. Danny and Lindsay have zero chemistry. It confuses me because Mac and Peyton's romance is mature and well written and they do have chemistry.

Hey, d2400: is it okay if I use your "Lindsay Monroe:The New Coke of CSI NY" in my signiture? I'll make sure you get credit for it. It's very clever and I completely agree.

 

[MichelleK]

I was always baffled at Lindsays reaction in Manhattan Manhunt! Surely if she had gone through this huge thing in her past the storyline in that particular episode would have been the one to trigger it. The sister escaped like she did and if she had been affected it could have played out kinda well. Unless Mac sent her to the lab before all of her emotions kicked off because he knew way back then about her past. The way she huffed and puffed like a child was out of order though.

I did laugh at someone who posted that they don't ship characters, the only ship they support is the one that ships Lindsay out of New York. Sorry if that offends anyone!!

 

[Silencer]

MichelleK said:
I was always baffled at Lindsays reaction in Manhattan Manhunt! Surely if she had gone through this huge thing in her past the storyline in that particular episode would have been the one to trigger it. The sister escaped like she did and if she had been affected it could have played out kinda well. Unless Mac sent her to the lab before all of her emotions kicked off because he knew way back then about her past. The way she huffed and puffed like a child was out of order though.

...which is total proof that the writers came up with the "secret" storyline on the spur of the moment, and it was NOT defined well in advance. Had they actually bothered to check back, they would have realised that her reactions in Manhattan Manhunt were totally at odds with what they'd have us believe she'd been through.

 

[d2400]

Carrieattheprom: of course you can use Lindsay Monroe: The New Coke of CSI NY!!! it's a free for all!!!!! Have fun with it!

 

[Top41]

JDonne said:
I’d have to disagree about the fuss that episode 19 caused because it certainly didn’t translate in the ratings, the Danny/Lindsay scenes weren’t worthy of a place in the promos, failed to garner a mention in the leading entertainment magazines for the week, etc, so the hype you are referring to must be entirely online. One of those boards I would imagine doesn’t have a whole lot of negative to say about Danny/Lindsay’s almost kiss.

Indeed. That board wouldn't. :lol: Otherwise, I've looked around the net and we're the biggest game in town when it comes to the CSI shows--certainly for the spin-offs. I took a look at TWoP and they seem fairly split on the relationship. The few people posting at YTDAW seem to like it, and also seem to be from DL Chem, a board that might have a bit of a bias.

The media has largely ignored it, save for in articles about Carmine where he finds more and more artful ways to dodge the questions about it (he wishes it was Jane Parsons, deflecting to say how he loves the interactions he has with Mac and Flack, etc.). TV Guide does a little "what we're talking about this week" feature--both Keppler's death and Delko's recovery made it, but not the moment between Danny and Lindsay. And of course, the lack of promotion for it.

The posters at this board represent the most devoted fanbase, and I think it's fairly clear that the devoted fanbase is split on both Lindsay and the romantic pairing of Danny/Lindsay. This thread is still going strong a year later, with new people coming in to say they don't like Lindsay fairly frequently. That is true of the other side, too, but more frequently for Danny/Lindsay than for Lindsay herself, which suggests to me that a lot of people really want to see Danny get it on with someone, that they like seeing the romantic side of Danny. To me, that seems to be less about Lindsay than Danny.

I love the idea of Lindsay as the New Coke. Sometimes what's old doesn't need to be changed or altered--it is great to begin with. She was an unneccesary change, and worse than that, one that has detracted from the show.

 

[dutch_treat]

^ Of course DL Chem has a bit of a bias, but people that are posting there are as a much a part of the fanbase as the people here. Unfortunetaly, for some reason, a lot of Lindsay and D/L fans feel uncomfortable posting here.

I don't think she was an unneccesary change. I liked season 1, but I really loved season 2 and I love season 3 and one of the main reasons for that was the addition of Lindsay.

 

[Carrieattheprom]

And you're entitled to that opinion dutch treat, but I must respectfully disagree.

Sid, Adam, & Peyton to name three examples have not had nearly the same amount of screen time as Lindsay and yet they're still better defined characters than she is. This might be because unlike Lindsay these characters were not rush jobs so the writers had a clearer idea of what they wanted from the characters and the actors had an easier time bringing them to life.(I hope that made sense.)

Lindsay is not a fully developed character. In fact, I'd go so far as to call her a caricature. She went from tough and spunky new kid to a show off-y boss's pet, to creepy stalker, to traumatised victim, and now, aparently, Danny's girlfriend. After all that, we still don't know a lot about her.

If the massacare she survived bothered her that much, why did she get a job as a CSI where she'd be seeing that sort of thing everyday? Same question appiles to talking to mothers. In this job you're going to be delivering a lot of bad news and sometimes you'll be delivering it to mothers. How did she deal with that back in Montanna? Was there another co-worker there nice enough to do it for her? And why doesn't she have the same trouble with fathers? Those questions never got answered because the story ended up being the B plot in the episode it was in and thus got a lot less attention than it derserved for the above questions raised.

Lindsay was a rush job because the writers wanted to fill the vacancy that Aiden had left behind. The writers didn't have enough time to flesh her out or give Anna any idea who her character was supposed to be. When Anna had to go on maternity leave, Lindsay's backstory became a total rush job so they could explain her absence. The writers aparently do not watch previous episodes because if they did the serious gaps in logic would not have ocurred.


Thank you d2400 for my new signiture.

 

[privatename]

Lindsay was a rush job because the writers wanted to fill the vacancy that Aiden had left behind. The writers didn't have enough time to flesh her out or give Anna any idea who her character was supposed to be.

I agree that is what happened, but what bothers me about this is that, in my opinion, they didn't really needed to fill a vacancy after Aiden left. They had other cast members that are quite good that could have been given more screen time. Hawkes moving from the morgue to a spot as a CSI in the field gave them the cast member that could have taken Aiden's place. Or a lab tech could have been given more time. There are a lot of things the show could have done without adding another cast member to a show that, in my opinion, already had plenty of cast members.

 

[MichelleK]

I agree Aiden's place didn't need to be filled and not as quick as it did. Aiden just went and no one even questioned it! That's not for this thread though!
I think the main problem I have with liking Lindsay is that writers still don't know who she is. She gone from new girl in the lab, showing up Danny and kicking some guys ass to whinging and complaining when things don't go her way. I hate that she sucks up to Mac and Stella. If they had introduced her gradually and given us more time to get used to her and given her more of a background then maybe I'd be more understanding. I mean do we even know why she transferred to New York in the first place. Also why did she become a CSI if she is trying to hide what happened in her past. Surely if Lindsay worked a big case the killer would know where she was.