Was Danny Responsible? *Child's Play Spoilers*

[PerfectAnomaly]

roximonoxide said:

PerfectAnomaly said:
I was simply pointing out that the poll wasn't just a yes/no, all or nothing question as you stated, but that there was opportunity and encouragement to discuss shades of grey.

But in response to what you said, I'll offer this. Ruben wasn't killed instantly. If Danny had stayed with Ruben, he would've seen the boy was shot, called for help and the outcome may have been different. Even if Ruben couldn't have been saved, there would have been an attempt and he wouldn't have had to die alone in an alley.

I'm aware that the poll asked for discussion and in that discussion I'm suggesting that Danny's choice, right or wrong, didn't kill him, and that to go from judging the rectitude of Danny's choice to suggesting it AIDED in Ruben's death is a really big, and rather unfounded leap to me.

Our exchange began from this:

roximonoxide said:

PerfectAnomaly said:
I keep getting the feeling that people think someone saying Danny acting irresponsible and making a bad judgement call is the only reason Ruben is dead and 100% of the "blame" is Danny's. That's not it at all.

I'm pretty sure the poll question reads "Do you hold Danny responsible for Ruben's death?"

If that's not blame, then I've been terribly mislead since the day I learned the word.

If the question was, "do you think sending Ruben home alone was the best decision?" then I might be backing this differently, but it's not.

I interpreted your response as telling me what the question was and telling me what the meaning of the word "blame" was as if my saying I didn't think Danny was 100% responsible meant I didn't understand either of those things. I'm not trying to be bitchy, I'm just explaining where I was coming from. If I misinterpreted, I'm sorry.

You're right, Ruben wasn't killed instantly, we got to see him on his feet, or rather his bike, for about 25 seconds before he collapsed. I'd love to have seen Danny diagnose and fix him in that time span.

Actually, we saw a flashback of Ruben riding into the alley, feeling the effects of being shot and then getting off his bike. We never saw him collapse. By the time Ruben was wheeled into the morgue, Danny and Hawkes had time to collect evidence from the scene and vic, get back to the lab, process what evidence they collected and discuss it with Sid. Sid never determined the time of death for Ruben, so it is very possible he was lying in the alley for who knows how long before he passed away. If Danny had stayed with him it is very possible there would have been enough time to call for help and maybe save Ruben.

 

[kinkapoodles]

If Danny would have stayed with Ruben, would somebody please tell me how Danny would have known Ruben bled out? Not only is there a tiny amount of blood on his shirt, he had a jacket on too.

See for yourself:

There's not enough blood to notice under a jacket.

I don't think that Danny telling Ruben to go home was irresponsible of him. There was a gunshot and there could have been more. Danny wanted Ruben out of there. How is that irresponsible? It makes it sound like Danny led Ruben into danger on purpose.

I watched the episode again and Danny DOES tell Ruben to wait for him at the corner and Ruben rides off anyway. Kids ignore their parents/guardians ALL the time. If he would have stopped, he wouldn't have gotten shot. Maybe it was Ruben's fault (which is just as crazy).

Again, the blame lies with the girl who chose to shoot a gun.

Also, if Danny and Ruben were gone for all those hours, why didn't Rikki call Danny to see where they were? Surely she had his cell phone number considering her kid was with him. The only fault I see is Danny not calling to make sure Ruben got home and Rikki not calling to see where they were.

ETA:

And had Ruben's mother been with him, there's no way in hell she would have sent her son home on his own. Regardless, I think when you take charge of someone else's child you have an extra responsibility to make sure that child is safe. Danny was careless with that responsibility.

There's no way in hell I wouldn't have sent him home. If that had been one of my kids, you can bet your ass I would have told them to go home. Of course, I'm not a CSI so therefore I wouldn't have stayed at the scene but who's to say the kid wouldn't have died anyway. Also, when I am watching someone else's child, I take just as good care of them, if not better, than my own but I suppose since I think Danny did the right thing, I must be a crappy parent too.

 

[roximonoxide]

S'cool. No hostility here, just a debate.

Actually, we saw a flashback of Ruben riding into the alley, feeling the effects of being shot and then getting off his bike. We never saw him collapse. By the time Ruben was wheeled into the morgue, Danny and Hawkes had time to collect evidence from the scene and vic, get back to the lab, process what evidence they collected and discuss it with Sid. Sid never determined the time of death for Ruben, so it is very possible he was lying in the alley for who knows how long before he passed away. If Danny had stayed with him it is very possible there would have been enough time to call for help and maybe save Ruben.

Well.. i guess you could say he 'got off his bike' but I've been watching it over and over here and it really looks like he slows down and his bike tips and he goes down with it, which i thought was the explanation for the bump on his head when hes in the morgue. Anyhow, from the time Danny calls out to him to run, Ruben starts fleeing and he almost immediately turns, and then the camera changes and he's in that alley, it appears really close to the scene at the Bodega. Then he's only in that alley for seconds, until he tips and the scene fades out on his liscense plate.

Being that he was a small 10 yr old, he's only gonna have to lose about 1.5 - 2 pints of blood, before he'd be out cold (a lot less than the average adult with 10 - 11 pints in their body). And when he was brought into the morgue, that one little palm sized stain on his shirt didn't suggest like that most of that bleeding was external.

 

[kinkapoodles]

Well.. i guess you could say he 'got off his bike' but I've been watching it over and over here and it really looks like he slows down and his bike tips and he goes down with it, which i thought was the explanation for the bump on his head when hes in the morgue.

He doesn't get off his bike, he basically falls over with it. From what I can tell, it didn't take very long until there wasn't anything that anybody could have done. Also, he's small for a 10 year old. He looks about 8. My 9 year old is bigger than he is.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

1CSIMfan said:

Well.. i guess you could say he 'got off his bike' but I've been watching it over and over here and it really looks like he slows down and his bike tips and he goes down with it, which i thought was the explanation for the bump on his head when hes in the morgue.

He doesn't get off his bike, he basically falls over with it. From what I can tell, it didn't take very long until there wasn't anything that anybody could have done. Also, he's small for a 10 year old. He looks about 8. My 9 year old is bigger than he is.

I just rewatched the scene. Ruben stops the bike, swings his leg over to get off and then steps away from the bike leaving it to fall to the ground. There's also no indication of how long he had until "there wasn't anything that anybody could have done."

Saying there was nothing that could have been done is no less of a leap than saying he could have possibly been saved.

 

[kinkapoodles]

It still looks to me like his bike falls over. It doesn't really matter what we think happened. In the end, Ruben is dead. We can debate it all day but until you're in that situation, you don't know what you'd do (and I don't mean anybody in particular). Like I said before, it's easy to say 'he should have done this' or 'he should have done that', hours or days after it happened but when you only have a split second, what would you do?

 

[roximonoxide]

I just rewatched the scene. Ruben stops the bike, swings his leg over to get off and then steps away from the bike leaving it to fall to the ground. There's also no indication of how long he had until "there wasn't anything that anybody could have done."

I don't think he'd just drop the bike he loved enough to get blessed to walk the rest of the way home, by that point he seemed pretty unbalanced.

Yer right, there isn't any precise indicator, but using what we do know or, at least, what we can safely assume, a full grown adult can get woozy enough to pass out from losing even 1-1.5 pints of blood at a time, and Ruben is a pretty little guy.

It's not like we can pin down the exact amount of time with what we know, but if he was bleeding quickly enough to get lightheaded by that time, I think the chances of noticing the wound and stopping it in that window of time are still hair-thin.

And like CSIMFan's picture points out, he wasn't exactly a bloody mess, pretty tough to notice that under his hoodie... I wish he'd have come into the morgue with his hoodie on so we could see if it was all that visable.

 

[Top41]

1CSIMfan said:
I don't think that Danny telling Ruben to go home was irresponsible of him. There was a gunshot and there could have been more. Danny wanted Ruben out of there. How is that irresponsible? It makes it sound like Danny led Ruben into danger on purpose.

Telling him to go home rather than taking him home was irresponsible. No one is arguing Ruben didn't need to be taken away from the situation immediately. But essentially sending him off with what amounted to a "get out of here kid, I'll deal with you later" was pretty irresponsible and dismissive.

I watched the episode again and Danny DOES tell Ruben to wait for him at the corner and Ruben rides off anyway. Kids ignore their parents/guardians ALL the time. If he would have stopped, he wouldn't have gotten shot. Maybe it was Ruben's fault (which is just as crazy).

Again, this isn't really the issue, at least not in my eyes. Of course Danny had no control over Ruben impulsively riding ahead of him...and therefore getting shot.

And had Ruben's mother been with him, there's no way in hell she would have sent her son home on his own. Regardless, I think when you take charge of someone else's child you have an extra responsibility to make sure that child is safe. Danny was careless with that responsibility.

There's no way in hell I wouldn't have sent him home. If that had been one of my kids, you can bet your ass I would have told them to go home. Of course, I'm not a CSI so therefore I wouldn't have stayed at the scene but who's to say the kid wouldn't have died anyway. Also, when I am watching someone else's child, I take just as good care of them, if not better, than my own but I suppose since I think Danny did the right thing, I must be a crappy parent too.

You said it yourself: you wouldn't have sent your kid home alone. You would have gone with him. Being a CSI doesn't excuse Danny from not showing an ounce of common sense in this situation.

ETA: If Danny had been with Ruben when he started getting woozy, Danny would have known something was wrong and presumably would have gotten the kid to the hospital. Maybe Ruben would have lived, maybe he wouldn't, but if Danny had been with him and seen something was wrong, at least the kid would have had a chance.

 

[kinkapoodles]

You said it yourself: you wouldn't have sent your kid home alone. You would have gone with him. Being a CSI doesn't excuse Danny from not showing an ounce of common sense in this situation.

What I meant (it might not have came out this way) was that I would have told my kids to go home just like Danny did because Ruben was already ahead of Danny, therefore, I would have told them to get home and yes, I would have went home too but they still would have been ahead of me. From watching the scene, it doesn't look like Ruben gets too far into the alley before he starts having trouble. I don't see how an ambulance could have gotten to him in time. Due to the lack of blood (from my screencap above) it looks like Ruben probably had a lot of internal bleeding. That boy was doomed from the moment that shot was fired.

 

[Top41]

1CSIMfan said:

You said it yourself: you wouldn't have sent your kid home alone. You would have gone with him. Being a CSI doesn't excuse Danny from not showing an ounce of common sense in this situation.

What I meant (it might not have came out this way) was that I would have told my kids to go home just like Danny did because Ruben was already ahead of Danny, therefore, I would have told them to get home and yes, I would have went home too but they still would have been ahead of me. From watching the scene, it doesn't look like Ruben gets too far into the alley before he starts having trouble. I don't see how an ambulance could have gotten to him in time. Due to the lack of blood (from my screencap above) it looks like Ruben probably had a lot of internal bleeding. That boy was doomed from the moment that shot was fired.

Well, we'll never know because it was never said, so I think whether Ruben was doomed is very much up for debate. Whether he was or wasn't was not a question the episode answered, so at best it would be speculation on either side.

Regardless of whether your kids were ahead of you or right beside you, you would have been with them, and that's an important distinction. Danny wasn't with Ruben, and seems to have forgotten about him as soon as the kid was out of his sight.

 

[roximonoxide]

ETA: If Danny had been with Ruben when he started getting woozy, Danny would have known something was wrong and presumably would have gotten the kid to the hospital. Maybe Ruben would have lived, maybe he wouldn't, but if Danny had been with him and seen something was wrong, at least the kid would have had a chance.

Yep, that's true, Danny would have noticed him getting lightheaded... but if the boy didn't seem hurt, he wouldn't have immediately known he was shot. It was a fluke of a shot to begin with and if I was with someone who just got dizzy and lightheaded, I probably wouldn't check for bullet wounds as a first reaction.

Calling 911 is never a guaranteed save. People die everyday from a slow EMS response. And to get him to a hospital himself? Can Danny really run that fast?

The only thing Danny being with him would have changed is that Ruben wouldn't have been alone when he died. Yes, thats kind of heartwarming, but it wouldn't bring him back or make his death any less tragic.

For me it comes down to the fact that Danny's choice didn't help or hinder Ruben's death. His time was up, alone or not.

 

[kinkapoodles]

Regardless of whether your kids were ahead of you or right beside you, you would have been with them, and that's an important distinction. Danny wasn't with Ruben, and seems to have forgotten about him as soon as the kid was out of his sight.

I agree that Danny, at the least if he wasn't going after Ruben, should have called to make sure Ruben did indeed get home. He couldn't have been too busy to check up on him but then again, Rikki could have just as easily called him. How long did she expect them to be gone? I wouldn't think more than an hour or two. Danny had time to work the crime scene, go back to the lab, talk to Sid, and see Ruben in the morgue. How many hours was that...at least 4 maybe and that was after they had went to church. They could have easily been gone 5 or 6 hours. I would definitely be calling to make sure everything was ok.

Well, we'll never know because it was never said, so I think whether Ruben was doomed is very much up for debate. Whether he was or wasn't was not a question the episode answered, so at best it would be speculation on either side.

I was going by how quickly Ruben went down after he was in the alley saying he was doomed. It didn't take long and going by that, I doubt he could have been saved. EMS can only do so much and he probably wouldn't have made it if they had. Even if Danny had been with him, Ruben could have died anytime in between. That, we'll never know.

 

[Ceindreadh]

I don't think that Danny telling Ruben to go home was irresponsible of him. There was a gunshot and there could have been more. Danny wanted Ruben out of there. How is that irresponsible?

I found it very irresponsible that Danny was letting Ruben out of his sight when he didn't know where the danger was. Now if they'd been in sight of the apartment and Danny had told Ruben to run home and kept him in sight until he was safe, that would be different IMO. But he didn't. Now the outcome wouldn't have changed but I still feel it was irresponsible of Danny to just send him off like that and then not even check that he got home safely. That's almost worse to me, it's like once Ruben was out of Danny's sight that he just forgot about him. Ruben was Danny's responsibility. It was up to Danny to get him home or at least to make sure that he got home safely and he didn't even think to check? That's grossly irresponsible to me.

 

[cSiNyFrEaK30]

Ceindreadh said:

I don't think that Danny telling Ruben to go home was irresponsible of him. There was a gunshot and there could have been more. Danny wanted Ruben out of there. How is that irresponsible?

I found it very irresponsible that Danny was letting Ruben out of his sight when he didn't know where the danger was. Now if they'd been in sight of the apartment and Danny had told Ruben to run home and kept him in sight until he was safe, that would be different IMO. But he didn't. Now the outcome wouldn't have changed but I still feel it was irresponsible of Danny to just send him off like that and then not even check that he got home safely. That's almost worse to me, it's like once Ruben was out of Danny's sight that he just forgot about him. Ruben was Danny's responsibility. It was up to Danny to get him home or at least to make sure that he got home safely and he didn't even think to check? That's grossly irresponsible to me.

Exactly. Sending him home, in Danny's eyes at the moment, was the best thing to do to get him away from the danger--problem was, he didn't know WHERE the danger was when he did it. He heard a shot and saw a man running from the bodega. He didn't know how many people there were or how many shooters, or what the situation was. In this instance, i think he was wrong in sending Rueben home alone. Yes, it was an impluslive decision and he thought it would be safest for Rueben to get out of there quickly-but regardless of whether he sent him home or told him to "get down" when he heard the shots, he never checked on Rueben afterwards. Even if he didn't know he was shot, he had to know that the boy would be scared to death, and at least went to comfort him and make sure he got home alright. I think thats the only part we can 100 percent blame him for in this whole situation, IMO. Letting Rueben ride ahead of him: he's a ten year old, and will most likely have ridden ahead even if he'd been told not to; and Danny couldn't have known of the danger ahead.

I know we are in the dark as to whether or not Danny staying with Rueben would have saved his life, but I don't doubt that there would have at least been a chance for him if he had an adult with him. No, there wasn't much blood, but when Rueben began to pass out Danny would have surely realized something was wrong. Maybe it would have been too late already, but we'll never know if he would have had a chance.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

As Top and others have said, no one can say when Ruben "went down" - the flashback in the alley does not show anything other than his feet and his bike hitting the ground - or how long he lived after he got off/fell off the bike or if there would have been a chance to save him at all.

The wound being ultimately fatal and Danny not knowing he was injured does not negate Danny's responsibility to Ruben and to Rikki. The fact that Danny had Ruben's best interest in mind does not excuse Danny from letting a ten year old boy out of his sight on a NYC street. Danny being human allows for him to make judgement calls, allows for bad outcomes to happen despite his good intentions and allows others to have empathy/sympathy for his situation, but it doesn't take away his responsiblity for his actions.

I can't say what I'd do in Danny's situation. I may have done the exact same thing under the exact same circumstances (if I was an off duty CSI, etc.) Replacing myself with Danny in the scenario doesn't negate the responsibility owed Ruben and Rikki. I don't have children, so I can't imagine being in Rikki's shoes. I do know that if my ten year old nephew was in the exact same situation - with a trusted family friend who was an off duty CSI, etc. - I'd put part of the blame on that family friend for not putting my nephew first and staying with him when he was the adult in charge of his well being at the time.
ETA: Even if my nephew made it home safely I'd want to rip the family friend a new one for letting him out of their sight and sending him home without supervision, and I'd sure as hell hope my sibling wouldn't let that person be soley responsible for my nephew again.

I'll ask a speculative question of those who have children and don't think Danny should have any degree of responsibility. If it was your child who was in the exact same situation (with a family friend who was an off duty CSI, etc.), would you think the friend fulfilled their obligation to you and your child and their decisions had absolutely no part in the situation's outcome?