Switch of scenes in episode 4x19

[Kimmychu]

In the grading thread for episode 4x19, Personal Foul, I made a post stating suspicion that TPTB may have switched the placements of the Danny/Rikki scene and the Danny/Lindsay scene. Something just wasn't right about the flow of the story in the episode, especially due to Danny's bizarre behavior change from one scene to the other. For me (and quite a lot of people, it seems), things only made much more sense if the Danny/Rikki scene had taken place first before the Danny/Lindsay one.

Then, snickerdoodle posted the following in the grading thread:

I'm supposed to be working right now, but I put on the full episode of "Personal File" in the background to see if I was right about something I remembered. For those of you who believe that the segments when Danny calls Lindsay and when Danny speaks with Rikki have been flip-flopped, I think I have proof that it was flipped. If you look at Danny's left elbow on the counter when he is speaking with L, and he says "The truth is, I miss you", there is a flat grayish card that I believe to be Ruben's memorial card (that Danny picked up off the coffee table) laying there on the counter. Then if you watch the scene where he is walking to the counter after closing the door when Rikki leaves, there is a pad of paper on the counter to his left, but it is farther over and it isn't flat like the card is. Bingo.

Well, snickerdoodle ... you were absolutely RIGHT!

Upon making the following screencaps, not only am I 110% convinced the true storyline had been for the Danny/Rikki scene to happen first, but also that TPTB had filmed it all with the intention of showing the scenes as such until the very last minute. As to why TPTB decided to change the placement so late, well, I've written to CBS requesting for an explanation. :lol: This is too good to pass up!

Here's a screencap of Danny when he's on the phone talking to Lindsay:

Notice there's this black blob in the bottom right corner, behind the CTV logo? Nope, it's not some random technical glitch on the screen, that's a deliberately 'painted' black mass to cover up, oh I dunno, maybe Ruben's memorial pamphlet and Rikki's gift of a jar of sugar? :lol: It's a very common film editing thing and frankly, that black blob is one rough job! I can't believe TPTB didn't expect anyone to not notice that!

Here's more proof that the black blob is 'painted' on. It changes shape as the scene progresses. In this screencap, Ruben's memorial pamphlet is more visible. I think the black blob was definitely to cover Rikki's sugar gift. (Am I the only laughing hard at Danny's I-wanna-fall-off-my-seat-like-a-drunken-ass expression and posture? Don't even get me started on him sounding like a drunken werewolf who's about to hurl.)

And if anyone says that the pamphlet was probably there on the counter from the start ... nope, it wasn't. In the episode, Danny only takes a look at it in the Danny/Rikki scene, after he's walking from his front door to his coffee table where he pulls out the memorial pamphlet from between two books, as shown in the screencap.

Here he is sitting at the counter, staring at the pamphlet and there's Rikki's gift next to his left arm ... which would have been covered just right by the black blobs you see in the above screencaps.

snickerdoodle pointed out that there was a large stack of papers to the left of Danny. Yep, it's there and it is certainly too thick to be the flat, one-piece paper seen in the screencaps above. And anyway, if it was just a stack of paper and not Ruben's memorial pamphlet and Rikki's sugar gift ... why would TPTB have gone to the trouble of 'painting' a black mass there just to hide it? :rommie:

Something else of relevent interest: In the Danny/Lindsay scene, it was already raining. But in the Danny/Rikki scene, it only starts to rain when Rikki leaves and Danny's walking back into his apartment. You can hear the beginnings of thunder as he does, and if people want to bring up the dramatic effect reason, yeah, it would have been perfect to have the weather fit with Danny's mood after Rikki leaves.

What are you thoughts on this, people?

 

[Sammy11]

I have a few thoughts on this.

1) As Dutchtreat mentioned, that ending on the shot of Danny staring out the rainy window looked better. Although it reminded me of that shot of Joey in Friends with that table and the glass waterfall!! :guffaw:

2) Having Danny call Lindsey after Rikki saying that she was moving would have made it seem that Danny called Lindsey because he had no one else and all that jazz, making it near enough impossible for TPTB decide to make Danny and Lindsey a real couple (regardless of everyones opinions on the D/L romance).

If Lindsey were to go back to Danny/ Danny were to go ahead with a relationship with Lindsey, it would have been because Rikki was no longer there. Making Lindsey seem weak and desperate and making Danny seem like a needy, clingy jerk who can't function unless he is sticking it in a hole.

3) My other thought was that they wanted to give the actress portraying Rikki a decnt ending... instead of ending on D/L and having her departure seem a little lacklustre?

Personally I think it's point 2, but hey, in a way if it is I think they are right to do that. Regardless of my feelings with D/L, if TPTB were to have Lindsey and Danny getting together after Rikki leaves then they cheapen the storyline rolleyes and the characters within it, upsetting everyone (D/L fans and Non-D/L fans).

Now they can choose the direction of that particular relationship without changing anyone's view of the characters... ish.

 

[Elsie]

I was about to post this in the grading thread, but I'll bring it here instead:

My guess is that it simply wasn't until TPTB watched it back that they realised the scene didn't quite get across the strong D/L message they were hoping for. :lol:

I'm glad to see someone found evidence of those two scenes being switched, I thought the same thing when I initially watched the ep, and quite frankly Danny's call to Lindsay simply made more sense to me if it happened after Rikki said her goodbye, because now his support and comfort is gone, and he turns to Lindsay as a Second Fiddle, so to speak. I tend to agree with Dutch Treat, they might have switched the scenes in editing simply because that long shot of Danny made a more aesthetically pleasing ending. Regardless though, I do wish they would have kept the original sequence, it simply makes more sense to have Danny turn to Lindsay again after his major brush-offs, only because Rikki is truly out of his life, and not because he has been sitting around and pining for Lindsay. Because Lord knows, they've never shown any evidence of that, that I've seen.

To be fair, the script still essentially had Danny telling Rikki that he wasn't interested before Rikki told him she was leaving, my assumption being that he wanted to pursue a relationship with Lindsay. I think he told Rikki that he didn't think they should carry on what they were doing, although I don't remember the exact words. So I personally think that the intention may have been that Danny had already made his decision, but that he was still genuinely sad that Rikki was leaving. But regardless, if the scene with Rikki was placed before the phone call I definitely would have thought differently about the phone call, and not in a good way. Danny would have come across in a more negative light I think, and yes, that he was only pursuing Lindsay because Rikki was gone.

It reminds me a bit of 'Child's Play' and the switched the order of scenes there, which definitely made Lindsay look bad. They made an error with having Stella, Flack and Lindsay laughing and joking after finding out that Ruben had died, whereas the earlier conversation made it clear that the scene should have taken place before the scene with Danny walking away from Lindsay in the morgue.

Also, I have to admit, watching the phone call to Lindsay followed by Rikki coming over, I did kind of think that maybe Lindsay would turn up and catch them. :lol: Think of the drama! :lol:

My only other thought is that having the Rikki scene, followed by D/L phone call and Lindsay's 'rain walk' would have then meant, if I recall the episode correctly, that immediately following that would have been more Lindsay walking in the rain, to the closed subway and then more rain walking to find a cab = me being incredibly bored by the whole thing. :lol:

 

[Dawni]

Looking at that i never really thought about it.

But for aesthetics yeah it worked better than if it was other way round and the extra drama.

But surely if it was the right way round it shows Danny off in almost a better light because it shows he isn't just turning to Lindsay because he felt he should but because he had actually thought it through and possibly see's something, with his first line to Rikki.

 

[AppleJack]

While reading your post my mouth fell open with amazement. This totally passed me by. Probably because I was to busy blabbing to my screen out of boredom when these scenes were on.

The black blob fascinates me. It makes me want to search for it in all episodes of different tv shows I have on my hard drive. Since I don’t have time for that I must control myself.

Personally I think it's point 2, but hey, in a way if it is I think they are right to do that. Regardless of my feelings with D/L, if TPTB were to have Lindsey and Danny getting together after Rikki leaves then they cheapen the storyline rolleyes and the characters within it, upsetting everyone (D/L fans and Non-D/L fans).

Now they can choose the direction of that particular relationship without changing anyone's view of the characters... ish.

Exactly my thought on this. Including the ...ish. :lol:

 

[snickerdoodle]

Thank you Kimmychu for all your work with the screencaps!

In my opinion, the changing of the scene sequence completely changes the intent. For whatever reasons, TPTB decided to change the course and tone of the D/L angst.

The way it was shown in the final cut and having Danny call Lindsay before Rikki shows up, it's like they want us to believe that Danny's call has nothing to do with anything but Lindsay and how much he misses her. It played to me like "lookie, lookie, Danny wants to make all better." Poor sad Lindsay walking in the pouring rain. Poor sad Danny sitting in the dark as it starts to rain sounding like he's holding back the emo and tears. Aren't they sad and lonely without each other.

If they'd put the scenes in order that it appears they were filmed, and if evidence of the black blob proves, everything shows in a different light. When Danny opened the door to Rikki, he looked sleepy and light the hall light was bothering him after his darkened apartment. He did tell R that she was right and what they'd been doing to relieve their guilt was wrong. Never did he bring up that it was wrong because he'd hurt someone else, just that it was wrong of them to behave that way. It was after the disclosure that R was moving that his eyes appeared to tear up and the corners of his mouth pulled down and he was visably upset.

If the Lindsay call happened after Danny went back in side and picked up the memorial card, Danny is emotional about things other than how Lindsay feels. It is still about the grief of Ruben's death and also, I believe, about losing his source of comfort, Rikki, whether they recognized it was right or wrong. Danny did the right thing about letting Rikki know he recognized it needed to stop and he felt bad.

As MBGrissom said they've never shown us any evidence of Danny pining for Lindsay, and it makes no sense to me that since Danny has only brought up wanting or needing to talk to Lindsay that he suddenly is so obviously emotional about their relationship. Doesn't float for me. I'm sure it makes the D/L shippers happy, but the Danny feelings are coming out of left field from what has been shown previously. I'm sure Danny misses having Lindsay around like she was in the past and to have the cammaradarie that they did, but I don't think it merited the tortured Heathcliffe pining we got from the Danny side of that phone conversation.

It all makes more sense if it happens with the Lindsay convo after Rikki leaves. Just my humble opinion.

 

[febgrl24]

I guess I should be happy that TPTB switched the scenes, considering I ship D/L, but now actually knowing that they did that, I'm actually kind of upset about it. Everything that I thought and was happy about after the scene with Danny talking to Lindsay, then him answering the door for Rikki has completely changed. Now I realize since the scenes were switched, he wasn't calling Lindsay because he was actually missing her but that Rikki was moving and he no longer had someone around as a comfort. This totally blows!! I'll never look at that episode or that D/L scene the same way.

 

[Top41]

Man, great work snickerdoodle and Kimmychu! The evidence says it all, I think.

My only other thought is that having the Rikki scene, followed by D/L phone call and Lindsay's 'rain walk' would have then meant, if I recall the episode correctly, that immediately following that would have been more Lindsay walking in the rain, to the closed subway and then more rain walking to find a cab = me being incredibly bored by the whole thing. :lol:

Yeah, I think maybe part of the reason for switching the scenes was that, though it might have been more effective to have that in the correct order.

As MBGrissom said they've never shown us any evidence of Danny pining for Lindsay, and it makes no sense to me that since Danny has only brought up wanting or needing to talk to Lindsay that he suddenly is so obviously emotional about their relationship. Doesn't float for me. I'm sure it makes the D/L shippers happy, but the Danny feelings are coming out of left field from what has been shown previously. I'm sure Danny misses having Lindsay around like she was in the past and to have the cammaradarie that they did, but I don't think it merited the tortured Heathcliffe pining we got from the Danny side of that phone conversation.

I think Danny is just damaged and needy and can't deal with people giving up on him/abandoning him. No matter what the order of the scenes is, that's what I take from that phone call. Aside from saying he missed Lindsay--which I genuinely believe he does since he gravitates towards people who abuse or treat him poorly in some way--he never talked about how he felt about her. He didn't say he loved her. He didn't say he missed her. He told her to come over, presumably so he could finish reeling her back in with what we all know he apparently does best: sex.

 

[JellyBelly]

I guess I should be happy that TPTB switched the scenes, considering I ship D/L, but now actually knowing that they did that, I'm actually kind of upset about it. Everything that I thought and was happy about after the scene with Danny talking to Lindsay, then him answering the door for Rikki has completely changed. Now I realize since the scenes were switched, he wasn't calling Lindsay because he was actually missing her but that Rikki was moving and he no longer had someone around as a comfort. This totally blows!! I'll never look at that episode or that D/L scene the same way.

I wouldn't worry about it. Bottom line, the way it aired is the way it happened. I imagine they initially thought the fact Danny told Rikki what they had done was 'bad' before she told him she was leaving was a strong enough message that he was making a conscious decision to end it. But, when they watched it play out they realised it could make him (and Lindsay) look bad if their intention is to have the two of them back together.

 

[cecilia]

I don't get it. I mean, from what I understand, they film whatever scenes are most convinient. There was even a poster here who said that eps 18 and 19 were being filmed simultaneously. The ending for films are often filmed before the opening sequence. I don't think it matters when the scenes were filmed or even, for that matter, what was filmed. What airs on the screen is what airs on the screen. Everything else is just just something to be cleaned up from the cutting room floor.

 

[febgrl24]

I guess I should be happy that TPTB switched the scenes, considering I ship D/L, but now actually knowing that they did that, I'm actually kind of upset about it. Everything that I thought and was happy about after the scene with Danny talking to Lindsay, then him answering the door for Rikki has completely changed. Now I realize since the scenes were switched, he wasn't calling Lindsay because he was actually missing her but that Rikki was moving and he no longer had someone around as a comfort. This totally blows!! I'll never look at that episode or that D/L scene the same way.

I wouldn't worry about it. Bottom line, the way it aired is the way it happened. I imagine they initially thought the fact Danny told Rikki what they had done was 'bad' before she told him she was leaving was a strong enough message that he was making a conscious decision to end it. But, when they watched it play out they realised it could make him (and Lindsay) look bad if their intention is to have the two of them back together.

That makes sense! Thanks for making me feel better JellyBelly

 

[PalmettoHunna]

Being the cynical person that I don't really know if the scenes were switched or if the pamphlet is just a continuity issue. But I agree if the scenes were switched then it definitly changes the impact of the Lindsay/Danny call.

 

[dutch_treat]

LOL I think Adam would have a great time investigating 'The Black Blob' :guffaw:

I already began to wonder about this when Kimmy first mentioned it a couple of days back and now with all the evidence (great job snickerdoodle!) I must admit that the order of scenes has indeed been changed.

But again I think it was more about the pretty pictures and (like Elsie said) taking a break from Lindsay's rain walk than it was about D/L/R. Both Danny and Rikki were thinking about ending things between them and Danny even said it before he knew she was moving away, so if he had called Lindsay after that it would've seemed like he had made up his mind, told Rikki and then tried to get Lindsay to speak to him to have 'the talk.'

 

[Sammy11]

I don't get it. I mean, from what I understand, they film whatever scenes are most convinient. There was even a poster here who said that eps 18 and 19 were being filmed simultaneously. The ending for films are often filmed before the opening sequence.

Totally true, those scenes could have been the first thing Carmine (Danny) filmed of the whole episode even episodes. I would assume that he filmed those scenes simulatneously as they would have needed the same set, same wardrobe, lighting, etc. Once they set up a scene they'll do as many as they can.

Anna probably did her scene without Carmine even there or speaking to her!

I don't think it matters when the scenes were filmed or even, for that matter, what was filmed. What airs on the screen is what airs on the screen. Everything else is just just something to be cleaned up from the cutting room floor.

I agree what is shown, is what is shown. That's how the story plays out but I think from what has been talked about in other threads it's not that the continuity of the props but of Danny, in his "scene" with Lindsey he sounds choked up, almost like he's drunk and strung out and emotional (perfectly reasonable that he could be) but when he and Lindsey hang up and Rikki knocks for him, he sounds ok, like he was perfectly alright.

The Ruben pamphlet he looks at after Rikki knocks and tells him she is going, is visible (or supposed to be hidden) when he talks to Lindsey (who he shown to be talking to first) all wrung out, yet he picks it up on his way back from speaking to Rikki (who he speaks to second).

If you flip all that around you get, Rikki knocks, Danny wanders from somewhere in his apartment, opens the door, sees Rikki, he thinks she is calling for sex and tells her he thinks they should stop, she tells him actually thats not why she is calling but she is moving away for a fresh start as there are too many bad memories (oh the guilt Danny) but thanks him for being sweet and gives him the sugar (*wink wink*). On his way back from the door he picks up the pamphlet, sits at the counter and gets all emo (as is Danny's want), puts down pamphlet and stares out the rainy window (maybe realising that he losing all the people he is close too), calls Lindsey all upset and tells her he misses her and that he wants to be friends (I'm not quoting verbatim).

Those series of reactions, events and props and so on fit into one continous scene as it were.

Trust me if you are a supernatural fan it gets worse, they flipped two entire episodes... hmmm... didn't really work with some of the dialogue. At least with CSI:NY they keep it small.

I think they probably did (if they did indeed do it intentionally) to keep the audience in the dark about D/L and to keep the characters entact (no one ended up looking like the bad guy or weak).

All this is speculations and opinion on my part.

Both Danny and Rikki were thinking about ending things between them and Danny even said it before he knew she was moving away

I think thats why flipping it didn't matter so much. Danny didn't want things to carry on as they were, I guess he didn't expect that!!

so if he had called Lindsay after that it would've seemed like he had made up his mind, told Rikki and then tried to get Lindsay to speak to him to have 'the talk.'

I quite agree Dutchtreat - maybe I'm a complete cynic but had his mind made up for him...

 

[febgrl24]

LOL I think Adam would have a great time investigating 'The Black Blob' :guffaw:

I already began to wonder about this when Kimmy first mentioned it a couple of days back and now with all the evidence (great job snickerdoodle!) I must admit that the order of scenes has indeed been changed.

But again I think it was more about the pretty pictures and (like Elsie said) taking a break from Lindsay's rain walk than it was about D/L/R. Both Danny and Rikki were thinking about ending things between them and Danny even said it before he knew she was moving away, so if he had called Lindsay after that it would've seemed like he had made up his mind, told Rikki and then tried to get Lindsay to speak to him to have 'the talk.'

I like the way you think Dutch! Never thought about it like that since coming into this thread. I'm going to go with your thinking about the switching of the two scenes.