Switch of scenes in episode 4x19

Firstly I want to say that how blind TPTB think we are? :lol: I mean really, that black thingie covering up the right corner was so obvious.

That is what i like to believe they did. There is too much DL drama going around lately, and I prefer to think that the switch of the scenes was to put emphasis on Danny leaving Rikki and Ruben behind, and his emo pain washed away by the rain :lol: I haveto agree to the person (don't remember who though, sorry) who said that Danny is always emo. That is correct! :lol:

 

Personally Foul just aired over here and black spot is really noticable on a 32'' screen :lol: My sister decided to watch it with me and when the scene came up I couldnt help laughing- she was really confused. At least the room was dark....Imagine if his apartment had had bright lights on?!?

 

ITA. Thats exactlly how I see it too. The ending with him staring at the funeral program, to me seemed a more fitting end than him on the phone with Lindsay and her ending their call.

IMO, whatever way the scenes had of played out, Danny still ended it with Rikki before he knew she was leaving. He obviously had come to a concious decision to do that before she turned up at his door. I dont think he intended to end their friendship though, just their sexual relationship.

I honestly dont think the angle they were going for was to make Lindsay look like Danny's second choice, that would make it seem like Danny was toying with Lindsay's emotions. I think that him ending it with Riki, even if the scenes were kept as they were originally intended was to make it look like Lindsay was the reason he was ending things with Riki and that he had made a concious decision to move on with Lindsay and his life.

His words to Riki were were along the lines of "you were right, we made eachother feel good, but its bad, its a bad thing for us to do" I think Danny was alluding to what Rikki had told him in RND where she said "one day you will wake up and realize Rubens death wasn't your fault" at the time I think Danny's guilt blinded him to that fact that what they were doing was wrong, where as Rikki knew it was wrong even then.

I think Lindsay telling Danny she loved him and basically shutting him out was his wake up call. Now with Rikki gone and Lindsay shutting him out Danny is feeling just as alone as Lindsay is. I also think his words to Lindsay were very poignent" Maybe I understand a lot of things now, how about that" I think he was alluding to the fact that what he had with Riki wasn't love, it was exactlly what Rikki said it was and what Rikki said would happen, was happening, "one day you will wake up and realize Rubens death wasn't your fault". The way I interpreted that was, one day you will wake up and realize just what you have lost. Reason being I think Rikki was aware of Lindsay, when he answered the phone in RND he answered it with "Hey Linds" I believe that she overheard the call and his excuses as to why he couldn't meet her for lunch. Basically Danny was throwing his life away because of his guilt and grief and Riki was very aware of that fact.

The scene between F and D IMO was the shows way of showing the audience there was something between D and L, it was also meant to show how disconnected Danny had come from everybody. Even his best friend didn't know what was going on between D and L. All flack knew was that D and L had, had some disagreement. And Danny's laugh seemed to me like a nervous laugh kind of like an if only you knew laugh.

Its my belief that D and R had not been sleeping together since Lindsay's love confession. I don't think much time had passed between RND and PF maybe a week or a little more, I also don't belive its been that long since Ruebens death, maybe a Month or so.

Another reason I don't think the changed scenes make any difference to the outcome is, I dont believe that Danny would say what he said to Lindsay and then ask her over to his apartment to tell him "how hard he is to love" if he didn't mean what he was saying. Like I said, I dont think the show would have him toying with her emotions like that, that would make it look like he doesn't really give a crap about her, and he is only manipulating someone he knows is in love with him, because his other option is no longer around. That IMO is something I DON'T think Carmine would agree with. It makes Danny look like a self absorbed jerk and a total A**.


IMO this was always meant to deepen the relationship between D and L, AZ mentioned doing just that before the season started.

Also spoilers from both AA and Kirsten allude to the fact that

Spoiler: AA and Kirsten

D/L fans will be quiet pleased/not dissapointed. Do you think that Danny telling Lindsay he is in love with Rikki or Rikki coming back pregnant would make D/L fans pleased. I think not.....

So really is it that surprising things took this turn?



And where did the idea that Danny had been drinking come from, I didn't see any evidence of alchohol in his apartment?

 

CSI:NY--Killing chillunz for the sake of twu wub.

Sorry, I guess I'm part of the (possibly optimistic) group that hopes the Ruben storyline was created to develop Danny's character and showcase Carmine's acting, rather than simply so Danny and Lindsay could eventually get their boring-ass freak on again.

There's no evidence that he was drinking, but some of us definitely felt like something was off in that scene. I thought he sounded kind of drunk.

ETA: And no, I'm not trying to be a bitch/trash opinions/etc. The idea of this whole storyline being created as the 'bump' in the D/L relationship (regardless of who says it or where) just tweaks a nerve and makes me want to post that macro.

 

I think it makes Danny look inconsistent and flighty whichever way round the scenes are, and that's not the fault of the actor (I do think these recent story lines have given him scope to show off what he can do). If he called Lindsay just because he was after some company - which was the way I interpreted it - then he appears to be a little too self-centred and fickle. I can't see him having realised his 'true feelings' for her at that moment because of what has preceeded the episode, eg, not remembering her birthday. I don't think he is bothered about her, he's more bothered about himself. Danny's always struck me as someone who always needs a girlfriend (I had to go back and erase boyfriend there ), he needs a crutch. And although he needs someone to rest his emotions on, I don't think he is too good at letting someone rest their emotions on him, ie, he chases Lindsay, she starts to fall for him, he backs off. Lindsay goes cold fish, he gets interested again. The whole Rikki thing - yes, he was 'supporting' her, but he was also attempting to eradicate his guilt.
I loved the character of Danny, it was what involved me in CSI:NY to start with, but I don't like where the writers have taken him, and I'm not blaming that entirely on Lindsay.
As for the scenes again (trying not to digress too much) Danny's mood in the Lindsay scene followed what was caused in the Rikki scene, IMO. Danny/Rikki was comfort sex; both were using each other, and it would come to an end sooner rather than later. He clearly feels guilt at being shitty with Lindsay (and I have had ex boyfriends who would do exactly the same thing) but can't suss out a 'grown-up' way to mend what's happened without trying to jump back in the sack with her.
Should they have switched the scenes? IMO, no, because its obvious that they did. Rewrite them and refilm them, okay, but what TPTB have given us is something that's been hashed together.
As for Lindsay, at least she has some sense to not go straight round to his. I'm softening slightly towards her because of this and the Montana line I think was a way of showing her divide from him. But, alas, I must curb by rantings as that probably belongs in another thread.

 

In a way I agree with you, I think that making the kids death seem insignificant in the bigger scheme of things was a dumb a** move.

But this is TV..They had to find a way to bring the relationship to the for front. You cant just have two characters deepen a relationship, unless they create a situation where that can occur. It makes total sense to me, that they had to have Danny be with another woman to realise that Lindsay was the one he wants to be with. Thats why they created the Ruben situation and had the guilt factor added in. Though it doesn't condone what he did in my eyes, it certainly goes a way to explain how he must have been feeling. He closed himself off emotionally. He also disconnected himself from everybody whom he was closest too. Even Flack. I cant remember the exact words he said, but he basically told Flack to mind his own buisness in "All In The Family" Wasnt at all appreciative that Flack went out of his way, on his day off none the less, to help him.

It also makes sense that the show would want to show or have Danny fall in love. He was the character whom made the quip about never being able to find love in season one. So I can understand why the show would want us to actually see him utter those words to somebody on the show. He is also the most emotional, so his phoncall to Lindsay in my eyes didn't make him look desperate or look like he was losing his B***s. If he is emotional in every other facet of his life, why should he be any different in this part of his life?

I also understand why this person cant be Rikki, thats why they added the guilt factor in, that relationship could never be healthy. IMO Danny and Rikki had no common interests apart from the kids death, a shared grief and guilt thats it, Rikki basically alluded to the fact in RND when she said "before my son died, you were just someone I smiled at in the hallway and joked with at the mailbox". Once the grief and guilt started to ease, what basis would they have for a relationship, what would sustain it?

Also IMO why they added the the movie scene in Episode 17, that IMO was meant to be a stark contrast to R and D. D and L just connect,even after everything it was so easy for them to go back to the way they were before all this happened. They have common interests, they enjoy the same things, and even though on the outside they seem like opposites, they are very much alike.

Danny IMO was also the character with the most potential for growth. I have loved seeing the different sides to him, he's not just some emotional hot head, he does have a softer side. I think Carmine is looking at this from an actors point of view. He cant just play a character that never changes or evolves, a character that remains one dimensional, where is the challenge for him in that. What we are seeing makes Danny seem more real, it makes sense that a man in his thirties would mature, would want different things out of life, would have his priorities change. Maybe Rubens death somehow showed him something, maybe he realizes life is too short, maybe he realises he wants more out of life, maybe he wants a family of his own. Because personally I think he thought of Ruben as a son, I think thats why this affected him so much. At first I think he thought that person was Rikki, but once Lindsay shut him out of his life, I think he realised that, that person was Lindsay (as referenced by his "mabye there are a lot of things I understand now" line.) His heart is breaking, he feels so alone now, I think its a case of not realising what you have until its gone. I also think his "I swear to god, it wont ever happen again" line was very telling and carried a double meaning. It sort of fits with what I said above, I think Danny now realises he doesn't want to be with anyone else apparently ever.

Danny's words to Lindsay in PF came from the heart, I believe he totally meant every word he said, and so did Lindsay to some extent, because it pushed her to basically tell him she still loved him. But I can see why she would be hesitant to go over there, he hurt her, I think Danny is going to have to prove he really means what he says and like the person mentioned above, not just with sex, because I think the person above is right, I think Danny thinks thats the way to fix everything. IMO he is going to have to show her in some other way how he feels.

Maybe he gets a chance to do that in the finale. It seems the show are building up to something big.!!!

 

I'm going off topic here - although this thread has gone slightly off topic so

If TPTB wrote this storyline ot bring D/L together they've gone a funny way about it.

Precisely. It's TV and they need a dramatic situation to bring characters together (not necessarily romantically), after all it is drama, but Ruben's death didn't bring Danny and Lindsey together. It pushed them further apart.

Take "All Access" both Mac and Flack were there for Stella, Stella makes a point of saying thank you to Flack for helping her though it, and Flack makes a point of saying to Stella that as her friend he is there for her. Now I'm not saying I want to ship Stella/Flack (I know people who do), but it wouldn't take a huge leap of faith on the part of the audience to believe that Flack cares about Stella, he did it again in S4 (sorry can't remember the name of the episode) when Stella's apartment building catches fire. We see Flack saying that "Someone he cares about was in that building". If TPTB were to go there, we (the audience) have seen evidence of Flack BEING there for Stella, then they could have Stella realising that... I'm using this as an example not to start another ship BTW.

How does it prove that though?

Ever since Ruben was shot Lindsey and Danny have barely spoken. Now we haven't seen any evidence that he turned to anyone else, although we've canon proof that Flack told Danny he was there for him, that he had a friend. Nada from Lindsey, if TPTB wanted to use this to strengthen D/L it didn't work. Neither are emotionally mature to be good for each other, it proved that.

It proved that Lindsey can't be there for Danny, she can't be what he needs and he can't be what she needs.

When they have spoken, been in scene's together it's been all angsty and Danny trying to get Lindsey to talk to him.

How can he realise that he wants to be with a woman who hasn't been around to show him any support?

I think that is something everyone on would probably agree on. Rikki and Danny couldn't have lasted but I don't beleive Danny and Rikki ever wanted to be together I think we would have seen more proof in the original episode she was in, they had great chemistry together but I don't think it was love, neither do I think Rikki was brought in as a prop for D/L. She was an emotional crutch for Danny's character, someone to turn to in his time of need (as was he in hers).

I don't think Rikki had anything to do with Lindsey. I actually think and this really is my opinion it was about showing that Danny had matured and developed as a character, if you think back to the early Danny years he was incredibly emotional and prone to doing very stupid things, and whilst sleeping with Rikki was not healthy, he actually recognised that, he turned up to work (apart from when he went AWOL to stop Rikki from doing something stupid), he worked on a case (the drugs one with the kindergarten buildings) even saying to Mac he'd rather not be there. He has grown up a lot, yes he still makes mistake all adults do, we are just people, he still does things that might be unhealthy but make him feel better even if its just for a night or a few hours (I have no idea abuot Danny's stamina) but Danny has grown a little. Although Danny does love guilt but some character traits should neve disappear, Danny wouldn't be the same if he didn't blame himself for everything.

 

YES, this is my biggest peeve about the switch! It undermined Carmine Giovinazzo's acting, and after all the hard work he's put into building Danny's character (whenever he's not a flat, boring prop to Lindsay), seriously, he deserves better than that.

Very well said. Goes right along with his emo-ness being so out of left field too.

This thread would never have existed if they'd bothere to do a good job of it. :lol: The fact that it was such shoddy work spoke volumes by itself.

I agree with this. For once, Lindsay's character is becoming consistent. Like in episode 20, the way she was offhand about the Montana nickname, that implied of growing distance between her and Danny and that it wasn't bothering her as much anymore. Is is possible TPTB may finally make her an independent character who doesn't need Danny as a prop? After three seasons, it's a lot to hope for and I'm going to assume Danny will remain her prop until I see it for myself on screen.

... so let me get this straight. You think it's impossible for two characters to deepen a relationship unless some tragedy happens. And in this case, you think Danny could only possibly have a relationship deepen for him when a child under his care dies and he sleeps with another woman out of guilt? That's like saying there's no other possible storyline the writers could have come up with just for the sake of pushing D/L forward and that everything involving Danny has to be automatically connected to D/L too. Wow, that is pretty insulting to the writers' intelligence. And why must everything related to Danny have to do with D/L or push it to the forefront? Just goes to show you how much damage there is thanks to Danny being Lindsay's prop for so long.

Here's the thing: he clearly pushed Lindsay away, and he never pushed away the others as blatantly as he did her. Even when Angell came up to talk to him, he acknowledged her and even talked a bit about Ruben.

He did tell Flack he should have minded his own business, but Flack didn't skip a beat and told him, "You're my friend. Makes it my business." And did you notice how Danny hung his head after Flack calmly said that to him? Flack understood Danny didn't mean it and had said it in a short emotional outburst. Moreover, if Danny had been so determined to shut everyone he was closest to out of his life, he wouldn't have even allowed Flack to help him search for Rikki, much less give Flack half the list. Even at that time, Danny didn't shut him out, did he?

And oh, there's that basketball game they went to together, and Danny looking mighty happy and relaxed with Flack. Not the behavior of someone who's shut everyone he's closest to, that's for sure. He only shut Lindsay out.

Really? And I suppose the writers find it impossible to write romance for any of the other characters other than Danny just because of one little dialogue, hmm? Damn, those writers are pitiful, aren't they!

Well, I suppose if a dialogue makes a character's development set in stone ... Lindsay telling Mac it was 'stupid of her to ever get involved with a co-worker' must mean she'll never, ever be stupid enough to get involved with Danny ever again, doesn't it?

Emotional =/= illogical behavior. If you bothered reading the previous posts in this thread, you'll have read the reasons why Danny's phonecall was illogical and out of left field.

The irony is, you stated the reason why it is possible for a relationship to happen between Danny and Rikki if the writers had gone that route: You cant just have two characters deepen a relationship, unless they create a situation where that can occur. Sure, what brought them together was a terrible tragedy, but who is anyone to say a relationship couldn't have developed from that? So the writers 'threw in guilt' to 'make sure nothing could ever happen between Danny and Rikki'? Sorry, but that's plain shipper projection right there. The writers are more than capable of writing such a relationship if they'd gone that route. What is with this constant allusion that the writers couldn't possibly have written anything other story line to push D/L?! It's demeaning to them!

Interesting. To me, that scene only showed Danny trying to pretend things were fine and dandy between him and Lindsay and was testing Lindsay to see whether she'd talk to him since she was snubbing him after her Monologue of Doom. In fact, when she walked away, it showed how distant they were, physically and mentally. As for them having 'common interests and enjoying the same things', if that's the measuring stick we're going to use now for how deep and close a relationship is ... I'd say Danny and Flack have way more in common and enjoy the same things much more.

And it's been proven in numerous episodes on screen, all the way back to the pilot episode.

And ... the others don't? Sorry, that's a really flimsy excuse for justifying why Danny should be in a relationship with Lindsay, not to mention the rude implication that the other characters are expendable and not worth the development.

This is true, but your inference that this can only happen if Danny's in a relationship with Lindsay is amusing, to say the least. The writers did just fine with showing Danny's softer side with Ruben as well as Rikki, and neither ever involved Lindsay. So what does mean? Danny is more than capable of displaying a softer side without Lindsay.

:guffaw: This is probably the most ironic paragraph I've read in a long time. Danny evolving and changing from season one was what drew many viewers to the show. It was when he became Lindsay's prop from season two onwards that he stopped evolving or changing and became a one-dimensional shadow of himself.

The prop thing came straight from Mr. Giovinazzo himself, and I wholly agree with him.

Sure, everyone matures. You're implying that just because Danny's in his thirties now that he has to have his priorities change. That's not true at all. That's like saying someone who hits 21 would automatically want to change their priorities and their thinking. Some people can go through their whole adult life never changing their priorities and some people can change their priorities every day like they change their underwear.

I don't even want to go into Danny wanting a family of his own after Ruben's death. A child who died in his care. Do you think a man who's still feeling guilty about an innocent child dying when he was supposed to be watching out for him would want to get married and have children of his own within a matter of weeks? The last thing he'd want right now is to have children and then wonder every day if they're going to die in his care just like Ruben did. Again, this is simply projection of shipper wishes.

Uh huh. You got that, just from him saying he misses her and that he promised he won't push her away again? Has it ever occurred to you that people can say things they don't mean? That people can lie if it means getting what they want? Life is hardly black and white.

And by the way, fanon is not canon.

 

Note to self: first type the long reply in Microsoft Word and then paste it here because you will lose it. Moving on..

Firstly I want to say that the switching of the scenes was so blatantly obvious and that damn black thing was staring us right in the face and almost screaming “You are an idiot”. I am sorry, but me as a viewer I felt really insulted by the modification, not to mention that the acting that was going on in those scenes was beyond illogical.

Moving on to the Danny and Lindsay never-ending story. Honestly I am so tired by this whole affair. I can’t stand it anymore, I have ran out of words to talk about it and it’s not interesting to me at all. I only wish that they solve their shit, together or not I couldn’t care less and let me enjoy the show I love in the proper manner. If the CSI:NY crew has come to use tricks like the magical black blub just to try hard not to make Lindsay look like the second violin for Danny then it’s just sad. Not only this, but the editing made Carmine’s acting look like The Learning Curve again: illogical and weird. I just couldn’t look and I still can’t watch that scene without having to cover up my eyes.

The only thing this relationship makes Danny is involve. Moving backwards from a three dimensional character to a one dimensional one. I looked back at the Danny in season 1, and that was a strong character. We didn’t know that much about him, he was a tough guy, stubborn, with methods of his own, difficult to tame, had this strong mysterious air to him and still he looked vulnerable because of the Tanglewood episode and On The Job. He had a beautiful dynamic with Stella. I look back at Recycling and seeing those two is just brilliant. He had the mentor-student, father-son (at times) relationship with Mac, Aiden was his friend and Flack his buddy (and more ). That was three dimensional. After season one, everything is gone, thrown away to the trash chute only because that same Danny I described above has the hots for a girl, a girl who treats him like crap until the events from Sleight Out Of Hand. That in my book is not evolution, or development. It’s called destroying a character to make another one look good. So yes I agree. Sid must give Danny his balls back. It stopped being funny a long time ago.

I think that if Danny form season 1 would meet Danny from season 4 he will beat the crap outta him :lol:

And from this line all I read is “Lindsay is Danny’s one true love”. He also wants to have kids with her after Ruben’s death because that made him open his eyes to the world and understand that he wants children. *raised eyebrow*.

The only possible reason for the switching that I see is the fact that they realized that Lindsay will look bad if Danny would have called her after the Rikki thing. Once again, the show was completely and literally turned upside down for only one character.

I prefer to go with Top’s opinion of the switch. The fact that they tried to get a sort of a closure for the Ruben storyline, which now has officially entered the CSI:NY black hole. *waves to Ruben and Rikki*

 

*gasp! shock! horror!* Could it be, dear fans, that we have seen the black hole of continuity?! Is it possible that we have witnessed the black hole gaining corporeal form in order to gobble up the funeral program and sugar bowl in the corner of the screen?

Damn, yo, this is better than a sighting of the Loch Ness Monster!!!!!!!

*cough*

Moving on...

What the switch comes down to for me is, like Kimmy said, the fact that we could tell. If Danny's behavior/Carmine's acting hadn't seemed weird, who would have thought to wonder about it and, looking back, notice the BLACK HOLE OF CONTINUITY in the corner of the screen? The scenes weren't neatly interchangeable as they were filmed, and changing them last-minute makes me curious about why. Did they do it because D/L must live on and have lots of babies like omgrightnow? Did they do it because having Rikki at the end gave closure to the storyline as well as the episode and because the 'end' of the episode put some extra importance on the moment between them?

Ultimately, I have no f*cking idea, but it would be better if the switch hadn't been glaring. Why was it written, presumably revised, and even filmed in one order and then quick-changed afterwards? Was it worth making Carmine's acting seem off-the-mark?

As for Danny only 'maturing' if he wants to settle down and get Lindsay knocked up, not to mention the idea of Ruben's death making Danny want kids...:vulcan: I would think feeling responsible for the death of a child would make Danny not want to be responsible for children again any time soon. I think it would make Danny feel he'd be a s*it parent, although I imagine that's part of him probably thinking he's a s*it human being altogether.

If a person is going to start a family, they should do it for the right reasons--and I don't think guilt over feeling responsible for the death of a child is a good reason to start procreating.

 

We have witnessed the first showing of that special black hole that stuff disappears into - TV show continuity, character development, that sock you couldn't find from your load of laundry last week...

Like Kimmy, my biggest peeve with the whole switch was that it made Carmine's acting look way off the mark. In the scene with Lindsay, Danny looks for all the world like he's about to break into pieces and then he's fine with Rikki at first? I think it is so totally and utterly blatantly obvious that these scenes were filmed to be the other way around, even without the evidence of the blob.

You know, I'm sick of hearing that 'Danny having his balls chopped off = Danny maturing' argument. I wasn't aware that Danny was particularly immature in the first place...he was just your typical bloke with no particular strings to tie him down.

I hearby sign my first-born over to you...should I ever have one...

 

The Black Hole of Continuity has been spotted! Behold, non-believers, and you shall BELIEVE!



:lol: Yes, I amuse myself sometimes.

Exactly. Well-worded, Top.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: I have seen it on LJ and man, I am still laughing. We have finally found out where the black hole is located maybe we can pull out old stuff from it :lol: