Now That Petersen, Fox, Dourdan Are Gone

[Criminologist86]

But, we have only experience Ray for 11 episodes so far. We had Grissom for NINE years. There is no basis for comparison. If they made Ray so likeable early on, then ppl would complain they are making him too likeable or whatever. I say give Ray and TPTB more time to create this character before we judge him so harshly.

I disagree in your thinking that we are judging "harshly". I think it's a well founded one- I would think that a small connection would have been made by now, at LEAST a small connection, & clearly, for some, it hasn't happened yet. I don't disagree with you entirely though, because 11 episodes, while it is PLENTY of time (in my mind) to have at least a hint of connection (at least), it's not quite enough to get hugely involved with the character of Ray Langston, so I will give you that ;p

However, if there's not some kind of interest to teh character right off the bat, regardless of the show, the interest is a lot harder to get later on, and it is harder to hold onto in the long run. I think right now they'll have to dump a lot of stuff on us to get us interested in Langston, and then they will have quite a bit less 'material' to throw at us with regards to him later.

 

[Adzix]

^ yeah i think one thing about Ray is that he does not have this enigma quality about him that we all loved about Grissom. Langston is very human, very normal, so to speak. i was always curious about the reasons for many of Grissom's actions. he was always fascinating. it takes a lot to make a character who is very calm, collected, and many times predictable (which theoretically should equal dull), this captivating.

Grissom's oddness was a trademark, and since year 2000 TV shows became overflooded with new characters getting weirder and weirder (Monk, House, Horatio, Dexter etc.) and succeeding in ratings. it's not like Grissom was the first odd one on the planet, but i think that he brought this theme of oddness back. that you could be different and nerdy, but still cool.

and it's not like i don't like Langston, he just doesn't fascinate me. he seems like a regular M.D. working as a CSI and being a rookie. everything he does, i understand. wearing a tie to crime scene, carrying an oversized kit, walking to the morgue with a sandwich, bumping heads with Hodges is nothing that makes him a unique character. it might be too early to pass such a drastic judgement, but this is how i feel so far.

honestly though, i like it that way. i like that they don't try to make Langston overly original and just as odd as Grissom was. i know that if they did try, it would annoy the heck out of me (like Keppler did at the beginning.) so even though i don't care much about Langston, i don't think there is anything that could be done to make things better for me. simply b/c i don't really want to have another Grissom. and as cliche as it sounds, there could be only one. *shrugs*

 

[Criminologist86]

^ yeah i think one thing about Ray is that he does not have this enigma quality about him that we all loved about Grissom. Langston is very human, very normal, so to speak. i was always curious about the reasons for many of Grissom's actions. he was always fascinating. it takes a lot to make a character who is very calm, collected, and many times predictable (which theoretically should equal dull), this captivating.

Grissom's oddness was a trademark, and since year 2000 TV shows became overflooded with new characters getting weirder and weirder (Monk, House, Horatio, Dexter etc.) and succeeding in ratings. it's not like Grissom was the first odd one on the planet, but i think that he brought this theme of oddness back. that you could be different and nerdy, but still cool.

and it's not like i don't like Langston, he just doesn't fascinate me. he seems like a regular M.D. working as a CSI and being a rookie. everything he does, i understand. wearing a tie to crime scene, carrying an oversized kit, walking to the morgue with a sandwich, bumping heads with Hodges is nothing that makes him a unique character. it might be too early to pass such a drastic judgement, but this is how i feel so far.

honestly though, i like it that way. i like that they don't try to make Langston overly original and just as odd as Grissom was. i know that if they did try, it would annoy the heck out of me (like Keppler did at the beginning.) so even though i don't care much about Langston, i don't think there is anything that could be done to make things better for me. simply b/c i don't really want to have another Grissom. and as cliche as it sounds, there could be only one. *shrugs*

That, too, is a VERY good point! Fascination is certainly part of Grissom's appeal (yes, ladies, we love him for his brains, not just his sexiness ;p), and always will be. I love how you said it's his trademark- that's genius!
I agree with you as well; Langston seems very normal/stereotypical everyday guy and there's not much to grab onto or say "oh, I wonder about (insert aspect of Langston here)" about, because he's just what you'd expect from an M.D/professor turned CSI. I think that's a little of what disappoints me about him...Grissom is someone you'd think would either A) be a genius recluse B) Be soley involved in academics, but NEVER would I picture him as a CSI...I just wouldn't see him in that capacity- he's such a loner. But the HIGH interest element comes in when you see that Grissom IS a CSI, and he's GOOD at it. That grabbed and held EVERYONE who is a CSI/Grissom veteran. Langston doesn't have, or hasn't shown us that yet, and that is a wee disappointing.

 

[myfuturecsi]

Grissom's oddness was a trademark, and since year 2000 TV shows became overflooded with new characters getting weirder and weirder (Monk, House, Horatio, Dexter etc.) and succeeding in ratings. it's not like Grissom was the first odd one on the planet, but i think that he brought this theme of oddness back. that you could be different and nerdy, but still cool.

But trends change, and I didn't find Grissom very interesting anymore especially after he and Sara got together. They were intellectual snobs in my opinion and there were times when Grissom would ramble some trivial fact and I'd be thinking, "Oh enough already." In fact I think Super Dave said something similar and I applauded him.

I like Grissom too, but he bored me after a while and the last 10 episodes he was where he was pining for Sara drove me nuts. Only in 19 Down did I see Grissom kind of get back into his groove when he took on the DJK killer. That very last scene with Sara I could do without.

Characters like Grissom kind of come and go as TV is very flighty in that regard. What's trendy today is not necessary trendy tommorow.

CSI was wise to bring in someone like Langston who relates well to his teammates and crime victims. You can only be a prickly pear and an oddball for so long and after a while it takes his toll. I felt the team was splintered by season seven. You had Sara and Grissom with Greg tagging along. You had Nick and Warrick and Catherine on the other side.

I rarely saw either Sara or Grissom working with the other team mates which I surmise was a ploy to pander to the demands of the GSR crowd one of whom quoted, "Well the others can have their 'special episodes' but the rest better be GSR." I lost respect for the writers of CSI in season seven because of the GSR factor and Grissom's character waned on me and he became a hypocrite for getting angry with Nick and Catherine for allowing their emotions to affect the case while he was slepping with a subordinate the whole time. That's why the CSI fandom became fractured and now the damageis done and it can't be fixed. GSR fans were touting their 'win' for the entire season and the last episode of Grissom.

Sorry I don't mean to rant, but I want to explain why I'm glad Grissom is gone because I can't separate him from GSR.

 

[Criminologist86]

Grissom's oddness was a trademark, and since year 2000 TV shows became overflooded with new characters getting weirder and weirder (Monk, House, Horatio, Dexter etc.) and succeeding in ratings. it's not like Grissom was the first odd one on the planet, but i think that he brought this theme of oddness back. that you could be different and nerdy, but still cool.

But trends change, and I didn't find Grissom very interesting anymore especially after he and Sara got together. They were intellectual snobs in my opinion and there were times when Grissom would ramble some trivial fact and I'd be thinking, "Oh enough already." In fact I think Super Dave said something similar and I applauded him.

I like Grissom too, but he bored me after a while and the last 10 episodes he was where he was pining for Sara drove me nuts. Only in 19 Down did I see Grissom kind of get back into his groove when he took on the DJK killer. That very last scene with Sara I could do without.

Characters like Grissom kind of come and go as TV is very flighty in that regard. What's trendy today is not necessary trendy tommorow.

CSI was wise to bring in someone like Langston.

I don't think being 'trendy' has any relevance with this question...it's why fans dislike either Langston or LF, and whether or not there's a fan to character/actor connection.
I hated the last scene with Sara too, I will agree with you on that point.
Some people felt Grissom was too knowledgable, but I think his 'ranting' was adorable and it showed how well read and brilliant he is, and set him apart from the other CSIs and characters- too many things he did were just so uniquley Grissom that you just have to laugh when they happen.

LF certainly has a lot of work in regard to 'fitting in' ahead of him....Good luck, bud.

 

[myfuturecsi]

don't think being 'trendy' has any relevance with this question...it's why fans dislike either Langston or LF, and whether or not there's a fan to character/actor connection.
I hated the last scene with Sara too, I will agree with you on that point.
Some people felt Grissom was too knowledgable, but I think his 'ranting' was adorable and it showed how well read and brilliant he is, and set him apart from the other CSIs and characters- too many things he did were just so uniquley Grissom that you just have to laugh when they happen.

LF certainly has a lot of work in regard to 'fitting in' ahead of him....Good luck, bud

As much as I like Langston, I think expecting fans to instantly like him might have been too ambitious on the writers' part.

 

[Kimbo08]

Agreed. With the "judge him harshly" I didn't mean 'we' as in anyone on this board. I mean people in general. I have been to other boards and see how people judge him and I just want to know WHY!

Yes, Grissom was a staple for the show. That can go without being said. I for one, did not really like Grissom after season two. I don't know why, but his "complexity" seemed forced to me. Like an infinite-sided enigma. Doesn't really tickle my fancy.

I think they brought LF on as a ratings boost and to bring in other demographics. So, I understand why so people don't want him on. But I guess it is all about personal definition. Because for me Langston is fitting in fine, and from many MANY articles LF is fitting in fine as well.

Fans thinking that LF can come in and just fill WP shoes is just a tad unrealistic. It takes time. He's been in for 11 episodes and we are talking about a bond that these people have created over a nine year time spand. So I say give him a little bit more time. He will come into his own.

Back to GE's article, it sounds like things are more harmonious backstage now. LF says it's a perfect fit and many people have said that is going great. So to me, it sounds like things are going great!

No one has really explained to me why they dislike Langston so much. I just want some clarification. Because it seems like the people who like him the least are mainly WP fans. In all fairness, we knew WP was leaving for a while, and you had to know they were going to bring someone (in this case 2) in to "replace" him. He wasn't going to fit in right away. TPTB forcing him on us is a little, well, forced, but it's almost like that is the only reason people don't like him. That, and the fact that he doesn't have a tick or a mystery to him, like Gil did.

Another thing, I think people are just setting their expectations to high. I hate to rant (kind of ) but I'm just trying to understand...

 

[Adzix]

Sorry I don't mean to rant, but I want to explain why I'm glad Grissom is gone because I can't separate him from GSR.

that's ok. i was just replying to the question why some WP fans don't like Langston. i myself, don't dislike him but i don't love him either. i'm more on a neutral side. and i'm not going to go into any GSR-related topics b/c that usually doesn't make a nice discussion.

No one has really explained to me why they dislike Langston so much. I just want some clarification. Because it seems like the people who like him the least are mainly WP fans.

i explained why i don't care about him in a pretty precise manner. and i believe a lot of people feel similar. on the other hand i realized that anti-GSR people really like Langston. i guess it's b/c they have a new lead who is not involved in a relationship they didn't like. so, you see, it could go both ways.

 

[Criminologist86]

Agreed. With the "judge him harshly" I didn't mean 'we' as in anyone on this board. I mean people in general. I have been to other boards and see how people judge him and I just want to know WHY!

Yes, Grissom was a staple for the show. That can go without being said. I for one, did not really like Grissom after season two. I don't know why, but his "complexity" seemed forced to me. Like an infinite-sided enigma. Doesn't really tickle my fancy.

I think they brought LF on as a ratings boost and to bring in other demographics. So, I understand why so people don't want him on. But I guess it is all about personal definition. Because for me Langston is fitting in fine, and from many MANY articles LF is fitting in fine as well.

Fans thinking that LF can come in and just fill WP shoes is just a tad unrealistic. It takes time. He's been in for 11 episodes and we are talking about a bond that these people have created over a nine year time spand. So I say give him a little bit more time. He will come into his own.

Back to GE's article, it sounds like things are more harmonious backstage now. LF says it's a perfect fit and many people have said that is going great. So to me, it sounds like things are going great!

No one has really explained to me why they dislike Langston so much. I just want some clarification. Because it seems like the people who like him the least are mainly WP fans. In all fairness, we knew WP was leaving for a while, and you had to know they were going to bring someone (in this case 2) in to "replace" him. He wasn't going to fit in right away. TPTB forcing him on us is a little, well, forced, but it's almost like that is the only reason people don't like him. That, and the fact that he doesn't have a tick or a mystery to him, like Gil did.

Another thing, I think people are just setting their expectations to high. I hate to rant (kind of ) but I'm just trying to understand...

It's not only a tad unrealistic, it'll never happen. Billy Petersen has gone to heights and done everything to the utmost best it can possibly be done...He's reached the nirvana of the acting world- something I believe Langston/LF can only dream of.

I honestly think the entire issue with WP (hardcore) fans not liking Langston that much is that we are SOO SOOO SOOOO in love with Billy/Grissom and so enthralled by him, that anything less than THE man is a huge disappointment. That, ladies and gentlemen, is what I think, and I do speak for myself.

 

[myfuturecsi]

[QUOTEI honestly think the entire issue with WP (hardcore) fans not liking Langston that much is that we are SOO SOOO SOOOO in love with Billy/Grissom and so enthralled by him, that anything less than THE man is a huge disappointment. That, ladies and gentlemen, is what I think, and I do speak for myself.[/QUOTE]

Hey you're honest, that deserves credit. I for one never cared for him after season..two maybe three..liked him a bit during season five but then when GSR became canon it was sayonara Grissom because I couldn't stand Sara after season three and I couldn't stand GSR.

Back to GE's article, it sounds like things are more harmonious backstage now. LF says it's a perfect fit and many people have said that is going great. So to me, it sounds like things are going great!

I was actually very impresssed with George's candor in that interview. Now I really don't think he meant to call Jorja a diva, but I do think from what I read the environment became very negative in the past couple of seasons, particularly after the stunt Jorja Fox pulled when she didn't show up for what was supposed to be her death scene in Living Doll. Then top that off with Gary's problems and Billy's itchin' to go to the stage, the environment must have been pretty nasty. Nothing like working with people who didn't want to pull their weight to make for a negative environment.

So, while I'm sad that we lost Warrick and Grissom, I'm glad the drama backstage is gone as it showed in the last two seasons. The problem is, the fanbase is fractured now and that can't be healed.

 

[Adzix]

^ well, i never believe everything mags/tabloids say. we've never been on the set so it's hard to say anything truthful based on random information that leaked out and was later published on gossip blogs. *shrug*

 

[jafox]

[QUOTEI honestly think the entire issue with WP (hardcore) fans not liking Langston that much is that we are SOO SOOO SOOOO in love with Billy/Grissom and so enthralled by him, that anything less than THE man is a huge disappointment. That, ladies and gentlemen, is what I think, and I do speak for myself.

Hey you're honest, that deserves credit. I for one never cared for him after season..two maybe three..liked him a bit during season five but then when GSR became canon it was sayonara Grissom because I couldn't stand Sara after season three and I couldn't stand GSR.

Back to GE's article, it sounds like things are more harmonious backstage now. LF says it's a perfect fit and many people have said that is going great. So to me, it sounds like things are going great!

I was actually very impresssed with George's candor in that interview. Now I really don't think he meant to call Jorja a diva, but I do think from what I read the environment became very negative in the past couple of seasons, particularly after the stunt Jorja Fox pulled when she didn't show up for what was supposed to be her death scene in Living Doll. Then top that off with Gary's problems and Billy's itchin' to go to the stage, the environment must have been pretty nasty. Nothing like working with people who didn't want to pull their weight to make for a negative environment.

So, while I'm sad that we lost Warrick and Grissom, I'm glad the drama backstage is gone as it showed in the last two seasons. The problem is, the fanbase is fractured now and that can't be healed.[/quote]



Well, I guess we are back to the Sara/GSR bashing so I have to chime in. Adzix is right; we don't know what goes on backstage. I doubt that George is an angel all the time either. And I have had to defend Jorja many times on this board for her 'candor', which is mostly misinterpreted. And the rumors about her 'death scene', started by our dear Ausiello, have been repeatedly debunked. I think they are a family, they worked closely together for 8 years, we've seen them socialize with each other, and they remain friends, as evidenced by their behavior at WP's star ceremony. Families have squabbles, but in the end they support each other.
And I don't think the fanbase is fractured. But those who continually bring up their past grudges, don't help matters. And these are the same people who accuse WP and JF fans of not moving on. The same ones who keep harping about how something, or someone, ruined the show, when it was on top for 8+ years. They were obviously doing something right.
I'm glad some like the show better now. I don't, but I'm not around here being all negative. I'm still watching, trying to stay involved, but not with the same fanaticism. And I think that might be a good thing.

Sorry Desiny. I'll slap myself. Rant over.

 

[myfuturecsi]

Well, I guess we are back to the Sara/GSR bashing so I have to chime in. Adzix is right; we don't know what goes on backstage. I And I have had to defend Jorja many times on this board for her 'candor', which is mostly misinterpreted. And the rumors about her 'death scene', started by our dear Ausiello, have been repeatedly debunked.

Jorja's stunt was reported in several newspapers including the Toronto Star in my town as well as the New York Times. She was also acting up many, many times that past year wanting more screentime and for GSR to be written a certain way.

doubt that George is an angel all the time either.

Yes but he's admitted it in many interviews. I don't recall Jorja fessing up and admitting her behaviour caussed negativity and Gary ranted about the show in a European interview givng me pause to think he's not admitted his problems with addiction caused problems on the set.

And I don't think the fanbase is fractured. But those who continually bring up their past grudges, don't help matters. And these are the same people who accuse WP and JF fans of not moving on. The same ones who keep harping about how something, or someone, ruined the show, when it was on top for 8+ years. They were obviously doing something right.

Sadly, the fanbase is very fractured as can be seen in other websites.

And I'm not bashing Jorja. I was okay with Sara up until season four.

 

[Destiny]

I think folks need to breath, and relax, you're all ramped up and honestly this is about a fictional show, with fictional characters. At some point in time there is tension on shows, there is no such thing as the happy go lucky cast, and if you hear otherwise then someone is doing some spinning. What I am saying is that your all covering the same argument coming full circle. You want to discuss which team was better then guess what we have a thread for that. - BUT lets face FACTS NOT ONE of the actors/actresses are prefect, they never have been, they never will be, and to put them up on that pedestal is not fair to them nor to any of you. They have all proven they are not infallible.

At some point in time an actor/actress will want to leave a show even a hit one, for reasons of their own (be it not to be type cast, be it to do other things) but that show will usually fill in that vacancy with another actor who never promised to be just like the person who just left, nor should they, and no should they be treated as such. It is unrealistic to think that any actor/actress can replace a beloved character.

I personally do not like the term "Replaced" to me that is more like taking over a role that another actor/actress has left and that is not the case here, the new actors/characters that come in are doing so while trying to build their characters with the material they are given. Honestly I wasn't attached to anyone actor/actress on the show nor their character, they were all good, but I am not going to push aside new incoming actors/characters who have the potential to help the show out and keep it going forward, with the remaning cast. I am not going to get into the Ship discussion, you all know that has a very short leash in this forum, so keep it on that leash.

A good healthy debate/discussion is always that good, but when you get defensive or forget to take a breath and ask why a person believes this or that, then your not getting anywhere.

 

[Criminologist86]

Hey you're honest, that deserves credit. I for one never cared for him after season..two maybe three..liked him a bit during season five but then when GSR became canon it was sayonara Grissom because I couldn't stand Sara after season three and I couldn't stand GSR.

Back to GE's article, it sounds like things are more harmonious backstage now. LF says it's a perfect fit and many people have said that is going great. So to me, it sounds like things are going great!

I was actually very impresssed with George's candor in that interview. Now I really don't think he meant to call Jorja a diva, but I do think from what I read the environment became very negative in the past couple of seasons, particularly after the stunt Jorja Fox pulled when she didn't show up for what was supposed to be her death scene in Living Doll. Then top that off with Gary's problems and Billy's itchin' to go to the stage, the environment must have been pretty nasty. Nothing like working with people who didn't want to pull their weight to make for a negative environment.

So, while I'm sad that we lost Warrick and Grissom, I'm glad the drama backstage is gone as it showed in the last two seasons. The problem is, the fanbase is fractured now and that can't be healed.

Thanks ;p I definitley wouldn't lie about the way I feel about Billy j Buuut I'm sure ya'll know that

I agree with you about Sara- I appreciate Jorja Fox (I try for her, at least, to separate character from actress) as an actress/person, but Sara, to me, was just not very loving or open about much of anything, and I think she wanted some kind of personal connection with people so much that the only way she knew how to get it was to push them away, even when she was suffering and needed someone. However, I love Jorja Fox like no other

D I agree with you about the term "replaced", that makes perfect sense to me and I think it's pretty clear that LF has NOT in any way replaced Billy/Grissom, he's introduced a new character, nothing more. If he were replaced, LF's character's name would be named Grissom. Oooh...bad thought. *shudders*
Anyways, I Think everyone is doing a great job of remaining calm and collected with this discussion...I have seen debates (as I'm sure you have) get really bad, but I think everyone is doing perfectly here ;p

I understand what you're saying about the fictional show, but that show helped me realize that I was totally on the wrong career path in nursing school and I needed to change my major to Criminal Justice and do crime scene investigation stuff...The show made me realize what I really want to do with my life, and I am forever grateful for that; which is one small reason why the "show" is so much more than a show to me.