Horatio/DC #15: 'Back To Basics'

Agree with you completely, Delynn. This downward spiral needs to have its place, otherwise its just a simple case of bad writing. I hope it does lead to a potential love interest who can knock some sense into him and make him confront his mommy issues already. I've said it for ages now: Horatio needs a woman to show him that women can live and breathe just fine without his help, and that they can certainly defend themselves.
 
Delynn said:
Okay. I'm really becoming concerned about where they are going with Horatio. Watching the writers on this show destroy other characters to the point where I can't stand to even see them in a scene, really has me worried about what their planning is for Horatio.
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I totally agree (posted something similar on the "Wheels Up" episode thread, which, IMHO, was a good episode if not for those last 3 minutes....)

Their first mistake was getting rid of Megan, or at least a character like her. While I didn't see it at the time, because I don't think it was necessary at the beginning, Horatio REALLY needs someone to get in his face and tell him the truth.
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Interesting...I bet a lot of people on these boards may not even know who Megan was, unfortunately. The show's history has really been lost the last few years, unfortunately. I agree that someone needs to keep H accountable, and Megan was kind of a good "foil" - unfortunately, there wasn't really much "chemistry" between the two and off-screen stuff led to her departure.

Apparently Calleigh "looked up" to Horatio too much in the beginning to fill that position and in the last 4 years she's been so focused on her sex life she has no clue what Horatio's been doing. If she truly is his second-in-command, she should be the one calling him on his unacceptable behavior. Maybe she doesn't because on a couple of occasions her boyfriend has been a willing participant!
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I posted about this on the "Wheels Up" thread, too. The writers royally screwed up H and Cal's friendship - they were obviously close in Seasons 1-4 - and now I'm beginning to think it was very intentional. They don't WANT anyone to challenge H. Calleigh was never his peer like Megan was - H taught Cal the ropes, so naturally she looked up to him and "kept her head down," as she told Eric when he asked about H's brother in Season 1.

One of the reasons I dislike the whole E/C thing was that it really created a rift within the team, and for some reason w/Horatio. Calleigh SHOULD be the one calling him out, especially b/c she could run that lab on her own - isn't she due for a promotion?

I also would argue that Calleigh HAS called Horatio out in the past (ie: in "After the Fall" w/the police brutality charge (how ironic now, huh?) and in "Under Suspision," when she comes out and says, "Horatio, I need you to tell me the truth." Wouldn't that be refreshing to hear now, and maybe redeem Cal's character and Horatio's in the process? They've known each other the longest and she's really the one that should be holding him accountable. I agree that her "sex life" w/Eric has gotten in the way, and perhaps prevented her from talking to H, but now that that has seemed to "cool", maybe NOW is the time when she can step up and be the Calleigh we used to know - someone who cares about the whole team and has integrity. We're supposed to believe the team is a family, so if for nothing else, Calleigh should do this for her family, which includes Horatio.

Their second was getting rid of Stetler. While Horatio and Rick had a "strained" relationship, Rick kept an eye on Horatio. And we certainly could use him right now.
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Oh yea - Rick was someone I used to love to hate b/c he was always riding Horatio (and was abusive himself). But now it's horrible that no one is holding H accountable - I hate that. I think I'd be able to swallow this storyline more if he was accountable.

I do wonder this, however. Will Horatio being out of control tie in to the introduction of a possible love interest we've heard about from TPTB? Will she be a new boss (since we know that they don't care about superior/subordinant relationships), take Stetler's place or, possibly be the mental health professional that Horatio really should be seeing at this point.
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You know, I just don't trust TPTB w/romance storylines anymore - they're so freakin' bad at it. The only one I really 'bought' was the tension between H and Yelina - and where have she and Ray, Jr. gone? She is another one that should've called Horatio out on all this, and it would be believable. I really don't want another love interest for him - I just want him to get some HELP!

Bring that Horatio back. This character deserves better. The writers need to find a better way to get the character where they want him to be. The destruction of the character to accomplish their goal, again, is unacceptable
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Here, here! Horatio's dignity and integrity are at stake! I still feel this is stemming from the murder of his mother and the obviously unresolved issues he has w/that. That was an awesome storyline that was just dropped in favor of the whole Marisol debacle (which very few fans bought into), and that's a damn shame. We can try to blame his behavior on Marisol's death, but that doesn't really make sense b/c she was "abused" - she was murdered by a gang, and it could've been prevented if Marisol had agreed to have police protection.

This whole "woman abused" thing rings much more of his mother's murder (by his abusive father, whom he killed - but yea, that's not a storyline we should follow up on :rolleyes:. I remember an interview where one of the producers was asked why that storyline was dropped, and they said it was b/c it was getting "too dark" for the character - well, how is it now for Horatio? I would say pretty freakin' dark!)

Anyhow, all we can do is let CBS/TPTB know of our displeasure and hope somehow they can fix this mess. :rolleyes:
 
Like I said in the other thread,when a show allows one or more of its main characters to go off the tracks, its usually signals the downword spirial of the show and its end.
Without A Trace had Jack Malone garroting,beating and torturing suspects by the end,the welfare of the cases or his team be darned.
Lily Rush stalked and harassed the man accused of trying to kill her even after being warned by her boss that her actions were putting her collegues at risk.
Law & Order SVU has been operating the past couple of years under the mantra that everyone is guilty and thus deserves to be treated like garbage until proven to be innocent.
And now we have CSI Miami. Without Stetler around, there is no one to keep H in check.
In this latest case, where he no doubt beat the tar out of the suspect,does he think the suspect's lawyer is going to be blind and not notice that his/her client got worked over? Or that somebody facing murder charges is going to keep silent about the fact a cop beat him up?
More to the point, just because someone is a jerk, it doesn't make them a liar. H decided on his own that the guy is guilty and thus deserves a punishment. That's being a judge and jury all rolled into one.
H is slowly becoming nothing more than a bully with a badge,and I can't respect that. If nothing else, Reggie Wallace from Power Trip should be flashing in H's mind. Because he is headed down that road.
 
Ninja0980 said:
In this latest case, where he no doubt beat the tar out of the suspect,does he think the suspect's lawyer is going to be blind and not notice that his/her client got worked over? Or that somebody facing murder charges is going to keep silent about the fact a cop beat him up?
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Exactly this bit made Horatio look dumb. Why beat someone up when you know they will call the lawyer?

I an outlandish theory about why this is happening but if I said it I'd be in trouble
 
You know ....I didn´t quite belive it, when I read it in episode tread. But comming in here makes me frustrated. What is going on???

Miami - LV - NY were all originally based on the same "ground/basis" structure.

Griss - Mac - Horatio
Cath - Stella - Megan(/Yelena(sp?)/Alexx)

The original character - form/build were even a bit the same. Women who is their own right could act and be counter-weight to the male character.
In the begining with Yelina it even gave show extra credit for a beliveable strong FEMALE cop. Very nice indeed.

But they are no more. TPTB did have plenty of chances to include new strong female characters along the line. But have in general opted for male characters. And I am a fan of Frank - lines so it worked out. Now it just leaves the show in ....

For me it is very very tricky:

Any overly yougthfull female character as love interest for Horatio would not sit right with me. Marisol flashbacks. Not a fan of that storyline anyways.
Any femaly strong - willed laywers seen a couple of times before and too predictable for me.
Any female cops ??? Well I am not completely there with that one yet. It would however make sense to why they cut Rick. They allready have used that kind of coupling on a show (Vartann and Cath) so would they go there??

But the casting would be super - important. Marisol didn´t sit right with me because Horatio is as character the wise one. The male characters in generel on CSI shows are the Yodas. And to match them you need a female Yoda - Not a peduwan(sp?) LOL.

Delynn I like your Gibbs - in the seasons I get to see: He still has a boss to keep him in check no matter what he does. Horatio doesn´t seem to have anyone. And adding an active episode present over - boss at this time in showstructure?

I am however sad that show treads a great character with a super invented name like they do. Because what ever happens to the other characters the "main man" in all three shows are the savior. That is how the shows are build. IMO.
And David does a great job. There is some hard - ball like Mac and some sweet kindness of Griss.
 
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so some new spoiler pics are up and they show Horatio probably giving Memmo (the criminal gang murdered who killed his wife Marisol) a big kick in the head? and taking the guy out on a boat ride and H is holding a gun...so if he gets "Miami Justice" for this bad guy will he finally be at peace and not be going off on suspects? is that an ending for his dark days or just a new beginning?
anybody got some ideas?
 
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I don't really know what to make of the pics.
I do think its interesting to note that one of them shows Horatio with his gun next to him instead of in his hand, and he's sitting in a strangely calm sort of manner. To me, the body language of both characters doesn't scream impromptu murder. I wonder if Horatio is actually going to return Memmo to prison like a good cop would. Maybe he'll finally realize that all he's done is bloody Marisol's legacy, and that taking Memmo in as opposed to killing him is the action that'll actually make her proud.
 
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Just wanted to remind those interested in discussing future episodes to utilize the spoiler code function as not to divulge information to folks choosing to remain spoiler-free. Thanks! :)
 
Did it give anyone else a sense of foreboding to hear Jake McGrath telling Horatio, "You've lost it!" when Horatio's intention became clear?

I found it very interesting they would have a suspect say something like to Horatio, but kind of telling when you consider Horatio's actions in the last couple of years.

Here we have a total stranger recognizing that something isn't right. Doesn't say much for the team in that they apparently don't see it.

Not sure what to make of it, actually! :confused:
 
Where is the team? :wtf: That is the question of the moment, isn't it? Horatio has distanced himself so far from the team that they can't even approach him. :( He puts them in tough situations and teaches them how to get away w/police brutality (ie: w/Nat and Eric) . One has to wonder if anyone has the GUTS to stand up to Horatio. :rolleyes:

When Ajbuckly was talking about "Where is the strong female" on CSI, it really made me sad - I mean, hello - it USED to be Calleigh. :confused: I truly believe that by making her compromise her integrity on several occasions, she's lost some credibility. She used to be the person who would "look out" for Horatio (see "After the Fall," "Lost Son," "Under Suspicion," etc.) Now, they've distanced these two to the point where it would be a SHOCK to see them interacting.

Calleigh was to Horatio what Catherine was to Grissom and Stella was to Mac. Maybe it's time Calleigh reasserted herself and started giving a crap about the team and her boss. She's the only one I could see that could keep him in check, aside from Yelina, but she's MIA all of a sudden. I also think Yelina doesn't have much "pull" w/H b/c she's not a cop anymore - I really don't think he takes her seriously. She cautions him, but he doesn't listen.

With Calleigh, she's more forceful and it might be different. (See how she confronted Ryan after he lost his job in "Kill Switch" (I think) ) .

I posted this on the "Wheel's Up" ep. thread, but thought it'd be good for here too, since we're talking about Horatio's out of control ways. Hope it's not too OT, but I wanted to share a Miami video I made back in 2008 about this issue, which I saw was happening even then. It could be seen as a little "shipperish" I suppose, but even E/C fans have posted positive comments on it, and it focuses more on a friendship that broke down and why. The main reason being the violent H that we are talking about.

The basis of the video was that Cal and H had some communication problems, but after Marisol's death, Cal became concerned about H's increasing violence. So Cal confronts H. I would love to see this on-screen, but have a feeling it won't happen. However, I'm still making a case for it :)

Here's the video: Don't Speak

We all want a strong woman to confront H - well here she is, folks. Remember what H said back in season 3 to Stetler: "Never mess with Calleigh Duquesne."

As for the pictures of the upcoming episode:

So anyhow, that's my two cents for today - for what it's worth. ;)
 
miamirocks said:
Where is the team? :wtf: That is the question of the moment, isn't it? Horatio has distanced himself so far from the team that they can't even approach him. :( He puts them in tough situations and teaches them how to get away w/police brutality (ie: w/Nat and Eric) . One has to wonder if anyone has the GUTS to stand up to Horatio. :rolleyes:
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Problem with Eric is he's never shown an discomfort or doubt when he's been with Horatio at those times. He's been an active participant.

Natalia, on the other hand, looked VERY uncomfortable. It was her first exposure to Horatio acting that way and I think she was caught off-guard. It would be interesting to see her reaction if she were placed in that situation again.

miamirocks said:
When Ajbuckly was talking about "Where is the strong female" on CSI, it really made me sad - I mean, hello - it USED to be Calleigh. :confused: I truly believe that by making her compromise her integrity on several occasions, she's lost some credibility. She used to be the person who would "look out" for Horatio (see "After the Fall," "Lost Son," "Under Suspicion," etc.) Now, they've distanced these two to the point where it would be a SHOCK to see them interacting.
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"Used to be" says it all for me when it comes to Calleigh. I'm not shocked when they interact any longer. I just find it very painful to watch. The marvelous working chemistry to characters used to have is toast! It died a very painful death some time ago and, for me, there's no getting it back.

miamirocks said:
Calleigh was to Horatio what Catherine was to Grissom and Stella was to Mac. Maybe it's time Calleigh reasserted herself and started giving a crap about the team and her boss. She's the only one I could see that could keep him in check, aside from Yelina, but she's MIA all of a sudden. I also think Yelina doesn't have much "pull" w/H b/c she's not a cop anymore - I really don't think he takes her seriously. She cautions him, but he doesn't listen.

With Calleigh, she's more forceful and it might be different. (See how she confronted Ryan after he lost his job in "Kill Switch" (I think) ) .
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I wouldn't buy Calleigh doing an intervention. First of all, she HAS lost all credibility with me. She doesn't get to take the moral high ground any longer and she has no right whatsoever to judge others.

Beside that, her in your face, holier than thou type of confrontation is NOT what Horatio needs. He needs someone who is capable of empathizing and sympathizing with him. Some who understands he's hurting - not someone who going to pass judgement.

I just feel that Natalia, Ryan and /or Frank all come across as caring about Horatio. I haven't gotten a sense of Calleigh caring whether Horatio lives or dies for a long time. Her reaction to him being shot almost looked like she had to turn away fast to hide her laughter. I didn't buy her "shock" or upset for a second. She moved on immediately by reminding everyone that Horatio had a lot of enemies.

Natalia, Ryan and Frank would be confronting him out of concern and because they want to help. Calleigh would be confronting him out of anger and placing her sense of righteous indignation on him. I just feel she lost that right a long time ago.

miamirocks said:
I posted this on the "Wheel's Up" ep. thread, but thought it'd be good for here too, since we're talking about Horatio's out of control ways. Hope it's not too OT, but I wanted to share a Miami video I made back in 2008 about this issue, which I saw was happening even then. It could be seen as a little "shipperish" I suppose, but even E/C fans have posted positive comments on it, and it focuses more on a friendship that broke down and why. The main reason being the violent H that we are talking about.

The basis of the video was that Cal and H had some communication problems, but after Marisol's death, Cal became concerned about H's increasing violence. So Cal confronts H. I would love to see this on-screen, but have a feeling it won't happen. However, I'm still making a case for it :)

Here's the video: Don't Speak
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I've seen your video. It's very good and I enjoyed it a long time ago when I watched it. Despite the fact that Horatio and Calleigh's friendship is stone cold dead for me, your video does show how it could have been. :)

miamirocks said:
We all want a strong woman to confront H - well here she is, folks. Remember what H said back in season 3 to Stetler: "Never mess with Calleigh Duquesne."
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I wish I could feel like you do about their relationship. I just can't. Calleigh is the LAST person I want to address the issue with Horatio. She would simply be judging and scolding him. She wouldn't be helpful to him.

I want Natalia to be the one. She is much more compassionate and understanding. She and Horatio have a good, warm relationship and she would confront the issue with Horatio's best interest in mind. She wouldn't make it about herself. Calleigh comes across and cold and selfish to me. Natalia is the exact opposite.

I hope one of us get what we're looking for. Someone needs to help Horatio ... soon! :(
 
Thanks for your post Delynn - I definitely understand where you're coming from. I have been totally frustrated w/the way the writers have destroyed the H/Cal dynamic - for me, I just can't get over Seasons 1-4, and maybe I should just move on, but I can't believe that the friendship we saw there is just gone. :confused:

We both agree something needs to be done about Horatio, and maybe there can be a compromise. :)

As for Natalia - yes, I could see her confronting Horatio, and I think she'd do a good job, but I don't know if she could pull it off alone. She certainly has a compassion and charm about her. :thumbsup: However, she is very much Horatio's subordinate, and I would rather see maybe her AND Ryan going to H rather than just Nat - I just wouldn't buy H listening to Nat by herself. She's certainly had some struggles and can relate to H, but w/all her own problems in the lab (her issues w/Nick, her hearing issue last year, her shooting at H and Ryan when she was kidnapped and compromised,etc.) it may be too hard for her to confront him.

Maybe we can get some "girl power," and Nat can go to Calleigh and be like "What the @$#@ is up w/Horatio?" :wtf: It would make sense, since Cal is still second in command (though many think she shouldn't be, but that's another matter). And I think Cal and Nat have a great chemistry and could pull off a scene like that. :bolian:

I know you really hate Calleigh right now, but I think it's b/c of the way she's been written - how can she show care/concern for Horatio if they don't give them any scenes together? :confused:

As for her being "cold," I know Horatio fans don't like to hear this, but Horatio really was the first one who pulled away from Calleigh - he was nowhere to be found when she had all those traumatic incidents in Season 6 (He didn't even help her out by talking to Rick on her behalf or talk to her personally to see what was going on w/her :wtf:). As far as I saw, it was H who distanced himself from the whole team, especially Calleigh (probably to accomodate another storyline :shifty:).

Looking at it that way, I can see why Calleigh would withdraw from him. However, I was moved by her initial response in the Season 7 premier (she was trying to do what H would've wanted her to do - keep the team together, on task and on the case. Look at how she acted when Speed died - she was very "cold," until the locker room scene - who knows how she was when she got back to the lab or was alone in the hummer...just sayin ;) )

Anyhow, I'm not completely disagreeing with you - I'm just a big Calleigh fan who refuses to give up on her. I still believe deep down there's that soft southern heart that can be revived, and I think compassionately addressing this issue w/Horatio would bring her a long way. It probably wouldnt' be the way she spoke to Ryan in Season 5 (while she still had most of her credibility), but it would be nice to see a forceful but compassionate response to H's troubles. She's capable of it (see Season 3's "After the Fall" - "Why don't you just let me take a look at the evidence" - that's the Calleigh I know and love.)

And lastly, I'm glad you liked the video :), despite how you feel about where the show and character of Calleigh has gone. I just see those episodes from so many years ago and find it hard to believe that Cal will continue to stand on the sidelines. (Obviously b/c of EP's pregnancy she hasn't been very involved, but I'm hoping that will change.)

I understand you may not feel that way, but like you said, hopefully we will get SOMETHING b/c the main issue here is Horatio.
 
I've always felt Natalya would be a good choice to bring Horatio out of his darkness but another candidate entered my mind and that is Kyle. Horatio helped him get away from a messed up life and to a more positive one. Could Kyle return the favour?
 
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