Do you believe in God?

[shazza_018]

Is it possible to start believing in God because of religious (spiritual) experiences?

What do you understand under religious/spiritual experience? (maybe a small example?)

I mean more spirtual than religious, I was trying to stir away from religion but I worded the question wrong ...Erm near death experiences changing your perception of life....Feeling the sense of a "higher power" or "being"....like when you see the beauty of this world (now I know your going start to scientific debate to argue against but for this question can you not please ) and how amazing it and feeling that something more "powerful" and "better" than us (humans) must have created this world....

What comes up in my mind is near death experiences. I've read cases in which people who weren't religious at all, suddenly started to believe in God. They all claim to have seen a bright, white and warm light and believe have have seen a preview of heaven.
Well, let me burst your bubbles, because the white light is nothing more than a chemical reaction in your brain. People just interprete it that way because of how they were raised and personal experiences and memories.

Again I agree with this but for a moment can we stay away from the scientific arguement(!)

Adorable_Crazy, I already like you. Be prepared to answer tons of questions.

Steph, I suggest you run like the wind :guffaw:

Why is it that I'm so fascinated with religious people? :lol:

Because like I said before YOU ARE EVIL! :guffaw: (kidding)

I'll comment on Kant tomorrow. I never liked the guy's theories, and I'll tell you exactly why. Tomorrow.

I'm gonna surprise you and say that I don't like his theories either... they seem too duty based and too absolute....I think even as a religious person you need a little bit of flexiablity but Kant and Natural Law are the only two religion based ethical theories that *I* have studied and I don't agree in parts with either....There is Situation Ethics based on the Christianity and love, but let not go into that!

"- God must exist to ensure that all can achieve that which they morally require to pursue - the greatest happiness. Not all virtuous acts would lead to happiness hence the necessity for the possibility of a Heaven with God in which all is good and happy"

i do not agree with this at all. all we have is this life so i am going to make the best of it. if people live their life in anticipation of heaven as a reward, doesnt that make everything they do an ultimate selfish act? you may be genuine, but in the end you are expecting some kind of reward that may or may not exist. i just try to be a descent person, and i expect to be treated the same.

I actually agree with you on this I've never liked Kants theories and this one doesn't seem to make much sense...

although, the promise of a beer volcano and stripper factory in pastafarian heaven is quite tempting... :guffaw:

HAHA - well atleast you find it tempting! :guffaw:

I have a big problem with people who use religion as a means to get away with doing things otherwise wouldn't be accepted by twisting words etc. We have to face the fact that the religious words are ambiguous and it's up to the individual to decipher it for him/herself. It's when you got those few people who decided the words can be twisted to justify the obvious WRONG they're doing that I really get frustrated.

As for religion vs. science, well that argument is always going to be there too. In 20 years time, I doubt the debate would have gone anywhere

I agree with this and couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Jacquie]

"- God must exist to ensure that all can achieve that which they morally require to pursue - the greatest happiness. Not all virtuous acts would lead to happiness hence the necessity for the possibility of a Heaven with God in which all is good and happy"

i do not agree with this at all. all we have is this life so i am going to make the best of it. if people live their life in anticipation of heaven as a reward, doesnt that make everything they do an ultimate selfish act? you may be genuine, but in the end you are expecting some kind of reward that may or may not exist. i just try to be a descent person, and i expect to be treated the same. although, the promise of a beer volcano and stripper factory in pastafarian heaven is quite tempting... :guffaw:

I agree with you on this allmaple. Being a decent person and living life to the best of your abilities should be enough. If what I do in this life lets me go to heaven then great but I'm not going to change the way I do things just to please God. I'm doing them to please me and in most cases my family I think we've all done things that don't please our family

If you take the view that shazza has then why do Catholics who led a live according to God's wishes end up in purgatory when they die. Why don't they go straight to heaven . Why the wait to see if they can go to heaven. This was the issue that bothered my former employee when her grandmother died.

allmaple don't forget the all important item in your pastafarian heaven. Plenty of Nick to drool over also:guffaw:

 

[Elsie]

I mean more spirtual than religious, I was trying to stir away from religion but I worded the question wrong ...Erm near death experiences changing your perception of life....Feeling the sense of a "higher power" or "being"....like when you see the beauty of this world (now I know your going start to scientific debate to argue against but for this question can you not please ) and how amazing it and feeling that somethig more "powerful" and "better" than us (humans) must have created this world....

Of course people can have a spiritual or religious experience that brings them to God. At least, many people that I know have claimed just that, and I truly believe that they believe it to be the truth. They were doing something or experiencing something and God spoke to them, or they sensed a higher power at work and at that time they realised that God existed and that it is the truth. I have to admire their conviction. It happens all the time, and usually such individual experiences can't really be explained away by science as it is simply someone's feeling or interpretation of a situation. It's not usually as cliche as a near-death experience, although I'm sure that there are people who come to religion because of such things.

Have I ever sensed a higher power or seen such beauty or had such experiences that lead me to believe that there must be something more to this? Sure, I believe that I have. Do I think that God has ever spoken to me? Yes I do.

 

[shazza_018]

I agree with you on this allmaple. Being a decent person and living life to the best of your abilities should be enough. If what I do in this life lets me go to heaven then great but I'm not going to change the way I do things just to please God. I'm doing them to please me and in most cases my family I think we've all done things that don't please our family

If you take the view that shazza has then why do Catholics who led a live according to God's wishes end up in purgatory when they die. Why don't they go straight to heaven . Why the wait to see if they can go to heaven. This was the issue that bothered my former employee when her grandmother died.

Can I just say again what I quoted was the view of a philsopher and not MY own I did clearly state that I didn't not agree with this view I just wanted to bring it into the discussion and see what People say about it and I UNDERSTAND completely why you guy disagree with it cause I disagree with it in parts too.... and please you guy can call me Soph!

Of course people can have a spiritual or religious experience that brings them to God. At least, many people that I know have claimed just that, and I truly believe that they believe it to be the truth. They were doing something or experiencing something and God spoke to them, or they sensed a higher power at work and at that time they realised that God existed and that it is the truth. I have to admire their conviction. It happens all the time, and usually such individual experiences can't really be explained away by science as it is simply someone's feeling or interpretation of a situation. It's not usually as cliche as a near-death experience, although I'm sure that there are people who come to religion because of such things.

Yep, I agree and that is exactly the type of answer I wanted!

 

[Jacquie]

Sorry Soph I've only been reading bits and pieces and missed that you were quoting some one else. None the less this is an interesting topic that I find very interesting. It also goes to show you that we all respect each others beliefs and can have a civilized conversation even if it is only on a message board and a very well run message board might I add

And have I every had an experience that has led me to a strong believing in God. And the reason I say stronger is because I already believe in God. I don't know. If I've had one I don't recall. I can see God's hands in the beauty of the world ever day. I live in a beautiful country and I've seen many other countries that are beautiful. I just hope that man doesn't destroy to much of it before others get the chance to see it.

 

[allmaple]

Again I agree with this but for a moment can we stay away from the scientific arguement(!)

but what about when there is a natural scientific explanation for what people attribute to the supernatural? thats like asking me to ignore all the wires and electrical equipment that set off the 'ghost detectors' on those ghost hunting shows

allmaple don't forget the all important item in your pastafarian heaven. Plenty of Nick to drool over also:guffaw:

hes one of the strippers and even if youre not a pastafarian you can come over to our beer volcano anytime to party. which is yet another reason why pastafarian is the greatest and most tolerant religion there is.

As for religion vs. science, well that argument is always going to be there too. In 20 years time, I doubt the debate would have gone anywhere

but why is there a debate anyway? neither has anything to do with the other.

man this multi quote thing is handy anyways... heres what i dont understand, humans have existed for about 200 000 years, and i believe any indication of religion is less than 20 000 years old (this number may be off, i cant remember exactly!) so what was going on for the other 180 000 years? why did H.neaderthalensis, H.erectus, H.ergastor ect. not show any indication of religion? weve created this concept and over generations changed it to what we needed it to be. my feeling is that any concept of god that exist today, is just as valid as the gods no one believes in any more and only exist in 'myth'. who decided which gods were valid and which ones arent anyway?

 

[Gaelen]

but why is there a debate anyway? neither has anything to do with the other.

I think it's because of the way science sometimes clashes with religion, e.g, Darwin's theory of evolution doesn't fit in with many religious views. I can't comment on other religions because I don't know them very well, but I know in Islam, Adam was the first creature on earth that was given consciousness, or something like that, and the theory of evolution doesn't support that.

I've tried asking my parents and they just gave me blank looks

 

[Showtime]

As for religion vs. science, well that argument is always going to be there too. In 20 years time, I doubt the debate would have gone anywhere

but why is there a debate anyway? neither has anything to do with the other.

Science and religion have everything to do with each other. Religion was originally used in lieu of science (and as a bargaining tool). If someone asked a question, it was easy to respond with a "because God made it so", meaning less questions and more compliant serfs, or slaves, or whatever.

This goes back to the Romans and the Egyptians, too. They didn't have the technology to explain the sun, so they explained it with a God or Goddess.

Even TODAY people who don't understand an aspect of it turn to religion to explain it. Muslim societies often don't like Gays, because their god condemns it (likewise with many Catholics and more literal Christians).

Plato called it Mythos vs. Logos. Both were equally respectable ways to come to the same conclusion, one was just more rational and one was more spiritual. Today, religion has been removed from science because science often disproves elements of a religion.

 

[shazza_018]

I think it's because of the way science sometimes clashes with religion, e.g, Darwin's theory of evolution doesn't fit in with many religious views. I can't comment on other religions because I don't know them very well, but I know in Islam, Adam was the first creature on earth that was given consciousness, or something like that, and the theory of evolution doesn't support that.

I've tried asking my parents and they just gave me blank looks

Exactly and I agree with what you said. I've discussed this with my dad but it's been so long since I have so I can't remember exactly what he said but I know if I asked my mum she'd give me blank look My dad would have more of an actual answer to the question....maybe I'll discuss with him again some time.

Showtime - Well yeah I agree but some religious beliefs do have a moral reason behind them..and are not just "because *insert god name here* told us to"...

 

[carolina]

weve created this concept and over generations changed it to what we needed it to be. my feeling is that any concept of god that exist today, is just as valid as the gods no one believes in any more and only exist in 'myth'. who decided which gods were valid and which ones arent anyway?

religions evolve as everything in the world.

Well yeah I agree but some religious beliefs do have a moral reason behind them..and are not just "because *insert god name here* told us to"...

that could have been done to ensure the obeying to such morals. it was moral, then it became a law and then Gods word. the bigger the autorithy behind the words the more reasonable the expectation for following it

as for the science vs. religion I think that were the science (knowledge) ends the faith begins. of course the boundaries are being pushed but even knowledge isnt inalterable

 

[allmaple]

I think it's because of the way science sometimes clashes with religion, e.g, Darwin's theory of evolution doesn't fit in with many religious views.

but the science stands for itself and is valid regardless of what some holy text might say. this is why there have been massive lawsuits in the states when school boards tried to put intelligent design in science classrooms. its just repackaged creationism and therefor has no place in a science class.

Science and religion have everything to do with each other. Religion was originally used in lieu of science (and as a bargaining tool).

i still fail to see how they have anything to do with each other. not understanding science and using god as an explanation instead does not make it valid. apollo doesnt pull the sun across the sky and thunder isnt made by angels bowling. if people try to fill in the gaps of scientific knowledge by attributing it to god, the only thing they are going to accomplish is explaining god away. maybe not in a years time, or a decades time, but eventually there could be a natural explanation for everything we are unsure of now. like i said before, science stands for itself. it needs no concept of god to be valid.

religions evolve as everything in the world.

which was exactly my point. if people have changed how many gods there are, what the gods do, how we are supposed to worship the gods etc. so many times over the centuries why should i believe any of it is true?

 

[Gaelen]

but the science stands for itself and is valid regardless of what some holy text might say.

Science is only valid as long as the current theories run uncontested. Think the many breakthroughs in scientific history, many years ago, what they knew back then, were taken to be true, only to be disproved, again, and then again, and again. Science is always evolving, we don't know anything, only what we've managed to figure out so far.

Some things science can't explain, religion can (albeit it's always vague). Some people take refuge in that, especially when they're going through a rough patch, it's comforting to know that there is a higher being watching down on you. To one that doesn't believe in religion, I admit it may sound rediculous.

I was raised religiously, but even though I've been schooled with many different thoughts, there will always be that religious voice at the back of my head. I doubt everyone has it, but for me, it's there (and a tad bit annoying at times).

which was exactly my point. if people have changed how many gods there are, what the gods do, how we are supposed to worship the gods etc. so many times over the centuries why should i believe any of it is true?

Not all religions are like that. Some religions are still being practiced in the same manner it was hundreds of years ago.

 

[miss_blue]

Is it possible to start believing in God because of religious (spiritual) experiences?

No, not for me at least. I believe that people who experience that strong moments (e.g God spoke to me last night, Jesus wants me to do that, i have seen Virgin Mary etc) are schizophrenics. No offense to anyone here, but that is just my opinion. (It also goes with the alien abductions - which is another hot subject that goes hand in hand with religion, but I won't stir the waters )

Some religions are still being practiced in the same manner it was hundreds of years ago.

Amen! (to be in tone with the thread). Islam, Buddhism haven't changed along the centuries.

I have met a few characters in my life that are let's just say...not so good with the mental sanity. There was this guy in my hometown who has changed religions I think 6 times. And he walking around the street and the park and annoyed people. Once he engaged in a conversation, the poor person who was stalked by the man could consider herself lucky if it took only 1 hour. I had a long encounter with the guy. And I have reached some hot points that the man couldn't answer.

1. Why is Christian-Orthodoxism the one and true religion?
2. How can he justify the peace that the Church talks about, when in the past the Church killed so many?
3. Where in the Bible it says that smoking is a sin and that the gay will burn in hell?

Some things science can't explain, religion can (albeit it's always vague). Some people take refuge in that, especially when they're going through a rough patch, it's comforting to know that there is a higher being watching down on you. To one that doesn't believe in religion, I admit it may sound rediculous.

I believe only in facts. On evidence and the science to prove the theories. There are so many unanswered by the modern science that are waiting for the humanity to reach the time and the knowledge to be fully explained. I'll take for example the most famous one, the Big Bang theory. It's not completed, it has major holes in it, but I will not accept to fill in with religion the missing parts. It's like taking the easy way out, and giving up on researching and investigating.

 

[Showtime]

3. Where in the Bible it says that smoking is a sin and that the gay will burn in hell?

I think it's pretty clear. The Bible wouldn't condemn someone to death and then let them into heaven.

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable (Leviticus 18:22, NIV)
​

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Leviticus 20:13, NIV)
​

Nowhere does it say that smoking is a sin, but you're supposed to worship the body that God gave you and now that smoking has proven detrimental effects, some religious zealots might view it as a form of suicide? I'm not sure.

I believe only in facts. On evidence and the science to prove the theories. There are so many unanswered by the modern science that are waiting for the humanity to reach the time and the knowledge to be fully explained. I'll take for example the most famous one, the Big Bang theory. It's not completed, it has major holes in it, but I will not accept to fill in with religion the missing parts. It's like taking the easy way out, and giving up on researching and investigating.

Religion isn't used as a way to fill in the missing gaps, it's an entirely different doctrine that CAN fit in with current theories. There are holes, and who's to say that their theory isn't right?

I'm not religious, in fact I'm far from it, but this thread is getting ridiculous with the misrepresentation of the religious. So far there haven't been any Catholics in here saying that as long as there's no proof as to what caused the Big Bang (only speculation, which it is), then they'll believe it was by God's hand and it's the "easy way out" to just accept whatever the scientists shove down our throats.

There's some theist-phobia going on in here and I'm sick of it. Being progressive isn't shooting down other people's beliefs.

 

[Jacquie]

showtime I was enjoying reading other people's comment until you came along. I think and I believe that everyone was being respectful to each other's beliefs. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do and I sincerely hope that what you have said will not stop the other people from saying what their beliefs are. I do hope that we can continue to have a discussion here that is in keeping with the way talk.csi is run.