Did Danny Cheat? *416 Spoilers*

[carolina]

but how long before anything Danny does or doesnt is not explained by Rubens death? it was a tragedy and I understand the grieveing especially given the guilt trip he is on but I think that is the problem here.

everything he does is grief/guilt ridden and there is no sing (except that smile he gave Lindsay in PwM) that he attempts to work it out. that is what makes his actions so unphantomable and hard to forgive in my eyes

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

but how long before anything Danny does or doesnt is not explained by Rubens death? it was a tragedy and I understand the grieveing especially given the guilt trip he is on but I think that is the problem here.

everything he does is grief/guilt ridden and there is no sing (except that smile he gave Lindsay in PwM) that he attempts to work it out. that is what makes his actions so unphantomable and hard to forgive in my eyes

This isn't all aimed at you specifically.

Like Faylin said in another thread, when the first post strike episode aired it became canon that it had been six weeks since the events of "Down the Rabbit Hole." That means everything from "Boo" through "DOA for a Day" happened in six weeks. Going on that time line Ruben's death is very recent. Add to that the fact that Danny feels responsible for Ruben's death and the fact that he's "still" grieving makes perfect sense. He's never going to be "over" Ruben's death, and guilt for something like that takes a long time to reconcile within onesself.

Also, he is trying to work out his grief. Is he doing it in a completely constructive way? No. No one is saying Danny is Mr. Perfect. In fact some of the people who absolutely love Danny have repeatedly said he's totally screwed up. That's why we like him. He's not always, or even usually, going to do the right thing; but usually his intentions are good even though his judgement isn't. It sounds to me like you're saying you think the only way he can work out his grief is if he turns to Lindsay. This situation isn't about Lindsay or Danny and Lindsay, it's about Danny; and because Rikki is Ruben's mother and Danny feels responsible for her child dying, it's about Danny and Rikki to large extent.

I find it disturbing that there are people who are so willing to dismiss the death of a child and the grieving mother just so Danny and Lindsay can be all happy and lovey dovey. It's realy telling, to me anyway, that some of the same people who have complained about the lack of continuity with Danny and Lindsay and showing their relationship are complaining because there is continuity with the Ruben storyline and want it swept under the rug as if it never happened. To me this storyline has had amazing continuity, especially for CSI: NY, and a very intriguing look into how one of the team copes with a personal tragedy and how it effects his relationship with others on the team.

Also, like Kimmychu said in another thread, "Fanon is NOT canon." If something wasn't shown in an episode it didn't happen. People are turning what they want to have happened into something that did happen. Lindsay has not been there for Danny. She went to the morgue and said his name as he walked out. Then she told Mac she wasn't "good at this sort of thing." That's all she's done, unless in a future episode they show flashbacks of or talk about her repeated attempts to be there and Danny pushing her away. Danny and Lindsay being in an exclusive relationship is not canon. Both Anna and Carmine have said, post writers strike, they had no idea if Danny and Lindsay were together at all. In S3 Carmine said that Danny went to Montana as a friend, and after that nothing happened between Danny and Lindsay until "Snow Day." If people want to write fanfics about how Danny flew across the country because he loved Lindsay and that he and Lindsay have been dating since SOOH, "made love" in SD and are in a serious relationship, that's great. That's what fanfiction is for. But it is not canon so using it as an arguement for how someone feels about anything that's happening on the show makes no sense.

 

[stormymac]

Both Anna and Carmine have said, post writers strike, they had no idea if Danny and Lindsay were together at all. In S3 Carmine said that Danny went to Montana as a friend, and after that nothing happened between Danny and Lindsay until "Snow Day." If people want to write fanfics about how Danny flew across the country because he loved Lindsay and that he and Lindsay have been dating since SOOH, "made love" in SD and are in a serious relationship, that's great. That's what fanfiction is for. But it is not canon so using it as an arguement for how someone feels about anything that's happening on the show makes no sense.

I agree with everything you said PA, especially this. People are saying that they believe that Danny and Lindsay are in a serious relationship, but if the actors portraying them don't know where they stand with each other how can anyone else know? Speaking of what is shown on the screen, A lot of people have been cheering Lindsay for how she treated Danny in this episode. People need to realize that the unprofessional snit she had in the corridor, and it was unprofessional, and everything after seems to be a combination of the forgotten birthday, not wanting to go to lunch and, mostly, the not turning to her with his grief. While we know about Rikki, she doesn't so she is upset, not about him cheating, but that she is being left out or ignored. Once again it is about herself and how it effects her and not Danny.

 

[carolina]

when the first post strike episode aired it became canon that it had been six weeks since the events of "Down the Rabbit Hole." That means everything from "Boo" through "DOA for a Day" happened in six weeks

can you post some link or a quote or anything because to be honest I have no idea about the timeline

I would never dismiss the death of a child. and since my English isnt that good and Im not watching the disaster again I might have missed something that was about the time it takes place. if they only written about it somewhere and it was not stated clearly in any of the episodes then we simply dont know how long since Ruben died

continuity is nice but my question is: doesnt Rikki has anyone else to turn to? because I can imagine a lot of people she could turn to but the hot neighbour she ocassionally flirted with doesnt even make the list.

and for the record, I would be having a hard time believing it if Lindsay would take Danny back. because if it was only month after Rubens death then she gave him space and her speech wasnt too little and too late but just a reaction to him spirraling somewhere were she could not reach him anymore. because after all that happened he gave up on them - whatever them was.

Im sorry but anyway I turn it the feeling stays the same. the person in that episode is NOT the Danny Messer I learned to love. and I dont want to know this person. if he packed his bags tommorow and left for Antarctica I wouldnt bat an eyelash

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

when the first post strike episode aired it became canon that it had been six weeks since the events of "Down the Rabbit Hole." That means everything from "Boo" through "DOA for a Day" happened in six weeks

can you post some link or a quote or anything because to be honest I have no idea about the timeline

Here's a link to a YouTube video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9069154007653227061&q=csi%3A+ny+%22DOA+for+a+Day%22&total=10&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5&hl=en

and for the record, I would be having a hard time believing it if Lindsay would take Danny back. because if it was only month after Rubens death then she gave him space and her speech wasnt too little and too late but just a reaction to him spirraling somewhere were she could not reach him anymore. because after all that happened he gave up on them - whatever them was.

I see your point about it not being too little, too late; but Lindsay still made the situation about her and not about Danny and his grief. To me that is selfish and inappropriate, especially considering how he let her deal with her own trauma in her own time and on her own terms. It hasn't been clarified yet if there was a "them." If Danny didn't think there was a "them" how could he "give up on them?"

 

[Top41]

I find it disturbing that there are people who are so willing to dismiss the death of a child and the grieving mother just so Danny and Lindsay can be all happy and lovey dovey. It's realy telling, to me anyway, that some of the same people who have complained about the lack of continuity with Danny and Lindsay and showing their relationship are complaining because there is continuity with the Ruben storyline and want it swept under the rug as if it never happened. To me this storyline has had amazing continuity, especially for CSI: NY, and a very intriguing look into how one of the team copes with a personal tragedy and how it effects his relationship with others on the team.

And that's what bothers me more than anything else. I've seen numerous complaints around that Danny should get over Ruben's death and that he reacted less strongly to his own brother's beating. That's a load of crap. Danny broke down crying in front of his boss after Louie got beat up, and while I agree we should have seen little hints beyond that episode, it was followed up by Aiden's death and Flack getting hurt in a bombing, so there was plenty for Danny to get upset about. We've also heard from both Carmine and Peter Lenkov that Louie is alive.

Ruben isn't. He's dead, and he died on Danny's watch. No matter what Danny does, he can't change that, and knowing that can drive someone to do crazy things. Seriously, put yourself in Danny's shoes for once (and not in Lindsay's--I see so many people trying to relate to her, but never him). A kid is dead and he believes it's his fault. In the grand scope of things, that's huge.

And the woman who is supposedly his girlfriend (at least in her eyes) hasn't been there for him. We saw her half-heartedly try to approach him once and when he walked away she just let him go so that she could commiserate with Mac about "not being good at this kind of thing." When Danny went MIA, she passed it off on Danny's real best friend, Flack, who as we all saw, went above and beyond to make sure Danny was safe and wasn't doing something to hurt himself or his career.

We saw Angell asking about Ruben. We've seen Mac listening to Danny. But not Lindsay, not once. And if you don't think that's significant, well, I don't know what to say. I only go by what's on screen.

 

[carolina]

I said whatever them was - friends, friends with benefits, lovers, couple

I dont really understand how could she make it about him? she said she tought he wanted space and that she was there if he wanted someone to lean on. and since he obviously didnt she was letting go. she can hardly read his mind, she is not Matt Parker after all.

and he asked her what was wrong with her after all. so it was kinda implied that she would talk about herself. or did I miss something again?

And the woman who is supposedly his girlfriend (at least in her eyes) hasn't been there for him. We saw her half-heartedly try to approach him once and when he walked away she just let him go so that she could commiserate with Mac about "not being good at this kind of thing." When Danny went MIA, she passed it off on Danny's real best friend, Flack, who as we all saw, went above and beyond to make sure Danny was safe and wasn't doing something to hurt himself or his career.

it was her who was covering for him. she could have been hardly at 2 places at once. and she helped Flack find him. she was the one who called him in first place

I just dont understand Dannys behaviour, no matter what shoes I put on. on the other hand I understand Lindsay. it may come as insensitive towards Danny but I ran out of compassion for him last week

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

I said whatever them was - friends, friends with benefits, lovers, couple

I dont really understand how could she make it about him? she said she tought he wanted space and that she was there if he wanted someone to lean on. and since he obviously didnt she was letting go. she can hardly read his mind, she is not Matt Parker after all.

and he asked her what was wrong with her after all. so it was kinda implied that she would talk about herself. or did I miss something again?

If they are just friends I don't see how him wanting to grieve for Ruben in his own way and own time would be "giving up on them." Hell, even if they were married I wouldn't see wanting to grieve for Ruben in his own way and own time as him "giving up on them."

Yes, he did ask what was wrong with her - because she was acting like a pissed off child at their work place.

She could make it about him by actually supporting him. Here's what she did. She said she understands what he's going through because her friends were murdered - which is nothing like what Danny is going through, the only commonality is that people died from a senseless act. Then she says asking him to lunch was her big attempt to be there as a "shoulder" for him. Then she moved on to acting pissed because he didn't want to go to lunch and couldn't read her mind and know she was asking in an attempt to comfort him, and because he doesn't want to/isn't ready to turn to her for comfort. Then to top it all off she turns to being hurt and says she's mad at herself for falling in love with him and she needs to "learn to let that go." Not only is that all about her, she ends up being passive agressive and trying to make Danny feel guilty for not grieving the way she wants him to grieve and for not considering her feelings in his time of grief.

To make it about him and his grief she shouldn't have acted like a pissed off child in front of their co-workers. When she talked to him in their office she could have said something about how she asked him to lunch because she thought he could use a shoulder to lean on. She could've said that she understands that he's hurting and that he has to deal with that in his own way, but that she is there for him when/if he needs her. And all she had to do to come up with that was remember back to how he treated her when she was grieving and pushing him away. That shouldn't be too much to ask, but for Lindsay it obviously is.

 

[cSiNyFrEaK30]

I said whatever them was - friends, friends with benefits, lovers, couple

I dont really understand how could she make it about him? she said she tought he wanted space and that she was there if he wanted someone to lean on. and since he obviously didnt she was letting go. she can hardly read his mind, she is not Matt Parker after all.

At that point, the only thing she had done for him was "leave him alone" about it. Her main argument after that was that he didn't go to her to vent his feelings. She says that he's going through it alone, which i don't agree with because we've seen him talk to Flack, Mac, and even Angell about it. I took the scene as her being pissed that she wasn't his main person to lean on, even though she made no attempt to console him after Ruben's death (like people have said, if it wasn't in an episode or flashback, it didn't happen canonly).

And the woman who is supposedly his girlfriend (at least in her eyes) hasn't been there for him. We saw her half-heartedly try to approach him once and when he walked away she just let him go so that she could commiserate with Mac about "not being good at this kind of thing." When Danny went MIA, she passed it off on Danny's real best friend, Flack, who as we all saw, went above and beyond to make sure Danny was safe and wasn't doing something to hurt himself or his career.

it was her who was covering for him. she could have been hardly at 2 places at once. and she helped Flack find him. she was the one who called him in first place

I do agree with you on that-there wasn't much she could do after she covered for him because she couldn't be in two places at once. But we see no evidence of her checking up and seeing how Flack is doing finding him after he brings the funeral card for Ruben to the lab. At that point, at least to me, she figured Flack would handle it, and she didn't need to be involved.

I just dont understand Dannys behaviour, no matter what shoes I put on. on the other hand I understand Lindsay. it may come as insensitive towards Danny but I ran out of compassion for him last week

Well, I'm opposite on that one. I really don't think there was ever really a relationship between the two of them, except one night of passion (snow day) some "flirty" moments, and references to having had lunch together. In my eyes, i see this as being a casual one night stand that Danny never really planned on following through. They work at the same place, which makes it impossible for them not to run into each other, and after that episode I only ever seen Lindsay "coming on" to Danny--the condom spray, the grabbing of his love handles in the one ep, and praising him about rescuing Hawkes--all of which Danny doesn't really respond to at all. This makes me think that she interpreted the one night stand as a relationship, and he thought of it as a one night stand only between friends. Following this, I don't think what he was doing with Rikki was cheating. I think he could have found a better way to comfort her through that short of sleeping with her, definately. But there was really no relationship for him to be breaking with Lindsay, so i don't see a problem with it.

If we had tangible evidence that there was a mutual relationship going on between the two of them (not just Lindsay making moves on Danny, but him actually responding and showing evidence that he believes they are in a relationship), then I'd agree with being furious with Danny, and he would definately loose my favor, whether or not i agreed with his relationship with Lindsay. However, since all we have is guesses as to whether they were together, I don't see his sleeping with Rikki as cheating, only trying to comfort someone he feels extremely guilty towards. Its in his character to want to comfort and help people he cares about, and Rikki would be high on the list because he believes that its his fault that her son is dead. For me, him offering her comfort is in character for him, even if I dont agree with the particular way he did so.

 

[Faylinn]

I do agree with you on that-there wasn't much she could do after she covered for him because she couldn't be in two places at once. But we see no evidence of her checking up and seeing how Flack is doing finding him after he brings the funeral card for Ruben to the lab. At that point, at least to me, she figured Flack would handle it, and she didn't need to be involved.

There was a scene in the spoilers at the end of the episode where Danny is in his apartment, and when someone shows up at the door, he seems disappointed to see that it's Lindsay because he was clearly expecting 'someone else'. He doesn't let Lindsay in and basically says 'we'll talk tomorrow' and she leaves. So, looking back, we can assume that Danny was hoping Rikki would be the one at the door, and Danny was pushing Lindsay away.

However, that never made the episode. It was cut at some point, so it isn't 'canon'. People were smug about it being gone back then--I'll bet they're singing a different tune now.

Anyway, interesting conversation, guys! If nothing else, it makes for good discussion.

Another thing that annoyed me about "Right Next Door" was that after Lindsay tells Danny she's tried to be there for him and he didn't come to her--then she seemed to be ignoring/avoiding him or not wanting to talk. Ok, so now that he's aware that he's hurt you and that you wanted to talk to him, you're not going to talk to him?...Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Faylinn said:
Another thing that annoyed me about "Right Next Door" was that after Lindsay tells Danny she's tried to be there for him and he didn't come to her--then she seemed to be ignoring/avoiding him or not wanting to talk. Ok, so now that he's aware that he's hurt you and that you wanted to talk to him, you're not going to talk to him?...Yeah, that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense. If you have the mentality and emotional response of a 10 year old, which is how old Lindsay acted the whole time they were at work together.

 

[Top41]

I said whatever them was - friends, friends with benefits, lovers, couple

I dont really understand how could she make it about him? she said she tought he wanted space and that she was there if he wanted someone to lean on. and since he obviously didnt she was letting go. she can hardly read his mind, she is not Matt Parker after all.

Yeah, but he isn't either, and up until 416 she never said she was there for him if he needed to talk.

and he asked her what was wrong with her after all. so it was kinda implied that she would talk about herself. or did I miss something again?

Only after she'd acted unprofessional in front of Hawkes and shrugged off his attempt to talk.

it was her who was covering for him. she could have been hardly at 2 places at once. and she helped Flack find him. she was the one who called him in first place

True, and it was good of her to send Flack after him. But it also implied she was turning to someone close to Danny than herself--which she was. Her eye roll after she covered for Danny also took away somewhat from the charitable nature of the act...she could have bit her lip to express concern, but instead all we saw was her irritation.

I just dont understand Dannys behaviour, no matter what shoes I put on. on the other hand I understand Lindsay. it may come as insensitive towards Danny but I ran out of compassion for him last week

Fair enough, but I think it's equally fair for people to sympathize with Danny and not Lindsay.

She could make it about him by actually supporting him. Here's what she did. She said she understands what he's going through because her friends were murdered - which is nothing like what Danny is going through, the only commonality is that people died from a senseless act. Then she says asking him to lunch was her big attempt to be there as a "shoulder" for him. Then she moved on to acting pissed because he didn't want to go to lunch and couldn't read her mind and know she was asking in an attempt to comfort him, and because he doesn't want to/isn't ready to turn to her for comfort. Then to top it all off she turns to being hurt and says she's mad at herself for falling in love with him and she needs to "learn to let that go." Not only is that all about her, she ends up being passive agressive and trying to make Danny feel guilty for not grieving the way she wants him to grieve and for not considering her feelings in his time of grief.

Ugh, agreed completely. The whole speech was so manipulative--he wasn't showing her enough attention, he was shutting her out, he wasn't confiding in her. Isn't it up to him how he handles his own grief? And the fact that he brought up coffee in the first place shows he wasn't totally giving her the cold shoulder. It's just she wasn't his number one priority anymore...and as we can see, Lindsay can't deal with that.

To make it about him and his grief she shouldn't have acted like a pissed off child in front of their co-workers. When she talked to him in their office she could have said something about how she asked him to lunch because she thought he could use a shoulder to lean on. She could've said that she understands that he's hurting and that he has to deal with that in his own way, but that she is there for him when/if he needs her. And all she had to do to come up with that was remember back to how he treated her when she was grieving and pushing him away. That shouldn't be too much to ask, but for Lindsay it obviously is.

Amen, and that's why I find it hard to sympathize with her at all.

 

[stormymac]

I have a question. Clearly some people believe that Danny and Lindsay have been in an exclusive relationship since at least SD and, because of this belief, have been using some pretty hateful words to describe Danny (coward, man-whore) and Rikki (cow, bitch). So lets just say that you guys are right and that Danny and Lindsay have been a serious couple since SD. What if the situation was reversed. What if Danny met Rikki at the end of last season and she was the one with whom he had the pool table sex. They, like you say about Danny and Lindsay, become a couple and then Ruben is killed. Danny is so devastated and guilt-ridden that he can't face Rikki and, in his grief, he turns to Lindsay and they end up sleeping together. Would everyone who thinks Danny "cheated" on Lindsay, describe the two of them using the same words that have been used to describe Danny and Rikki and would what they've done be just as unforgivable?

 

[origin-nknwn]

I voted no, purely for the most common reason most people have already cited who voted the same - there has been very little evidence of a continuing relationship between Danny and Lindsay since Snow Day.

His reaction to her saying she's in love with him very obviously showed they are in different thought spaces as far as their 'relationship' goes.

 

[melanie33]

I'm voting I dont know.

Carmine said in his latest interview "Either they are going to get really serious or its going to be over" So obviously there was something going on, because for something to be over there has to be something there to begin with. What that relationship actually is, who knows, because TPTB have not given one hint either way for the whole season.


TPTB should have been more clear about what D/L's relationship actually was. We the audience shouldn't be made to assume. When they said at the start of the season D/L are together , people assume they still are now, something as big as a break up will happen on screen. Thats why a lot of people are reacting with "Danny's cheating."

If I was only a part time or casual viewer, I probably would put that first scene where Danny hangs up the phone after brushing Lindsay off and lies to her, with the second scene where's it made obvious that he slept with Riki , to the third scene where Lindsay tells him she loves him and makes the G/F comment, together and assume he cheated.

And in regards to Anna's comment about not knowing. I took that as her and Carmine joking about it, because they had hardly interacted all season. And in regards to CG's interview here at CSI FILES . I assumed he meant after what happened in Ep 16 he didn't know. Because really it wasn't made clear what Danny's reaction to Lindsay love comment was. He probably didn't know what Danny was going to do about it. Hence his "thats what we are wondering, thats what we are trying to see".