Debate/Dislike a Ship Thread -- CSI:NY

[lament]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Hmmm.... Where to jump in? :lol:

Top41 said:
I'll start!

Not a fan of the idea of NY going for "canon" ships. I've always been about subtlty.

I'm not either. Don't get me wrong. I would entertain the idea of a canon ship if it seemed organic to me. Unfortunately, what usually seems to happen is two characters are forced together as a couple even when it makes no sense within the context of the show or the personalities of the characters.

Top, I agree with what you said about Danny/Lindsay. I missed a lot of episodes this past season, but the interactions I've seen between them do seem...scripted. Yeah, yeah. The whole show is scripted. But when the chemistry between two characters is really there, it shouldn't seem scripted.

Like I was saying in the Miami debate, the fun of shipping for me is imagining all of these amazing possibilities. I like to take the subtext given to me in the show and play with it. That way, fans of all different couples can have fun reading between the lines. If TPTB mandate that one ship or another is canon, that takes something away from everyone who does not ship that ship.

My main ship for NY is probably Danny/Flack. Fay, for some reason I can't seem to quote your post *kicks the computer*, but I wanted to comment on how you said you saw the relationship. I agree that the world is not divided into gay and straight. People get so caught up on labels, but I tend to think they get in the way. I've been slashing since I was in junior high, and I never really thought of the characters I wrote about in terms of gay or straight. If I thought worked together, then I put them together. That's how I see Danny and Flack. It's not a gay/straight thing. It's about connecting with another person, and then deciding to take it to the next level.

Okay, I've rambled enough. :lol:

 

[Springmoon]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

^Ramble on!

I didn't mean to suggest that they were gay or straight - I think it's something that stuck in my head from the actual D/F ship thread that crept over here and into my hapless fingers. Stupid fingers.

I really like D/F as a couple though, but heaven forbid it become canon. Heaven forbid any of the ships become canon. Like many of you, I firmly believe that they should stay in the realm of fanfic. That's about when ER started to become too silly for me to watch. I like the idea of the main characters hooking up with the peripheral ones, i.e. the guest stars, which is probably one of the reasons why Mac/Peyton isn't likely to bug me too much. But if your name is in the opening credits, then please, keep your relationship your summer secret :lol:

 

[lament]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Springmoon said:

I really like D/F as a couple though, but heaven forbid it become canon. Heaven forbid any of the ships become canon. Like many of you, I firmly believe that they should stay in the realm of fanfic.

Another reason I don't want my pet ships to become canon is a lack of trust in the show's writers. Seriously, don't we all kind of have a vision of what a Danny/Flack or Mac/Stella, etc. relationship should be like? Would a canon interpretation reach our expectations? Probably not. We'd be shouting at the screen, saying, "No! That's not where they were supposed to go on their first date!" :lol:

 

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Lament, I agree with the lack of faith in the writers. Not only do I think they'd screw with shippers' ideas for het ships, but consider the slash ones. I can't quite get myself to believe that they could do a slash ship on the show without doing the "we're secretly gay" thing and then having a field day with how various characters, suspects, random people on the street reacted. I have no problem with homosexuality, but tv doesn't do a good job of representing it, and I expect the same would be true of slash. I don't think the writers could differentiate between two gay guys in a relationship and two straight guys who just happen to fall in love with each other.

And yeah, making a ship canon ruins that ship and others as well. If they make a ship canon, you can't really ship one of the characters with another person can you? It automatically becomes AU.

I agree with you, Springmoon, that having a main character with a peripheral character is a much better idea. They wouldn't be working with each other for an entire episode, they could be absent from episodes, etc. It's one of the reasons why I just can't imagine a relationship like Mac/Stella or Danny/Lindsay working. They work together so much, you know the writers couldn't resist making it romance with a tiny side order of crime solving. And really, if I want that crap I'll turn on "The Young and the Restless" or "Passions".

Oh, and lament, if you ramble, what on earth am I doing? :lol:

 

[glam_chic86]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Wow, there are definitely some interesting debates & points going on here. I don't know if I can be as good as you all but I'll try :lol:. I'll start off with the ships I like...

Mac/Stella: They have been my main ship from day one. Some may argue that they are nothing more then good friends but when I look at it I see a fine line between friendship and love and they're definitely on the love side. Luckily for them they already have the communication & trust aspect down pact due to the fact that they were friends for a very long time. When Mac was married to his late wife Claire I have a feeling he confided in Stella with his marital problems and she would keep whatever he told her a secret. Being friends allowed them to get comfortable with one another so that when they began dating the romantic part came easily for them. Mac may have appeared to be cold in the past but I think he struggles with his emotions unlike Stella who is pretty straight forward on how her heart feels. I could tell he was hurting in All Access. The fact that she always checks up on him says alot. Some may say that's just the loyalty part of a friendship but I can tell by her body language and tone of voice that she has romantic feelings for him. I think that if they didn't know each other for many years as friends they probably would not end up together. My favourite part is the UST. You could get the sexual tension with a knife! Plus, the looks that Stella gives Mac when he's not looking are HOT! She wants that body all to herself so she can do whatever she wants to it when she wants :devil:.

Danny/Flack: When I first thought about this ship around the first season I laughed. I thought they were too different to be with one another but after episodes like Trapped & RSRD I gave these two guys a thought and figured that they were good together. Even though they are the odd couple they somehow mesh together. If you combine Flack's tough NY guy attitude with Danny's fiery temper you get pretty sexy couple. The differences they share brings them together and makes them compatable. Flack has absolutely no problem telling the world that he loves his Danny boy. He always gives him these super sensual look whenever they're in the lab or working on a case together. Danny is shy when it comes to eye contact but through body language he shows that he loves his Flack. They always manage to look out for each other and they make sure that they have each others back. They're also really good friends & they have absolutely no problems teasing each other. After watching On The Job I realized that Flack was crazy over Danny. Flack is Danny's guardian angel, always looking out for his best friend & lover. While Danny tries to maintain that he's afraid of commiment we know that he's ready to fully give his heart to Danny. The fact that he's been hurt by so many loved ones in his life makes him vulnerable but Flack has proved many times that he'll never leave his side. It probably took Flack some time to persue Danny. Basically the reason why I love this ship so much is despite the differences these two have something really going on, something most people can't find in their lifetime. Flack has taken Danny under his wings to become his protector & lover & because of that Danny has allowed himself to open up & I'm sure with anyone else Danny could never do that. It's all in the trust. Oh, and Flack is the exception when it comes to Danny & his no cuddle policy .

Oh, and I'm totally against these two ships becoming canon. It'll take away the fun of fan fics & we can't speculate anymore 'cause what's there is there. Also, if they break up there will be some tension & it ain't good tension either. I just want to happen in my mind & in the stories I read. Plus, if I want some inner-office romance I'll watch some crappy daytime soap. What I want to happen & what the writers will do are two completely different things. They'll be less fun then me.

 

[Radical618]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Is that your not-so-subtle way of saying I dissed someone's ship? I'm not trying to insult anybody who follows a ship, simply to express my personal opinions about all of the ships on the show.

Actually I had no intention on that.. really I didn't... I just have a really guilty mind so if I were to do that I'd feel really mean and stupid... (I'm a geek I know)

 

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Oh jorja, why did you worry? :lol: You did an excellent job.

Wonderful points about Danny and Flack.

I also love what you said about Mac/Stella. I think I can agree with the things you say up to the point that they're already together, then I have to disagree. It's quite obvious from events this past season and the beginning of the coming season that they aren't together. Yet. I can see them right on that fine line you mentioned, but maybe they're afraid to cross over just yet. I think it could definitely happen, eventually, but for right now I think it's all about the friendship and the sexual tension.

They'll be less fun then me.

You mean they can't be nearly as smutty as you would be. :lol:

ETA: I was typing at the same time you were, Radical.

Oh, I was just joking, really, about the 'subtle hint' thing. I tried not to diss anyone's ship or anything, but when you turned around and said that I kind of went "wait, did I?..." :lol: No worries, you know I love you.

 

[Top41]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

I agree completely with what lament and others have said about the canon thing. It just never (or almost never) works out as well on screen as it does in people's imaginations. I actually thought Danny and Lindsay were kind of cute in the beginning, but the bad writing for their scenes together (seriously, is that supposed to be flirting? :lol: ) and the lack of chemistry between the actors killed whatever intriguing possibilities there might have been for me between those two. Having a scene every episode killed all the mystery and subtlty that makes TV pairings fun. In a show that goes on for years, is there ever a need to have a forced flirting scene between two characters in every episode?

Though I'm not a Mac/Stella shipper, I do believe their interactions are handled with much more subtlty. Their banter can come off as either flirting or joking, depending on how the viewer wants to see it. Not so with the ill-fitting Danny and Lindsay interactions.

That's why I like Flack and Danny together--it's all about the little details. Well, save for Flack's staring--that is impossible to miss. It's a wonder the man hasn't walked into a brick wall by now! :lol:

 

[Guest]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

I think Carmine got it right when he said that the most interesting thing about Danny and Lindsay is they have this city guy-country girl thing going on. And as far as I'm concerned, it completely works, you know. Because Danny is this street-smart, gets in a suspect's face kind of guy while Lindsay is (often times) subtle and soft-spoken. Maybe it's a culture thing, too. I'm Filipino and we love these pairings, the bad-boy type guy and the shy, geeky girl.

I think it starts with how we perceive Danny and Lindsay individually. Some perceptions I've read here is that Danny's a player, which I'm kind of not agreeing with. He probably does go out on dates, he had a girlfriend at some point, but I'd like to think that he's respectful of women and this is reflected in his interactions with Stella and Aiden in Season 1. If I were to find a suitable pair for Danny, I really won't go for the strong, sexy personality type that would probably be like a young Stella. It would be interesting to find Danny's opposite.

Which brings us to Lindsay. Again, how people feel about the Danny-Lindsay pairing is also affected by how they feel about Lindsay. Some find her annoying. Frankly, I don't. Lindsay has indeed brought a breath of fresh air to these New Yorkers. And really, when she's onscreen, it just lights up. She's cute and quirky and fun... we've seen Sara Sidle and Catherine Willows and Sofia and all these women. Lindsay is like the first legitimately CUTE CSI. And I completely understand why that would annoy some people (CSI and CUTE doesn't seem to match).

But I do agree that in order for this ship to be accepted by a bigger majority, we need more back story on Lindsay. Because Danny we already love (and Carmine too haha). "Stealing Home" was a pretty good Lindsay episode and I'd like to see more of that.

I read somewhere that Carmine said that the Danny-Lindsay pairing will have something interesting in the first four episodes. Despite being a HUGE fan of this ship, I really think it should be a heart-breaking episode. I read some spoilers than Lindsay is going to turn down Danny. That's cool. That's ok. Maybe Lindsay would have a boyfriend. Maybe we'll get to meet Danny's Cindy. Heck, maybe the picture Lindsay was looking at in "Stealing Home" is that of her HUSBAND or something. SO that we can get to know them INDIVIDUALLY in a relationship with other people. So that when finally, that much-awaited episode comes, where Danny and Lindsay meets eye-to-eye, it will be worth it.

That's how stories are anyway. You have to mix it up.

 

[Springmoon]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

lindsaymesser said:
we love these pairings, the bad-boy type guy and the shy, geeky girl.

There's no denying that these two are opposites. The interaction was fun and a little cute at first when it was well-written, but Top41 said it best: it became very forced and there was certainly no need to have it written into every episode. There's also nothing shy or geeky about Lindsay. Dancing with the Fishes was on again last night and she got Mac and Stella's grudging admiration for the way she took down that lady in the interrogation room. That's the Lindsay that I liked at the start of the season!

I think it starts with how we perceive Danny and Lindsay individually. Some perceptions I've read here is that Danny's a player, which I'm kind of not agreeing with. He probably does go out on dates, he had a girlfriend at some point, but I'd like to think that he's respectful of women and this is reflected in his interactions with Stella and Aiden in Season 1.

I don't think that being a player necessarily means that he is disrespectful to women. The women we've seen him interact with are suspects, victims, and coworkers so far - all work-related. If he were to disrespect any of the above he could be fired or slapped down by Stella because you know she won't put up with that crap.

That's how stories are anyway. You have to mix it up.

Amen to that. Much like this thread!

 

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

I don't think Danny's a player in that he's disrespectful to women, but more that he's not the type to get into a serious, committed relationship with a woman at this point. I also don't really see him as the type to date a co-worker. Flirt, yes. Date, no. My idea of Danny as a so-called 'player' includes him not getting into situations that he'll be uncomfortable with later on--he's done this for long enough to know how it works. If he's just flirting with someone he works with, making the move to having a relationship would be awkward if and when it ends and they're still forced to work together. But that's just my opinion.

I also don't think Danny's character is as cut and dry as people sometimes assume. Yeah, he's pretty 'street smart' and 'in your face' but he's also highly emotional, desperate to please Mac, and sometimes surprisingly understanding (like in the scene from "Super Men" where they were talking to the father who killed the football player--Lindsay was a bit cold but Danny seemed to feel for him). So finding his 'opposite' isn't that cut and dry either, and nor do I think that's who he'd necessarily go for. Doesn't mean it's what's best for him or whatever, but I think he'd really be attracted to the fiesty girls like Aiden (despite my personal feelings that their relationship was purely friendship), and while Lindsay has a certain spunk to her, I don't think it's exactly the same. But that's neither here nor there, really.

I didn't have a problem with Lindsay in the beginning, whether she was 'fresh air' or 'sparkly' or whatever else people use over and over again to describe her. I didn't have a prejudice against her for jealous reasons or whatever else, I was actually excited to see her come to NY. And she wasn't 'annoying' at first, it was later on in the season that she started to grate on my nerves. But that's not really the point of this thread, so I digress. I also never thought she was 'shy and geeky.' She strikes me as the type to be anything but shy, and I'm cool with that. She might seem deceptively soft-spoken and harmless, but she's not afraid to speak her mind and go in for the kill, so to speak, on a case. I like those things about her. She's pretty in a much more natural and I-can-relate-to-her sort of way, whether you like that or not, but that's not my idea of 'cute.' And she was 'fun' at a certain point in the season, but what in the hell happened toward the end? It wasn't even the same character. But I think having a 'cute' CSI could be interesting if they did it well and I thought it was believable for the character, but that brings me to Anna's acting and that's also not the point of this thread.

I agree that the most interesting thing about Danny/Lindsay is the 'country girl and city boy' interaction--but that's cliche and overdone, so maybe that's part of the reason why I'm so unimpressed. I don't think the actors or characters have the type of chemistry that would warrant such a warp-speed relationship, and using 'country girl/city boy' doesn't cut it.

I also would like for this 'moment' between Danny and Lindsay to end the D/L relationship for now, and if the writers plan to pursue the relationship again in the future, they'd better do a hell of a lot more to sell it to the viewers. The relationship they've set up thus far is superficial and weak and would last all of about a few months on a soap opera before Lindsay ended up pregnant and Danny was running off with her sister/best friend/mother and she's be plotting to have their car crash or something. Soap opera quality on a prime time drama is not a good combination--just look at the reactions to some of the stuff on CSI:Miami from last season.

In any case, I'm still not sold on this pairing, and I sincerely doubt that the writing for the beginning of season three will get me to follow it before whatever happens, happens. *shrug*

 

[kinkapoodles]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

Wow, what a lot to take in. I totally agree with you Fay about Danny. He's not been in a committed relationship and I don't think he really wants to be. Danny's such a drama queen that it would be a challenge in itself to keep up with him. Of course, IMO, nobody else could do that better than Flack.

I too hope that the "moment" between D/L ends the relationship. I just don't think now is the time to pursue it, if ever. What I think could be interesting is if Danny flirts like crazy with the new detective. Danny is a flirt and I don't see him passing up the chance.

Lindsay is like the first legitimately CUTE CSI. And I completely understand why that would annoy some people (CSI and CUTE doesn't seem to match).

If you mean "cute" as in a childish way, I'll agree with that. That's just the way I see Lindsay. A female CSI that I think is cute (in a different kind of way) is Calleigh. Of course that's on Miami but if they wanted to transfer her to NY, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I already think she and Flack would make a cute couple.

I too am not sold on this pairing. TPTB haven't convinced me. If I saw a spark of chemistry then maybe, but I haven't. Also, I don't like ships going canon on TV and that includes my favorite pairing of Danny/Flack.

 

[Radical618]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

I dont know if I'd really want my ships to go canon... the only reason I would, would just for some closer like "Okay, at least I'm not crazy for thinking these two are good together..." (If that made any sense at all.. )

 

[Faylinn]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

I know what you mean. You see all of the different possibilites and wonder if you're just crazy for liking the ones you do instead of the others. :lol: (And I don't mean 'you' specifically, but as a general, all-encompassing 'you,' which also includes me...that was a bit confusing, I think. :lol

But I was the same way at first, especially considering that Danny/Flack is so unconventional when you think about the sorts of ships that go canon on tv shows. Now I'm just content to be happy with the ship myself and to share it with other, like-minded people. That's hard to do, sometimes, when you find so many people with different feelings about the same thing. Of course, I'm also really fond of debating, clearly, since I've done that so much in this thread and others. :lol: I think as long as I can love my ship and not take it personally, I'm good. Some fans get really defensive about their ships, and don't want to hear anything negative against them, so it's definitely important to me that I try to make sure I don't make what someone could view as a personal insult. (Even if it might sometimes seem to some that I'm insulting a particular ship, which I really don't want to do, I swear--state a negative opinion, yes, but not insult.)

Look at me, running my mouth. :lol: I get a bit carried away sometimes, don't I?

 

[Radical618]

Re: The Great Ship Debate--CSI: NY

So maybe this is the wrong place for this (if it is, ignore it), but if a ship that you (that's general too) despise became canon, would you still watch?

I know some people who wouldn't, and IMO, I don't agree. If you really love the show that much, a ship that you personally don't like that much shouldn't comletley throw you out-of-whack.

Maybe no one here does that, I'm just wondering, being nosey actually... I work like that a lot. :lol: