Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Faylinn, May 23, 2009.
lol maybe they just screwing with us and there is no one else coming in :guffaw:just a thought
I had a hunch there'd be some anger about the announcement.
I think I'll be okay as long as Mac and Stella are safe *hides them away*
Slight Newbie here. Question. Are there any close female relationships in any of the CSI shows? Like "my best girlfriend is also my coworker" relationships? Because I keep seeing people all over the fandom being all about the fact that Lindsay and Stella aren't all that close, and I'm just shrugging here. They certainly get along a lot better than I remember Sara and Catherine getting along (who, half the time, barely seemed able to tolerate each other even on the job), and while I'm not exactly a regular viewer of CSI Miami, I don't recall ever seeing Calleigh with any female friends at all. She got along with Alexx, and maybe that tawny-haired girl (sorry, I just know that her actor's first name is Eva), but not on a personal level. It's something weird I've noticed in all three shows. Especially when you consider the great guy relationships we get, like Warrick-Nick, Flack-Danny, etc. Not exactly unique to CSI:NY.
With Stella and Lindsay, at least we get that they talk on a somewhat-personal level, even if they're not buddy-buddy or have a defined relationship.
Personal opinion speaking, but I think Lindsay and Stella already provide a fairly effective girl-power dynamic. I have gotten from my scanning of this board that this isn't exactly a popular opinion here, but I also have to say that I've only been CSI-NY-internet board-hopping since mid-February. Which means I can't sum up the number of differing opinions I've seen on all those boards, and thus a lot of my working knowledge is going from consistencies I've seen on the show -- and assumptions I'm making from those consistencies. I'm assuming that the writers wouldn't keep coming back to a dynamic that just didn't work, and Lindsay and Stella have been the sole CSIs on enough cases that there can't be much of a problem with their dynamic.
This begs the question of why it was Angell who then worked with Stella on her Diakos Moby-Dick case, but it's kind of obvious. They may have written the pregnancy into the storyline this time, but Lindsay as a character tends to disappear into the woodwork regardless whenever Anna Belknap is pregnant.
The first thing that popped into my mind when I saw "new female CSI" was Sofia Curtis, who was inserted as a new character without anyone having to die or disappear in terms of screentime. She was a recurring character, even if she didn't show up in every episode. I'm half-laughing, half-cringing at the horror the poor actress who ends up having to carry off the personality of this new CSI will go through. The role is one that, imo, first went to Lindsay Monroe (and Belknap tried to carry off); say what you like about Belknap's acting, but character-wise she wasn't given a very good deal to begin with. She did well in the beginning, (IMHO, I still think Lindsay Monroe is all of those things), but the moment the writer's try to give said Mary-Sue an actual storyline, things will inevitably go awry. The character will start to grate. People have to understand that the thing about spunky, curious, attractive, endearing characters is that the other characters on the show will also find them spunky and endearing et al, will become fond of them, and will feel compelled to let things (like, say, bad behaviour or left-out evidence) slide that they would slap down on other characters for. Sound familiar?
...The other thing is that the last spunky, curious, etc, character we had was Angell. I hated her from the get-go, and I don't feel that I was alone or even in the minority with this. I mean, they brought recurring characters Adam and Sid into the main cast, even though comparatively, Angell wasn't that far behind them in joining the recurring cast. And she gets booted off? Because of budget cuts - which, if this new character story is true, starts looking like a really flimsy excuse? I can't help but feel that if the fan response to her was as positive as it must have been for Adam (and Sid, though he may simply have been necessary), she would have become a series regular regardless of budget.
I personally think this is what gives Lindsay the human touch separate from the Mary-Sue, which is what made me like her better. At the very least, it made her more reminiscent of other CSI characters, who seem to get that either character quirks or traumatic past events don't just shake your game once before never bothering you at work again. I'm not saying that I like it when Lindsay screws up -- it grates, and it doesn't make her an excellent CSI. But I like knowing that she does screw up, if that makes sense.
Aside: I've never seen Lindsay's irritation in MM as a screw-up, so I'm a little confused here. Nothing in her dialogue made it sound like she was upset about not getting to see the cool stuff, more like she wanted to prove herself. In S1, Aiden was all eager about getting to work on a human skull, never mind the tragedy of the teenage kid having been lying in that alley for about 20 years -- that didn't take away from her character, imo, it just highlighted her desire to prove herself.
S5 was disappointing on various levels, I'm wondering how they will tighten their shit for S6. Because they really need to! And that cliffhanger thing?! Gosh. I was kinda pissed that Angell couldn't have a peaceful and proper wake like Aiden lol But just like most viewers, they got me intrigued. I personnally want a character we don't see often get hurt because that could lead to some story for them. I got nothing against Stella, Flack or Danny but I feel the other characters' story are being killed as soon as we get a little something. We are being cruelly teased, people!!! I'd like to see more Adam and Hawkes. Both actors proved they can handle different kind of situation with their acting skills. I LOVED injured Adam in Snow Day and Hawkes is always performed flawlessly by Hill Harper. So, anything with them in S6 will definitely make me a joyous viewer. I'd like more Sid but I'm nore sure how they can do that with him being always with the corpses and the fridges.
I just read that they are bringing a new character and I feel pissed because they got rid of Angell when there was something about her that was ready to be explore. And now it seem more like total bullshit their excuse of killing her off because of budget-cuts!!! They got her in the coin story with Stella (that showed good traits of her character IMO) and she had this romantic relationship with Flack... and honestly, that would have been a relationship I would have like to see evolved on screen rather than this D/L weird married couple with baby thing. Her character had interesting layers or at least that was the vibe I got from her. Eddie and Emmanuelle worked together in a way that, in my opinion and perception, bring the best out of their characters. I will miss that. That's something we didn't get to see with Mac's girlfriend (can't remember her name right now lol Peyton?) or D/L. Not here for bashing, just sayin'.
"Sexy and funny, and she isn't afraid to take risks" reads a part of the description of the new female investigator (grrr! Adam need to do some voodoo and bring Angell back... even if she's a zombie)... I don't know if it's just me but I got the feeling she's there to stir up some trouble in paradise for Lindsay :lol: You know, the cliché sexy woman in office that makes married woman feel threaten? lol I'm sure I'm wrong but Jealous Lindsay is probably something Anna can act well. I hope they won't fall in the usual patterns with this sexy, new character... Anyone knows who will play her?
Finally, I'd lke to see Flack struggling with the loss of Angell at the beginning of the season. If they bring him back all "Yeah, I got over it eventually", I'm gonna shoot my TV. I was amazed by his performance on the season 5 finale, it would be interesting to see Flack loosing his senses a little bit. Not in a Danny-way. I imagine Flack taking on more workload to cover the emptyness and to get away with his grief. So, supposing he would react like this, we could see him being a little lost with his mixed feelings of sadness and guilt (the maybe-dead criminal responsible of Angell's death). Not sure how to explain it... like he gets home from work, we see him take a drink of some alcohol and sits and stares in the blank with a "tortured" (can't find a better term) look in his eyes... y'know, lost win his memories of Angell... Now that I think about it... something like that would be so fucking cliché... Scratch that lol Someone mentionned he could have sessions with the departement therapist and THAT I would freakin' love to see. It would be a great opportunity to peek at Flack's personnality and how he deals with his emotions. Because Flack is all 'bout business, it would be a nice change to see that side of him...
I think the whole thing of bringing in a new CSI is really bad planning..
Way to piss off the fans, tell them a character they like has to go because of budget cuts, then bringing in a new character a few weeks later. Yip that makes sense...:wtf:
They have said everyone is back for next season....unless someone is leaving in the first few eps I think another CSI is a BIG mistake. :scream: Plus Sinclare was pushing for less lab techs cause he didnt have the money, but they can afford a new higher paid CSI??? Possibly thats how they can afford it they fired Sinclair, or Mac did him in:guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:
How about utilising Hawkes for a change, he is so underused its not funny.
The ONLY way this makes sense is if Lindsay is leaving. I wouldnt mind, dont hate her, but I must admit I wouldnt miss her either, but I put that down to bad writing and character development, because I liked her when she first arrived but as time wore on I have lost all interest in her as a character. I must admit over the last couple of season I feel the same way about Danny.
Lindsay could decide after the shoot out, that having two people from a family in a risky job is a bad idea. Or she could be injured and unable to work. Doing it either way, rather than going down the emotionaly cliched route of killing her off, would leave the door open for guest shots.
I dont like the sound of the profile of the newbie, the character sounds like steriotypical window dressing to me, and I havent even seen her yet.
That's the first thing that came to mind for me when I read about the new CSI. I really can't see Lindsay getting killed off as it would completely obliterate Angell's death and be overkill to have both Flack and Danny grieving like that. The scenario of Lindsay deciding to step back would fit with the previous spoilers about someone's life being changed, as well as the change to the line-up. It's actually a good opportunity for some continuity and for them to dig a little deeper into Lindsay's character, drawing parallels between Angell getting shot in the diner, the gunman shooting at them in the bar, and Lindsay's past. They probably won't go there but it'd be interesting to see.
I guess it could also be one of the guy's being out of action for a while, yet they're bringing in a new female to balance out the m/f ratio a little more. I'm really not convinced they're going to kill anyone else off but it could be a case of a longer term injury. A fair few of the actors have other commitments, be that a new baby, politics, music or other acting gigs so it's entirely possible one of them wants to step back but not out entirely.
What I can see also is one of them severely injured and paralysed for a while so he or she has to stay at the lab.
Well I am wondering if maybe EV or her agent decided it was time to get her added to the main cast with an associated bump in salary and said "do it or I'll walk" and TPTB decided with budget cuts they couldn't afford that, but they could afford a newer, less experienced i.e. cheaper actress and so they wrote out Angell.
Didn't the 'budget cut' story come from EV or her reps? It sounds to me like a tactful way to explain things.
EV said that she was told by a producer she wasn't returning due to budget cuts. We have no way of knowing what that all entails, but the fact that she said she was informed by TPTB that her character was being written out suggests to me that she didn't have a role in the character being cut.
Just a thought - it could be that the character leaving has nothing to do with the cliffhanger. We were told that we would see D/L struggling with bringing up a baby and working, it could be as a result of that struggle that Lindsay decided to become a stay-at-home mam or reduce her hours, leaving the lab in need of a new CSI. That way we wouldn't see another character death.
I think it depends if the decision on who is going is totally the decision of TPTB or is being influenced by one of the actors wanting to reduce their hours/leave. If it is being influence by the actor then I think Hill must be a real contender as he has so much going on, and Anna as she has a new baby.
I'm still amazed at all of this New CSI info especially because this "spoiler" is not from too long ago:
Will CSI: NY add to its cast given the death of Emmanuelle Vaugier's Det. Angell? — Ted
TIM: Don't... make... Angell-gone-to-the-angels joke. Must... attempt... real answer. And it is probably no. When we asked Melina Kanakaredes if the show will run out and replace Vaugier, she said, "I doubt it, especially since there's that possibility that somebody else may go" as a result of the season finale cliffhanger. "I think we're going to stick with what we've got."
It sounds like the cast might be as surprised as we are with this info. Or they just decided not to talk about it. I wonder what they're reactions might be.
I'm actually open to the idea of a new CSI, but not with this supposed budget cut crap that apparently makes them kill a recurring character but can still hire a new regular. That would be 9 regulars. The only way i'm totally accepting this is if someone is offed in the cliffhanger. The other option, is that they better make this an awesome and, likeable character.
And with all this Anna/Lindsay stuff, I do know that she has a lot of fans and all but I just don't like how Anna delivers her lines or portrays her character. The character is not good to begin with, but Anna doesn't help matters either. I'm sure she's a lovely person, but as an actress, she's just not very good IMO. I hope Lindsay does decide to sort of "quit" i guess, she's already part time as mentioned in Grounds For Deception. So they're going to need more help either way.
Well, they start filming season 6 early July so I guess we will start getting more spoilers around then too.
I don’t watch the other CSI’s on a regular basis so can’t really speak to how they handle the female relationships. I have noticed a similar trend in a few other shows with male-dominated casts – seems like the female to female relationships (especially between leading and supporting characters) sometimes get short-changed for whatever reason.
I wouldn’t say this is a major issue for a show like CSI:NY…. It’s more as a missed opportunity for the characters, especially Lindsay who could benefit from additional personal connections, imo. As indicated in another thread, one of the problems I see with Lindsay is that she really doesn’t seem to have a close emotional connection to anyone else on the team except Danny. Yes, she commiserates about what happens to others but usually isn’t the one to offer any direct support or comfort . Considering all the stuff that’s happened to Stella, e.g., there have been several opportunities for Lindsay to show support for Stella, which might’ve helped establish a bond between the two and also softened Lindsay as a character. But, nothing like that really happened between the two, and when the writers put them in personal moments now, it sometimes come across a bit awkwardly.
Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I think they have had some decent scenes together – some of the ones that come to mind from this season are their lab scenes in the doll episode and their work together in “Rush to Judgment.” So I wouldn’t say there is a problem with their dynamic when it comes to working together. That said, I can’t think of many scenes between them (work-related or otherwise) over the last few seasons that stand out as powerful and that make me really look forward to seeing them onscreen together. I don’t get that girl-power vibe from seeing them together, but as you indicated, it’s a matter of personal opinion, and I can understand that you might see it differently.
With the Diakos case, I think Angell was also involved because she is a detective, and it would be more believable to have her helping Stella in an undercover operation. I can’t really see the Lindsay of the last few seasons in that role even if AB hadn’t been pregnant. And I did think Stella and Angell were quite effective together and had a good dynamic onscreen.
I agree that those types of characters can grate at times, but I think some fans (and I am usually one of them) can live with them if they are believable and actually contribute something unique and interesting to the team. Then it makes sense that the other team members might like them or cut them some slack as well. I think one of the main problems with Lindsay is that regardless of how she started, she is not really that same spunky/ attractive/endearing character any longer, so seeing the others indulge her and let things slide seems too contrived and artificial.
I agree that Lindsay had a good start – I liked her little rivalry with Danny and the ways the writers tried to show her spunk and enthusiasm. Over time, she and her role have changed, though, and she seems to have become more lab-oriented and less action-oriented. And if they really bring in a new CSI and spend time establishing that character and her relationships with the others, I just wonder how Lindsay (a character who is already a bit disconnected from the team, imo) will fit in.
I guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens re: the new character’s status to better understand the budget issues. Personally, I think one thing that may've hurt Angell’s status is her role as a detective….Longerr term, TPIC may simply feel they cannot sustain two regular detectives in the cast. I agree it will look (and feel) bad if they simply cut Angell and bring in a new character, but I will be surprised if that’s all that happens. Like others have mentioned, I’m sort of expecting someone else to leave or drastically cut back appearances, and in that case, there could be some sort of cost savings. Guess the picture will be clearer by July, which is not that much longer.
I agree that would be interesting and give Lindsay a shorter term development arc , which could add some depth and give her something different to work with.
D**n it, it is way too long to July, let alone to season 6
I'd rather not see a character die as opposed to just deciding to take some time off (to stay at home with a baby, or something) -- but there's simply no point to that shootout in the diner if they weren't planning on using it. I don't see anyone dying, maybe just hospitalized for a while. Even beginner shows know that it's overkill to kill more than one character off in less than two episodes, but a few shows this year have been using season-finale gimmick of having two beloved characters' lives hang in the balance. Grey's Anatomy, anyone?
CSI Las Vegas had nine regulars at one point. But in my experience, it's hard if not impossible to make any one character seem awesome and likeable to everyone -- even harder if they're there to basically replace a character that viewers are at least used to, if not fond of. New characters are held to a ridiculously high standard, another reason I don't think the addition of this one is a good idea.
This is going to tie into something else I want to say, but I agree that Lindsay doesn't have a close emotional connection to anyone other than Danny on the team. It's one of the defining things I see in her character. I was a fan of the original CSI for a while before I liked CSINY, so I tend to link Lindsay to Sara Sidle (who likewise had no emotional ties to anyone other than Grissom on the team -- and at least D/L seems healthier than that connection). This "no friends" thing sometimes seems to come across as a shock to a lot, but to me it's little more than a re-used character flaw.
I do, however, think that if there is someone on the team aside from Danny and Mac who seems especially fond of Lindsay, it is Stella. Also why I'm not surprised at seeing them in personal moments either now or before, though I do agree that they tend to come across awkwardly. Neither Stella nor Lindsay seem to know whether to approach each other as sisterly-friends or subordinate-supervisor, but it's not from lack of trying on Stella's part, even if Lindsay's not the greatest at reciprocating. This comes back to the girl-power dynamic I personally see between them, which yes, is a matter of opinion. But Stella's shown support for Lindsay before. She was the only one to contact her during the Katum trial in Montana (without actually flying over to Montana, I mean). She was the one to be nicest to Lindsay on her first day at the lab, and the one who offered to be a friend in Silent Night, even as she was laying down the law. She always seems to be the one to be all "be patient Mac, it's always worth it" when it comes to Lindsay's experiments. Lindsay knew about Drew's thing for Stella before even Mac did. It's not a lot, especially given the strength of the other relationships we see on this show. But in light of it, it's not that shocking to me that Lindsay would talk to Stella about her fears of motherhood, even if she is awkward around her. It's no more shocking than it was when Lindsay was upset about what happened to Stella in All Access. It's certainly enough when you compare it to the other female relationships in the CSI franchise, which I think must be done, because CSI isn't big on female relationships in general. If Stella and Lindsay are awkward as friends, it probably can't be relegated to yet another statistic casualty of Anna Belknap's acting. The writers are kind of working with unfamiliar material here.
True, I didn't consider this. Lindsay's not great with undercover, and while I wasn't a fan of hers, I did like the way Angell was able to effortlessly play off of Kolovos.
But you have to admit that some fans -- quite a LOT of fans, actually -- don't think so. Quite a lot of fans still see Lindsay as that spunky/attractive/endearing character, and thus don't think it's that surprising to see the other characters indulge her. I'd wager a lot that a huge chunk of those fans are still the same ones who were able to live with Lindsay from the beginning because they see her as believable, and certainly contributing something unique to the team (well, I do, anyway).
I totally agree that Lindsay's role changed over time -- she became more "real", so to speak, and thus started to grate. Spunky and endearing characters in general are viewed suspiciously, because it's well-known that spunky, attractive, curious, etc aren't enough to describe a character as a person. Not without making them sound like a Mary Sue. No one is spunky and cute ALL the time, real people deal with things, mess up, make enemies, go off the deep end, let their sympathies interfere with criminal investigations, and so on. And it's rarely fun to see a character we know will be universally loved on the show because of her supposed personality traits, get a free pass when they do these things, while other characters are treated more realistically.
I will say, however, that if the new character takes up the mantle of "free pass", it might actually be good for Lindsay, and help her fit in better. More people might call her on her BS, and thus give her a more defined role on the show.
Sorry, I know I took this quote out of context, but I do have to bring up a pattern I've noticed. I don't quite agree that Lindsay's role has changed from lab-oriented to action-oriented, but I do think it fluctuates. More specifically, I think it fluctuates from action-oriented when Anna Belknap isn't pregnant, to lab-oriented when she is, which is a little frustrating, to say the least. But she was certainly action-oriented enough in Season 4 and 2, not so much in S3 and 5.
I couldn't agree more!!! :thumbsup: The budget-cut seems more and more like a big lame excuse to bring something "hottt and fresh" to the NY house. I would have liked Vaugier to become a regular, her character had potential. And I think she was the only female kinda bonding with Stella, as it was discussed previously (or at least something clicked between them)... Eventually, they could have had all the females hanging out after work and stuff like that -- we had Danny and Flack playing pool together... I can't remember what episode and what season... but something of the like for the three girls would have been nice. And it could have played in the "Let Danny take care of the baby for a night" D/L drama. But I digress. Who knows what they plan to do with the new addition. I'm kinda scared of that. I don't want her to be there for love purpose only. We had enough of that already. If they bring a new CSI/investigator, it better be a strong character. Maybe like Catherine from CSI.
You know, when I first read the spoiler about a character "dying and forever changing the NY family", I thought it was the producers listening to the fans and killing Lindsay to make Danny go bananas :lol: Because we surely asked for it repeatidly on the forums! I could totally like a Danny struggling with the loss of his wife and being a single father. It would give Carmine more material to work with than what he had for S5. But I don't know... two persons grieving the loss of a lover simultaneously... seems that it won't be Anna leaving the show. But like you mentionned, Lindsay is part-time so they will need back up.
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