Could Canon Slash Work?

[myfuturecsi]

Trouble is when I visited the Fort, the flirty looks that the Love fans claim are there, I don't see it. I don't really see any flirting between them.

So I really can't see the CSI writers for Vegas writing Nick and Greg as gay because they've clearly shown me that they are not gay. So to turn around and suddenly have them in a relationship is far too unbelievable.
It would be too OOC for them.

So no, I don't think it would work and after GSR, I really would rather not have any more canon relationships for now.

 

[seabird]

I disagree. Canon slash could work if it was written correctly. It doesn't have to be written in a way that takes over the show and causes a distraction just like heterosexual relationships don't have to be written that way. As far as subtext goes, just because one person doesn't see it or doesn't want to see it doesn't mean other people are wrong or making up something that couldn't potentially work on the show. If that's the case then ALL non canon shipping - including Nick/Mandy - should be stopped and we should all just be fans of what ships TPTB give us. Where's the fun in that?

The only way for canon slash to be accepted is for it to be written. Would there be people opposed to it? Yeah. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't or couldn't happen. Gay people exist and have romantic relationships and are a functioning part of society and I don't think network TV should ignore that just because it makes some viewers uncomfortable.

VERY WELL SAID! :thumbsup:

Yes, canon slash could work, definitely, if it's handled correctly. It wouldn't need to be the focus on the show, just let dropping little hints here and there.....

It would be a great idea if the writers tried it on because, in real life, there are same sex couples and the lack of gay characters on CSI (others than victims or murderers) start to get unrealistic and discriminatory.

Could the writers mess it up? Of course they can, but we'll never know if they don't try FIRST.

Danny/Flack in N.Y and of course, Nick/Greg in Las Vegas could be incredible canon couples. They've already laid the groundwork with the Nick/Greg pairing; their flirting, their eyesex, checking each other's behind, Nick's awkwardness around women, his obliviouness when some female flirts with him (and he never flirts back ).....It could be an interesting and UNUSUAL story line.

Society is changing and becoming more progressive and although there are still intolerant people, it is changing little by little. The success of movies like "Brokeback Mountain" and TV shows like "Torchwood", where the main ship is a gay couple, gives me hope that one day, things will change for the better.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Trouble is when I visited the Fort, the flirty looks that the Love fans claim are there, I don't see it. I don't really see any flirting between them.

So I really can't see the CSI writers for Vegas writing Nick and Greg as gay because they've clearly shown me that they are not gay. So to turn around and suddenly have them in a relationship is far too unbelievable.
It would be too OOC for them.

So no, I don't think it would work and after GSR, I really would rather not have any more canon relationships for now.

That's a completely different issue altogether. You may not see anything between Nick and Greg, but that doesn't really have anything to do with if canon slash as a whole would/could work. I personally don't see anything between Danny and Lindsay on NY, but TPTB still went there and I don't see why they couldn't go there with two male characters and have it work.

 

[Faylinn]

I agree that the shows would end up taking it the obvious, cliche, look-at-us-we're-so-edgy route. That shouldn't stop them, but it does make someone like me a bit more hesitant about the whole thing because I'm just not sure they could do it with the proper amount of subtlety - if they lack subtlety with the heterosexual couples, who knows how much they'd grind the gears with a gay couple?

However, that being said - as candygirl1uk said upthread, people don't always know from the time they're young that they're gay. Sometimes it takes them a while to figure it out. For every young person who knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're gay, there is surely an older person who isn't even sure what they think. And besides, the world isn't divided into gay and straight with no in-between. There are people who are bisexual, there are people who identify as straight or gay but are open to other types of relationships, etc. Having, say, Adam on CSI:NY flirt openly with Kendall and perhaps have a crush on Stella (or talk about dating a Suicide Girl) does not preclude the idea that he could have fooled around with a guy in college or that he might date a guy while still flirting with a girl in the present. In this day and age, a lot of young people in particular push the boundaries of sexuality - and for a lot of us, sexuality isn't a big deal.

So basically, I think a young, open-minded type of character could be revealed as bisexual without too much to-do. Heck, look at "Bones" over on Fox - Angela was "straight" as far as I know, but they recently revealed that she had a relationship with a woman in the past, and she resumed that relationship in the present. My mother isn't a fan of the storyline, but I think they did alright with it from what I saw (not that I watch closely).

If it fits with the characterization to be open to it, why not? Canon slash could work.

 

[roximonoxide]

It wouldn't work because it would draw attention away from the point of the show and it's about the crime, the cases and the foresnics. Having a gay couple would distract from the show.

Why would a gay couple distract any more from the show than straight couples do? That's a pretty unfair-- and strange-- accusation to make that somehow homosexuals usurp attention, or screentime or something. I think a lot of people are saying, there have been low key heterosexual relationships on the show and if they can pull that off then its about time they try to write a homosexual couple the same way; that is tactfully and low key.

I'd address your remarks about what you see between certain characters like Nick and Greg but I think Perfect Anomaly said it perfectly already:

That's a completely different issue altogether. You may not see anything between Nick and Greg, but that doesn't really have anything to do with if canon slash as a whole would/could work. I personally don't see anything between Danny and Lindsay on NY, but TPTB still went there and I don't see why they couldn't go there with two male characters and have it work.

This isn't a debate about which characters slashers think are gay and whatever proof they may or may not have of that. We're just talking about whether or not it could be dealt with legitimately.

We see what we want to see because that's what we want, and it's completely different from what the writers want. What may look like flirting to one viewer, looks like nothing to another.

I think that fact that slashers, as a fan group, exist says something about the need for more openly homosexual characters in mainstream media and not the kind we get from shows like Will & Grace. While you are obviously very content with the kinds of characters you're presented with that's great news for you, but what about the legions of fans who never see a part of themselves represented on the screen unless its through a swishy stereotype or an deranged killer. The fact that fans "slash" suggests we're appropriating this media to fit our views, values and psycho-graphics, and slashers- among others- can't help but feel like perhaps TPTB could do something to acknowledge our existence after all the time and money and fan-ship we give to them.

 

[Ceindreadh]

Why would a gay couple distract any more from the show than straight couples do? That's a pretty unfair-- and strange-- accusation to make that somehow homosexuals usurp attention, or screentime or something

For starters because there'd be the usual outcry from the homophobes the "OMG these people are ruining our lives by appearing on screen"
For seconds, because there's so few same sex couples on screen that any gay relationship is going to attract more attention than a mixed sex one. Of course the solution to that is to have more gay couples/characters.
UK tv is pretty good in that respect nowadays.

 

[myfuturecsi]

I think that fact that slashers, as a fan group, exist says something about the need for more openly homosexual characters in mainstream media and not the kind we get from shows like Will & Grace. While you are obviously very content with the kinds of characters you're presented with that's great news for you, but what about the legions of fans who never see a part of themselves represented on the screen unless its through a swishy stereotype or an deranged killer. The fact that fans "slash" suggests we're appropriating this media to fit our views, values and psycho-graphics, and slashers- among others- can't help but feel like perhaps TPTB could do something to acknowledge our existence after all the time and money and fan-ship we give to them

I certainly understand the under reprsentation of gay couples in mainstream media and I agree, but at this stage of the game, I would rather the status quo on CSI Vegas because I do not see Nick or Greg as gay, and I don't think at this stage suddenly turning two guys who are hetrosexual to a couple is bit too OCC.

Perhaps had they done so early on in the show, it might have worked for me, but now I can't see it.

And as for it being distracting, I found GSR distracting so I would find a slash canon couple distracting as well.

I like my ships off screen and in fan fiction, and there they should stay. That doesn't make me a homophobe.

If my ship became canon, I'd be concerned as well about it turning CSI into a soap opera.

 

[roximonoxide]

For starters because there'd be the usual outcry from the homophobes the "OMG these people are ruining our lives by appearing on screen"
For seconds, because there's so few same sex couples on screen that any gay relationship is going to attract more attention than a mixed sex one. Of course the solution to that is to have more gay couples/characters.
UK tv is pretty good in that respect nowadays.

I'm talking about within the diegesis, not necessarily the political outcry it might stir up, but if that's the kind of "attention" that was suggested would detract from the drama I don't think that claim is any more sound. Are you going to stop liking a show because ET has scandalous things to say about it? You know Dexter has been in the news a lot lately for being such a violent show that sides with the killer. Has this journalistic coverage of it really bothered it's dedicated fans? Or are you suggesting you don't want people watching it just for that element of the show? In which case I have to wonder why that would bother you.

And yes, the only way to gain acceptance here is to include more realistic homosexual couples in primetime drama. What's the other option? Continue to lock them in the closet I suppose... personally, I'm not an advocate of trying to sweep people under the rug.

I certainly understand the under reprsentation of gay couples in mainstream media and I agree, but at this stage of the game, I would rather the status quo on CSI Vegas because I do not see Nick or Greg as gay, and I don't think at this stage suddenly turning two guys who are hetrosexual to a couple is bit too OCC.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't suggesting they just take two already developed characters and begin writing them as gay out of no where. I'm suggesting all this has every chance at working well if the characters are intentionally developed that way from the get go.

On the other hand, they've made stranger and more unexplained turns with some characters before, without providing us with a real reason, so in some cases I wouldn't be so surprised if they rewrote someones orientation...I don't think this argument is pushing for TPTB to rewrite some of their characters as gay for us. At least I haven't felt that way.

ETA: I think there are also very capable writers out there who've demonstrated very believable ways of writing a character as a growing/changing person. There are many people who don't discover themselves -so to speak- until very late in life and it's not an easy thing to accept in themselves. I think if they really wanted to strike a reality cord a story like that would ring true for a lot more people in the world than we tend to imagine.

Again, I don't think what you personally can and cannot see in a character's projected personality is any kind of evidence of their true orientation or something... but aside from that it's not homophobic to claim you'd just rather they kept all romance out of the show.

While I never actually made any claims about anyone's potential homophobia, if you say GSR annoyed you because it overpowered the rest of the drama it's unfair to say any gay characters or gay relationship would automatically do the same, SOLELY on the basis that it is not a heterosexual relationship. If a relationship portrayed on the show is written in a way you find overpowering, I doubt very much that it has anything to do with that couples orientation and more to do with that fact that maybe they're not your favorite characters, or that romance just isn't what you want to see in your crime dramas.

 

[seabird]

myfuturecsi, it's pretty obvious to everyone that you have started a personal cruzade against Nick/Greg...... You have referred before to this ship as "a joke"...... Once again, what you don't see (or don't want to see ) between Nick and Greg have nothing to do with this debate and I'm not the first person on this thread who has told you this:

It wouldn't work because it would draw attention away from the point of the show and it's about the crime, the cases and the foresnics. Having a gay couple would distract from the show.

Why would a gay couple distract any more from the show than straight couples do? That's a pretty unfair-- and strange-- accusation to make that somehow homosexuals usurp attention, or screentime or something. I think a lot of people are saying, there have been low key heterosexual relationships on the show and if they can pull that off then its about time they try to write a homosexual couple the same way; that is tactfully and low key.

I'd address your remarks about what you see between certain characters like Nick and Greg but I think Perfect Anomaly said it perfectly already:

That's a completely different issue altogether. You may not see anything between Nick and Greg, but that doesn't really have anything to do with if canon slash as a whole would/could work.

This isn't a debate about which characters slashers think are gay and whatever proof they may or may not have of that. We're just talking about whether or not it could be dealt with legitimately.

Get it?

It seems that times are definitely changing. In the new NBC cop show "Southland" that will fill the "ER" void, one of the male cops is gay. If a cop show can, why not CSI?

 

[myfuturecsi]

or that romance just isn't what you want to see in your crime dramas.

You hit the nail on the head, thank you for that and for respecting my opinion.

I'm not on a personal crusade against Nick and Greg, I use them as an example because I don't want the other shows and why not have opposing opinions on this thread? This thread would be boring if everyone came in here and said, "Yes it can work."

I think if for example Riley announced she was a lesbien, that would be fine with me, but if she went into a relationship with say, Wendy, then I'd have problem. I don't want CSI to turn into a soap opera. I really did not like GSR (and Grissom tied with Nick as my favourite character) and would like the show to focus on the crime element. There's a lot of drama that can be created wtihout romance. I'd like to know if Greg ever told his parents he became a CSI? I'd like to see more of the effects of being buried alive had on Nick? I'd like to see more scene with Brass and his daughter.

That's all.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

or that romance just isn't what you want to see in your crime dramas.

You hit the nail on the head, thank you for that and for respecting my opinion.

I'm not on a personal crusade against Nick and Greg, I use them as an example because I don't want the other shows and why not have opposing opinions on this thread? This thread would be boring if everyone came in here and said, "Yes it can work."

I think if for example Riley announced she was a lesbien, that would be fine with me, but if she went into a relationship with say, Wendy, then I'd have problem. I don't want CSI to turn into a soap opera. I really did not like GSR (and Grissom tied with Nick as my favourite character) and would like the show to focus on the crime element. There's a lot of drama that can be created wtihout romance. I'd like to know if Greg ever told his parents he became a CSI? I'd like to see more of the effects of being buried alive had on Nick? I'd like to see more scene with Brass and his daughter.

That's all.

That's fine, but again, not wanting to see relationships between the regular characters is not at all the same issue as "could canon slash work?"

I also agree with the others who have said that just because they've only shown characters with/talking about the opposite sex in a romantic way doesn't automatically make them straight. An established character could easily be written as bisexual or just coming to terms with their sexuality and it could be done realistically.

 

[seabird]

I'm not on a personal crusade against Nick and Greg.
I don't want CSI to turn into a soap opera. I really did not like GSR (and Grissom tied with Nick as my favourite character) and would like the show to focus on the crime element. There's a lot of drama that can be created wtihout romance. I'd like to know if Greg ever told his parents he became a CSI? I'd like to see more of the effects of being buried alive had on Nick? I'd like to see more scene with Brass and his daughter.

Really? You really don't want to see more romance? Because this is what you have just posted on the spoiler thread:

posted by myfuturecsi: "Awww poor Catherine watching them take Grissom's things away. She looks so sad. She needs a huge! Maybe Nick will give her one :devil:

http://talk.csifiles.com/showthread.php?t=57738&page=9

And yes, you have started a personal cruzade against Nick/Greg and I'm not the only one who is bothered by your continuos remarks against this ship. On the thread "What's one thing you wish hadn't happened in CSI ?" you said that "you wish that the QUASI-flirt scenes between Nick and Greg, were never included and that you hoped "that writer has since been fired"

Here's the link to your post:

http://talk.csifiles.com/showthread.php?t=56721&page=8

After reading your comment about Cath and Nick and seeing that you have a link to Nick/Mandy fics on your signature, after you've called Nick/Greg "a joke" and after reading that you wish that writer who wrote the flirting scenes between Nick and Greg has been fired, it's pretty safe to think that you wouldn't have troubles with the romance on this show, as long as it's a hetero romance.

Sorry for the rant and for going OT, but I think there are some things that need to be said.

 

[myfuturecsi]

I just want to remind the above poster, these are fictional characters and if the writers want them to be into each other, and want to write two male characters into each other, go for it. I have no control over them, I had no control over the writers writing GSR, but it was a small part of the show and I dealt with it.

And well, we all have different opinions, obvious if I don't agree, I get told off. It's unfortunate that we can't have different opinions. I guess if I had said, yes it can work, I wouldn't be flamed as much. Oh well.

 

[kinkapoodles]

Ok guys, it's getting a little heated in here. Without naming names or quoting people I will say there are some problems in this thread.

Like many have already said, this thread is for debate of 'Could Slash Canon Work'. It is not a debate about where this couple or that couple is gay. That's NOT the point of this thread. It's a general question of whether the writers could pull off writing a slash couple into the CSI shows.

I have no problem with using couples as examples when explaining if canon slash could work but talk about whether anyone thinks a certain couple is gay or not has no business in this thread. There is a thread where this type of discussion is open to debate and that is the Great Ship Debate - CSI: Crime Scene Investigation thread. Please take your opinions of individual Vegas ships to this thread. There are also threads for Miami and NY.

Please do not bring discussions (or links) from other threads from this forum or other forums on the board into this thread. What is said in other threads is not relevant in this thread. Many people like ships but that doesn't mean they want them on the show (me, for example). Also, not everybody has to like every ship and they do have the right to express those opinions as long as nobody is being attacked. This thread, however, is not the place for that.

eta: NOBODY has been flamed in this thread although a few of you are walking a very thin line.

So please, let's get back to the discussion of 'Could Canon Slash Work'. thanks

 

[seabird]

I just want to remind the above poster, these are fictional characters and if the writers want them to be into each other, and want to write two male characters into each other, go for it. I have no control over them, I had no control over the writers writing GSR, but it was a small part of the show and I dealt with it.

And well, we all have different opinions, obvious if I don't agree, I get told off. It's unfortunate that we can't have different opinions. I guess if I had said, yes it can work, I wouldn't be flamed as much. Oh well.

I'm not flaming you. I'm just remembering what have you posted about Nick/Greg. You came into The Fort and told one of the posters in a very rude way, that she had misquoted you.