Character Development/Screentime Discussion

[byline]

It's a mixed bag, on the rightnesss or wrongness of what happened.

I'm pretty sure that law enforcement officers breaking the law is wrong.

True. But I think what Desertwind was referring to was, how far in the "wrong" does one go to seek justice for a greater wrong (also bearing in mind that law often does not equal justice)? After all, slavery is morally wrong. It was also once legal.

Now, I don't mean to equate those things, or imply that what I think Ray did was right. It's more that I think, in that situation, his actions could be understandable. However, I also think that he must be held accountable for those actions. It can't be another slap on the wrist (which his past actions in crossing the line have received). Going by what Ray recalled to Brass, he murdered Haskell. And the legal consequences of that are severe. Even if it never comes out that he murdered Haskell, there is enough suspicion to warrant some sort of professional reprimand, especially for someone whose job it is to uphold the law.

 

[Desertwind]

Thank's byline exactly. Now lets say they have Tracee [Gloria] on again, and she testifies, [if it goes that far] on what Haskell did to her, wouldn't that give anyone on this earth the right to do what Ray did? How would one know how they'd react if a loved one were tortured, so horrifically. The point here is [to me] if the whole team is in on this then there as guilty as Ray is, my thinking~

 

[vegaslights]

Thank's byline exactly. Now lets say they have Tracee [Gloria] on again, and she testifies, [if it goes that far] on what Haskell did to her, wouldn't that give anyone on this earth the right to do what Ray did? How would one know how they'd react if a loved one were tortured, so horrifically. The point here is [to me] if the whole team is in on this then there as guilty as Ray is, my thinking~

If it does go that far? I'm jumping ship. There's no reason at all for this storyline to continue next season, aside from the resolution to the IAB investigation. Stop beating the dead horse and get back to the forensic-driven plots.

 

[PraetorCorvinus]

If it does go that far? I'm jumping ship. There's no reason at all for this storyline to continue next season, aside from the resolution to the IAB investigation. Stop beating the dead horse and get back to the forensic-driven plots.

Since when has this show been about forensics?

I do agree that they really need to bury this plot. IMO, it's stunted Ray's character development.

 

[DJRideout]

Now lets say they have Tracee [Gloria] on again, and she testifies, [if it goes that far] on what Haskell did to her, wouldn't that give anyone on this earth the right to do what Ray did?

Legally??? No! It was not up to Ray to decide Haskell's fate no matter how bad the guy was. It is up to the judicial system. Emotionally??? Well that is a little different...depending on the mental state of the person in question, but still inexcusable. They would still have to suffer the consequences of their actions regardless. And if they are that mentally unstable and the line between right and wrong is erased by emotion, then a psychiatric evaluation would be in order.

 

[Speedystokesgirl]

Now lets say they have Tracee [Gloria] on again, and she testifies, [if it goes that far] on what Haskell did to her, wouldn't that give anyone on this earth the right to do what Ray did?

Legally??? No! It was not up to Ray to decide Haskell's fate no matter how bad the guy was. It is up to the judicial system. Emotionally??? Well that is a little different...depending on the mental state of the person in question, but still inexcusable. They would still have to suffer the consequences of their actions regardless. And if they are that mentally unstable and the line between right and wrong is erased by emotion, then a psychiatric evaluation would be in order.

Exactly DJ, it was not up for him to decide. Would a jury let him go, probably, but it still doesn't make it right.

He didn't put Brass in any position Brass did that all on his own as he's done in the past. Who handed in the "self defense" report to IA, UH, I think it was Catherine, who's in charge, and the whole team if found out would be in jeopardy and would show they all have little intregrity. They're all in on this fisaco. And we don't know yet what Ray's going to say to IANO matter what way one slices this, the team likes Ray. That's what TPTB have presented to the fans. It's a mixed bag, on the rightnesss or wrongness of what happened. Fans are welcome to contact the writers and give their opinion of this show and the whys and wherefores~

You're right, Brass picked up the cuffs on his own accord, but I certainly DID NOT hear Ray say to him it's wrong and put the cuffs back down. Ray put him in that position by cutting those cuffs off. That never should have happened. Ray put them all in a bad position. He should have had the cops bring Haskell in.

As for Catherine, she SUSPECTED that is what happened, but without the cuffs she has no evidence to the contrary so she signed off.

Really, you need to look at Ray a little more objectively because in your mind he can do no wrong. And there just isn't a person out there like that.

I'm sorry if perfect Ray isn't so perfect.

 

[Desertwind]

I NEVER said Ray was perfect some construed what they want to for whatever reason. I've said over and over he did commit murder and does have a violent streak which is scary. I do like this actor LF as Ray that's for sure, but according to your moniker you're a Nick fan, which is great, but he's also not perfect. What person on the team hasn't done something suspect at one time or another, for whatever reason? I do however think everyone should be respectable to any fan who like whoever they want to, and not try to find issue with that A matter of taste has nothing what-so-ever to do with someone else. I see that on the "character development" Ray has showed many different sides to his personailty, this last one being really really bad, so he'll have to deal with the aftermath of this. In the end Nate won on this situation~

 

[byline]

Now lets say they have Tracee [Gloria] on again, and she testifies, [if it goes that far] on what Haskell did to her, wouldn't that give anyone on this earth the right to do what Ray did?

Legally??? No! It was not up to Ray to decide Haskell's fate no matter how bad the guy was. It is up to the judicial system. Emotionally??? Well that is a little different...depending on the mental state of the person in question, but still inexcusable. They would still have to suffer the consequences of their actions regardless. And if they are that mentally unstable and the line between right and wrong is erased by emotion, then a psychiatric evaluation would be in order.

I agree with this. If Ray is to stay on as a CSI, then at the very least he's going to have to undergo some sort of assessment to evaluate whether he has the mental fitness to continue. And even if it's never legally determined that he committed murder, I have to believe that suspicions are strong enough to warrant him being suspended for a period of time.

 

[Speedystokesgirl]

I NEVER said Ray was perfect some construed what they want to for whatever reason. I've said over and over he did commit murder and does have a violent streak which is scary. I do like this actor LF as Ray that's for sure, but according to your moniker you're a Nick fan, which is great, but he's also not perfect. What person on the team hasn't done something suspect at one time or another, for whatever reason? I do however think everyone should be respectable to any fan who like whoever they want to, and not try to find issue with that A matter of taste has nothing what-so-ever to do with someone else. I see that on the "character development" Ray has showed many different sides to his personailty, this last one being really really bad, so he'll have to deal with the aftermath of this. In the end Nate won on this situation~

I know Nick is not perfect and I have never claimed or acted that he is. However, no one else on the team has committed murder.

The only other team member that comitted a crime was Sara and her DUI. Another instance where the CSI got off.

 

[Desertwind]

Nick killed the Beebs, that was murder, & also his brother, the circumstances were right, on him & his sibling and the confrontations, but he still could have show them in the leg or arm and disabled both. All things considered I think the fans were pleased with this action, but never-the-less he did kill them. Everyone and everything has a motive or a WHY, on the show, that's the beauty of CSI:thumbsup:always a mystery. Nick also refused counseling for his own reasons, if he didn't want to then so be it

 

[PraetorCorvinus]

Nick killed the Beebs, that was murder, & also his brother, the circumstances were right, on him & his sibling and the confrontations, but he still could have show them in the leg or arm and disabled both. All things considered I think the fans were pleased with this action, but never-the-less he did kill them. Everyone and everything has a motive or a WHY, on the show, that's the beauty of CSI:thumbsup:always a mystery. Nick also refused counseling for his own reasons, if he didn't want to then so be it

Actually while Nick did kill Bieber, he didn't murder him or his brother. Murder is defined by Merriam-Webster as "the crime of unlawfully killing a person, especially with malice aforethought". Nick actions were well within the boundaries of the law.

 

[Speedystokesgirl]

Nick killed the Beebs, that was murder, & also his brother, the circumstances were right, on him & his sibling and the confrontations, but he still could have show them in the leg or arm and disabled both. All things considered I think the fans were pleased with this action, but never-the-less he did kill them. Everyone and everything has a motive or a WHY, on the show, that's the beauty of CSI:thumbsup:always a mystery. Nick also refused counseling for his own reasons, if he didn't want to then so be it

Nick killed in the line-of-duty it was a justifiable homicide. Big difference than what Ray did; his started of as self-defense and then ended up murder.

Now did Haskell deserve it, sure, however Ray did not kill in the line-of-duty and in the eyes of law it wasn't justifiable.

Haskell was sick, evil man, no doubt about that and if this was real life, I'd be happy he was dead. Which is why I don't think a jury would convict Ray, but he should lose his job.

However, without the cuffs that won't happen unless Ray confesses.

 

[sharp52092]

Nick killed the Beebs, that was murder, & also his brother, the circumstances were right, on him & his sibling and the confrontations, but he still could have show them in the leg or arm and disabled both. All things considered I think the fans were pleased with this action, but never-the-less he did kill them. Everyone and everything has a motive or a WHY, on the show, that's the beauty of CSI:thumbsup:always a mystery. Nick also refused counseling for his own reasons, if he didn't want to then so be it

Oh good grief Desertwind, Nick killed Jason (Bieber) and his brother in SELF DEFENSE, both brothers were getting out their guns and about to shoot Nick or someone else, what was Nick supposed to do? Stand by and watch and get shot

I'm sorry but you have to face it Ray killed Haskell and it was MURDER, Ray had Haskell cuffed, Haskell had NO weapon on him at the time and was no longer a threat, Ray snapped after what Haskell said about Gloria and threw him off the balcony AND IT WAS MURDER

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Nick killed the Beebs, that was murder, & also his brother, the circumstances were right, on him & his sibling and the confrontations, but he still could have show them in the leg or arm and disabled both. All things considered I think the fans were pleased with this action, but never-the-less he did kill them. Everyone and everything has a motive or a WHY, on the show, that's the beauty of CSI:thumbsup:always a mystery. Nick also refused counseling for his own reasons, if he didn't want to then so be it

Wasn't what Nick did clear cut self defense, or am I forgetting something? People in law enforcement are taught to shoot to kill where there is immenent threat. Ray killed a dude who was already subduded and posed no immenent threat so he killed in cold blood. HUGE difference between self defence and flat out murder.

 

[Desertwind]

OH good grief, it was still murder, everyone has a reason why they do things, right or wrong. The Jason was a little evil doer, so was Haskell. Why did Cath turn in her report that is was "self defense"? And Haskell still had a gun, this could go on and on regardless, we will find out what happens in S/12, and who gets thrashed and suspended or whatever. I'm not ragging on Nick I cheered when he did this but to say he's never killed anyone that's not true