Character Development/Screentime Discussion

Desertwind said:
OH good grief, it was still murder, everyone has a reason why they do things, right or wrong. The Jason was a little evil doer, so was Haskell. Why did Cath turn in her report that is was "self defense"? And Haskell still had a gun, this could go on and on regardless, we will find out what happens in S/12, and who gets thrashed and suspended or whatever. I'm not ragging on Nick I cheered when he did this but to say he's never killed anyone that's not true:confused:
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It was not murder. Again, the definition of murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice

This is NOT what Nick did. It was not murder. Catherine has shot and killed two (Beebs brother too) that was not murder.
 
What Nick did was justifiable homicide, NOT murder. Just like Ray at the end of season 9. They killed an armed suspect who was actively aiming a weapon at them or someone else, and was not already subdued. Once Ray had subdued Haskell it became murder, because Haskell was no longer a threat.
 
But Ray didn't have Haskell subdued, he got free of his restraints, and was still threatning Ray and would have killed him, but he got him first, plus what he'd done to Gloria, justifiable is subject to interpretation, and the circumstances surrounding the event at the time, and he might have escaped again, wouldn't that have been wonderful?
 
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Desertwind said:
OH good grief, it was still murder, everyone has a reason why they do things, right or wrong. The Jason was a little evil doer, so was Haskell. Why did Cath turn in her report that is was "self defense"? And Haskell still had a gun, this could go on and on regardless, we will find out what happens in S/12, and who gets thrashed and suspended or whatever. I'm not ragging on Nick I cheered when he did this but to say he's never killed anyone that's not true:confused:
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DW self defense and murder are two different things

Self defense- the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant; a claim or plea that the use of force or injuring or killing another was necessary in defending one's own person from physical attack

Murder- the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime

Catherine said self defense because she feels torn about what to do and the cuff wasn't found at the scene, though I think they could make a case without the cuff

And Haskell did NOT have a gun anymore after Ray put the cuffs on, yes he could have tried to physically attack Ray again but he did not when Ray killed him
 
"A homicide can only be justified if there is evidence to suggest that it was reasonable to believe that the offending party posed an imminent threat to the life or wellbeing of another."

Haskell was no longer a threat, once he was cuffed. He didn't "get free" - Ray cut him loose in order to beat him some more and kill him.

As for "he might have escaped again" - well, my next door neighbor "might" go on a killing spree next month, so does that mean I would be justified in killing him? :rolleyes:
 
Desertwind said:
But Ray didn't have Haskell subdued, he got free of his restraints, and was still threatning Ray and would have killed him, but he got him first, plus what he'd done to Gloria, justifiable is subject to interpretation, and the circumstances surrounding the event at the time, and he might have escaped again, wouldn't that have been wonderful?
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I think my heart is going to pop. Or my head.

Haskell did not "get free of his restraints". Ray cut them off of him.

Haskell did not continue to "threaten" Ray nor would he have "killed him". Ray had the upper hand, beat the living crap out of him, lifted him up off of his feet and threw him over a balcony.

And for heaven's sake...no other CSI has ever murdered anyone.
 
Haskell did not *get free* of his restraints, Ray cut them off!!
That is where the problem lies.

Every person who Nick killed was armed, and in a position to shoot back, both McCann brothers and Jekyll.

In my earlier post, I wasn't referring to Ray liking Nick, I know he likes everyone. I was referring to Ray actually having their backs, as in saving their lives or bailing them out of trouble. Seems like it's always been Ray who's had to be *saved*.

ETA:
Smokey, don't pop, you're too important around here! Just think of all the spam you've been removing lately. :lol:
 
Well sorry I guess I imagined that Nick killed two people, was it justifiable? of course as stated earlier he could have disabled them. If someone broke into my house would it be justifiable to kill them or should wait till they kill me? I realize Ray killed Haskell, I watched this it too, but under what circumstances? Did anyone mourn his death? So he should face what ever he deserves, depending on what his answer will be next season. Now I read [on another fan-site] that it's possible that Gloria is pregnant with Haskells child EWWW. Fans have different takes on everything and don't get upset if someone doens't see things the same way. It's the name of the game, different opinions.:confused:
 
Desertwind said:
Well sorry I guess I imagined that Nick killed two people, was it justifiable? of course as stated earlier he could have disabled them. If someone broke into my house would it be justifiable to kill them or should wait till they kill me? I realize Ray killed Haskell, I watched this it too, but under what circumstances? Did anyone mourn his death? So he should face what ever he deserves, depending on what his answer will be next season. Now I read [on another fan-site] that it's possible that Gloria is pregnant with Haskells child EWWW. Fans have different takes on everything and don't get upset if someone doens't see things the same way. It's the name of the game, different opinions.:confused:
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Those two people had guns and were going to shoot others, yes it was justifiable. And how was Nick going to disable those two when the guns were pointing at them? He was just suppose to walk up to them and take the guns as they're shooting him? :wtf::wtf::wtf:

If Nick had subdued them, he wouldn't have then murdered them. :rolleyes:

Do you not get that killing someone that is justified is NOT THE SAME as murder?

Ray murdered Haskell, plain and simple. It was not justified. Ray is not Judge and Jury and cannot decide Haskells fate.

Having another opinion is not what upsets people, it's when people don't seem to know the difference between a justifiable kill and murder.

Yes, Nick killed three people, he DID NOT MURDER THEM. Ray killed Haskell, but he MURDERED him and by murdering Haskell he destroyed everything this team built up. He put Brass in a situation he shouldn't have been in. I can understand why Ray did it, still DOESN'T make it right.

Man, I give up. Fantasy worlds. :rolleyes:
 
Desertwind said:
Well sorry I guess I imagined that Nick killed two people, was it justifiable? of course as stated earlier he could have disabled them. If someone broke into my house would it be justifiable to kill them or should wait till they kill me? I realize Ray killed Haskell, I watched this it too, but under what circumstances? Did anyone mourn his death? So he should face what ever he deserves, depending on what his answer will be next season. Now I read [on another fan-site] that it's possible that Gloria is pregnant with Haskells child EWWW. Fans have different takes on everything and don't get upset if someone doens't see things the same way. It's the name of the game, different opinions.:confused:
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This isn't a case of "different opinions," this is a case of one person not comprehending the definitions of "self defense" and "murder." Yes, both instances end up with a dead person, but they are NOT remotely the same thing. Self defense is when you have to protect yourself from being killed (i.e. a perp draws his weapon and is obviously going to kill you if you don't shoot first.) Murder is when there is no threat of further harm and you still choose to kill a person. (i.e. the perp is subdued and cuffed, but then you uncuff him and kill him anyway.) It doesn't matter if anyone cares if the dude that was killed is dead or what terrible things he did before he was subdued. You let the legal process determine guilt and punishment. No one gets to play judge, jury and executioner. Not even the most fabulous, awesomest, perfectest person in the world.
 
Desertwind said:
Well sorry I guess I imagined that Nick killed two people, was it justifiable? of course as stated earlier he could have disabled them. If someone broke into my house would it be justifiable to kill them or should wait till they kill me? I realize Ray killed Haskell, I watched this it too, but under what circumstances? Did anyone mourn his death? So he should face what ever he deserves, depending on what his answer will be next season. Now I read [on another fan-site] that it's possible that Gloria is pregnant with Haskells child EWWW. Fans have different takes on everything and don't get upset if someone doens't see things the same way. It's the name of the game, different opinions.:confused:
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I'm not sure what mourning has to do with anything, what do you mean? People mourning Haskell, maybe if he has any brides left, he probably killed all of them or they killed each other and he probably has crazed fans still out there, murder attracts people

Nick killed people yes, Jason (Bieber) and his brother and yes justifiable and self defense because the boys were about to shoot Nick and other people, IF Nick had fired when the boys were NOT reaching to fire their guns then it would be murder

Yes if someone broke into your house you have a right to shoot them, it's called SELF DEFENSE, like what happened with Nick (and several other CSIs), shoot the person or they'll shoot you

Ray killed Haskell, AND deny it all you want but IT WAS MURDER!!! Ray wasn't defending himself when he killed Haskell, now when Haskell had the gun earlier it was self defense, but then Ray was able to put the cuffs on Haskell, Haskell was NO longer a threat, he had no weapon and he wasn't physically attacking Ray, Gloria, or anyone else, then Ray was no longer acting in self defense, throwing a person (even if they are very bad) who is no longer a threat and throwing them off a balcony to their death is NOT SELF DEFENSE

And this is NOT about OPINIONS, this is about the facts and truth! But fight it all you want, Ray seems to do no wrong in your eyes
 
I know Ray is a murderer, I saw the episode and realize he was completeley out of line and his rage and anger took him over, please give me some credit. I don't think he's perfect he's got the same gene as Haskell. I hope he gets just punishment as he should, if he cops up to his crime and the rest of them as well, and they put him away for his horrendous crime, and maybe strip them of their badges, or their positions cause they all know what happened not just Brass, or whatever is justice. I meant on mourn the "fans" who watch the show, did anyone say "Oh darn he's dead poor guy"? I as well want this to be over, and was getting sick of it too:(
 
A few random ideas and wishes for Season 12, it never hurts to wish

I'd like to see an episode like Turn Turn Turn that takes place over a period of time

Also like to see one based around a song like the ep Leave Out All the Rest

Love to see Warrick's son Eli, though not in any danger, have scenes with the team, especially Nick, Griss, and Catherine

Love to see Greg get another ep or storyline this next season, also like to see him continue to get good screentime like this last season

Catherine gets a good exit, THAT'S A MUST!!!

Like to see Lindsey again, I don't think we even heard about her in s11

NO NEW SERIAL KILLERS!!! :scream: I'm serial killered out PERIOD

I WANT WENDY BACK!!! I keep hoping and praying for see her again :angel:

More Vartllows :)

More lab rats, I'd like to Hodges in the lab a bit more and doing trace and such, not out in the filed all the time (I don't mind once in awhile) or doing all the different jobs in the lab

I'd really like to see Greg's place and even Hodges new place since he finally moved out of Mom's
 
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