Season 7 Spoiler Discussion - Welcome back to the Big Apple!

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Faylinn, Jul 21, 2010.

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  1. Andromeda

    Andromeda Police Officer

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    A little rivalry between Mac and Jo, at least in the beginning, sounds good and makes sense, because after all they still don´t know each other very well, and Mac as the Alpha male might be a bit wary that she could be an intruder into his territory. In any way their professional partnership should be completely different than that of Mac and Stella, and Jo should be a completely different person compared to Stella.
    I agree, maybe it would have been better to wait for a while with bringing in a new character, but probably TPTB thought with NY in crisis, it´s better to bring in a big name straight after MK´s departure.
     
  2. JoeyDC

    JoeyDC Rookie

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    No, he's still entertaining as long as he has no story lines with Lindsay. His character was much more intense and interesting in the beginning though. He had this typical tough New Yorker attitude that seems to fade more and more the longer he's stuck with that country girl and plays the loving husband. That's why I particularly love Danny/Flack scenes. That's when his character shines the most, because both harmonize just so well with each other and act like typical guys.
     
  3. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I don't actually feel like Jo's completely orignal and fresh, just from the description. Yeah, depending on how it's done it could easily turn into a clone of Mac and Stella's occasional arguments. But see, butting heads with an equal/superior or playfully teasing the lab techs is something I really like in Stella's character. And while I agree they should've waited a bit to fill Stella's position, and I'd want Jo to be her own person rather than "Stella's replacement", those dynamics aren't really something I'd want to see disappear from the show just because Stella herself isn't there anymore.

    I've never been able to see Langston and Grissom as being similar, but I see your point -- especially in S9, they probably were trying to write him as Grissom the Sequel. Thing is, I'd probably take Grissom over him any day but I do think Langston comes across as a rounded character in his own right. One who knows he's not Grissom, and doesn't even try to be, which makes him more interesting individually -- to be honest, I'm hoping it plays out similarly on NY with Sela Ward's character. I credit LF a lot for not making Langston a Grissom copy, and have no reason to assume SW wouldn't be able to do the same. The fact that Stella and Jo share a few traits and/or dynamics doesn't have to mean they'll be carbon copies of each other -- traits are shared a lot between characters of these 3 shows, but they all still come off as individuals despite it.


    Wildly guessing here, that maybe they don't think she's a weak or boring character?

    Given that there have been requests for Lindsay to get a storyline, yeah, I think they pay attention to the feedback. What'd be ridiculous is assuming one type of feedback speaks for the entire fanbase. They have to know by now they can't please everyone, but it is about time storylines started getting rotated more evenly among these characters.
     
  4. PerfectAnomaly

    PerfectAnomaly Resident Smart Ass

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    With Lindsay, I interpret TPTB not giving her a story line that didn't heavily involve Danny as saying a lot about their confidence in Anna's ability as an actress and Lindsay's appeal as a character. If they had confidence she would've been developed outside of Danny. She wasn't at all. Maybe this story line will be about her instead of DL, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Danny has a big part in it. Of course now they can use the excuse that they're married so anything that has an impact on her is going to have an impact on him. ;)
     
  5. Elwood21

    Elwood21 Pathologist

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    Danger Magnet, Gotham's Anti-Hero :lol: He surely does have a knack.

    But yes. I can understand why Lindsay, or anyone, would have issues, present tense and without even having to reference her Dark Sekrit. I hope Danny isn't just glossed over while Lindsay enters the dark side. No guilt about Casey targeting them, nor about Lindsay covering for him with the badge etc., nor for the circumstances wherein his wife had to shoot a psycho who happened to be holding their child inside their own home. Oh no. I'm sure Danny's absolutely unaffected and perfectly fine :p.

    -

    Yes, the show has to address and wrap up the Shane Casey Cliff-hanger in some way or ways. I'm just factoring in some observations/frustrations of the show and what's just my own personal taste.

    Danny's injury storyline was seriously shortchanged. If Lindsay somehow winds up deriving more pithy material from his injury than he did by having it additionally factor into the current drama, well, :vulcan: #1.

    If Lindsay somehow winds up deriving more material from a shooting we never saw and has it drawn out and mined longer than Danny was alloted for eps recovering from his 10% odds, then that's :shifty::vulcan: #2.

    This on top of the fact that, Danny's involvement in the entirety of the Casey arc was seemingly to be peripheral prey. For something that was about him, it sure didn't seem to be a helluvalot about him. The gunshot fade to black now makes that whole arc more about Lindsay than Danny. That makes :shifty::vulcan::brickwall: #3.

    I didn't enjoy the finale. Thought it was one of the weakest concoctions from the past 6 seasons. It was overly laden with DL as a pretense and not complemented by a truly decent case. MK is gone, and the premiere won't likely see much time given to address her departure; and yet, Lindsay is still there, and further, could be featuring in the season opener with Stormy Medal Drama. If Stella's exit is given but a passing nod while a substantial part of the ep weights the balance toward Lindsay Issuez, well, that would be :wtf::brickwall: #4.

    If an actress of Sela Ward's caliber is given next to nothing to play and little to do, if the introduction of a new supervisor and main character is set behind AB playing Lindsay Issuez, call that :rolleyes::wtf::censored: #5.

    I don't begrudge that Lindsay is getting material. Every character should get sumthin. She's just not my favorite usage of screentime. We'll see how it all plays out. Mebbe I'll be pleasantly surprised. I may not enjoy her onscreen, but she's part of the show and I'll watch it. But. If that material is over-weighted, while the follow thru with regards to Danny (who went thru it all with her and who was a hub for the plot) is disregarded, if Stella's not given some due, if the introduction of a new character is overshadowed, or if the whole of the medal drama is generally poorly realized, then I'll be having issues wif Lindsay's Issuez.

    My gad. I really hope it isn't dragged out for too long :lol:. The last thing I want her S7 appearances characterized by is SullenDefiantlyWoundedAngstyAnger. My how screentime would crackle :p.

    My glass is half full for the season, but with respect to Lindsay Drama is admittedly poured from a bottle of sumthin a 'lil stronger to help wash it down :p. My comparative hope, my willy wonka golden ticket, my lottery pick, is that the character of Jo Washington proves to be someone I'd like to have a drink with, not because of :lol:. Just my take. As always, ymmv.

    This would probably make me wanna shoot somebody else. Would turn into a vicious cycle :lol:.

    I do too. I like to see, well, perhaps not necessarily a crisis of faith in what they're doing, but an evaluation of the effect they think they're having versus the toll suffered for it, and also for how its viewed or used by others. I think that's why I also kinda like the idea that the Mayor/DA/Chief whomeveryada, might use the Casey incident to score points while recognition of the cost was essentially used and then cast aside once the camera lights were off.

    "Our deepest thanks and profound gratitude to Detective Montrose, so glad little Louis is well, what? - that Lucy is well, *extended pose held recieving award & shaking hands* we are all committed to keeping our city safe and this is proof of the effectiveness of our tenure in office, you'll excuse me I must be going." Wouldn't take away from deserving a medal, but would add yet another element into how one might feel about it.

    Meh. I suppose I'm just imagining ways it might be more palatable as a storyline for me :lol:.

    Saying "I think the Lindsay stuff is the aftermath here" (which admittedly shoulda had a wee emoticon thingy after :lol:) and "what does it mean if ya peel back layers and find nothing there" was another instance of me being perhaps overly flippant :p, as much to do with what the show has (or hasn't) done for her as well as my own feelings on the character.

    I do agree that no one would delight in being forced to attend counseling in order to be permitted to continue to do one's job, and wouldn't just open up and pour out uber deep personal revelations. Of course, three months is also a long time to stonewall to the point nothing at all was gained or learned :lol:. You'd think a doc would also learn about a person thru how they avoid addressing issues, and which ones. Surely something could have been learned of Lindsay at some point in three months? :lol: Mebbe they need a better pshrink.

    I guess I'm going more by what could be taken as the various shows' "protocols" and less by what could be presumed as a Miami Dade Police or Vegas Police departmental protocol :lol:. Miami and Vegas have played to it more than NY has bothered with. I think part of me finds speculating about future possibilities more fun than filling in gaps with what could be reasonable and logical on the show's behalf where they couldn't be arsed to bother :lol:.

    The deaths of Angell, Warrick and Speedle were depicted onscreen (I think. ...were they all? Don't recall Speed). Meaning, the audience got hit by them as well as their colleagues. Counseling was another way to follow thru with material. NY has not seemed interested in using that as a method. Before now anyways. Counseling in those past instances (of Vegas and Miami) was team wide, and had to do with looking at the loss of a team member and how it impacted everyone. NY didn't go that route. But neither was Angell a central character.

    Mebbe Flack was mandated counseling for the warehouse shooting, especially if it was determined who he shot was responsible for Angell's death. Mebbe counseling stemmed from hitting rock bottom due a combo of the shooting and Angell's death, and only came after the fact. Who knows. One could say that while Aiden was no longer a colleague at the time of her murder, that the past association and violent nature of her death, which they did investigate, might lead the dept. to "offer" counselling (as opposed to mandating it). I don't think we even got that much. With Angell the show chose to make the follow up specific to Flack, and less about the team. Danny's recovery was also not really about the team, and understandable for it. I find it interesting that with the former Mac sorta played the counsellor, and in the latter Sheldon did. Saves having to cast and write up a pshrink I suppose :lol:. As with Flack, it seems this bit with Lindsay is really more about dramatic opportunity and less what's logical or presumed departmental practice :p. Fair enough.

    Back briefly to what has been seen and what has not. The take down of Casey has not (yet) been depicted. Nor have we (yet) got the Oh My Go0dness Holy F*ck Worse Than Decaptiation OMGEbil part. They could spring both into the premiere to color Mandated Counselling. But it does rather look like we're gonna be relying on retro'd formatting & editing, and ...medals in trash cans. How much is revealed through inserted snippets of scenes depicting and how much is revealed thru Lindsay describing or Lindsay defiantly and mutely suffering, who knows. I'll just say that past examples of AB shouldering a dramatic load did not inspire me. I'm not looking forward to this next round. But again, ymmv.

    (I dread, I dread the moment of something along the likes of "you don't know me, what makes you think you know the first thing about me / what's to tell, I'm fine / I don't know why I hafta be here" yada. Sigh :lol:).

    I suppose I wouldn't mind a scene of Lindsay freezing up at some point and Flack covering her ass. Turnabout is fair play :p.

    I have similar hopes. I'm glad they seem to be playing to some personal interaction, and perhaps devoting some time to illustrating a new team dynamic shaking itself out. I'm glad it sounds like she could be more than willing to take a stance, and challenge others, and do so also with a sense of humor. Thank gad for that.

    I see the 3 month gap being deliberately used to cover that over, and it sorta does work. We've no idea at what point Stella left, nor how long her position remained lacking a successor. If they address the transition in that much detail I'll be all the happier for it. But I wasn't hoping or expecting to see an empty desk to start the season. It's not exactly comparable to NCIS' Todd/Ziva, where that was deliberately played.

    I can see why some might prefer that the new character not simply be welcomed warmly into the fold. I think Miami did alright with Ryan. I think the show managed to show someone likable while also doing it it a way that made it easy to understand why other characters might not be so welcoming. If NY can manage a balance like that, more power to them.

    What I'd not like to see is a character that gives the audience reason to ostracize them and resist their integration. The show and the team dynamic need a figure to balance Mac and share in heading up the labs. That's not a position that Miami or Vegas had to consider with regards to a brand new character. Fishburne is a leading man, but his character does not run the labs or operate from a default position of authority.

    Besides. Who's to say that Adam takes the teasing well. Mebbe he's not so warmly accepting of Jo, he could be taking Stella's departure hard, especially considering that he and Stella did have a night together.

    I think it would make transitioning main characters more difficult than necessary if she's written up as too abrasive or the like. The show will hafta win over some fans regardless. I think I'd rather seem someone who might struggle at times within a brand new work environment, and certainly I'd personally love to see different approaches and opinions, but not necessarily see a character subjected to having to win over a resentful lab staff or team members. I don't think I'd be interested.

    Thank you. Agree. I think team dynamics were always NY's strong suit. I'm hoping that Jo is able to be a part of that sooner rather than later, and that the transition is not overly conflicted just for the sake of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2010
  6. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I personally think six years on the show despite several chances to release her from her contract says more about TPTB's opinion of either Anna's acting or Lindsay's appeal as a character, but that's neither here nor there :lol: The point is she's getting a storyline now, and so far all I've seen around are hopes that this won't turn into season 2 of the DL show, so...

    There are several criminally-underused characters on this show who I personally think have lots of appeal but haven't been developed much. Who knows, maybe they're just making their rounds.

    Um, wouldn't this be "propping Danny up" by using Lindsay? :p

    I absolutely don't want this Lindsay storyline to be handled as crappily as the wheelchair one was, but I would also like (preferably separate, and kept far away from Lindsay's) material on how Danny's dealing with it, since it was his badge.

    I have to admit, though: one of S6/"Vacation Getaway"'s hugest crimes was leaving me seriously disappointed in Lindsay for I think the first time ever. Yes, I was WTF over Danny's refusal to report his badge, and I want that addressed -- but Danny's done things that were bad for him before, it wasn't my issue. Lindsay's by-the-book. I love that about her. She knew there was an obligation to report the badge (herself, if Danny wouldn't) because she mentioned that in "Flag on the Play". This was a little more serious than a skipped shift or even old DNA at a crime scene. And she made the choice I didn't expect her to make. Even without the DL nausea attack that was enough to leave me seriously pissed off if they were going to commit borderline character assassination like that, and paint it as okay, and "deserving of a vacation".

    So, I can't pretend that if they're giving her a storyline, I don't want to see them address this. I do, and I'm hoping it's done well, however long it takes.

    (Not that it should take long, NY isn't exactly notorious for lengthy storylines :lol: And to be fair, I think this one would be fairly easy to wrap up)

    LOL, okay...kinda figured, but can't ever be too sure :lol:

    Well, I actually love that one bit from the spoiler (Dr Johnson saying she doesn't know Lindsay), because to me that's always been a fundamental of Lindsay's character, and I think it's great they're addressing that. She is hard to get to know, and saying "the right thing" to stop people from digging further has pretty much been her MO for years (well, less so in latter seasons, but yeah). So if that's what she's doing here, that doctor's probably the first one to ever directly call her on it, and that interests me.

    But then, presumably Lindsay's in therapy just to get over Shane Casey's shooting; and if she feels her more deep-rooted issues have nothing to do with that, it's possible she might be deflecting every question that doesn't have to do with the shooting or Shane Casey. Which would leave them at the same place. She might get enough clearance to be done with therapy, without the doctor ever finding out a thing about her.

    It's definitely true NY focuses less on the grief-counseling or trauma-counseling than the others, which is odd .. (personally, I think this team's the one to have gone through the most, collectively, so gah :shifty:). Dunno why I'm so stuck on this point, considering that :lol:, but.

    The one other counseling session we've even heard about, other than the upcoming one, was Danny's from S1, which surrounded the Minhas shooting. And yes, while I realize that was completely different circumstances, we know Mac reprimands Danny specifically for "firing wild"; and that no one knew what happened in the tunnel (which was, aside from an undercover cop being shot, the other huge issue in that episode). The counseling may have been ordered on account of directly that: psych eval, presumably to find out if he could still be allowed to carry a gun?

    In which case, it most likely would have been ordered for Flack, too (if they matched his bullet in Simon Cade's body). He was definitely the only one who knows for sure what happened to Cade.

    After all -- though of course, there's no way to know until we find out what happened in that bedroom -- that's the only hint of a similarity I'm seeing between Danny's S1 counseling and Lindsay's coming up. Danny and Lucy were the only other witnesses in the room. It's possible the department might not consider either to be reliable witnesses, especially if Danny was focused on Shane right up until he went down.

    :lol: I'd kill to see this. No really. (Well no, not really, but you know what I mean :p)
     
  7. PerfectAnomaly

    PerfectAnomaly Resident Smart Ass

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    Since Danny has had development independent of Lindsay, no it wouldn't. By inserting Danny into yet another story line that should be about Lindsay they'd be continuing to prop up Lindsay.
     
  8. Geeno

    Geeno Pathologist

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    Hi I have a suggestion or request. If ever CSI Files has another interview with NY TPTB, can you please ask if if MK's departure affected or influenced or changed the cliffhanger's resolution and the premiere episode (most likely, but what are those changes? I'm thinking if MK stays, they might focus on the cliffhanger more. Maybe Shane should have kidnapped Lucy or other things aside from Lindsay killing Shane might happen). And also, what should have been the stories planned for Stella. If it's ok to ask these. Thank you! :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2010
  9. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I don't get how that works. An argument I've heard frequently here is that Lindsay being inserted into Danny's storylines (Ruben, wheelchair, etc) means they prop her up by keeping DL in the main mix, while keeping the storyline mainly for him. If they're going to do the same thing now with him, I'm not seeing why the rules would be different because he had two seasons of independent development, as opposed to Lindsay's one and a half.

    They've both had moments of development outside of each other before. And they've both been - essentially - conjoined twins when it comes to storylines for the past 3 seasons at least, and given those have been the most recent ones -- and recently aired ones, even as far as reruns go -- that's something that's stuck in the mind of a lot of viewers.


    Clearly, Lindsay hasn't been developed as much as Danny (other than Mac or Stella, who else even has? :confused:); but she has had some. As has he. If it's been done before, I maintain it can be done again, and it definitely should be.
     
  10. PerfectAnomaly

    PerfectAnomaly Resident Smart Ass

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    When has it been done for Lindsay? The only story line she's had is the big, dark secret of her past and they couldn't do that without making it about DL development. The character/actress couldn't even pull off the main emotional scene of the entire story without Danny/Carmine being there. She's had no development independent of Danny whatsoever.
     
  11. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    They could in Stealing Home. They could in Dancing with the Fishes. They could in Open and Shut, when she fought with her supervisor over evidence. They could in the S3 episodes that had nothing to do with Danny (Silent Night, The Lying Game ), in several other early S2 episodes when she was the new girl to the city; later on through her mentor/student relationship with Mac (Cool Hunter, ETA: sorry, not Trapped so much, the one I was thinking of is Jamalot; and Bad Beat while I'm at it, and Stuck on You).

    Um, I'm actually shocked that that's the scene you consider the main emotional one in that story, but ymmv of course. I barely remember that one. To me, the main emotional ones were the first trial scene (where she came close to breaking down), and the scenes with Stella in Silent Night (where Stella shouts at her, and later when she goes explains things to Stella), and I really enjoyed the way she pulled them off. That moment where she saw Katums coming through the courthouse and he kind of smiled at her; that was a powerful one too.
     
    Yes she has.

    If long storylines are the only way of determining character development, I don't see what I'm supposed to do about that - but I do think it would also mean there's some seriously underdeveloped characters on this show. For me, it doesn't make sense on a procedural shows (pretty much the one genre, aside from reality tv, that seems to put storylines on the backburner) to measure character development solely in terms of storyline. Yes, it's always great to see one, and it's only fair that everyone should get a few, but I just don't see them as a determining factor.

    ETA: I'm not discounting that they could make this upcoming story all about DL through Danny, actually, like they did with Lindsay in S4 I mean. Seeing how they've crippled pretty much every potentially-fascinating storyline from the last three seasons for these two by eventually making them largely about the other, they'd be sticking with their track record rather than going against it, if they did. I just think they'd be shooting themselves in the foot with it, because even DL fans have started getting bored with how neither of them are really individuals anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2010
  12. flying mouse

    flying mouse Witness

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    Sela Ward's character name seems to be named Kelly, not Jo. Wikipedia says that at least. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2010
  13. ~Sarah~

    ~Sarah~ Lab Technician

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    ^It would be nice if the person who edited had cited where they read/heard the name was Kelly Montaleone.
     
  14. GregNickRyanFan

    GregNickRyanFan Holographic Moderator Moderator

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    Yeah, but Wiki can be edited by anyone, so it's not exactly the most reliable source.
     
  15. Faylinn

    Faylinn Adam Fangirl Super Moderator

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    'Jo' is from the spoilers, which IMO is more reliable than Wiki - but of course, the name could have been changed, so we won't really know until there is a press release or something. :) We'll see!
     
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