Why Lindsay Must Go, Part 4

[Top41]

And we're on to a fourth thread!

Continued from here.

First, the original post from the first thread (ie, why there are four):

For the old farts on the board, you might want to revisit the first few threads. For the newbies, you might wish to read through the first 2000 posts on the subject of why Lindsay Monroe should leave CSI:NY. If you are so inclined, you can find the first thread here and the second thread here.

The purpose of this thread is, of course, to debate and discuss (in a mature manner) the reasons why Lindsay should go or, if you wish, provide reasons why she should stay instead. To quote JDonne from the original thread:

JDonne said:

I just wanted to discuss this issue in a non-contentious environment, where everyone is of who steps in here knows what is in store, so if you want to come in and say otherwise, well great, but I ask that you leave you emotions at the door. The thread title makes it clear that there will be no love fest in here, it won’t be bashing, just opinions not in support of the character. In other words, I wanted a place where people were free to discuss Lindsay’s faults without feelings getting hurt, without people taking it personally, and I just don’t think comments of this nature would be welcome in the Anna Belknap/Lindsay Monroe thread. That is fair, but neither do I think extended discussions about Lindsay belong in the Aiden or Lindsay thread. So, this is a place to vent, a place to come clean, a place to say your piece, either way, or at least I hope so. I just want some good old talk about what you feel is wrong with her (or right), and not simply I hate her because she replaced Aiden or I love her because Anna seems sweet.

And--go!

And continuing the discussion from the last page of thread three, which focused on Lindsay's behavior in episodes like "Silent Night":

I think Stella earned a lot of audience cheers when she told Lindsay to get her act together (in a more subtle way than that, of course) in Silent Night. Even Lindsay/DL fans must have seen that that was a totally self-centred and unsympathetic way to behave.

I often pop in here because I'm genuinely interested in why people don't like Lindsay/Anna, but I rarely post as I see most of the comments here as being someone's interpretation based on their personal likes and dislikes which is not always easy to debate without going around in circles.

But, as someone who likes Lindsay and based on your assumption that even those of us who do must think she's self-centred I felt the need to comment. I think Stella was absolutely right in her approach to Lindsay in this scene. Lindsay came across as surly and immature in the episode. But, I was convinced that her actions were based on something traumatic that had happened to her. Therefore I found myself intrigued as to what had happened and sympathetic to her distress while at the same time not condoning her actions or the way she spoke to Stella.

In a perfect world, as adults we'd all be capable of open and honest communication, but we're not. Yes, the mature thing is to speak up if you're struggling to deal with a situation that's affecting your work, but how many people do? The three times that I recall Lindsay reacting badly at work (SN, OH & AA) all seemed to be because she was affected by the cases. It's no different to me than Mac getting shirty with Hawkes/Adam/whoever gets in his way or Stella sounding off because something has affected her or Danny mouthing off because he's feeling unsupported by the team or wanting to follow his gut.

I think what's different for me about it is the way Lindsay takes her anger out on her coworkers. For the record, I was no more forgiving of Danny when he lost it on the son of a victim in "The Dove Commission"--that was simply horrid behavior, and the only saving grace was that Danny had the goodness to apologize for it in the end. I don't care what Danny's childhood trauma was--he still shouldn't have behaved that way to someone who just lost his father. But, that's one instance, and Danny has otherwise been kind and sympathetic to both his coworkers and the people he meets in the course of his cases (unless they're killers).

But anytime Lindsay gets stressed, she takes it out on someone else. It's not like it's just happened once or twice--she snapped at Danny in "Manhattan Manhunt" and "Oedipus Hex" over things related to her job and then later brought their relationship issues into work, like in "Right Next Door," "Like Water for Murder" and "Personal Foul." That shows a pattern.

And then there's "Silent Night." Have any of the other CSIs ever snapped at one of their superiors? I can't recall anyone else on the team giving Mac or Stella lip. Lindsay's response was incredibly immature, and it was given in the face of Stella trying to cut her some slack. That makes it incredibly difficult to sympathize with her on any level.

I see what you're saying about the trauma, but if Lindsay can't handle her job or dating her coworker, then she shouldn't be doing either.

I have managed grown up professional people in my work life and as much as none of them would like to admit it, they're all capable of throwig a hissy fit if they're worried/affected/pre-occupied by something personal. People just aren't always capable of leaving their personal lives at home.

But if they consistently displayed that kind of behavior, wouldn't their jobs eventually be in jeopardy?

I admit that Anna's crying seemed a little forced in this episode but it wasn't enough to make me unsympathetic to Lindsay when seeing the 'bigger picture' of what was going on for her.

The crying in the morgue was so cringe-worthy that it took me out of the scene completely. I didn't really care one way or another--I was so shocked by how poorly the actress was conveying the emotion that that was what I focused on.

And as for the writing, I really don't think it's done the character any favours. The back and forth and telling half the story then sitting back for several episodes has added to the confusing character development imo.

It hasn't, but it's hard for me to lay it all at the feet of the writers when they consistently churn out such great storylines and emotional dilemmas for the other characters. I think a big part of the reason that Lindsay hasn't gelled as a character after four years is that Anna simply doesn't have the acting chops to pull off the deeper work the others are capable of.

 

[OldGuise]

And we're on to a fourth thread!

Awesome.

But if they consistently displayed that kind of behavior, wouldn't their jobs eventually be in jeopardy?

In reality, yes... but I think that to like Lindsay, one requires a certain suspension of disbelief. The big problem is that the writers are often incapable of infusing a 'human interest and a semblance of truth' with Lindsay's storylines - and when they can, its believability is really up to Belknap's acting, which just isn't as good as it needs to be when it comes to the more dramatic scenes.

 

[Isla]

Like JellyBelly, I also like Lindsay and I sometimes read here as I´m interested in the different point of views regarding Lindsay.

but if Lindsay can't handle her job or dating her coworker, then she shouldn't be doing either.

Regarding her relationship with Danny, I think you have to consider that such a crime overshadows especially the whole youth. Victims often have a feeling of higher personal vulnerability and they also have to find their trust in mankind again. Because of that it might well be that Lindsay hasn´t had many relationships since her youth. And now as an adult she just has to learn how it works. I don´t know if it makes any sense what I´ve written. Just an attempt.

 

[Yumi696]

I just watched Silent Night again... and I covered my ears and closed my eyes when it came to Lindsay's "breakdown."

I didn't want to be put through the whole thing again.

Isla, I get what you're saying, but Anna Belknap is just so obviously awkward instead of being subtly awkward (which would be the case if Lindsay hasn't had many relationships). It's obvious that it's Anna that's awkward instead of Lindsay. You know what I mean?

Did I make sense?

 

[Poppet]

I often wonder 2 things:

1. If the character of Lindsay was written with more consistency, more development and less special treatment (I am thinking about when she left the evidence unattended and Mac's OOC reaction here) would I find Annas portrayal more believable and likable?

2. If the character as it stands was played by a different actor would I find the character more believable and likable?

For me, I think a little from column A and a little from column B. I sometimes think the first one leads me to find fault in the second one - if that makes any sense.

 

[Yumi696]

^ I agree.

 

[Top41]

Same here. I definitely feel it's the combination of actor and character here. If Lindsay was played by someone more skilled and frankly warmer and less brittle than Anna Belknap, I think it would be easier to overlook the flaws and inconsistencies in the character. And on the flipside, if the writers had stuck with the sunny, teasing, stronger version of Lindsay they built up midway through season two--the one who was fixated on understanding a criminal to the point of defying her boss, the one who went after Danny in a creative and pointed way--I think she'd come off better. Anna did well with that material. So I really think it's a combination of inconsistent/unsympathetic writing for the character and Anna's weaknesses as an actress that just add up to make her unlikable.

 

[Poppet]

I always think of Manhattan Manhunt when she had the strop for being sent back to the lab and then the next season she is unable to cope at a crime scene. If she had been shown to struggle at the scene in Manhattan Manhunt even possibly asking to go back to the lab, than I would probably have been sympathetic and intrigued by her 'dark secret'. As it was I found the storyline dull and OOC from what had gone before and Anna portrayal of it was unable to draw me in either.

Conversely, I found Danny sleeping with Rikki a slightly bizzare twist but the two actors involved instantly drew me in and sold the story to me. In terms of writing I found it to go against where the writing had seemed to be going but I totally believed Carmine and the actor playing Rikkis protrayal. When the writing is a little weak you need strong actors to sell the story and vice versa, unfortunatley I feel Lindsay suffers in both departments here.

 

[JellyBelly]

But anytime Lindsay gets stressed, she takes it out on someone else. It's not like it's just happened once or twice--she snapped at Danny in "Manhattan Manhunt" and "Oedipus Hex" over things related to her job and then later brought their relationship issues into work, like in "Right Next Door," "Like Water for Murder" and "Personal Foul." That shows a pattern.

I think when Lindsay gets stressed she tends to snap because she's not able to express it in a more mature way. I wouldn't say she treats people badly. Her behaviour that time with Stella was bad and Stella gave her the metaphorical slap that she needed, she was then able to confide in Stella. As for the other times, it's always been with Danny, probably because she felt a certain safety/comfort with him. I'm not saying that's good behaviour, but I do see it as being fairly usual bahaviour in people who don't express themselves well. Danny is partly responsible for allowing that pattern to continue. As for bringing issues to work, I think Danny is equally responsible for that. He opened the floodgates in RND when really he should've left well alone until after work, and again in PF he was the one chasing her. That's not to detract from Lindsay's behaviour, it's just I see it as being more the two of them than her alone.

I see what you're saying about the trauma, but if Lindsay can't handle her job or dating her coworker, then she shouldn't be doing either.

And I see what you're saying but shouldn't the same principle be applied to all the characters then? Take Stella in Open & Shut, she was so obviously affected by her own trauma to the point where she was pretty dogmatic for a while there, as well as dismissing Lindsay's theory out of hand when so obviously influenced by her own experience. That's the bit I don't get, it seems to me as though Lindsay is villified for her behaviour when others are seen as being appropriately flawed and human.

But if they consistently displayed that kind of behavior, wouldn't their jobs eventually be in jeopardy?

Of course, if it was adversely affecting work, the team etc. I don't see Lindsay as consistently displaying that kind of behaviour though , that's kind of my point. Aside from that one time with Stella, her other 'outbursts' have been with Danny, and right from Lindsay's first appearance the writer's were selling their relationship on a personal as well as professional level which adds a different dimension.

I often wonder 2 things:

1. If the character of Lindsay was written with more consistency, more development and less special treatment (I am thinking about when she left the evidence unattended and Mac's OOC reaction here) would I find Annas portrayal more believable and likable?

2. If the character as it stands was played by a different actor would I find the character more believable and likable?

For me, I think a little from column A and a little from column B. I sometimes think the first one leads me to find fault in the second one - if that makes any sense.

Same here. I definitely feel it's the combination of actor and character here. If Lindsay was played by someone more skilled and frankly warmer and less brittle than Anna Belknap, I think it would be easier to overlook the flaws and inconsistencies in the character. And on the flipside, if the writers had stuck with the sunny, teasing, stronger version of Lindsay they built up midway through season two--the one who was fixated on understanding a criminal to the point of defying her boss, the one who went after Danny in a creative and pointed way--I think she'd come off better. Anna did well with that material. So I really think it's a combination of inconsistent/unsympathetic writing for the character and Anna's weaknesses as an actress that just add up to make her unlikable.

I miss season 2 Lindsay. I like season 5 Lindsay and I'm invested in her character, but I really would have chosen a different route than the writers chose. I think there have been so many unanswered questions and I think the writers have used Lindsay's relationship with Danny for dramatic affect as opposed to consistency and believability.

One of the common sayings in this thread is that Danny's used to prop up Lindsay in the show. I see it as Lindsay being used to add more dramatic impact to Danny's storylines, certainly in the past two seasons. And whilst the argument that Carmine is better than Anna at the dramatic/angsty character portrayal is valid, if they'd really wanted to do her character justice then they'd have played to her strengths.

 

[Poppet]

One of the common sayings in this thread is that Danny's used to prop up Lindsay in the show. I see it as Lindsay being used to add more dramatic impact to Danny's storylines, certainly in the past two seasons. And whilst the argument that Carmine is better than Anna at the dramatic/angsty character portrayal is valid, if they'd really wanted to do her character justice then they'd have played to her strengths.

As writers on a top show they should definately be aware of their actors strengths and weakness and be able to write accordingly. After seeing season 2 Lindsay and 'dark secret' season 3 Lindsay, the mind boggles as to way the chose the route they did for season 4.

 

[Yumi696]

To JellyBelly:

Lindsay just takes it to the extreme though. She actually lets her feelings interfere with her job (such as leaving the scene in Silent Night). Even when the other characters are having problems, they try not to let it get in the way with her job. In Open and Shut, Stella manages to get past her personal problems to see the obvious, so it didn't interfere with her job.

And in Manhattan Manhunt, it just really became obvious how selfish she was. There was a huge massacre, and she was worried about her not being on the field? It's just immature to the nth degree.

 

[Isla]

Isla, I get what you're saying, but Anna Belknap is just so obviously awkward instead of being subtly awkward (which would be the case if Lindsay hasn't had many relationships). It's obvious that it's Anna that's awkward instead of Lindsay. You know what I mean?

Did I make sense?

Yes, I understand what you´re saying.
I just had the feeling of Lindsay not having many relationships when I was watching LRC (not coming to the date and no real excuse for it; not being able to talk about the why; the ´I like you a lot, but I can´t do that´comment; just walking away at the end. Like several times) or in SH (smiling about the ´he has a crush on you´. I know it was cheesy). Or in TLG (writing Danny a card instead of personally saying goodbye and asking Hawkes to give it to Danny and only watching Danny from the car).
I liked Anna Belknap in those scenes and it was believable for me. I might be biased because I´ve liked Lindsay since the beginning. So I don´t know.

 

[FlackFan01]

Wow, 4th thread....I don't recall seeing any "why x must go" threads for any other character. Just an observation is all..

And now back to our scheduled chatting....

 

[Yumi696]

I don't know... maybe I'm a little biased because I stopped liking her after Silent Night.

Good observation, FlackFan01!

On a side note... yay for my new Adam sig & avatar!

 

[Faylinn]

This is one instance where I think having a fourth thread kind of sucks.

Spoiler: season finale

But there's a possibility, however slim, that we might be able to retire this baby for good after the season finale. Fingers crossed, eh?

FlackFan01 said:

Wow, 4th thread....I don't recall seeing any "why x must go" threads for any other character. Just an observation is all..

There was an 'anti-Danny' thread a while ago, and there was a 'Why Angell must go' thread at one point - but both threads dropped off the page rather quickly. The WLMG threads are the only ones that have been posted in consistently over such a long period of time.

JellyBelly said:

And I see what you're saying but shouldn't the same principle be applied to all the characters then? Take Stella in Open & Shut, she was so obviously affected by her own trauma to the point where she was pretty dogmatic for a while there, as well as dismissing Lindsay's theory out of hand when so obviously influenced by her own experience. That's the bit I don't get, it seems to me as though Lindsay is villified for her behaviour when others are seen as being appropriately flawed and human.

I wasn't a fan of Stella's behavior in "Open and Shut", particularly the way she acted toward Lindsay (and was it Hawkes? It's been a while since I saw the episode) - she was rude and acted inappropriately (and I really have no idea why she was even allowed to work the case). She should have apologized, and I don't think she ever did. The big thing with that is that I think we were meant to see her behavior as inappropriate because she had blinders on, and over the course of the episode we saw that she realized this and had to come to terms with it. Within the episode, Stella got a bit of growth as she dealt with some personal demons, and she had to realize the importance of separating her own experience from the job. It could have been done better - or perhaps just less hastily - but I felt like there was a purpose to it.

In Lindsay's case, there have been times that she has acted inappropriately, but it wasn't played as if we were meant to see it as her acting inappropriately. When she got miffed about Mac sending her back to the lab in "Manhattan Manhunt", Danny told her Mac was just looking out for her (I haven't watched the episode in a while, but I recall it as being said as if to soothe her butthurt - instead of reminding her that she has to get a grip and do her job). When she left evidence unattended during a lab inspection, Mac didn't respond harshly because she was upset - and this is the guy who jumped down Adam's throat for giving lab results to Mac's superior and chewed Hawkes out in the middle of the lab for not sharing that he talked to a victim once - instead, he gave her a light slap on the wrist. (If Quinn didn't have the hots for Mac, it's possible that she might not have been as fair during that inspection.) Then there's the episode where Lindsay shoved the clipboard thing at Danny and stomped off instead of doing as Mac asked and filling him in on the case - while Hawkes was standing there - and it was just brushed off.

It's like we're not supposed to see the things she does wrong as being wrong - the rest of the team indulges her and handles her with kid gloves, so we as viewers should do the same.

Isla said:

I just had the feeling of Lindsay not having many relationships when I was watching LRC (not coming to the date and no real excuse for it; not being able to talk about the why; the ´I like you a lot, but I can´t do that´comment; just walking away at the end. Like several times) or in SH (smiling about the ´he has a crush on you´. I know it was cheesy). Or in TLG (writing Danny a card instead of personally saying goodbye and asking Hawkes to give it to Danny and only watching Danny from the car).

I get that, but at the same time - we've also seen her show confidence and take the initiative when it comes to Danny. They've created completely different behaviors for her as a character, and they haven't done a good job of making those behaviors work together in a way that makes sense. The result is that she ends up looking inconsistent.

Poppet said:

I often wonder 2 things:

1. If the character of Lindsay was written with more consistency, more development and less special treatment (I am thinking about when she left the evidence unattended and Mac's OOC reaction here) would I find Annas portrayal more believable and likable?

2. If the character as it stands was played by a different actor would I find the character more believable and likable?

For me, I think a little from column A and a little from column B. I sometimes think the first one leads me to find fault in the second one - if that makes any sense.

It's both for me. The writing and the acting both have problems, so they seem to compound each other. Sometimes the writing is alright, but the portrayal is iffy. Other times the portrayal is passable, but the writing isn't as good as it could be. Altogether, it's almost like 'never the twain shall meet' - rarely will okay writing and passable acting combine to create a not-too-bad scene. It happens, but not often, and when it does happen - it's hard to care too much when such scenes are the exception rather than the rule.

Poppet said:

Conversely, I found Danny sleeping with Rikki a slightly bizzare twist but the two actors involved instantly drew me in and sold the story to me. In terms of writing I found it to go against where the writing had seemed to be going but I totally believed Carmine and the actor playing Rikkis protrayal.

I'm with you on that one. I quite enjoyed their interaction and the way that storyline was going (up until the emergency retcon this season, but I digress) - Jacqueline and Carmine did a good job with something that had the potential to be very iffy.

JellyBelly said:

One of the common sayings in this thread is that Danny's used to prop up Lindsay in the show. I see it as Lindsay being used to add more dramatic impact to Danny's storylines, certainly in the past two seasons.

I see it as both. In terms of giving Lindsay any kind of substance as a character, it seems to be down to Danny to prop her up - without him and their relationship, she has very little in the way of individual merit as a character. Meanwhile, they use her more as a prop (in the sense of being a plot device) during Danny's storylines, as if that's her purpose and nothing more.

Right now, it seems like Lindsay being pregnant with Danny's baby is more about using her to add to Danny's drama - but when looking at Lindsay individually, since she's in the main credits and therefore should be a stand-alone character, all she seems to have is that she's carrying Danny's child and they just got married.

So they are both 'props' for each other, but in different ways. Danny props Lindsay up to give her some semblance of character structure, and Lindsay sometimes acts as nothing more than a stage prop in Danny's scenes.

(Yeah, rambly, but hopefully some of that made sense. )

And whilst the argument that Carmine is better than Anna at the dramatic/angsty character portrayal is valid, if they'd really wanted to do her character justice then they'd have played to her strengths.

Exactly, that's part of the problem. Why not create Lindsay's character to feature Anna as an actress and develop the character on her own? They started out well and then for whatever reason decided to limit her to little more than a love interest, wasting a lot of potential. She's not a total non-entity - even minor characters have a certain amount of individuality, personality and structure (Adam was a unique character even when he only had a few episodes every now and then, for example), but when it comes to a series regular, I feel like there should be more to it than what there is to Lindsay.

So yeah, it's not entirely down to Anna's acting, but as I said above, the acting compounds the problems with the writing.

***
This is kind of random, but I thought I'd say it since we're at the beginning of a shiny new thread:

I know some people are under the impression that this thread is all about the actress and blaming her for everything wrong with the character, but that's really not the case - the character is created by the writers and brought to life by the actress, so when there's a problem with Lindsay Monroe and people thing she "must go", it's a combination of both. Saying the character did something stupid is a comment about the fictional person created by the writers - it's nothing personal. And thinking the actress's portrayal leaves something to be desired isn't a comment on Anna as a person - acting is her job, that's it. Again, it's nothing personal.

I know some people are offended at the existence of the thread to begin with - but ultimately, it's no different than a thread praising a character. Strong opinions from fans, agreeing and disagreeing, commenting on past episodes and discussing how things could or should go from here - the only real difference is that this is a place to say things that are negative about a character rather than positive. It's no more powerful or relevant than any other thread - we're all fans on a message board, discussing the show and sharing our opinions. I think it's safe to say the people in here realize we have no more likelihood of getting rid of Lindsay than we do of getting Flack's father to show up by talking about him in another thread (which we've also been doing for years :lol - and that has never been the point. TalkCSI is a fun place to go and talk with other fans - and it's also a nice way to share both enjoyment and frustration with other people when you have no control over what happens on the show week to week.

Sorry, that got kind of rambly. But y'all still love me, right?