First, I'm enjoying the back and forth going on here!
I also think
Faylinn's 'rambly' post concisely said alot of things I agree with, but it's not gonna stop me from rambling myself.
Sorry in advance. There's lots to delve into here and catch up on.
Regards
Poppet's question of character versus casting, I dunno. In a way Lindsay's a character who's a bit of a cipher. With the rest of the cast I can't imagine anyone else playing their roles. The casting fits the characters and the portrayal has me believing who they are, regardless of whether I agree or not with what they do or how they do it on a weekly basis. S2 Lindsay had all sorts of potential, and I have no idea where it all went. When we get glimmers now of the spirit she more consistently showed then, it's almost something I regard with a certain amount of suspicious skepticism :lol: because I don't get who she is. As a result of the roller-coaster combination of writing and performance, I'm not in the least invested in her as a character, and have a hard time seeing what it is she contributes to the ensemble and to the show.
How other characters have reacted to her have often had me thinking
their behaviour OOC. That too impacts me as a viewer of the show, and my take on how she fits within it.
Would she be more likeable played by someone else? I liked her well enough in S2. Kind of a moot point to me in a way because no one's obliged to like a character on a show. I have both liked and disliked House for various reasons, but he was still generally compelling to watch when I've tuned in. Sometimes I like Mac, sometimes he gets up my nose, but he's interesting onscreen. Same with Stella. Same with Danny. (The others, as much as I do love them, are interesting onscreen but don't seem to challenge me in quite the same way :lol
I just can't say Lindsay's a compelling or integral presence onscreen. Whether a different actor could have turned out a more engaging version of the character, or even a more
defined one, sure it's possible, but as I said, this was much less of an issue in S2, for whatever reason.
I think when Lindsay gets stressed she tends to snap because she's not able to express it in a more mature way. I wouldn't say she treats people badly. Her behaviour that time with Stella was bad and Stella gave her the metaphorical slap that she needed, she was then able to confide in Stella.
I was so fed up with the 'mysterious moments' I was relieved and applauding Stella by the time that came around. I also wondered why no one else ever calls her out on things. I gotta wonder why no one else has been given much beyond the lightest of interaction with her at all. Besides Danny? Mac I guess. The mushy Mac we get with her is wasabi to me (crawls up your nose and burns like C4, but at least that's in the course of something enjoyable). She did confide in Mac after Reuben's death, saying she wasn't good at comforting people. But beyond that, she's still largely 'exposition woman.' Others get some great scenes together, some great little moments and a sense of connection. I've never felt that Lindsay's had that with the others to the same degree. Early in the season they were giving her more of the light comedic stuff with Flack and Stella, and I guess more recently with Sid, but even that was a little hit and miss with me.
That's the bit I don't get, it seems to me as though Lindsay is villified for her behaviour when others are seen as being appropriately flawed and human.
For me, it's that Lindsay hasn't been intended to be seen as flawed, I think her behaviour was meant to be excusable if only we knew what was troubling her, poor muffin. That kind of kid glove handling has also been annoying. Additionally, she's not been given enough depth to seem terribly complex. At least, the portrayal of the material she's been given didn't lead me to see her that way. I can recognize the intent in some of the moments given to her, but there's a duality in that intent versus how it often reads to me onscreen. Subjective, sure, but there's also gotta be a lil somthing more to it when many others seem to notice the same.
Lindsay hasn't been held accountable in the same ways as the others. If she ever had been I think that would have changed my feelings about her at least a little bit. Might have made those moments both acknowledged and also constructive. This inconsistency leads to discussions because it's puzzling, and is another way she's somehow set apart. When Mac has a pissy tantrum and craps down Adam's labcoat or rips Sheldon one, or even argues with Stella, we discuss whether it was warranted or not, or even what the exchange was meant to illustrate. No, we don't say Mac was evil but nor do we all agree with how he handled things. Hell, other
characters disagree with him and call him out on stuff, like Flack and Stella, and even Peyton at one point. Similarly, when Stella had her moment, I don't think anyone read it as acceptable but saw it highlighted as being out of the ordinary and a story element that would be dealt with as the ep ran it's course. When Lindsay gets pissy and throws a snit we do the same thing and talk about what the exchange was meant to illustrate, and no, we don't all agree with how she handles things. I'm not convinced we treat her any differently for the discussions had, only that she tends to generate extremely strong opinions. Part of
that stems from the fact that within the realm of the show, Lindsay's not treated the same, not by her colleagues, not given the same treatment by the writers even in that regard. With Lindsay, the 'flawed' moments don't seem to lead to any growth or resolution or even acknowledgement, if not by her as a character, than at least by the presentation of the story in a way that a viewer can say was deliberately done.
Aw hell, I dunno if any of that made any sense at all :lol: :lol:
What I suppose I really have a problem with is a lack of nuance and subtlety with Lindsay, and with Anna's performances. That leads me to feel a real lack of depth to her character. With someone like Flack, Adam, Sheldon, or even Sid, there's a subtlety in shading where I can buy there's more to them than we're either told or shown. I suppose that's a reason why I'm always up in the writer's kitchen to do more with Hawkes.
One of the common sayings in this thread is that Danny's used to prop up Lindsay in the show. I see it as Lindsay being used to add more dramatic impact to Danny's storylines, certainly in the past two seasons. And whilst the argument that Carmine is better than Anna at the dramatic/angsty character portrayal is valid, if they'd really wanted to do her character justice then they'd have played to her strengths.
I can see what you're getting at, but I'm not all that keen on what I see as the resulting impact on Danny's character. As for playing to Anna's strengths, that certainly doesn't seem to be emotionally laden material, be it dark secrets, an ever troubled relationship, or a resulting pregnancy. And again, even the lighter stuff doesn't seem to gel for me as often as it once did. I would say the writers should simply concentrate on improving and rounding out the character, even just on paper, and see what can come of it with Anna. I would say that, but she'd never be a factor drawing me to watch the show. Not now.
I do think Mac's interactions with Lindsay are interesting. I would love to see that explored in some depth. I think there's a definite dynamic between them that he doesn't have with the other characters.
(First, I think Stella would kick Mac's ass back to boot camp if she thought he didn't see her as an equal :lol:. The indication is that they've been partners for a long time, far too long for him to only base any view of her merits or professional 'parity' on her job title alone.)
I think the dichotomy of Mac's interactions are interesting. A different take on things might be to suggest he holds Lindsay to lesser standards somehow. He's also had quieter moments with Danny, Stella, even Adam. He's had moments of confiding in Sheldon (Mrs. Azrael for example) and Flack (about Peyton), and more than a few where we do get to see the longtime friendship between Mac and Stella. The anomaly for me is why Lindsay gets the soft handling and not the same equality in the professional capacity that the others do, especially in an instance where she coulda seriously compromised a lab inspection. The demonstrations where she guinea-pigs Mac were her lighter moments (but still exposition) that also let Mac be poked and not taken so seriously. They served a purpose that scenes with Adam often do now. Sorry to say I think the ones with Adam are more fun to watch. Mac asking after Lindsay now (as opposed to Stella in S3) has me more curious about Mac than interested in Lindsay.
I just wish they'd taken Lindsay in a different direction (either with or without Danny). I think it was possible to do that at one point and I still hope it's not too late but I've got a feeling it might be.
So do I. Honestly.
And no, I dunno where they go with her from here either.
Personally I'd rather see one 'love her or hate her' thread, but that's just me. I find myself in the middle groud where I see fault with the character and sometimes her portrayal but I basically like the character and believe that Anna does a good overall job of portraying her. I don't feel that debate is fostered when there are two threads. It seems as though you either have to love her and never criticise her or the complete opposite.
I have moments where I see faults in all the characters, whether deliberately depicted or unfortunate fallout from how an eppie got put together. Moments where I like or dislike them for different reasons within an episode. I don't feel things are so polarized as to exclude a middle ground. I hope not anyways. I think discussion happens wherever there's a forum that supports it, and that's obviously gonna be easier or more welcomed in some threads than others. I'm glad there is a thread like this that allows for a civil exchange where toes won't be stepped on, or at least you might have fair warning to an inclination to wear steel toes if you're concerned. Same sort of deal goes for the Ship Debate threads. And it's definitely interesting when not everyone agrees.
Mebbe even moreso.
I often find the spoiler threads and review threads are really great for discussions, for talking about possibilities and getting differing takes on aired episodes and getting widely varying points of view there, because they're more show based, and anything or any character is up for debate within that context. I do think a middle ground is entirely possible, moreso if dialogue happens.
While I love Danny, giving him someone to compete with all the time would have been endlessly more entertaining to me. As much as I was surprised at her bark it was a lot more interesting than what they've turned her into.
Well, I saw the early dynamic as having elements of a bit of a rivalry, but not in the same fun way as with Aiden. :lol: Those two really did have a great dynamic.
I got the feeling that Lindsay, being new, was a little defensive and felt she didn't need to be treated as a newbie and merited better, even if she saw Danny's behaviour towards her as a bit of good natured bluster and part of his charm.
Though again, we only got the smallest snippets hinting at her marvelous career in Montana before she came to NY.
Consider as a comparison the introduction of Riley on Vegas. I wasn't sure I was gonna warm to her, but with her I grew a respect as well as eventually starting to warm to her character. Whatever my take on S2 Lindsay was, it washed away in S3 and after.
I have to say, I'm really enjoying this discussion. It's nice to be able to discuss our different viewpoints of the characters without getting hostile or upset with each other.
So long as it's all civil, I think good debate is a really fun way to get into the show and look at it from different angles.
Again, those are reasons why I enjoy this forum, this particular thread, as well as the reviews and spoiler discussions, as that's where a lot of good back and forth seems to take place.
That general inclusiveness is definitely a reason that after a substantial period of time I felt comfortable enough to emerge from shadows of lurkdom to find my way into participating. It wasn't an easy thing to step into initially, at least not for me, but it's been a lotta fun and I'm glad I did. And it also makes the shows more fun to watch as well, knowing there's an armada of people out there happy to chat about it in this fashion. That's just me.
Lindsay being uptight in season 2 was part of why I liked her. It was nice having a character come in who didn't exactly fit. One of the things I found a little annoying in season 1 was how all the females were portrayed as being 'tough girls'. Don't get me wrong, I like women being portrayed as tough but there was something refreshing and realistic about having a woman who was trying to be tough but deep down was struggling with that.
I think there was a deliberate shift in having Lindsay not be from NY, not be comparable to Aiden, be tough from the merits of her own background and backstory, which have unfortunately been reducable to a nickname, 'Montana,' and the Dark Secret (also from Montana). I think what was interesting was her trying to fit into not only the labs but into NY; new city, new job, new co-workers, I mean that's a helluva jump to make, and I think they coulda done more with that, used it to highlight New York City even more in a way.
But, I personally think that Anna could have handled Lindsay's character development outside of D/L if the writer's had given her the material and if they'd have written it for her as an actor. But, I'm not sure that's necessarily anything against the character on the part of the writer's, they've sorely neglected Hawkes and to a certain extent Flack, until the current season at least. I think the writer's really seem to struggle balancing the personal storylines. They've been focusing more on Hawkes, Flack and Adam this season, still need to keep the ball in the air for Mac and Stella as the leads, but seem to have used the baby as an excuse not to develop either Danny or Lindsay outside of that. Although the most recent episode did have interesting Danny development.
She wasn't neglected. I think they did try to develop Lindsay, with the Dark Secret line. That was the first substantial material devoted entirely to her, no matter if it came about as a result of managing Anna's pregnancy at the time. It did not elicit a huge amount of empathy or even curiousity from me, due a combo of the writing and because of Anna's performances. I do think it's a tricky thing to balance, the number of characters and creating insights into them, but every small moment devoted, and scene between them helps to fill things in and colour the characters, and is like a small treat. I'll take whatever I can get. Because procedural show or no, if I'm not interested in the characters then I'm not :censored: watching! :lol:
As for DL or rather D & L. I was all happy and revived in my openess to Lindsay's character upon hearing Danny and Lindsay were initially supposed to be taken in new and separate directions in S5. I was massively, grievously bummed when DL raised it's head again instead. Absolutely sunk the hopes I had of seeing either re-emerge as an individual to have development that stems from a little alone time :lol: I cannot even begin to tell ya.
(And um, sorry for the excessive length here).
