Horatio/DC #15: 'Back To Basics'
- Thread starter mjszud
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Delynn
CSI Level One
They don't seem to be putting them in a lot of scenes together and I don't find myself wishing that they would. Jesse doesn't seem to have the natural, easy flow that Natalia, Ryan, Frank and even Walter have with Horatio.
I do enjoy watching him with Ryan and Walter, but not necessarily with Calleigh or Natalia.
I don't know if it's the way the scenes are being written or if it's they way they are being acted. But the long and short of it is, yes. I agree that the chemistry between Horatio and Jesse is questionable at this point. I'd like to see them write a little more for the two, with it very clear that Horatio is in charge, so we can get a better idea of whether they will mesh.
mjszud
Captain
Maybe TPTB considered 8.1 & 8.2 were enough of a start for the "jesse/H" relationship, then started leaning towards Jesse forming bonds with the others.
I agree. I've always felt that Ryan, Nat, & Eric were much under H's wing, so to speak -- but too often it feels that Jesse is "solo". Perhaps in 8.16 we'll see a shift in terms of who's boss & who is not.
Delynn
CSI Level One
After reading something that Naomi said in the spoilers thread I do wonder if when we watch Horatio and Jesse interact if we aren't missing the closeness and ease the Horatio and Eric have when they interact with one another.
Naomi referred to missing Horatio and Eric's "surrogate father-son vibe". I think she's made a very valid point about the dynamic between Horatio and Eric.
So it begs the question are we missing the dynamic Eric had with Horatio and does that just make the lack of ease between Horatio and Jesse that much more obvious? Is the ease and closeness a result of the Caruso and Rodriguez having the benefit of working together so closely for so long - something that Caruso and Cibrian haven't had a chance to do yet? Or is it a natural chemistry that can't be created over time?
I don't think it necessarily has to be a father and son dynamic. Horatio and Jesse are supposed to be long-time friends. Shouldn't we feel some kind of "connection?" Is it because it's not there or because the writers haven't taken the time to try and establish a relationship between these two men?
Is it fair to the Jesse character not to establish a firm and positive relationship with the lead character on the show? Isn't that a necessary component to finding his place and making it a comfortable fit?
Naomi referred to missing Horatio and Eric's "surrogate father-son vibe". I think she's made a very valid point about the dynamic between Horatio and Eric.
So it begs the question are we missing the dynamic Eric had with Horatio and does that just make the lack of ease between Horatio and Jesse that much more obvious? Is the ease and closeness a result of the Caruso and Rodriguez having the benefit of working together so closely for so long - something that Caruso and Cibrian haven't had a chance to do yet? Or is it a natural chemistry that can't be created over time?
I don't think it necessarily has to be a father and son dynamic. Horatio and Jesse are supposed to be long-time friends. Shouldn't we feel some kind of "connection?" Is it because it's not there or because the writers haven't taken the time to try and establish a relationship between these two men?
Is it fair to the Jesse character not to establish a firm and positive relationship with the lead character on the show? Isn't that a necessary component to finding his place and making it a comfortable fit?
mjszud
Captain
That's alot of questions Delynn :lol:
I personally think it all boils down to this:
I don't recall ever feeling like H & Ryan, or H & Nat ever had a fabulous relationship from the get-go either. There was certainly a nice work-related chemistry with both "pairs", but nothing that stood out too much. At that time, I could have said with absolute belief that H was closer to Eric, Speed, & Calleigh. It's taken some time, but I do feel there's a developed bond now between H & Ryan, & H & Natalia. IMO, these things just take time, & it takes a few deep situations to really feel the characters are connecting.
I have the opinion that chemistry is something that cannot be faked, nor "created", but when it comes to typical co-workers/friends, I do think it takes some effort in scenes/dialogue. For example, I personally never saw a great chemistry with Ryan & Natalia, romantic or non (still don't see it romantic, never will), but after seeing the two paired up working more often, seeing them work as a team & able to rely on each other, it's done wonders for thier chemistry.
So, in this situation with Jesse & Horatio, at least at this point in time, I do think they just need some added "oomph" to thier scenes.......if we can't see it then, then scratch everything I just posted.
I personally think it all boils down to this:
I'm gonna say yes to this.
I don't recall ever feeling like H & Ryan, or H & Nat ever had a fabulous relationship from the get-go either. There was certainly a nice work-related chemistry with both "pairs", but nothing that stood out too much. At that time, I could have said with absolute belief that H was closer to Eric, Speed, & Calleigh. It's taken some time, but I do feel there's a developed bond now between H & Ryan, & H & Natalia. IMO, these things just take time, & it takes a few deep situations to really feel the characters are connecting.
I have the opinion that chemistry is something that cannot be faked, nor "created", but when it comes to typical co-workers/friends, I do think it takes some effort in scenes/dialogue. For example, I personally never saw a great chemistry with Ryan & Natalia, romantic or non (still don't see it romantic, never will), but after seeing the two paired up working more often, seeing them work as a team & able to rely on each other, it's done wonders for thier chemistry.
So, in this situation with Jesse & Horatio, at least at this point in time, I do think they just need some added "oomph" to thier scenes.......if we can't see it then, then scratch everything I just posted.
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but anyway, it's just some thoughts really...
I recently bought NYPD Blue the First Season just to see if it still stood as a first rank top quality program for me. I was not to be disappointed, however, not only did it, sadly, re-affirm my rather childish need to clip DC round the earhole for deciding to leave this wonderful program (the chemistry between him and his partner (can't spell his surname - sorry) was top notch), but I also saw some similarities between John Kelly and Horatio Caine.
However, for me, whilst John Kelly's less than squeaky clean image suited that character, it fails dismally for me when it comes to Horatio Caine - and I think it has to do with the formula of both shows as well as who the characters are and how they ontro'd and showed their "flaws".
NYPD blue was gritty and fairly realistic in terms of how it was shot, who the people were, and so on, whereas, for me, CSI Miami could not be further from that if they tried. Horatio Caine in comparison to John Kelly is truly comic book and therefore I have come to the conclusion that the reason I grew to dislike the Horatio Caine character, to the point that I stopped watching, is because the manner in which they intro'd Horatio's "flaws" was unrealistic and unbecoming for such a character.
...Also whilst John Kelly admitted that if he thought a scumbag like a rapist or killer they had banged to rights was going to walk then he would leave his badge and the consitution out of the room and deal with the problem until, it was implied, the perpetrator confessed. However, we never saw him do that, and that for me, was and is the big difference between Horatio Caine and John Kelly and it is an important difference- because there is an incredible gulf between talking about it and atually doing it that makes a character either acceptable or unnaceptable for me.
John Kelly may have said he'd leave his badge and consitution out of the room and we may also have believed the character, but because we never saw him do that there is always the possibility that when it came to the crunch, he might not have resorted to such an act. Whereas with Horatio Caine, whilst it has been demonstrated that his thoughts were on the same line as John Kelly's, the sad thing is, he has actually acted on them, and that's what makes the character unacceptable for me.
It's a shame really because at one time I absolutely adored the Horatio Caine character and DC's acting in both shows was top notch (I have no idea what it's like today as I've not watched CSI MIami since I think the middle of Season 6?). I have to say that I much prefer DC's actng in NYPD Blue, but he still brought something else to the Horatio Caine character, until they started to introuce simlarities between the Kelly and Caine characters.
Oh well, just some thoughts really.. I wish DC had stayed with NYPD Blue, but then would we have had him in CSI Miami?
Haven't seen much of NYPD Blue but from what I did see David did a really great job as John Kelly. He's excellent as Horatio Caine too, although he was his best in seasons 1 & 2. I like Caruso as an actor but one thing that I don't like is how Horatio speaks in such a low tone these days. He used to be more energetic as well.
Delynn
CSI Level One
:lol: Can't blame a girl for trying to explore her favorite character a little more.
delynn said:
I agree. I think in the beginning the person Horatio was closest to was Speed. I don't think he's ever quite recoved from Speed's death. I miss the dynamic they shared.
While I think Horatio is still somewhat close to Eric, I don't think they are as close as they once were. I don't feel any connection at all between Horatio and Calleigh any more. The actors should be complimented that the closeness of these characters was so apparent and the connect easy to see in the early seasons. It's too bad that for some it appears to be gone for good.
Since Ryan and Natalia joined the team, they've each had a couple of defining moments with Horatio that deeped the trust and the bond.
One of my favorites scenes ever is between Horatio and Natalia at the end of "Internal Affairs". Horatio being there for Natalia while she grieved for Nick was classic Horatio. I'm a hard old broad, but when Natalia laid her head on Horatio's shoulder, that was an "awwww" moment for me.
In fact when Nick started causing Natalia grief, both Horatio and Eric stepped up and stood with her. Since then Horatio and Natalia just seem to have a deeper understanding and respect for each other. Horatio softens the most when he is with Natalia.
While a lot of people think that Horatio uses Ryan sometimes, I see it from a different perspective. I think Horatio sees himself in Ryan a lot of the time. Ryan has certain been refered to as a "Mini-H" on numerous occassions by fans.
Ryan has come a long way since he first started with the team and while he's had issues, like everyone on the team at one time or another (Ryan just seems to receive harsher penalties), he's taken what's been thrown at him and landed on his feet. A very "Horatio" like quality.
It was Horatio who tried to help Ryan when the gambling situation came up. And it was Ryan's stubborness and rejection of that help that cost him his job. And still Horatio didn't give up on him. When Ryan was fired, it was Horatio, Natalia and Alexx who hung in there with him. Horatio worked to get him back and in the mean time provided him with a protection job to help him out. That, to me, indicated a lot of trust in Ryan's abilities.
I saw Horatio asking Ryan to help him fake his death as showing the ultimate trust in Ryan. While I'm sure that Horatio was protecting Eric somewhat by not asking him, I think not asking Eric to help was more an acknowlegment of Horatio's understanding that Eric was incapable of helping him. Eric's stuggling at that time would certainly not have been lost on Horatio.
I think there is a mutual respect between Horatio and Ryan that is unique to them. Until Kyle appeared, I always thought Horatio treated Ryan more like a son then anyone on the team. I was thrilled when I saw Ryan step up for Kyle during the explosion in the lab. It just seems so right that Ryan was the one who was there for Kyle if Horatio couldn't be.
I have the opinion that chemistry is something that cannot be faked, nor "created", but when it comes to typical co-workers/friends, I do think it takes some effort in scenes/dialogue. For example, I personally never saw a great chemistry with Ryan & Natalia, romantic or non (still don't see it romantic, never will), but after seeing the two paired up working more often, seeing them work as a team & able to rely on each other, it's done wonders for thier chemistry.
So, in this situation with Jesse & Horatio, at least at this point in time, I do think they just need some added "oomph" to thier scenes.......if we can't see it then, then scratch everything I just posted.
I think in a few cases you get that rare immediate chemistry. Duchovny and Anderson certainly had/have it. They are probably to best example.
But for others it is something that is gained with time and shared experiences. I don't think we're getting to see Horatio and Jesse work together as much as we should to establish the basis of their relationship. These two are supposed to be friends for years and yet we've seem little or no appearance of any intimate knowledge of each other.
Perhaps that will come with the "LA" episode coming up!
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redanemone
Rookie
Delynn thank for putting that into the words i coukdn't quite find, and i agree with u wholeheartedly. i don't remember where i read this, but in an old interview with DC he said he saw H as a man who came by his wisdom the hard way. that he views H as a guy who was hot headed and ended uo making a lot of mistakes. Ryan seems to fit the same bill, which is y i think H was still willing to go to bat for him after all Ryan did.
BauerAlmeida
Rookie
I feel like the writers made this big deal of Jesse being more than just a newbie replacement, that he was a long time friend of Horatio's but they never put much substance or depth in their scenes together. Sure there were a few times when I thought that because they were friends, it was much more easier for Jesse to speak up or speak his mind, that he isn't afraid of doing something wrong as much as the others. But the writers never gave Jesse and Horatio much room to grow. Their scenes were mostly work and case stuff.Season 8 Premiere "Out of Time" and second episode "Hostile Takeover" were the only times when I thought that showed Horatio and Jesse certainly being more at ease with one another like long-time friends. I even remember saying that their chemistry was pretty awesome for their first time outing together. Since then, it became rather dull. I think Horatio and Jesse could have great chemistry if the writers bother to put them in more scenes together with more substance than just asking about the work. The upcoming episode "LA" would be the perfect time to let Horatio and Jesse's friendship take the fore-front, to show that they are old friends, and not to mention that Horatio too lost a wife to violence, so some comfort scenes would be nice.I do agree that chemistry is something that you can't create, and many times chemistry is either instant or it develops over time. There are television casts out there that just sparks instantly, most notably for me is USA's White Collar, Matt Bomer and Tim DeKay as the two leads clicked instantly from the first scene they have together, their amazing chemistry is what keeps the show going so strong. I think for Jesse and Horatio, there were definitely sparks in the beginning, I was sure that Eddie and David could pull off some great chemistry, but the writers are not utilizing it at all. If they would just give the two some more in-depth and meaningful scenes, give the relationship a chance to develope more, maybe we would actually see something great. I feel like this is more of a case of the writers dropping the ball on this than the actors not having chemistry. BTW, I can see why all those poor victims like it when Horatio hugs them.....David Caruso gives the best hugs!
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redanemone
Rookie
Lol that one was great but i can't bring myself to vote for some reason.
i agree with ur opinion on 8.1, but his line about giving in and being with marisol made me worry. that sounded an awful lot like a death wish to me.
i agree with ur opinion on 8.1, but his line about giving in and being with marisol made me worry. that sounded an awful lot like a death wish to me.
OK what is it with Parade magazine/website? they have a tribute to Hollywoods Celebritys with RED HAIR in honor of St Patrick's day whatever-so I click on all 14 pictures and hey NO SURPRISE WHERE IS David C?????? what an oversite as usual-no respect for the ones who deserve it...sorry for the rant...
Delynn
CSI Level One
Doesn't surprise me. It says more about whoever put the list together than it does about David!
INACTIVEQuinn Fabray
Lab Technician
That's upsetting...
Doesn't surprise me. It says more about whoever put the list together than it does about David!
inthewind
CSI Level Two
That's upsetting...
Doesn't surprise me. It says more about whoever put the list together than it does about David!
It wasn't just David who was ignored. No men were on the list.