Horatio/DC #15: 'Back To Basics'

[ruby&theheadmen]

IHMO, Kyle is simply too old to bond with Horatio as a son. He's a grown man with a very troubled past- the best they can hope for is to be friends. Horatio should have done his fatherhood bit helping to raise Madison and Ray Jr. (I'll bet the little red haired girl has his winning personality *cuteness*).


But as for another Miami/NY crossover I too, would pay money for that; It would also give TPTB a chance to bring Rick back too. After all, Rick's the only outsider/insider that knows practically the whole truth of what happened and it would be nice if DLS was redeemed out of this phony' bad cop' story line and situated up in New York upon hearing about news about something brewing around Horatio's past.
Yes indeed, it would be nice to see the two Davids interacting again.....

 

[Court]

IHMO, Kyle is simply too old to bond with Horatio as a son. He's a grown man with a very troubled past- the best they can hope for is to be friends. Horatio should have done his fatherhood bit helping to raise Madison and Ray Jr. (I'll bet the little red haired girl has his winning personality *cuteness*).

While I don't agree without you about the whole Kyle-thing, I do agree with you about wanting to see more of Madison and Ray Jr. It's so unfortunate that the writers and TPTB don't believe in this little thing called "continuity." :shifty:

 

[Ajbuckly]

IHMO, Kyle is simply too old to bond with Horatio as a son. He's a grown man with a very troubled past- the best they can hope for is to be friends. Horatio should have done his fatherhood bit helping to raise Madison and Ray Jr. (I'll bet the little red haired girl has his winning personality *cuteness*).

While I don't agree without you about the whole Kyle-thing, I do agree with you about wanting to see more of Madison and Ray Jr. It's so unfortunate that the writers and TPTB don't believe in this little thing called "continuity." :shifty:

IMHO the two storylines is there to let Horatio as a character show more deept and nuance. Givening actor and fans more to relate to. Whether or not it works, is in my opinion a writters problem. In rl it is not unheard off that even aduelt men find someone who becomes like a father to them and Kyle wasn´t that old when they reconnected. For the character to "raise" a younger child might be to difficult for writers to handle. When would he be able to leave for the things that makes every day in a small childs life? .....But my whole point i: It comes down to the writers which storyline work or not.

 

[Delynn]

IMHO the two storylines is there to let Horatio as a character show more deept and nuance. Givening actor and fans more to relate to. Whether or not it works, is in my opinion a writters problem. In rl it is not unheard off that even aduelt men find someone who becomes like a father to them and Kyle wasn´t that old when they reconnected. For the character to "raise" a younger child might be to difficult for writers to handle. When would he be able to leave for the things that makes every day in a small childs life? .....But my whole point i: It comes down to the writers which storyline work or not.

In the words (whine) of my granddaughter's favorite cartoon character, "Oh maaaaannnnnn!" (Swiper on Dora the Explorer).

If we have to leave it up to the writers on THIS show we are effectively screwed. I'm sorry, but the writers on CSI Miami leave a whole lot to be desired on their best day ... and continuity and building stories based upon basic character traits, roots and personality is NOT their strong points.

I doubt that any of them even KNOW where these "core characters" started. I'll bet if you ask any of this current group of writers who Ray Jr. and Madison are they couldn't tell you.

These writers don't know squat about the backgrounds of the characters they write for and they certainly have proved they don't have the ability to incorporate past stories for character experiences into the present day character with anything resembling success.

Nope. Sorry. I just can't put my trust in the writers on this show or the person running this circus. They've thrown the show under the bus ... and Horatio was one of the first characters they betrayed (although he's be coming back to himself - but I'm not sure WHO to credit for this since the improvement certainly isn't all inclusive by any means) ... and I still haven't been able to figure out why.

 

[bill_az]

These writers don't know squat about the backgrounds of the characters they write for and they certainly have proved they don't have the ability to incorporate past stories for character experiences into the present day character with anything resembling success.

The funny part of this is that they wrote the backstory for Horatio.

The writers have gone to great lengths to construct Horatio's past--time in NYC, undercover fathering Kyle, his brother may or may not be a crooked cop, and may or may not be dead, even going to S8E1 where they go to pains to make a connection with Horatio and Jesse.

The problem, as I see it, is that the writers don't know how to use his backstory to good effect. They took a burgeoning relationship with his son...and promptly dumped him into the military. Huh? Horatio's relationship to the NYPD has never been fully flushed out (at least, not to my satisfaction). Why did he and Stetler hate each other so much?

Everyone seems to have to come out of the woodwork and try and take H down, whether it's killing his wife, having his other wife break into the lab with a gun, kid steals a boat and runs drugs, there's no subtlety. Horatio has developed an impenetrable exterior, while sh** and demons from his past bounce off it like a tennis ball. And at the same time, the small bits of his internal monologue are written out of the story in favor of more bullets, outrageous scenes and lip service to real crime-solving.

I think back to one of my favorite series, MASH. Each character there had a backstory, most of them far more superficial than Horatio's. But I can still remember why Hawkeye's Dad gave him that name, that Col. Potter's wife was Mildred, Radar's family lived in Ottumwa, IA, etc, etc., and we never even saw these people or heard from them except in letters.

I mean, heck, how about a show where H has a really bad cold, and has to debate whether to sneeze on a crime scene and compromise it, or wear a surgical mask and look a little less than uber-cool. Now that would be back to basics!

 

[daisymay]

Only thing I want to add here is that I'd far rather not see Madison and Ray Jnr. again. I really don't want to hurt any young actor's feelings, but they're just not attractive enough to have come from the parents they're supposed to have.
As for H's renowned rapport with children, I don't think it's any different to his usual gentleness with other victims, and I think it probably ends when a case ends.

 

[Delynn]

The funny part of this is that they wrote the backstory for Horatio.

Yes. They did.

But that backstory was written by a much better group of writers from the past, not the current bunch. The current group of writers are the one's responsible for mucking up what the earlier group of writers so carefully constructed for these characters. The earlier writers knew and truly cared about these characters (seasons 1-3). Since season 4 it's like the writers don't know who these characters are.

The writers have gone to great lengths to construct Horatio's past--time in NYC, undercover fathering Kyle, his brother may or may not be a crooked cop, and may or may not be dead, even going to S8E1 where they go to pains to make a connection with Horatio and Jesse.

The problem, as I see it, is that the writers don't know how to use his backstory to good effect. They took a burgeoning relationship with his son...and promptly dumped him into the military. Huh? Horatio's relationship to the NYPD has never been fully flushed out (at least, not to my satisfaction). Why did he and Stetler hate each other so much?

Great questions and great examples. Any or all of those instances you've mentioned would make a great story for Horatio.

Everyone seems to have to come out of the woodwork and try and take H down, whether it's killing his wife, having his other wife break into the lab with a gun, kid steals a boat and runs drugs, there's no subtlety. Horatio has developed an impenetrable exterior, while sh** and demons from his past bounce off it like a tennis ball. And at the same time, the small bits of his internal monologue are written out of the story in favor of more bullets, outrageous scenes and lip service to real crime-solving.

Well, there has been some improvement with Horatio in the last season and a half. At least he's not shooting at everybody and everything that gets in this way these days. But he's still impossible to physically injure and while he can be emotionally hurt there is no one in his life that can help us to see the manifestation of that emotional toll.

The writers on this show just don't know how to write for a character like Horatio.

I think back to one of my favorite series, MASH. Each character there had a backstory, most of them far more superficial than Horatio's. But I can still remember why Hawkeye's Dad gave him that name, that Col. Potter's wife was Mildred, Radar's family lived in Ottumwa, IA, etc, etc., and we never even saw these people or heard from them except in letters.

I guess I've never thought about it, but you're right. I know everything about the characters on MASH. But the writers on MASH were consistant and cared about staying honest to their characters - and they were very, very good.

I mean, heck, how about a show where H has a really bad cold, and has to debate whether to sneeze on a crime scene and compromise it, or wear a surgical mask and look a little less than uber-cool. Now that would be back to basics!

:guffaw:

 

[ruby&theheadmen]

Only thing I want to add here is that I'd far rather not see Madison and Ray Jnr. again. I really don't want to hurt any young actor's feelings, but they're just not attractive enough to have come from the parents they're supposed to have.
As for H's renowned rapport with children, I don't think it's any different to his usual gentleness with other victims, and I think it probably ends when a case ends.

Sorry to disagree but, I have to stand up for one of my favorite characters- little (or older now) Madison was/is as attractive as they come . She should have been Horatio's little girl (well not with Suzie perhaps, but heck, no way with villainess Julia, who was eased lamely out that role by blaming it on a mental disorder!:scream. I saw in Madison's solemness and silent love a glimmer of what H was probably like as a child himself and I would have liked to have seen her reveal herself to him and blossom. It would have been a treat to see a female version (thankfully, without the abuse that Horatio suffered) of H develop and take form and shape as a personality. In any case, Horatio has always made bonds with all the youngsters that seem to need him and makes those bonds for life- any review of past episodes, with children and Resden's victim, who grew up under Horatio's gentle, watchful care would prove that.

Ray Jr. did grow from a cute child to a gangly youth, but that's okay- adolescence isn't always easy. The writers from the past gave Horatio a believable family- the crop that spawned Julia and Kyle just stomped on it on that and mangled it horribly!

As for my opinion about Kyle, I have it because he's pretty much raised himself, having fended rather badly for himself until now. Given the modern era, why would he even allow another grown man, practically a stranger, to tell him what to do or how to do it? Ray Jr., on the other hand, was young enough and close emotionally enough to his uncle to be raised and influenced by him in major life decisions- Kyle is too old for that now.

A believable situation for the 2 of them is to be friends they're men- not a youngster and parent needing to be raised. Writers, are you listening? Please bring back Madison, Yelina and Ray Jr! :thumbsup:

 

[BethHK]

...but heck, no way with villainess Julia, who was eased lamely out that role by blaming it on a mental disorder!:scream.

Finally something I can agree with you on. :bolian:

I am totally a fan of the Horatio/Kyle storyline as it was BEFORE/WITHOUT Julia. I saw great potential in the story initially, it's why I started watching CSI: Miami in the first place. I understand how you feel about not liking Kyle/Julia because to be quite honest the story has morphed into something I barely even recognize as the thing that drew me in to the show. I am always intrigued by father/son stories, but I thought this one was a very unique and powerful story if only they had killed Julia off, or hadn't introduced her at all. :scream: I've always felt that they let her get away with murder and that is just... :brickwall:

I want the real Julia back so Horatio can take her and her hubby down... :klingon:

 

[daisymay]

Only thing I want to add here is that I'd far rather not see Madison and Ray Jnr. again. I really don't want to hurt any young actor's feelings, but they're just not attractive enough to have come from the parents they're supposed to have.
As for H's renowned rapport with children, I don't think it's any different to his usual gentleness with other victims, and I think it probably ends when a case ends.

Sorry to disagree but, I have to stand up for one of my favorite characters- little (or older now) Madison was/is as attractive as they come . She should have been Horatio's little girl (well not with Suzie perhaps, but heck, no way with villainess Julia, who was eased lamely out that role by blaming it on a mental disorder!:scream. I saw in Madison's solemness and silent love a glimmer of what H was probably like as a child himself and I would have liked to have seen her reveal herself to him and blossom. It would have been a treat to see a female version (thankfully, without the abuse that Horatio suffered) of H develop and take form and shape as a personality. In any case, Horatio has always made bonds with all the youngsters that seem to need him and makes those bonds for life- any review of past episodes, with children and Resden's victim, who grew up under Horatio's gentle, watchful care would prove that.

Ray Jr. did grow from a cute child to a gangly youth, but that's okay- adolescence isn't always easy. The writers from the past gave Horatio a believable family- the crop that spawned Julia and Kyle just stomped on it on that and mangled it horribly!

As for my opinion about Kyle, I have it because he's pretty much raised himself, having fended rather badly for himself until now. Given the modern era, why would he even allow another grown man, practically a stranger, to tell him what to do or how to do it? Ray Jr., on the other hand, was young enough and close emotionally enough to his uncle to be raised and influenced by him in major life decisions- Kyle is too old for that now.

A believable situation for the 2 of them is to be friends they're men- not a youngster and parent needing to be raised. Writers, are you listening? Please bring back Madison, Yelina and Ray Jr! :thumbsup:

No offence - we can agree to disagree, yes? Guess I'm just not very keen on children.

 

[mjszud]

Since this is the magic of television, I imagine if Madison were to return for a guest spot she'd have aged a good 10-15 years by now. I wouldn't mind an older Madison resurfacing, but it seems like alot of time has passed.....too much time, imo ...for them to jump in where that storyline left off.

As for Kyle/H. I don't see anything wrong with a father/son bonding at Kyle's age (I'm 35 & closer to my parents now than I've ever been before; I consider my Mom one of my best friends, but she is still "Mom").
It actually makes alot of sense to me -- he's at an age now where he can have a better perspective on life, & he now knows what is important - family and having a father around.
It's obviously too late to see the 2 throwing ball or giving piggy-back rides but they can still be "father/son". I think they've done really well with it so far, at least once Julia was out of the picture -- the character didn't appeal to me at all.

 

[redanemone]

I think 15 years is a bit of a stretch. Ten maybe, but not 15. Maddy was featured in season 2 and she was said to be 4 years old. Its been 7 years since then, putting her on the brink of full blown puberty. If, by some miracle, the writers do bring her back, I'd love to see how Uncle H handles his pretty little niece growing into a woman. One thing I don't want to see is TV's typical uber teenage rebellion. Quite frankly I've had enough of that.

I also think Kyle/H are right where they need to be. Dad has been a cop for decades, and Jr. has worked the M.E's office and seen combat overseas. I think the two of them can understand each other in a way that Horatio and Ray, Jr. can't. Of course, the time for the typical father/son bonding we've come to think of has passed, but thats not necessary for a man to connect with his son.

 

[ruby&theheadmen]

I've never been comfortable with Kyle basically on the same grounds as Daisy has about Madison and Ray Jr. The actor doesn't appeal to me and I didn't find his origins all that believable- Horatio marrying a career, sociopathic criminal and siring a child with her, with his keen instincts about good and evil (and Julia IS EVIL...) is just too way out of character- not even if he were an undercover cop and I don't think that H has ever let his libido stand in the way of his keen, moral sense. So I've never bought it. The majority here has. I stand by what I say, they can be friends, but Horatio makes a good parent and I would have preferred him being a loving, authoritative type of parent in a long, established, drawn out parenthood-type of situation, rahter than what is going on now. Therefore, I won't be watching any episodes with Kyle in it, he's not my cup of tea.

 

[redanemone]

Horatio and Julia were never married. That has been consistently misreported, it was never said in canon. They had a brief relationship before she split. Sorry to throw that in, but that has been one of my biggest pet peeves since that storyline aired.

 

[ruby&theheadmen]

Horatio and Julia were never married. That has been consistently misreported, it was never said in canon. They had a brief relationship before she split. Sorry to throw that in, but that has been one of my biggest pet peeves since that storyline aired.

I stand corrected. Still have the same opinions though. I still don't see H involving himself with someone like Julia no matter how seductive they were/are etc; under any circumstances. The writers blew this one, IMHO. They forgot that when Rebecca did what Horatio felt and warned her about being wrong, he dropped her- even though one could tell they had been far more than just platonic friends and workers in the criminal justice system...