Grade 'Personal Foul'

[eveninstarz14]

I am with you about how shows tend to ignore the homosexuality factor but honestly as for Danny and Flack I just don't see it. I see them as two best friends who always have each other to support. I don't want to see it any other way and that has NOTHING to do with the sexuality of the characters. I really enjoy seeing their friendship and their banter. That one episode (title?) where they were joking about Flack's girlfriend made me smile...so that is my two cents on the whole Danny/Flack relationship.

(This has NOTHING to do with my views on D/L, so please don't read this as me trying to bash anything anti-D/L )

 

[Kimmychu]

I'll only say the following:

Pride comes before the fall. It's damn easy to gloat and act like a pompous a-hole when it's still half time in the game, but there's one thing I've learned about fandom ... it has its way of making you eat your words and swallow your bile when the time comes.

So be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it and wish you never, ever did.

Oh, and Danny/Flack being nothing more than a 'fantasy'?

Well, no shit. Anyone who thinks a fictional ship/character/storyline ISN'T one seriously needs to get out of fandom, shut their computer and seek psychiatric treatment. Of course it's a fantasy, just like every other ship people support on the show is a fantasy, even Danny/Lindsay. The entire show is just a fantasy. And if people want to bring up, "D/L is canon so it's not a fantasy!!11!" or "TPTB loves us way more than you so nyah!1!!" or "D/L is my whole life so it's not a fantasy1!!" ... please to be referring to the second line of this paragraph.

By the way, I think it's insulting and very telling about people that said people are assuming homosexual relationships can't happen between characters on the show and can only be a 'fantasy for some people' while heterosexual one are just fine and dandy and more 'real' and 'better'. That's like saying gay people don't exist except in our imaginations simply because you can't imagine them. You can give me the whole, "I'm not against gay people! You can get married or whatever!" tripe, but yeah, the fact that there's even this mentality towards fictional characters shows me how narrow-mindedness and prejudice is as alive and well as ever.

Heh. Don't even get me started on the green monster lurking around.

 

[Faylinn]

eveninstarz14 said:

I am with you about how shows tend to ignore the homosexuality factor but honestly as for Danny and Flack I just don't see it. I see them as two best friends who always have each other to support. I don't want to see it any other way and that has NOTHING to do with the sexuality of the characters. I really enjoy seeing their friendship and their banter. That one episode (title?) where they were joking about Flack's girlfriend made me smile...so that is my two cents on the whole Danny/Flack relationship.

(This has NOTHING to do with my views on D/L, so please don't read this as me trying to bash anything anti-D/L )

Oh, I get it. People not liking it personally or not seeing it doesn't bother me (I don't particularly see Mac/Stella in a shippy way, for example--I much prefer them as friends and wouldn't want to see them together, certainly not at this point in the game), I just tend to get tweaked when it becomes 'Flack isn't gay.'

Of course he's not gay--he's bisexual.

(This makes me want to open a thread. Hmm...*thinks of how to phrase things*...)

Kimmychu said:

And if people want to bring up, "D/L is canon so it's not a fantasy!!11!" or "TPTB loves us way more than you so nyah!1!!" or "D/L is my whole life so it's not a fantasy1!!" ... please to be referring to the second line of this paragraph.

Truthfully, we don't get much of that stuff in here (at least, not on a regular basis). Like the fiasco with the lashing-out-against-reviews thread, I think it's safe to say most of the fans here regardless of their shipping preference are more mature than that--thank God.

By the way, I think it's insulting and very telling about people that said people are assuming homosexual relationships can't happen between characters on the show

Well, I think it's an insulting idea, but it's even more insulting that the networks agree. Gays are only victims or perps, doncha know.

 

[eveninstarz14]

Of course he's not gay--he's bisexual.

(This makes me want to open a thread. Hmm...*thinks of how to phrase things*...)

LMAO, that just put so many images in my mind :devil: Dear lord Faylinn you made me spit out my milk :lol: Hope you did open that thread, interesting what people think about this! :thumbsup:

 

[Faylinn]

:lol: I didn't mean a thread about Flack being bisexual, but a thread about non-heterosexuality on the show. I still don't know how to phrase things correctly, so it's still in my head.

 

[Kimmychu]

Faylinn said:
Well, I think it's an insulting idea, but it's even more insulting that the networks agree. Gays are only victims or perps, doncha know.

Seriously.

Hey, TPTB, you want to be truly gutsy and stand out? Try giving us stories and characters that aren't annoyingly stereotypical for once. Some of us are actually capable of comprehending complex development, ya know!

 

[Top41]

A thread about homosexuality on the show--or the lack thereof -- would be a great topic of discussion

Now, I find myself again wanting to understand where she's coming from but the 'alone' comment threw me a little. It doesn't really fit with her knowing about Rikki. If she did then I'd expect her response to Danny missing her to be along the lines of 'you can't have your cake AND eat it' (or something stronger). Then, if she doesn't know about Rikki and all she knows is that Danny has been pushing her away (as it seemed in that conversation) then surely him wanting to talk to her would make her happy?? The other issue that perplexes me is that WE know about Rikki, so that shifts me again into feeling sorry for Lindsay and while understanding why Danny did what he did, I still want to be a little mad at him.

And that's the most frustrating thing about the storyline for me--how undefined it still is. Were Danny and Lindsay actually a couple in both of their eyes? Did Danny cheat on Lindsay? Does Lindsay know about Danny and Rikki sleeping together?

The fact that none of that is really defined is both irritating and frankly, poor storytelling. The mystery is supposed to be in the cases, not the characters' relations to each other.

My big problem with things as they stand now is...okay, Danny and Lindsay are going forward together (at least it seems so). But if Lindsay doesn't know about Danny sleeping with Rikki, when is that going to come out? Is it going to come out? And if so, are we just going to be back in the same place again, with Lindsay mad at Danny all over again?

The fact is, if they were together--or even if she was just in love with him and he led her on a bit--she'd have a legitimate gripe with Danny over sleeping with Rikki. So why did the writers stick her with being angry over something that makes her come across as selfish and hypocritical?

 

[eveninstarz14]

^I think I finally understand what you are talking about with Lindsay being selfish, I feel so stupid for taking so long to understand what you guys have been saying. I still don't agree with it but now I can see where you are coming from. I agree they could at least make her angry for something other than Danny pushing her away. That was a really dumb move on the writer's parts.

 

[Top41]

^I think I finally understand what you are talking about with Lindsay being selfish, I feel so stupid for taking so long to understand what you guys have been saying. I still don't agree with it but now I can see where you are coming from. I agree they could at least make her angry for something other than Danny pushing her away. That was a really dumb move on the writer's parts.

Don't feel stupid--a lot of opinions have been flying around with regard to this whole situation. And it's just been poorly written--and for no reason, given that they had a legitimate reason for Lindsay to be mad at Danny (him sleeping with Rikki).

 

[dutch_treat]

JellyBelly said:
Now, I find myself again wanting to understand where she's coming from but the 'alone' comment threw me a little. It doesn't really fit with her knowing about Rikki. If she did then I'd expect her response to Danny missing her to be along the lines of 'you can't have your cake AND eat it' (or something stronger). Then, if she doesn't know about Rikki and all she knows is that Danny has been pushing her away (as it seemed in that conversation) then surely him wanting to talk to her would make her happy?? The other issue that perplexes me is that WE know about Rikki, so that shifts me again into feeling sorry for Lindsay and while understanding why Danny did what he did, I still want to be a little mad at him.

Top said:
And that's the most frustrating thing about the storyline for me--how undefined it still is. Were Danny and Lindsay actually a couple in both of their eyes? Did Danny cheat on Lindsay? Does Lindsay know about Danny and Rikki sleeping together?

The fact that none of that is really defined is both irritating and frankly, poor storytelling. The mystery is supposed to be in the cases, not the characters' relations to each other.

My big problem with things as they stand now is...okay, Danny and Lindsay are going forward together (at least it seems so). But if Lindsay doesn't know about Danny sleeping with Rikki, when is that going to come out? Is it going to come out? And if so, are we just going to be back in the same place again, with Lindsay mad at Danny all over again?

The fact is, if they were together--or even if she was just in love with him and he led her on a bit--she'd have a legitimate gripe with Danny over sleeping with Rikki. So why did the writers stick her with being angry over something that makes her come across as selfish and hypocritical?

Ever since PF I'm trying to come up with reasons for her behaviour too and thus far the only things I can think of is that the two times in this episode that Danny tried to initiate a talk between them didn't feel like the right moment to her (at work, 10.00 PM) OR (and I'm well aware that there's no proof for that) she is -unconciously- putting off the talk because of some kind of self-defence mechanism; she is a CSI and a cop and therefor she is trained to look at details and people's behaviour, so she could've very well have sensed that there was more to the way Danny treated her and acted than just his grief.

So to me, what others may see as selfishness, is her way of trying to shield herself from more pain, because she suspects that when they do sit down and talk she might learn more than she wants to know; hence her anger and the 'alone' comment, she's torn between wanting to work things out and her fear of being hurt again.

Her anger (frustration) may be more directed at herself for again struggling with her emotions and she feels alone because she knows that she is the only one who can make the decision what to do next.

---

I'd love to see a thread open to discuss homosexuality on this show - I have some opinions on the subject, but this thread is not the place to discuss that..

 

[JellyBelly]

But that is just my opinion.

Yes it is. And the whole D/F 'gay' thing is your fantasy, a fantasy shared by a number of people on this board but a fantasy nontheless!

(Not entirely a rant against this particular comment, but...)

We're watching a television show, so everything is 'fantasy', but anyway--Danny and Lindsay being madly-in-love from the moment she set foot in NYC, Mac and Stella being secret lovers, Flack having romantic feelings for Danny--anything like that is 'fantasy'. Flack/Stella is no more canon than Danny/Flack, etc etc. Theoretically, Flack caring for Danny is no less plausible than Flack caring for Stella, but perhaps I get grouchy when the "gay" angle is pointed out because the shows never seem to acknowledge that homosexuality does, in fact, exist for people that aren't victims or suspects. Sometimes The Gayz are attractive professionals, sometimes they are scientists or police officers or medical examiners. But I digress. [/rant]

Forgive me, but that tweaked a nerve.

Sorry for tweaking a nerve, but I like the fact you've started a thread on this.

By the way, I think it's insulting and very telling about people that said people are assuming homosexual relationships can't happen between characters on the show and can only be a 'fantasy for some people' while heterosexual one are just fine and dandy and more 'real' and 'better'. That's like saying gay people don't exist except in our imaginations simply because you can't imagine them. You can give me the whole, "I'm not against gay people! You can get married or whatever!" tripe, but yeah, the fact that there's even this mentality towards fictional characters shows me how narrow-mindedness and prejudice is as alive and well as ever.

Okay, just for the record I (as the poster of the 'Flack aint gay, it's a fantasy' comment; my comment was prompted by something that made me chuckle in relation to the other poster and their comment re. Flack being gay in much the same way as I would've responded to someone posting 'of course Danny's in love with Lindsay' or 'Mac obviously fancies Stella' - there's no of course or obviously about any of it. I have readily admitted being a serious fence sitter and tend to prefix or end most of my posts with 'imo/I believe/it looked like to me', that to see other's posting such clear cut statements such as 'Flack is gay' or any of the other statements about characters/their relationships that come up time and time again just intrigue me. Maybe I'm taking it all too seriously, but all I am guilty of is stating the obvious, not of making any sort of homophobic statement. I just wanted to be clear on that.

Of course it's all about fantasy and what's one person's fantasy is not necessarily another's (sue me for stating the obvious - again). Somebody posting about said fantasising does not automatically make them a homophobic idiot. I think it's an interesting topic for debate and discussion and will post more about my thoughts in Fay's new thread.

I for one am lucky enough to live and work in a City that is known for embracing diversity where people are generally accepted irrespective of sexuality, sexual orientation, race, disability etc - at least as much as any community can do that. That probably makes me far less sensitive than other people who face such discrimination and stigma within their own communities/countries.

In a nutshell I'm not sure if you were directly insulted by my comment (I couldn't quite tell with the reference to 'people'), but my beliefs and values are so far removed from said 'people' you described that I'm a little gobsmacked here. :wtf:

 

[Top41]

Ever since PF I'm trying to come up with reasons for her behaviour too and thus far the only things I can think of is that the two times in this episode that Danny tried to initiate a talk between them didn't feel like the right moment to her (at work, 10.00 PM) OR (and I'm well aware that there's no proof for that) she is -unconciously- putting off the talk because of some kind of self-defence mechanism; she is a CSI and a cop and therefor she is trained to look at details and people's behaviour, so she could've very well have sensed that there was more to the way Danny treated her and acted than just his grief.

So to me, what others may see as selfishness, is her way of trying to shield herself from more pain, because she suspects that when they do sit down and talk she might learn more than she wants to know; hence her anger and the 'alone' comment, she's torn between wanting to work things out and her fear of being hurt again.

Her anger (frustration) may be more directed at herself for again struggling with her emotions and she feels alone because she knows that she is the only one who can make the decision what to do next.

I think that makes a lot of sense and certainly fits with what we've seen from her, but I also think that in doing so, she's thinking of herself first and foremost, and not Danny. Were this an ordinary fight, yeah, it might be understandable, but she basically laid into a guy who is grappling with major grief and guilt for shutting her out. So to refuse to hear him out when he comes to talk is selfish, and it makes me doubt her claim that she's in love with him. Generally, when you're in love with someone, you tend to be caring towards that person and want to be there for them.

Again, if she knew about him sleeping with Rikki, that would be a different story. I'd get her anger, even if they weren't officially together. And I get what you're saying as to the reasons behind her reaction...but given what Danny's going through, I'd think if she really cared about him, she could put that irritation and anger aside because the sin she thinks he's guilty of isn't that terrible, and didn't merit the response she gave him.

 

[Surreal_44]

I have to agree with JellyBelly's assessment of Lindsay's feelings about Danny. I suspect strongly that Lindsay knows something is still not quite right with Danny.

I think I can explain the alone part of her conversation, too. Danny basically shut himself off from her. From what we've seen and heard, he's been avoiding her, he's rebuffed her, and at one point, he was actually a bit nasty to her. She's used to having him in her life, and lately, he just hasn't.

As many of you who don't like Lindsay have pointed out, she doesn't really seem to have any friends. Danny was her best friend and she lost him when he lost Ruben.

Again, if she knew about him sleeping with Rikki, that would be a different story. I'd get her anger, even if they weren't officially together. And I get what you're saying as to the reasons behind her reaction...but given what Danny's going through, I'd think if she really cared about him, she could put that irritation and anger aside because the sin she thinks he's guilty of isn't that terrible, and didn't merit the response she gave him.

How long is Lindsay supposed to coddle Danny? And how long is Lindsay supposed to wait for Danny to decide that she's important to him? Loving someone doesn't mean that taking crap from them, no matter the cause, is acceptable. Danny certainly didn't go easy on Lindsay in "Love Run Cold" when she stood him up, and they weren't even officially dating. We know why she behaved the way she did, and it's not an excuse for her. Danny certainly shouldn't be allowed to treat people badly without consequence because he's having a hard time.

I feel for Danny, I really do, but he's not been honest with Lindsay, and is still not being honest with her. He wasn't honest with Rikki either, and that just disturbs me.

Oh, and for a review of the whole episode: C

The case was kind of obvious from the start. It's another episode where I think I would have fired Flack (and now Danny and Lindsay) for being utterly oblivious and bad detectives for not figuring it out a little earlier.

The only thing that saved the episode was the Flack/Danny scene in the beginning, the cheerleader lip-print scene, and the interrogation where all three detectives looked slightly baffled and disbelieving over the lengths the cheerleader went to to get revenge.

On another note: Retribution killing is bad. Bad, bad. But the guy totally deserved it.

 

[Top41]

How long is Lindsay supposed to coddle Danny? And how long is Lindsay supposed to wait for Danny to decide that she's important to him? Loving someone doesn't mean that taking crap from them, no matter the cause, is acceptable. Danny certainly didn't go easy on Lindsay in "Love Run Cold" when she stood him up, and they weren't even officially dating. We know why she behaved the way she did, and it's not an excuse for her. Danny certainly shouldn't be allowed to treat people badly without consequence because he's having a hard time.

I get that, I do, and I do think she was justified in saying something to him. But why not, "I care about you and want to help you through what's going on" and not "I need to get over being in love with you"? Why not try to reach out to him rather than just shutting him down.

Danny did go easy on Lindsay in "Love Run Cold." He spoke to her kindly--he just wanted an explanation. And when she walked away from him after giving him only the very basics, all he did was call after her, "If you need anything, I'm here for you." Hardly a "Well, if you don't want to open up with me, I'm done with you," which is what she essentially said to him.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

I think I can explain the alone part of her conversation, too. Danny basically shut himself off from her. From what we've seen and heard, he's been avoiding her, he's rebuffed her, and at one point, he was actually a bit nasty to her. She's used to having him in her life, and lately, he just hasn't.

He hasn't been nasty to her. Not going to her with his grief does not equal nasty.

How long is Lindsay supposed to coddle Danny? And how long is Lindsay supposed to wait for Danny to decide that she's important to him?

There is no set time limit, but I would think if she's in love with Danny she'd give him more than a month to grieve for a child for whose death he feels responsible. How long did Danny wait for and coddle Lindsay? Again, if we're supposed to give Lindsay a break I don't see why you don't have to give Danny a break.

Loving someone doesn't mean that taking crap from them, no matter the cause, is acceptable. Danny certainly didn't go easy on Lindsay in "Love Run Cold" when she stood him up, and they weren't even officially dating. We know why she behaved the way she did, and it's not an excuse for her. Danny certainly shouldn't be allowed to treat people badly without consequence because he's having a hard time.

Loving someone doesn't mean getting pissed at them when they're emotionally vulnerable and going through a particularily rough time, either. Danny wasn't hard on Lindsay in LRC. He wanted an explanation for why she stood him up and wanted to discuss their feelings for each other. That's not asking much. Plus, she didn't even bother to give him a lame excuse, let alone tell him what was going on with her and he still put his feelings aside and told her he was there for her if she needed him. If that's not coddling someone, then I must be missing something. Danny hasn't treated Lindsay badly, he just hasn't treated her the way she thinks she should be treated. There's a big difference.

I feel for Danny, I really do, but he's not been honest with Lindsay, and is still not being honest with her. He wasn't honest with Rikki either, and that just disturbs me.

Danny didn't go to Lindsay for comfort. That's not the same thing as not being honest. Him making lame excuses for not having lunch with her is not being dishonest. It's plausible he did do the errands he mentioned between the time Rikki left and his shift started. We don't know the status of their relationship, so him not telling her about Rikki isn't proven to be dishonest although it may be in a future episode.

How was he not honest with Rikki? They both clearly stated why they slept together and what their relationship was. Again, we don't know the status of Lindsay and Danny's relationship so not mentioning Lindsay to Rikki isn't dishonest. He doesn't need to give the names and numbers of every woman he's slept with in order to sleep with Rikki.