Grade "Epilogue"

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Top41, Sep 21, 2009.

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How would you grade Epilogue?

  1. A+

    27 vote(s)
    21.6%
  2. A

    32 vote(s)
    25.6%
  3. A-

    10 vote(s)
    8.0%
  4. B+

    14 vote(s)
    11.2%
  5. B

    14 vote(s)
    11.2%
  6. B-

    5 vote(s)
    4.0%
  7. C+

    2 vote(s)
    1.6%
  8. C

    6 vote(s)
    4.8%
  9. C-

    2 vote(s)
    1.6%
  10. D+

    2 vote(s)
    1.6%
  11. D

    5 vote(s)
    4.0%
  12. D-

    2 vote(s)
    1.6%
  13. F

    4 vote(s)
    3.2%
  1. PerfectAnomaly

    PerfectAnomaly Resident Smart Ass

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    Oh yeah, that too! And her foster mother at present day was younger than she is at present day. :lol:

    ETA: In defense of Lindsay (yes, you read that right), going through the trauma of the shooting and realizing how badly her husband was hurt and having a new baby to take care of could have realistically opened her eyes and made her do a 180 with her attitude.
     
  2. meggzie

    meggzie Police Officer

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    I totally agree with what you said especially with the part about Lindsay. I hoped she would be different this year but the episode just changed her too much it was like she was a different person,I just can't see her changing so much in such a short amount of time maybe she did but i'm just not buying it.
    and that was one of the problems in the first place with D/L it was such a push/pull relationship,one minute they are barely speaking and we have no idea what is going on with the relationship the next they are couple of the year taking over the whole episode.I hope they don't continue like this.And I do agree that Lindsay still does not know danny ebough to know that he would lie to her to try and save her from worrying.
    Also about everyone walking on eggshells around danny and nobody is really reaching out to help him and get him to talk which is unusual and unfortunate I hope he talks to and leans on someone other than Lindsay in the season .
     
  3. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Or maybe she didn't change that much at all. I realize there were people who felt she was self-centered, selfish, etc, etc; but there were also people who felt she was the entire opposite of that -- and it's not like those people were pulling stuff out of thin air in order to see Lindsay that way. They were going based on their interpretation of what they'd seen onscreen. So it's not like her behaviour in "Epilogue" came completely out of left field. She's been caring and compassionate plenty of times before, even if she didn't handle Danny in S4 the same was she handled him in "Epilogue". I think there's a very simple explanation for that: growth. Which is natural for any character. And it's been two years since "Right Next Door"; how is it unrealistic for someone to grow in that amount of time?

    Yeah, I don't buy D/L as completely issue-free now either, but I really don't think Lindsay's sticking-by Danny in "Epilogue" has anything to do with their relationship being on a solid foundation. (Plus, I think there was plenty to indicate that they weren't on a solid foundation.) It's not about their relationship, it's about Danny being paralyzed. Their issues can be put aside for now in the face of that, and I think that's what Lindsay was doing. That's what she did after "The Box" and "Triangle", after she knew Danny wanted to be around for the baby.

    Being entirely fair, both Sid and Hawkes are pathologists, they specialize with the dead. Their being doctors doesn't mean they'd be able to pull out a random (let alone accurate) diagnosis of Danny's paralysis or how long it would last, not unless they actually specialized in that field and had examined Danny themselves. Which I think we can assume they didn't. We've never seen any of the other characters come up to them whenever they need a living diagnosis of X condition. Why on earth would Lindsay go to them?

    I agree that Lindsay probably isn't as optimistic or as brave as she sounds, but IMO she doesn't have to be, so long as Danny believes she is. And even if she was entirely self-centered before, I don't see how or why it's utterly impossible for someone to do a reversal of personality. She's had up to a year to change/grow, and the shooting alone could've been enough to cause a reversal in personality.

    On the Danny front, I agree we badly need to see him talk to someone other than Lindsay about the injury, just as we badly need to see Lindsay talk to someone else about -- well, anything, at this point. The only thing that seems completely impossible to me in all this is that if Lindsay's now able to reach out to Danny when he needs it, she'd be unable to do the same for anyone else.

    ETA:
    They still have to dig out the Italian part of her past -- presumably where her last name comes from. Either her dad shows up (or something is unearthed about him) or we find out she used to be married :lol: It's weird... at times, Stella really seems to be one of the most fleshed-out characters on the show, but she's so clearly still a work-in-progress.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2009
  4. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    yeah i thought that too, but then it's quite natural to be that way around someone whose injury has left them unable to walk (or indeed with any sudden disability) - it's very hard to know what to say or do, and i think that goes for CSIs as much as anyone. i'm hoping there will come a point where danny brings it up and tells them to just be normal around him. the exception i think might be mac - just as he's noticed that flack isn't right at the moment, i think he can tell with danny too. he was in the building when danny yelled at the girl and i'm sure he's aware of how bad it might be.
     
  5. Kreguba

    Kreguba Witness

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    When Melina was on Live! last Wednesday, she even commented on that. Regis asked her where the Bonasera last name came from, and Melina said she didn't know.

    Season one: She lived at St. Basil's until she was 18, never new her parents.

    Season three: Stella was in foster care for a while.

    Season five: She's at least half-Greek and studied under/was mentored by Professor P about Greece and I assume how to speak Greek.

    So maybe in season seven we'll find out something else about Stella. *shrug*
     
  6. symbeline

    symbeline Witness

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    We could discuss this for hours or even days :lol:

    I don't think Lindsay has evolved that much as you say, but I see your point. Problem is, the writing has been so ambiguous that even if you go strictly by what is canon you can always say that Lindsay's behaviour was justified at some points because there are enough holes in the storyline to support other theories. So you saw her as caring as compassionate where I saw her as immature, selfish and self-centered. And we both are probably right because so much has happened offscreen that it's difficult to state something as fact, just the bits that are canon.

    What I mean to say is that some people can understand why Lindsay is the way she is, so they see the character grow and change, but some others don't and the writing has never been consistent enough for me to accept that now she is so different and that's the end of the story. I have seen Lindsay change over the years, but I've also seen her repeat the same mistakes and behaviours, so I'm not completely sold on this new Lindsay because I still detect some of the old Lindsay under the surface.

    Hope that made some sense :confused:

    Well, they know more about this type of injury that Lindsay does. Plus, they are her friends, or at least colleagues. Why would she go? I dunno, maybe to have another opinion? To know what to expect and how to act? To confide her fears in somebody familiar?

    That's not real life, it's drama, so it's good to see some drama. And Lindsay would have something else to do, other than be with Danny in every scene.

    I didn't express myself correctly. I tend to ramble and rambling and mixing languages is a bad thing. :lol:

    Of course she can change. She can and she has to. But I don't believe she has really really changed that much. ;)
    C'mon, she didn't want to marry Danny because she didn't trust him and that was 4-5 months ago. Danny hasn't change that much so why would Lindsay be that optimistic and positive now? I don't think she has had the time to really absorb everything that has happened, so that's why I see that Lindsay is obviously acting like Danny needs to save her family, but she has to be breaking in the inside.

    Also, Lindsay doesn't react too well under stress, remember season 3? It's difficult to change the way you react to things. You can train yourself to avoid some situations and some reactions, but it's not something you can completely control, so if this situation worsens -which I hope for the sake of the show- Lindsay would reach her breaking point. She can only pretend that she's that strong for a while, even if she feels that the love she has for her family is what gives her strength. Stress is a very powerful emotion. It wouldn't be realistic that she acted like Superman. Well, Superwoman in her case :lol:

    And realistically speaking, first time moms tend to be very emotional and get stressed very easily --I don't have kids so I'm just speaking from what I've heard from friends and family-- so Lindsay can't possibly go on like this forever. She needs help or at least talk with somebody.
     
  7. 915

    915 CSI Level One

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    I just got a chance to watch it. Overall I loved it though I wish Danny would get a shave and a little bit of a hair cut, though he is still cute to me though too much facial hair. Also wished they hadn't jumped ahead of the time, would've preferred to see the immediate aftermath of the shooting instead of it all being in flashbacks. Still an overall good episode. Overall a B grade.
     
  8. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    No, I get what you're saying.:) And I can see how the writing on Lindsay has been ambiguous enough to allow several interpretations. Thing is, when faced with the writing in "Epilogue", to me it just makes more sense to assume the writers finally picked one interpretation and are running with it, rather than to assume they decided to Frankenstein her an entirely new personality.

    I mean, they totally could have -- they've arguably done it before. I'll admit right now that "Epilogue" didn't come as a surprise to me mostly because I figured the writers were running with the interpretation of Lindsay that I'd always been behind; though I know it came as a surprise to others. But you yourself said you still detected elements of the old Lindsay -- I did too, for the record, which makes me think it has squat to do with a personality change. She's the same as she's ever been; she just managed to step up to the plate for Danny. That has nothing to do with her personality. That has to do with circumstances, and whether or not someone has it in themselves to step up to the plate for those circumstances.

    If it's unrealistic that she was able to do that (step up to the plate, although I feel the need to point out that almost everyone I talked to in CSINY fandom was hoping/expecting she would), I'm still not sure that what you're taking issue with can be put down to her personality as you see it, as opposed to simple character growth. Even Conrad Ecklie on CSI has been able to prove himself during several crises, and I don't think anyone's about to argue that he's a totally-kind, compassionate guy :lol: Who people are vs. what they do, it's not always the same thing.

    While I agree it would help to see Lindsay interact with someone other than Danny in a scene, ...I still have to say that Sid and/or Hawkes couldn't have helped much. As far as detecting Danny's lie, neither would've been in a better position than Lindsay: if Danny told her (and possibly by extension, them) that his doctor said he had a 60% chance of walking, what reason would either Sid or Hawkes have had to refute that diagnosis? Danny's doctor most likely has a stronger background in the subject than they do.

    That's true (about her breaking inside), but I don't think it matters. Danny being in a wheelchair would be enough reason for her ultra-concern, since she obviously cares about him; him being there because he blocked a bullet that, for all she knows, was headed right toward her -- only solidifies that reason. It doesn't matter how much she trusts him right now. If he were a street-hobo she'd never met before, the situation would still justify her concern and her "optimist-front". Those two have massive issues, and I totally believe that Lindsay still doesn't trust Danny that much; but I can see why she might be putting that on the back-burner. His paralysis takes center stage, as it probably should. As for her optimism, yeah, I'm not sold on how much she buys into that. But again, I think it doesn't matter, so long as Danny believes she buys into it. That's what he needs now, more than he needs to be reminded of their massive issues.

    Yeah, it would be unrealistic for her to keep going like Superwoman without ever reaching a breaking point...but I'm afraid I don't see what your point is?:confused: If they handle this storyline right, then she'll obviously be breaking down (or preferably, turning to someone to vent) somewhere along the line. I fully expect to see that, and she'll have every reason to. I just don't see why they'd have to show her doing that right off the bat. Her eventually caving under pressure has little to do with her caring about Danny; and to me that seemed to what this episode was all about (at least, for both Lindsay and Mac). Additionally, it's obvious she's trying to do the right thing right now, even if later she caves under pressure.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2009
  9. Shica

    Shica Victim

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    I'm not sure if it has been discussed, but did anyone notice that Flack maybe should have shot Jake to stop him from shooting the other guy, but he could have frozen or something like that?
     
  10. 915

    915 CSI Level One

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    Yeah I thought that was weird how they just let Jake shoot that guy, they could have shot him in the arm or something to stop him or the leg. That way it wouldn't have been fatal or anything. It was weird how they didn't do anything to stop him.
     
  11. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    ^ i got the distinct impression that flack froze, or at least felt decidedly uncomfortable with the situation - he didn't look happy at all (not that anyone should look happy while pointing a gun at an armed man but you know what i mean)...
     
  12. Faylinn

    Faylinn Adam Fangirl Super Moderator

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    I haven't been keeping track of the conversation, but I just caught a few things as I was skimming down the page...

    Sid and Hawkes are both doctors - Hawkes worked in an emergency room before becoming a pathologist, so it's not like all he has experience with is dead bodies. And while it's true that Danny's doctor will know a heck of a lot more about what he's going through and his healing process, let's not forget that Danny lied to Lindsay about the chances of him walking again - which implies that she didn't know all of the details, even as his wife. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine her being curious if a doctor could give her some kind of insight into the situation or advice about anything. I'm supposed to believe that Lindsay has an infant and a husband who just found himself in a wheelchair and she has no doubt about anything and is holding up so perfectly under pressure that she can just smile and give on-the-spot pep talks about meteorology? I don't know, it's all just too neat.

    It might have been interesting to see her sort of turn to Hawkes, hesitate about asking something and then change her mind. Then Hawkes could ask what it was she wanted to say, and she could admit that she was just wondering if [insert action here] was the right thing to do with Danny - and she thought he might know since he's a doctor (and her expression would, presumably, make it obvious that she knows this was silly). At the very least, it might have been a nice moment for Hawkes to just smile back at her and say she's doing fine and that he wasn't the right person to ask those questions (which they would both already know, of course). *shrug* Super-WifeyMom!Lindsay just isn't realistic to me (especially after how the character has been written in previous seasons), and seeing her have doubts or question herself would have been more real IMO. I guess they could have her show doubt in a later episode, but I'm not holding my breath.

    I don't know about anybody else, but if someone I knew had expertise in something, and they happened to be a close friend, they'd probably be the first person I'd ask if I was doubting myself. If Lindsay is sharing Danny's progress with Stella in the hallway (in the second episode), I can't imagine it would be much different if she spoke to other members of the team. I know I would have a hard time not asking Hawkes some questions - he did go to medical school after all, and he'd know a bit about spinal injuries and things like that. Asking the actual doctor is one thing, but I might be more comfortable expressing doubt or worry to someone I know closely. *shrug* Maybe that's just me - I don't have any personal experience to base that on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2009
  13. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    No, I totally get all this...and I think if I were in a similar situation to Lindsay's, I would definitely prefer asking a doctor I knew about the crisis condition. And I think I would've paid to see a Sid/Lindsay or a Hawkes/Lindsay scene like that in "Epilogue"; it would've been thatmuch more interesting, realistic, and would've shown Lindsay forming other personal connections while she was trying to find out if she was handling things right (well, she's had moments with Hawkes already, but I would've paid for the Sid/Lindsay scene).

    But as a way of detecting that Danny had lied about his chances, I just don't think it would be at all effective. Had she turned to Hawkes with that specific question ("what are Danny's chances of walking again, really?"), he would have told her he wasn't the right person to ask, and I can't imagine Sid would've said anything different. At the very least, they wouldn't have had a reason to contradict the "60% chance" diagnosis that Danny was telling her about. It was weird that Lindsay wasn't with Danny when his doctor gave him his real chances, but there could be a hundred different explanations for why that was.
     
  14. Faylinn

    Faylinn Adam Fangirl Super Moderator

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    Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that she'd talk to one of her doctor friends as a way to determine if Danny's lying - what I meant was...maybe she'd ask as a way to reassure herself or maybe get a bit of insight that she doesn't have. Maybe ask if they had experience with someone that had a spinal injury and something small she could do to help, if something she was doing wasn't good, etc. If she's not at all of Danny's appointments, she might feel like there are a million questions she wishes she knew the answers to - and while Danny's doctors would be the best ones to ask, I could see her asking something minor when she's with Hawkes or Sid (especially if it occurs to her at the time because of the course of the conversation or something else that's happening).

    Like, say, Lindsay and Hawkes are processing a victim's bedroom and Lindsay looks thoughtful, so Hawkes asks what's on her mind - she starts to talk and then stops herself, and then when Hawkes says something like 'What were you going to ask?', she asks him if (in his professional opinion, of course ;)) it's likely she could do some sort of damage to Danny's legs during the night because (random example) she might kick him and she's afraid he'd be hurt without realizing it because of the decreased sensation in the lower half of his body. Or something like that. Something minor or random or even less of a big deal than that. (Oh hell, I'd pay to see her ask any of her colleagues their opinion on suggesting that she help Danny shave or if they think he'd get offended. :lol:)

    So yeah, I hope that made more sense. :lol:

    BTW, I want Sid/everybody scenes, like, yesterday. Especially Sid/Adam because the one scene they had was classic. Sid is definitely not a guy Adam is going to be comfortable around because they rarely interact and their jobs are pretty far apart - plus the dead body thing, of course. :p I'd love to see a quick scene of them in the elevator together, and the awkward silence. And then Adam tries to break the ice with a random (most likely hilarious) comment. And Sid would just look up from whatever he's reading (a folder or something) and make eye contact with Adam over the top of his glasses. Then maybe the elevator would open before they can say more than a few words to each other, and Adam looks relieved - and maybe Hawkes is waiting outside the elevator and shares an amused glance with Sid. Bonus points if he teases Adam about it later.

    Want. Waaaaaant. *makes puppy dog eyes*
     
  15. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Oh okay, I think I understand that -- like, asking around to Hawkes and Sid about how she could make things easier on Danny, or if there was any particular behaviour (physical or emotional or anything in between) that she should be on the lookout for, or something like that. Yeah, I really would've liked to see that too, especially since...well, I was proud and not-surprised that Lindsay was able to be there for Danny this time, but it did seem really strange that she was apparently able to say all the right things, at the right time, with no stumbling over her words or flubbing what she was trying to say....I guess I can see how that would've come off unrealistically, given her previous behaviour. When it comes to actually reaching out to people, she's awkward at best, IMO. And it would've come off more solidly if we'd seen her talking to someone about how she should deal with Danny first. Moreover, it would've helped because Danny wouldn't have been the only person Lindsay talked to all episode :scream:

    I think the most realistic part of that "comfort" sequence was when she seemed to hesitate momentarily before deciding to go after Danny when he left the A/V room (it was brief because the scene had already started to fade out, but I did notice her hesitate and then sort of nod before she headed after him). That's where I recognized S4!Lindsay -- for a second, I thought for sure she wasn't going to go after him at all. So I figured that was the writers' nod to realism. I felt like she had to build her nerve up a bit before she went to talk with him, and it would've helped if we'd seen someone tell her what she should say if a situation like this ever arose with Danny.

    This is the sort of scene I would've honestly paid a lot to see in "Epilogue" :p Especially about the shaving -- Danny wears the "going-through-hell" look very well, but it needs to go soon :lol: It would've been perfect if we'd seen some hint of Lindsay talking to someone else about being unsure with Danny, even if only to get an idea of how she was able to deal with him later in the episode.

    It's absolutely criminal that Sid barely got a 2-second cameo in "Blacklist" :brickwall: That had better not be something that's going to become a trend, because I'm demanding Sid/anyone scenes too! And I can totally picture the Sid/Adam elevator scene -- I loved the one that they did have (it was "Child's Play", wasn't it? 'Cause Adam was asking Sid to back him up with this theory he had, and Sid kind of gave him this look :guffaw:). I dunno -- I can see how Adam might be awkward around Sid because of their jobs, but that would provide so much hilarious potential...I wish they'd explore this dynamic a bit more, because I think it'd be absolutely adorable. Not just going from their one scene, but also from the whole "eldest guy on the team/youngest guy on the team" kind of grandfatherly gimmick. I so think Sid would find Adam's awkwardness the perfect outlet for all his creepy stories :lol: And we haven't heard any of those stories for....waaayy too long.

    What really gets me is that we know Adam goes to Sid more times than we've actually seen, because I've heard him mention "Sid says..." or "Sid found...", and I weep because why don't we get to see that??
     

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