Eric/Calleigh storyline -- why we dislike it. Part 2 **spoilers**
- Thread starter mjszud
- Start date
Grissom rules
CSI Level Two
I'm worried for next season about two things regarding Eric's return.Obviously my main concern is his developing relationship with a woman whose name was Calleigh overshadowing the other actors of the show who are waiting for a good storyline for such a long time(especially Ryan,Natalia and Frank who has become practically invisible in the past few seasons).In addition I'm wondering how on earth are they going to involve their huge cast of actors in each episode(we're talking about 9 regular characters).
I wish next season we have less E/C drama(although I expect to see the opposite).
I wish next season we have less E/C drama(although I expect to see the opposite).
greatfan
Captain
You obviously missed the facts and evidence,there's a lot more than one response there.
I think all of us here are wishing for the same thing. I would like to see a whole lot less,like none.
When they brought Jake back recently. My feeling was "here we go again", Calleigh going through emotional upheaval and in the end she will run to Eric and they'll be each other's band aid.
CSI Miami is run on a soap opera basis, and E/C is their idea of supercouple, with Jake and other outsiders as the epitome of bad doers who come in between them.
I mentioned this in the moving to Sunday thread, that it has abandoned the formula of a crime fighting team, and that the incompetence of the writers are the blame for the results. Which I stand by my theory.
CSI Miami is run on a soap opera basis, and E/C is their idea of supercouple, with Jake and other outsiders as the epitome of bad doers who come in between them.
I mentioned this in the moving to Sunday thread, that it has abandoned the formula of a crime fighting team, and that the incompetence of the writers are the blame for the results. Which I stand by my theory.
MiamiWolfe
Pathologist
And I completely agree. E/C is killing the show. If they don't return to what made the show popular and feature the other talented actors in the episodes and listen to the WHOLE fan base and not just a select vocal few, the show will tank and tank quickly.
Sunday night is tricky with the NFL delaying the start of the Sunday night line up for anywhere up to an hour. No one will even try find the show if they know they are going to be fed the same garbage week after week, and this will be especially true for us hard core fans who want our favorites to be seen, and constantly being frustrated when they are shoved into the background.
Jag Lady
Lab Technician
I think ya got it pretty much covered, Jag Lady! There is a reason you are one of my favorite fanfic authors!
Thanks, DeLynn (smile)
As far as nothing panning out for Adam, I have a couple of suspicions.
A) He's already been typecast. The whole world knows him as Delko now, and nobody will ever want to see him play any other character. That's going to be the death of his acting career, I'm afraid.
B) How much did he want for some of those movie roles? And does he think movies are the same as TV? Ask Rory Cochran about how movies and TV are two totally different animals.
C) If AR and EP are starting to get egos, and it sure sounds like it, word's going to get out that AR is "difficult".
I fear the inmates are running the asylum at this point. The only time I watched S7 or S8 is when there was a character on that I liked (Kyle, Rick, Dave Benton). It's just gotten that dumbed down, and if I blink, I might miss Ryan or one of the labrats. I blame sloppy writing and that tptb are totally in the tank for E/C.
Case in point: in the "Dislike a Miami Character" thread I talked about how I thought Jesse was kind of bland. Personally, I think if Eddie Cibrian had more to work with, he could really shine. He made a great, GREAT unsub in Criminal Minds. But everybody's paying the price for this E/C-overkill. And I do mean EVERYBODY!
Unless I hear from hardcore fans that it's safe to come out, I won't waste my time with S9. Rick Stetler was the last straw. Not interested in "The Eric Loves Calleigh Show".
miamirocks
Lab Technician
I totally understand what everyone means when they talk about breaking up the "Team" spirit. I've posted this before, but one of the reasons I really liked CSI:Miami is b/c the team was like a FAMILY - they all looked out for each other and you could tell there was genuine affection between ALL the characters.
Calleigh was so great in those first few seasons, even during her relationship w/Hagen, which actually gave her a chance to flesh out her character. I didn't have a problem w/Eric being for her then b/c he was there as a concerned friend, not some guy in heat looking to "get some".
The way Eric and Cal look at each other now reminds me of two teens w/heavy hormones. It's very disrespectful to the characters, in my opinion, to reduce them to sex objects. They had so much more depth in the first few seasons, and even into Season 4 (I mark the "marisol" debacle as the beginning of the end of the TRUE CSI:Miami. I mean, it could've been a good storyline if it wasn't so strange and Marisol wasn't like 30 years younger than H ... that story didn't flesh out H's character - it was just ... weird. Anyway, sorry, a bit OT).
So, yes, it's annoying to watch Eric bolt straight to Cal's aid when the ENTIRE LAB is in trouble and see him holding her like a lost puppy dog - major soap opera drama - ugh! The whole E/C dynamic, when they changed it, really broke up the team. It's like they can't show concern for anyone but each other. I also believe this may've been connected to something I've always been annoyed about since Season 6 - Calleigh and Horatio never having scenes together. Hooking up w/Eric makes it easy to avoid having to put Cal and H together (why they did that I don't know, and I'm not speculating, I'm just stating the facts - they went 26 episodes w/out speaking to each other back in Season 5-6. There was a little improvement, from what I heard, in Season 7 & 8, but not by much.)
Anyway, the point of that is just to say that the TEAM as a whole has changed for the worst since the E/C relationship was exploited. Cal used to go to all the team members and talk to them - especially Horatio, which I always thought was sweet and could be seen even by non-shippers as a fatherly moment (think "Under the Influence" or even earlier when Cal was dating Hagen). I always liked that Cal had everyone's back, especially Horatio's, and it makes no sense now that she's throwing people like Ryan under the bus.
These "drama" storylines are so predictable now - Cal runs to Eric's arms, Eric runs to Cal's, but there's no dialogue or real in-depth exchange about the matter their crying about. I'll take the scene at the impromptu locker-room end of "Lost Son" any day to these lame, forced "no-mance" (really like that term ) scenes w/E/C. It's too much and it's disrespectful to everyone else on the show. I used to really like ERic and Cal individually, but now they're just annoying - it's like, "gee, I wonder when they'll have their "hug" in this epi" or "wow, look, Cal and Eric working together again! What a surprise!" What happened to protocal and professionalism? They really shouldn't work together AT ALL if they're dating! Ugh.
Anyhow - just had to rant. Thanks
Calleigh was so great in those first few seasons, even during her relationship w/Hagen, which actually gave her a chance to flesh out her character. I didn't have a problem w/Eric being for her then b/c he was there as a concerned friend, not some guy in heat looking to "get some".
The way Eric and Cal look at each other now reminds me of two teens w/heavy hormones. It's very disrespectful to the characters, in my opinion, to reduce them to sex objects. They had so much more depth in the first few seasons, and even into Season 4 (I mark the "marisol" debacle as the beginning of the end of the TRUE CSI:Miami. I mean, it could've been a good storyline if it wasn't so strange and Marisol wasn't like 30 years younger than H ... that story didn't flesh out H's character - it was just ... weird. Anyway, sorry, a bit OT).
So, yes, it's annoying to watch Eric bolt straight to Cal's aid when the ENTIRE LAB is in trouble and see him holding her like a lost puppy dog - major soap opera drama - ugh! The whole E/C dynamic, when they changed it, really broke up the team. It's like they can't show concern for anyone but each other. I also believe this may've been connected to something I've always been annoyed about since Season 6 - Calleigh and Horatio never having scenes together. Hooking up w/Eric makes it easy to avoid having to put Cal and H together (why they did that I don't know, and I'm not speculating, I'm just stating the facts - they went 26 episodes w/out speaking to each other back in Season 5-6. There was a little improvement, from what I heard, in Season 7 & 8, but not by much.)
Anyway, the point of that is just to say that the TEAM as a whole has changed for the worst since the E/C relationship was exploited. Cal used to go to all the team members and talk to them - especially Horatio, which I always thought was sweet and could be seen even by non-shippers as a fatherly moment (think "Under the Influence" or even earlier when Cal was dating Hagen). I always liked that Cal had everyone's back, especially Horatio's, and it makes no sense now that she's throwing people like Ryan under the bus.
These "drama" storylines are so predictable now - Cal runs to Eric's arms, Eric runs to Cal's, but there's no dialogue or real in-depth exchange about the matter their crying about. I'll take the scene at the impromptu locker-room end of "Lost Son" any day to these lame, forced "no-mance" (really like that term
) scenes w/E/C. It's too much and it's disrespectful to everyone else on the show. I used to really like ERic and Cal individually, but now they're just annoying - it's like, "gee, I wonder when they'll have their "hug" in this epi" or "wow, look, Cal and Eric working together again! What a surprise!" What happened to protocal and professionalism? They really shouldn't work together AT ALL if they're dating! Ugh. Anyhow - just had to rant. Thanks
Jag Lady
Lab Technician
You are totally right about the "family" and "team spirit" thing, Miamirocks. I likened the first few seasons of Miami like welcoming family into my living room for an hour.
Wolfe In Sheep's Clothing was a major, MAJOR disappointment because Jonathan Togo had a chance to shine, but by then E/C had so taken over the show that it was totally ruined, imo. In watching Eric and Calleigh berate Ryan I got the feeling I was watching a 7th grade clique rather than the old Miami-Dade Crime Lab I'd grown to love.
Hey Eric. While you and your hunnybunny were busting Ryan's chops (looks like he still had all of them), did it occur to you that she might have been doing Horse Guy right under your nose ("And They're Offed")? Now is that love or what?
Wolfe In Sheep's Clothing was a major, MAJOR disappointment because Jonathan Togo had a chance to shine, but by then E/C had so taken over the show that it was totally ruined, imo. In watching Eric and Calleigh berate Ryan I got the feeling I was watching a 7th grade clique rather than the old Miami-Dade Crime Lab I'd grown to love.
Hey Eric. While you and your hunnybunny were busting Ryan's chops (looks like he still had all of them), did it occur to you that she might have been doing Horse Guy right under your nose ("And They're Offed")? Now is that love or what?
Court
Prime Suspect
I am totally with you. The writers have made E and C so high-and-mighty, that they have forgotten that they are no angels themselves. Case in point: Calleigh basically altered evidence in Under the Influence when she told her father to take a drink before going to see Horatio about the possible hit and run or that Delko has not only broken the law (buying drugs for his sister may have been necessary for HER but it was still an illegal act), but he also screwed up countless times even BEFORE his head injury: For example, losing his badge during a random hook-up (the "toothing" incident) and said badge was later used in a murder.
It's incredibly annoying how they act like they have never done anything wrong themselves. Not to mention the fact that they have that "You're-not-Speedle-so-don't-ever-let-yourself-think-you-are-that-important-to-us" thing with Ryan. The way they treat Wolfe has ALWAYS been tough to stomach. Example: Resurrection. They were both SO willing to believe Ryan had a part in H's murder. They gave him NO benefit of the doubt and I found that incredibly traitorous on their parts, ESPECIALLY Calleigh's. :scream: Calleigh of old would never automatically assume anything.
This is why I like the Ryan, Jesse and Walter dynamic. They are all on a level playing field and you can see there is a sincere, genuine respect there. And let's not forget Natalia - she and Ryan have a good working chemistry (not necessarily romantic but I don't think that would be horrible either), they truly do have each other's backs.
If TPTB want to get back to a team harmony, that isn't going to happen if they keep writing E and C as selfish and unprofessional. If that's truly what EP and AR want, give them their own show, b/c this "storyline" is killing this one.
Grissom rules
CSI Level Two
I agree with you guys.Eric and Calleigh have treated Ryan in a very bad way many times.Perfect examples are Resurrection and WISC.The thing that frustrates me about these two is that they never seem to believe in whatever Ryan is telling them refusing to accept his point of view.
I don't care for E/C throwing Ryan under the bus. He never sought to impress them, or showed that he is the next Speed. He's just there to do his job.
I liked how Natalia, Horatio and Walter came through for Ryan as a team, when Ryan took the fall for somebody setting him up. This Ryan as a beat up toy needs to be over and done with. He has range as an actor and can use scenes of his talent. And speaking of acting presence, what in the world happened to Horatio? He is window dressing for the show.
I liked how Natalia, Horatio and Walter came through for Ryan as a team, when Ryan took the fall for somebody setting him up. This Ryan as a beat up toy needs to be over and done with. He has range as an actor and can use scenes of his talent. And speaking of acting presence, what in the world happened to Horatio? He is window dressing for the show.
Jag Lady
Lab Technician
I've been reading some of the "Why We Like E/C" posts, and I've noticed something. I am in no way bashing anyone. Just arriving at a conclusion from reading the different posts.
One person who likes E/C writes "Isn't it wonderful to have love in the middle of all that blood and violence?" (not word for word). Another writes, again not word for word "They should be able to get together if they want!" or "He's hot, and I bet she came home early to look at him!"
No regard for the fact that this is SUPPOSED to be a forensics drama. No regard for the fact that, as E/C was ramped up, the show itself was dumbed down, and talented actors were shoved aside to give it center stage.
On the other hand, posts disliking E/C for the most part are analyzing the show itself. Analyzing the "romance" itself. Going beyond the "shiny" surface. Taking a careful look at how the show was before and since E/C, and not just accepting it for what it is. Not so caught up in feelings, which change from minute to minute. Not sounding like kids on Christmas morning.
Your thoughts?
One person who likes E/C writes "Isn't it wonderful to have love in the middle of all that blood and violence?" (not word for word). Another writes, again not word for word "They should be able to get together if they want!" or "He's hot, and I bet she came home early to look at him!"
No regard for the fact that this is SUPPOSED to be a forensics drama. No regard for the fact that, as E/C was ramped up, the show itself was dumbed down, and talented actors were shoved aside to give it center stage.
On the other hand, posts disliking E/C for the most part are analyzing the show itself. Analyzing the "romance" itself. Going beyond the "shiny" surface. Taking a careful look at how the show was before and since E/C, and not just accepting it for what it is. Not so caught up in feelings, which change from minute to minute. Not sounding like kids on Christmas morning.
Your thoughts?
Court
Prime Suspect
Your observations are incredibly astute and very telling. One of the biggest problems is that TPTB clearly only choose to listen to ONE set of voices in the CSI:M fandom and have completely ignored everyone else. When you've invested time and money (those DVD sets aren't cheap, not to mention all the other CSI:M merchandise out there) into it, it kinda sucks to know that TPTB could give a flip what we think.
It's tragic that they took a smart, sexy forensics drama and sugar-coated with a "romance" storyline that watching is more painful than giving birth to an 11-pound baby without an epidural. At least for me, anyway.
silentdisco
Police Officer
I don't really feel the need to post in this thread (E/C shipper, yo), though I occasionally read it because I'm interested other people's opinions. But I'd like to address some things.
I don't think this is something anyone should be criticized for. Different people get different things out of watching the same television show. Last time I checked, there was no universal rule stating that someone is only allowed to watch a show if their reasoning falls under a rigid list of "acceptable" items, nor are they only allowed to discuss and/or analyze certain parts of the show. It's not inherently wrong for a person to watch a TV show for a certain reason, like a romance, an actor, or even just the scenery. Yes, CSI:Miami is "supposed" to be a forensics drama, but that doesn't mean that other aspects can't be enjoyed, or even enjoyed more by some people than the show's main purpose.
Also, keep in mind that the posts you read are in a thread that exists solely to discuss people's positive responses and reactions to the romance. If the posts centered too heavily on other characters and aspects of the show, we'd have mods coming into the thread reminding us that they were off-topic, and not to do it in the future.
Let me put it this way: if someone came into this thread and said they didn't like E/C because they "just didn't", would you criticize them for it? They're not analyzing the show, nor digging "deep". My guess is you wouldn't, because this person also dislikes the E/C relationship. Keep in mind that it's perfectly okay to like or dislike an aspect of the show, for any reason at all, no matter how "superficial" (unless, of course, the dislike for a certain aspect is rooted in racism, sexism, or is otherwise offensive and oppression-driven).
While you are entitled to your opinion, many people don't feel the same way you do. It's not fair to expect that posters in the E/C like thread (or in any other thread, really) should perceive everything the same way you do.
If you were aiming not to "bash" anyone, I don't think you succeeded very well. The implication that posters in the E/C thread are juvenile and immature is rather offensive.
I don't think this is something anyone should be criticized for. Different people get different things out of watching the same television show. Last time I checked, there was no universal rule stating that someone is only allowed to watch a show if their reasoning falls under a rigid list of "acceptable" items, nor are they only allowed to discuss and/or analyze certain parts of the show. It's not inherently wrong for a person to watch a TV show for a certain reason, like a romance, an actor, or even just the scenery. Yes, CSI:Miami is "supposed" to be a forensics drama, but that doesn't mean that other aspects can't be enjoyed, or even enjoyed more by some people than the show's main purpose.
Also, keep in mind that the posts you read are in a thread that exists solely to discuss people's positive responses and reactions to the romance. If the posts centered too heavily on other characters and aspects of the show, we'd have mods coming into the thread reminding us that they were off-topic, and not to do it in the future.
Let me put it this way: if someone came into this thread and said they didn't like E/C because they "just didn't", would you criticize them for it? They're not analyzing the show, nor digging "deep". My guess is you wouldn't, because this person also dislikes the E/C relationship. Keep in mind that it's perfectly okay to like or dislike an aspect of the show, for any reason at all, no matter how "superficial" (unless, of course, the dislike for a certain aspect is rooted in racism, sexism, or is otherwise offensive and oppression-driven).
While you are entitled to your opinion, many people don't feel the same way you do. It's not fair to expect that posters in the E/C like thread (or in any other thread, really) should perceive everything the same way you do.
If you were aiming not to "bash" anyone, I don't think you succeeded very well. The implication that posters in the E/C thread are juvenile and immature is rather offensive.
I think it's great that some people might like the romance and get excited about it, even the more superficial aspects. It's all a matter of perspective and personal preference; some people analyze the romance and how it's positively/negatively affected the show and others simply don't care to go deeper and take it on the surface for its entertainment value. At the end of the day, it's just a television show and an escape.
I know quite a few through IM and Real Life who don't analyze the show or the romance to support or explain their dislike for the relationship -- they blast characters, actors, take cheap shots, insult everyone who could ever love them etc. and say things like "why can't they see what I'm seeing? It's so obvious that it blows". Only looking at the superficial can go both ways, so I don't think it's necessarily unique to those who dislike the relationship to go deeper than what's on the surface. I've seen a lot of analysis and discussion relating back to previous episodes and development on other threads in support of the relationship.
That being said, it all comes down to how we see the relationship. I personally think the romance has affected the rest of the show like ripples in a pond and the effects have been more negative than positive (and there were a few things I liked). But it was more of a 'last straw' with me since I felt the show was going downhill way before the relationship officially began. Others might think it's the best thing to happen to the show and get excited over the little superficial things -- fine by me. I know I was like a kid on Christmas morning when Speed showed up and I'd post about how great his stubble was. :lol: It doesn't mean that I didn't understand or care about what impact the character had on the show.
I don't think any one group of fans has more merit or has a keener grasp of reality because they might/might not care about the cause-and-effect relationships between the show itself and the romance. Sometimes it's great to squee about the superficial, other times it's nice to have a meaty discussion. And like I said, I've seen both superficial stuff and analysis on both sides. To assume that one group is superior (and I'll say right now, that's what it looks like) because they go deeper is not only unrepresentative of those being discussed but it's why we lean toward keeping other groups out of it -- it has nothing to do with why one doesn't like the romance and mostly serves to infuriate others.
Besides, does it really matter if people get excited about the show? I thought that was a good thing.
I know quite a few through IM and Real Life who don't analyze the show or the romance to support or explain their dislike for the relationship -- they blast characters, actors, take cheap shots, insult everyone who could ever love them etc. and say things like "why can't they see what I'm seeing? It's so obvious that it blows". Only looking at the superficial can go both ways, so I don't think it's necessarily unique to those who dislike the relationship to go deeper than what's on the surface. I've seen a lot of analysis and discussion relating back to previous episodes and development on other threads in support of the relationship.
That being said, it all comes down to how we see the relationship. I personally think the romance has affected the rest of the show like ripples in a pond and the effects have been more negative than positive (and there were a few things I liked). But it was more of a 'last straw' with me since I felt the show was going downhill way before the relationship officially began. Others might think it's the best thing to happen to the show and get excited over the little superficial things -- fine by me. I know I was like a kid on Christmas morning when Speed showed up and I'd post about how great his stubble was. :lol: It doesn't mean that I didn't understand or care about what impact the character had on the show.
I don't think any one group of fans has more merit or has a keener grasp of reality because they might/might not care about the cause-and-effect relationships between the show itself and the romance. Sometimes it's great to squee about the superficial, other times it's nice to have a meaty discussion. And like I said, I've seen both superficial stuff and analysis on both sides. To assume that one group is superior (and I'll say right now, that's what it looks like) because they go deeper is not only unrepresentative of those being discussed but it's why we lean toward keeping other groups out of it -- it has nothing to do with why one doesn't like the romance and mostly serves to infuriate others.
Besides, does it really matter if people get excited about the show? I thought that was a good thing.
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