Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Faylinn, May 23, 2009.
i know, i was just being flippant, sorry
^No worries! Danny actually has plenty of detractors. I do enjoy reading the posts from people who don't like him--a lot of them have great points and interesting commentary on him. I love the character, but I know he's definitely got flaws (and can see how he would irritate some).
Well, I'm not calling her popular and/or effective just because of the "handful of fans". I'm calling her effective/popular because that apparent handful is supposedly dedicated enough to post on various different boards, under various different names, and make enough noise to be mistaken as a large following. That's rabid dedication. I know every character has their rabid fans, but I have yet to run into an Adam/Danny/even Flack fan who bothers with that much effort. That usually means the character's made a strong impression. As for DL, I can't say anything about that - but I doubt Flack/Lindsay, or even Mac/Lindsay would exist as "ships" with a fair presence in the fandom if all those Lindsay fans were only about the DL.
Polarizing debates are fine, she's inspiring passion either way. That to me says extreme effectiveness, as it would were she any character in a book/movie/whatever. Whether she was meant to be liked or not, she's clearly noticed a lot - attention-by-freak-accident happens all the time. People bother coming online and making a lot of noise about her, noise that gets heated enough for people to become emotionally invested. Like you said, the other characters have haters, but it's not nearly as big a deal (and accordingly, you rarely find as much noise about them).
As for actual popularity, I don't think the fact that a lot of people dislike her can detract from the fact that a lot of people like her. That's popularity.
Yeah, every character has a following, but rabid? Like, jaw-gnashing, ready-to-jump-on-the-first-person-to-insult-them-or-hurt-them-within-the
fictional-world, post-in-a-million-places-just-to-declare-love rabid? To be honest, on other sites, outside of Lindsay I've most commonly seen this level of dedication for Stella (not so much Mac or Danny, but then again I haven't really looked). And even that was on only two occasions.
Kay, good :lol: I didn't mean to imply that this was the only place people dislike Lindsay, because I've run into it in other places. But generally, the Lindsay-fans outnumber the ones who dislike Lindsay in those other places, which is what I meant when I said she seems fairly popular there.
If they honestly thought she wouldn't, Stella wouldn't have bothered asking her to give up vacation time - no matter how big an ass Lindsay would've looked like. I can see how some might view her as self-centered, but she's usually included in those team-efforts that require selflessness. Which might not say much about her individually as a character, but does indicate that her teammates aren't viewing her as self-centered.
From what I can tell, a lot of that is reactionary. People are so passionate about their love for Lindsay because there are lots of people out there who hate her. Mac fans, Stella fans, Danny fans--they don't tend to run up against a lot of opposition against their favorite characters. Oh, sure--a dissenter here and there, but not in the same numbers as those who dislike Lindsay. It's more rabid in response, IMO--if everyone liked her or was fine with her, I doubt you'd see that many passionate fans. Just my two cents--and not talking about all Lindsay fans of course. But when you see the same three people as the first to respond to any DL comment at any of the big boards... well, it feels kind of like a preemptive strike.
I've never seen a big presence for those ships, but I've always taken it as an extension of Lindsay's Mary Sue-ness--if people can self-insert into the character, they're naturally going to pair her with the guy they deem most desirable.
Again, I see it as more being reactionary to the massive dislike of the character. It gives people something to fight for and protest against.
Yeah, and each site is going to have its own unique community--I know at TWoP, Danny is not nearly as popular as he is here. Flack seems to be a big character over there. It's going to vary, naturally.
I don't think that scene was supposed to say anything about them individually--it was a Team Moment, meant to express unity and cohesion. It would have been weird if Lindsay hadn't been included, so they included her.
What's much more telling to me is how Lindsay treats Adam on a regular basis. And of course, her behavior when she's spotlighted--which tends to be selfish.
^ I don't think you can tell before hand how an audience will react to a character like no band can tell for sure which songs the fans will like -- no matter what was the intention behind the writing. And I think a lot of things with Lindsay have been "We never anticipated this and that" so I think it threw them off balance how strongly people reacted to her. The D/L thing for me was just a quick fix, Hello Kitty band-aid while they slowly readjust the character, and make her less.. inconsistent? unstable? There were attempts and Danny in a wheel-chair is probably one of those efforts.
Lindsay, do not fail the people that are putting hopes in you!!!! :lol:
Ah, I've been stressing this point for a while now! :lol: I can't wait to see if they're going to have a case of revenge-acting criminals to trouble Flack. Let's say it's part of my wishing list. I would have like an encounter with a friend of the executed man. Things were not played out that it would get known outside Flack and Danny but it would have been interesting. Though shit always gets out somehow when you least expect it...
It is boring unless they make him crash and burn. Let's not have a mini Mac :lol: One is enough! Flack love his job, he's a hard worker but he knows when to punch out, not get obsessed, have a beer with a friend and chill'z. Could he fall in alcoholism? Would I even want to see this happening, I don't know. I can't picture Flack falling into that kind of pattern. Though if he does, that could bring back his sister! And she could help him. I really want to see her back at some point.
I might be wrong here but... Lindsay did or still have the "I don't want to be the outcast" complex and she's not close to anyone in particular on the team. So I guess she could have did it out of not being left behind, let's be united. Still, her being not close with anyone doesn't mean she cannot stand up with her team. Some people do draw a line with their colleagues; they'll be united and all but they won't get too cozy.
For some reasons, that reminded how she talked to Adam when her water broke. I bet the pain of the contractions is unbearable, but still. He probably doesn't strike as the most accountable person but he ain't stupid either. A little bit more off-topic... I thought the conversation between Stella and Lindsay at the hospital just screamed awkward. It was so palpable that during the scene I was uncomfortable on my sofa :lol: Stella was being her understanding and nice self as usual but you could tell it was weird even for her that sudden outburst of "let's have girl talk while Danny gets here".
Yeah, but who would need to create various sockpuppet-accounts on who knows how many sites, just to do that? From what I've seen, like-minded fans in the CSI fandoms tend to stay on the like-minded boards, but the response still gets pretty passionate there (I still skirt around entire forums that seem to be all about the Danny-bashing since 4.16). Additionally, I would think a negative remark would grate whether you'd heard it once or a hundred times - and to be honest, I've seen enough hits against Adam and/or Sid to irk even me, though they aren't prevalent - but I don't see the same rabid response when it comes to those fans. Conversely, with the Stella examples I mentioned earlier, one person simply implied that Stella was their least-favourite CSI, and Stella-fans swarmed. But Stella's not really a hated character.
Yeah, they're not huge, but they have enough presence to be given well-known-enough ship names (FM Radio = Flack/Lindsay; MelTy = Mac/Lindsay --> don't ask me about that name, I dunno :lol that are used by their fans across the fandom. You could be right about the Mary-Sue insert, but that still sort of implies they're in the fandom/ship for Lindsay rather than the other character.
No, I agree it wasn't supposed to say anything about them individually (though I don't see why it can't - thinking of them as people, it still says a lot about each that they'd be willing to give up trips to Colorado/Europe/wherever-they-were-going to save a friend's job), but I think it would have said something very pointed about Lindsay's character if they hadn't included her. It would have shown that the other characters did assume she wouldn't be willing to give up her vacation for Adam.
And honestly, I have to say I find it more telling that Adam actually seems to like Lindsay, even though she doesn't treat him that well.
Yes, thank you! A good chunk of the criminals they face are acting out of revenge, I don't see how Flack is going to avoid that (unless, of course, TPTB carefully keep him away from the actual criminals who act out of vengeance ). I don't believe they're actually going to make Flack face either the Internal-Affairs-Bureau or even any of the other military men, but he just has to realize eventually how hypocritical it is to lock people away for acting out of vengeance when he did the same thing. So I don't see how comfortable it would be doing just that on an almost-daily basis.
Flack turning to alcoholism would be interesting for the Sam factor! (Well, so long as they don't make him too emo while he's at it.) I really want her back - before S5, they promised a lot more of her than we actually got to see. I don't see how Flack isn't going to crash-and-burn, because he doesn't seem to feed off and get energy from his work the way Mac does; but if they're going to do that, we'd better see it. I will not be happy if we get some two-second flashback scene where he debatably crashes. :shifty:
I saw awkwardness, too :lol: I thought it was interesting that Stella was even there at all (understanding and nice she is, but Lindsay is basically her subordinate coworker...it was hardly a requirement), but it was cool that Lindsay actually spilled something personal to her. She usually doesn't spill to anyone except Danny.
Saying that a few people making an effort to have a character appear well loved and viable translates into actual popularity and effectiveness makes no sense to me. I can post on 847 sites how much I love Hawkes and what an awesome character he is. The only thing it means is that he's made an impression on ONE person. It doesn't make the character popular or make him an effective character. Seven people posting on multiple sites about the awesomeness of Lindsay is still only SEVEN people. If anything that kind of behavior only draws attention to the fact that the character really isn't popular.
I don't see how having people comment about what a terrible character Lindsay is or how horrible of an actress Anna Belknap is shows the character is effective. And I think people become emotionally invested because they don't like having something they like criticized. I will also say that people become emotionally invested because Lindsay is a Mary-Sue and some fans self insert with her character so any criticism of Lindsay is criticism of the fan themselves. That doesn't scream "effective" to me either. In fact it really doesn't say anything at all about the character.
And I think the fact that people can't ignore a lot of people dislike her means she's not all that popular.
And I'd attribute that to Lindsay's Mary-Sue-ness. She's got the hot guy on the show and there are some rabid fans out there who only like her because of that and because they can self insert because she has no distinct personality. And again, anything said about Lindsay is perceived as being said about them. That has more to do with Danny's popularity than Lindsay's and it says more about the fans themselves than it does the character.
I definitely agree with that. I really do love Adam and Flack, and the majority of the posters here have the same opinion on them...and even though they are my absolute favorites, I rarely post on their threads just because I know the opinion I have on them is one that most people already have. As much as I dislike Lindsay, her thread is probably the one I visit most, along with the Lindsay Must Go thread, simply because the opinions are differing so drastically, and there is more of a need to back up your own opinion as much as you can. Plus, the debate in there with people on both sides that are willing to listen is always more interesting that seeing a thread with undying love or hate for her, and I doubt there would be that much attention or debate about her were she not so polarizing.
No disagreements there. I'm really hoping that the Danny being in a wheelchair thing will let her step up to the plate and show that she really cares for someone other than herself--being there for him has never been her strong point (i.e., Ruben), so this would be the chance to lose that reputation and finally give her something positive to show us.
As for the Flack spoiler....sigh. Yeah, he finished out the case when Angell was killed in the finale, but it was clear he wasn't all there, especially in the final scene when he executes her killer. Having him dive back in to work so soon, especially with Danny's injury occuring so quickly after Angell's death, is just lazy on the writer's part. Mac copes with stuff by becoming a workaholic, not Flack, and when I read that spoiler it seems that rather than having Flack deal with the pain of losing Angell and then having his best friend (who he is constantly looking out for and protecting) getting injured, they are going to put him aside to show more of how Danny in a wheelchair is going to change things. Yeah, Danny's injury is a big event and is going to give us plenty of Danny and DL drama, but couldn't it be a sidebar to Flack's story this time?
Flack is clearly not okay at the end of the finale, and if the premiere is picking up right after the shooting, he shouldn't be then either...
*sigh* DL is not my favorite thing in the world. That's one of the reasons I don't normally read the CSI magazine (it's biased, IMO). It doesn't help that Danny and Lindsay are honestly two of my less favorite characters on NY. It's not that I'd be enthusiastic about someone else getting hurt, but I'm not exactly thrilled. It would only be worse if Lindsay would be able to complain about being herself confined in a wheelchair.
About the Flack thing: I can see Flack hiding himself in his work faster than I can see him doing something else, but I do honestly think that he'd be more emotionally affected than someone like Mac. Come on, his girlfriend was murdered. She didn't break up with him, she died. And on top of all of that, his friend gets shot during a toast to said girlfriend. He shouldn't be that emotionally stable, and he definitely shouldn't be diving headfirst in work...
Ehh... :wtf: Not sure about the Witch Hunting on the people posting like maniacs on different sites and forums under various user names (of course, if your user name was already taken...but we're not Internet polizia) to back-up a theory that she doesn't have a lot of people that can truly like her. There is a fanbase for Lindsay, worldwide, just like she has her own hatebase worldwide. Not just a few, a fair amount of people. And the fact is that these people are there to lay out their perspective of the character and why they like her prove that she is effective on a part of the audience. Can't please everyone.
Also, you cannot ignore the fact that she is the most discussed character because she is an interesting character because of her flaws. After a while, it might get redundant because there is just so much you can say about a character, but the conversations are countless. Just start here. There's a lot of extremes about the character like there is a lot of shades of grey too. I might not always like Lindsay, but the fact that I can switch from a side to another tells me there is some reality in her character (you cannot like a person on every aspect of their personnality, ever) , and she became less and less Mary-Sue material with these flaws. Could she be portrayed better? No doubt.
It makes no sense to me to assume that it's only a handful of people posting all over the internet to make that character seem popular. Because who would do that? (Or would even have the time to do that?) There's way more than seven, or even a handful of Lindsay fans (to give an example, I've seen a poll on CSI-Fanatic where over 4000 people apparently voted her as the second-coolest female CSI character in the franchise); it's not like she needs the extra effort to appear popular. So if there have been a handful of people posting around on different boards, that tells me she's inspired dedication - on top of the fans she already has, that to me implies popularity.
If we're assuming every one of those fans is simply a few people making repeat efforts to look like different people, why not assume the same thing of the Lindsay-detractors?
Why do the detractors become emotionally invested then? I have seen Lindsay-dislike around on other places, but I have to say that outside of this forum, I've never seen it pass without a debate being sparked (or at least, another Lindsay-fan stepping into the mix). That's talk. Good characters generate talk, they inspire notice, even if it's just to talk about the fact that one doesn't like them, or why people dislike them or do like them. If a random search on the internet brings up almost 700 000 results about Lindsay Monroe, even if half of them are debates that's still a lot of results...results that top the search results one might receive for a lot of the other characters on the show. And you're right, most people don't like having something they like criticized - yet I rarely see the same rabid response when it comes to the other characters. It just points out that the character is creating an effect, which any author or producer would be proud of regardless of whether the effect was what they intended or not. It's the most controversial characters in many fandoms that usually generate the most talk (BtVS, Jane Austen, Harry Potter, Supernatural).
That could go both ways, though - the people who dislike her (in other places, not here) can't always ignore that a lot of people like her, and speak up about it. Hence the polarizing debates. It still says popular to me - if she wasn't that popular, a lot of her detractors could probably ignore that a few people here and there like her.
And the self-inserts who pair her with Mac or Flack? I can see how if they're over-identifying with Lindsay it could make things more personal for them, but if it were at all about Danny's popularity (in that they were more loyal to him than Lindsay), we probably wouldn't have seen the backlash we did over RND. There would probably be a few more Danny/Rikki fans who switched over from D/L - why not use her as a self-insert, too?
It's not that Lindsay is a bad character, at least not for me. She's pretty consistently written, and she does have fans. I don't particularly like D/L because they're not my favorite characters. I don't particularly like Lindsay because it's not that she's written poorly, it's just that I don't personally like the character that has been written. There's no question that she has fans as well as people that dislike her... almost every character on TV does. Granted, it's interesting that Lindsay is such a heated topic within the CSI fandom, which hosts so many controversies that it's not even funny.
Oh, I think were in one right now :lol:
(ETA: Holy crap, tl;dr! I haven't done this in a while. :lol
Not to get all up in the debate, but - it's true that not every fan of Lindsay or DL is the same person over and over again, but I can say for a fact that I have seen the same people form a major part of the pro-Lindsay/DL group at 4 or 5 different sites (possibly more). The same as one might be able to name a few of us as the most vocal anti-Lindsay people around, there are some names in my mind that stand out as the most vocal pro-Lindsay people around (at least back when I was more active out there on the intarwebz - I tend to stick to TalkCSI and my small group of friends on LJ these days).
(For the sake of background information, at least from my few years in the fandom) I've seen familiar names crop up in debates on various sites - at the time, it was almost like a battle of wills between certain groups of people (the presence of certain people could inspire people from the other group to join in, etc). And I do know that (in the past at least), there were people who would post a link to a place so that other fans could all converge for the discussion/debate/argument/what have you (or to post in a poll or ask questions or sign petitions or anything like that - rallying others to provide a certain kind of feedback, etc). It was all very dramatic. :lol: And it's possible that some of that is still going on. Fandom can be fun - and it can also be Srs Business. Anybody who has ventured into the Harry Potter fandom can attest to that! :lol: (Personally, I try to steer clear of the HP fandom - the controversial nature of some of the characters and/or pairings might be exciting and fun for some, but I get enough drama in this fandom. )
So yeah - all of Lindsay's fans aren't the same few people, but it does happen that some fans are part of different sites.
(Anyway, that was just for discussion's sake - it's not an insult against anybody else in the fandom, nor is it me trying to bring drama from other sites here. I don't even know if there is drama on other sites. I'm all about TalkCSI. :lol
I don't think people here or anywhere else being against Lindsay can be used as a measure of her popularity - to me, that implies that people are against her simply because she's popular when in fact the number of reasons that people dislike her are many and varied, depending on the individual. Just as the number of reasons that people like her are many and varied. Some like her just because they like her. Others may like her because she's different than the others (or they can relate to her as the 'outsider'). Some may like her because of her relationship with Danny. Some may be so vocal in her defense simply because she's perceived as the underdog of the series. The list goes on. *shrug* I have my reasons for liking Adam, and sometimes I can get a bit defensive when it comes to him (mainly when people are just being mean and stupid, of course ) - certainly not to the degree that Lindsay seems to inspire, but you know what I mean.
The character is polarizing, which some people take as a good thing and others don't. Honestly, that's another topic that's up for debate. :lol:
As for the self-insert thing...I'm hesitant to go there since I know it's a sensitive subject, but I think it comes down to the same thing that happens when you find any character to sympathize with or grow fond of: that character takes on an added significance. It isn't just about the character, it's personal. You like the character, or perhaps you identify with the character, so it isn't just about that character anymore. For that reason, Danny with Rikki wouldn't have just been an issue of 'oh, I need to switch to this new girl so I can self-insert as her instead' for a lot of people - it would have been an issue of cheating for some people, of betrayal - and that betrayal could be a very powerful thing when it involves a character (Danny) the person formerly cared a great deal for. (Although the cheating/betrayal aspect is debatable for a lot of reasons in this case because there hasn't been a lot of clarity, now or in the past, about the issue.)
Hey, if Donald cheated on Timmy (*points at Donald Strachey banner*), I'd be furious - with the writers for doing it and with the characters for being involved (in so far as the characters are 'real', and let's be honest, I don't think there's anything shameful about becoming emotionally attached to characters that are created for us to watch and connect to). I'd probably take Timmy's side and be angry with Donald on his behalf. It's not even a matter of me self-inserting as Timmy (although that would be interesting, wouldn't it? :devil - just as I don't think the drama over Danny and Rikki is just a matter of self-inserting on NY - it's a matter of me empathizing with the characters and making connections. I don't know how it is for anybody else, but Donald and Timmy are cuter than a box of puppies, and I see their relationship not just as a fictional relationship portrayed by talented actors - it has the added significance of being one of those 'I wish I could have love like that someday' fictional relationships for me (admit it, we all have them ). Seeing one of them betray the other would be more than just watching fake people doing fake things on TV. I'm sure that's the case for some of the DL fans who reacted badly over (and are still angry about) Danny sleeping with Rikki.
Wow, that got long and kind of off-topic. Sorry!
Basically - fandom is srs business. :lol: I mean, if you're in fandom, it's probably not just watching TV anymore. People are rabid fans or rabid detractors for any number of reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean a character is better or more popular or more well-written - and (to try to get back onto the topic of spoilers), even if a character has a gazillion fans, that doesn't mean they don't have faults or things the creators of the show should deal with, expand on, or use to create personal growth for the character.
Also, I don't think Adam being nice to Lindsay says much about how Lindsay treats him - maybe it is a sign that TPTB don't intend her to come across a certain way, but...I dunno, I kind of see it as part of who he is. He sees himself as the low man on the totem pole (and has said as much in the past), and I think he expects a certain amount of that kind of behavior from other people. Maybe he is used to it. Maybe he just lets things slide off his back. Maybe he's aware of it but he's a more generous person than some of us are about it.
I think we should discuss Adam more. Adam isn't the cause of enough discussion and debate! :lol:
I too want to discuss intensively about the other characters as much as people do with Lindsay or D/L. Let's do this! :thumbsup:
See, I perceive Hawkes and Adam as persons that doesn't let much bother them for their own particular reasons (but Hawkes could outsmart anyone in a matter of seconds lol). I agree that Adam probably expect this behaviour but not only because he see himself as "the low man on the totem pole", but because he surely got his fair share of bullying at school because of his social awkwardness. The human being as its way of getting use to a lot of thigs. Plus, there his dad . But I don't think he is naive as to not see it when people treat him badly. I guess he prefer to shrug and think he's done and/or said something again to avoid any tension or problems. Or he grew indifferent about it. Besides, how could you even want to be mean with Adam?! He's such a fuzzy goof ball! I dare you, people! :lol: Evidently, as we seen it, he gets intimated easily with anyone "higher on the totem pole".
And I realize this was off-topic. C'mon, people! Head over the Adam thread to continue the conversation!!! How about an episode where Adam set his string on fire because of a case of child abuse (similar to his background) and the guy get away with it? Do you think it would get to him? Let's throw in some S6 possibilities for Adam even if...
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