Constructive Criticism

Discussion in 'CSI: Miami' started by Guest, Feb 18, 2006.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Okay, I'm setting this thread up for people to come in and have a long hard think about what PRECISELY is going on here. I think we've established that many of us Miami fans aren't particularly happy with the way Season Four is progressing, and there are various factors, but I think it's important for us as fans to nail down EXACTLY what we don't like, then, just as importantly, WHY we don't like it, so that we can then begin to DO SOMETHING about it - at the very least have something concrete and constructive to bring to the attention to the writers/producers etc so that we can SAVE THIS SHOW! Because, damn it, Miami was good. And I don't believe in just sitting around whining while things are going to pot. We need to DO something.

    So, first things first, here’s what I DON’T want this thread to become:

    1. A dumping ground for rants. We are here to actually THINK, not go blind with rage. There are other threads to rant in. If you must rant (and we all feel the need sometimes) do it in the appropriate place where the majority of people will be sympathetic to you and you don’t risk alienating others. If you only want to scream and shout about how much you hate Natalia, go do it in the thread down the page marked ‘Get Rid of Natalia Boa Vista’. That’s what it’s there for.
    2. A turf war. We want something GOOD to come out of this thread, and to do that we need to stay united as a fandom. We all have differences of opinion - and that's okay. We need to respect those differences and work with them. A lot more can be achieved if we work together rather than against each other. So, no flaming, bashing or being snarky about each other's opinions, please.

    I'll also head off an argument before it starts: Natalia Boa Vista - some people like her. Some don't. We are ALL going to have to live with her for AT LEAST the rest of the season so let's work around that fact. Since this thread is open to all, I would ask that we be respectful of the character, even if we don't like her (and, I'll be honest, I really don't like her). But I don't want people who like Natalia to feel isolated or intimidated or as if they can't make comment here, so I would ask that people don't call her the Snake-lady or anything along those lines. That goes for all other characters, including Calleigh, Horatio, Eric, Wolfe, etc.

    If we are respectful of each other and the characters, we run less risk of this thread turning into some kind of turf-war, which is precisely what we DON'T want.

    Okay, here’s how a post here should go:

    1. Comment: (eg) I find Marisol annoying.
    2. Analysis: (eg) I find her annoying BECAUSE blah blah blah.
    3. Next Steps: (eg) The writers/producers/executives/directors could correct this by doing X,Y and Z.


    1. Comment: I think the writing is getting worse.
    2. Analysis: The writing is not as good as _specify a point when the writing was better_ BECAUSE blah blah blah (eg: you think the plots are less believable, you find the characters less believable, you think the story lines are too dark/light, you miss a certain character (then tell us WHY you miss that character, what did that character bring to the show that is now missing, are any new characters compensating, are they kind of getting there but aren’t quite, etc).)
    3. Next Steps: The writers could correct this by doing X,Y and Z.

    Think hard before you post. You can respond to other people’s posts (this thread is partly to open up a dialogue between people of differing views anyway, in the hope that we can help each other) but again, be RESPECTFUL. Bare in mind that there ARE younger people around these forums, and there ARE people who get very emotionally caught up with these shows. I myself am in my mid-late teens, but I’ve been in and out of internet communities for shows I liked where the majority of the people there were older than me since I was nine. It took me a while to learn not to take other people’s views personally, and be able to separate characters I liked from myself. By the time I was thirteen I was fully adjusted to life in sci-fi show fandom message boards, but it can take others longer and I know people on here OLDER than myself who still get very worked up by things being said. So be mindful, be respectful, if someone says something that most would see as inane or is incorrect, explain to them why they are wrong and be tactful about it.

    Also, not everyone has been around Miami since season one, so we need to be mindful that not everyone knows what the first couple of series of Miami were like. I would be interested to know, actually, who of the people who LIKE Natalia have ALSO been in with the show since the first season. Most of what I’ve seen of those people who like her suggests that they haven’t actually been in with the fandom for that long in the first place – but I could be wrong.

    That said, I’ll leave you guys to it. I’ll get on and make MY comment and analysis later, just ‘cause this has taken me waaaay longer than I intended to set up and now I’m tired. :p hehe, aaanyway, good luck!

    edited by mod to change title[/b]
  2. docfrog

    docfrog Police Officer

    Jan 4, 2006
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    Quite an interesting thread...

    okay, here's my opinion on Season 4:
    I really like a little private stuff, I even miss that in LV and in NY, but in Miami S4 I gained the impression, that the cases are just background for the private story lines (and I think, vice versa would be better), and that's annoying. No, to be honest, it would bother me less, if the writers (or the producers) wouldn't try to set H up with a new girl-friend every new season (cause most of the private stuff is about that - so for me not just Marisol is the problem). I know that many of you want to see him happy with a woman, but I prefer this lonesome and vulnerable look on him (and I think, he'd lose that)

    I know that Miami - being the first spin-off - needed to be very different from the original and being more personal is/was a good idea, but I think meantime it is a bit imbalanced.

    I also miss the funny conversations between Eric and Speed. Okay, Speed is gone and if Ryan would try to fill the gap right away, most of us wouldn't like that, but Miami lost some of its fun since then. An alternative would be to give Tripp more screentime, cause he has quite a good sense of humor, he just needs more time for it (he can be quite funny with everyone else on the show. Of course, they shouldn't make a clown out of him... just a little sarcasm like he shows sometimes, being with Horatio) - use that dynamic!

    And I really don't like it, when they change H's background any time they like. The fans try to reconcile what is on the CBS homepage and what is said in the show and it just doesn't fit together. His past was good and it still would have fit, even with Raymond NOT being dead, so why did they have to give him that NY-plot?

    In S1 H promised Jeffrey Douglas (I think that was his name, the father who burned his pregnant girl-friend in the car) in "Ashes to Ashes" to get him one day. Three seasons later would be a good time for that (just btw)

    Although I'm not so fond of Calleigh (I just prefer the men in the show ;) ), I miss her and I'd like to have more screentime for Alexx (to me it seems, as if every pathologist in LV or NY has more screentime than her)

    And here's what I like:
    I like the idea of crossovers with NY; H and Mac are just great together.
    I like the Walter Resden-plot, although it belongs to the NY-background (which I don't like)
    I like the episodes which concentrate on the case, because I can watch them much more relaxed than the ones including H's private life
  3. lantiscod

    lantiscod Pathologist

    Nov 24, 2005
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    I don't whether only season four could be called "going wrong"...I don't like much for season two and; maybe it's part of the reason---I don't like much about what kind of Horatio the show is making, especially when Megan was written out of the show and then Speedle was written out...

    And the more I wacth miami(after season one), the more time it reminds me why both Megan and Speedle were written out...They are the best characters I love for maimi...And it also makes me to ask: Is there any writer who asked for leave away from the show after season one or two? Is there any quarrel happened in the writers' team? Has some writer or director feel something wrong with the show? Or has they realised that which derection the is going now does differ from what they planed at their beginning? If they haven't feel something, something that was natrual, something that was essencial of the show, something that once caught their audience's heart, has been loosing, then I will say it is going wrong...
  4. AlexxWoods

    AlexxWoods CSI Level Three

    Oct 6, 2005
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    I really like season four so far...
    okay there are some things I'd like to be changed but...
    I like Natalia and Marisol
    and I liked the Jennifer Wilson storyline
    So yeah valera should get more screentime...
  5. Fabian

    Fabian Pathologist

    Aug 9, 2003
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    Great thread.

    What went wrong?
    I have the feeling that CSI: Miami keeps wanting to cross boundaries. Everything needs to be big, great.
    It's like the writers are so enthousiastic that they end up dissapointing the fans.

    They decided to put in a lot of private stuff in the episodes.
    I find this okay, but they really over do it a lot.
    It's like they are saying: Here fans, now you see what's going on!
    They kind of ruin the characters in the process.
    Horatio Caine suddenly has an entire history in New York, which is kind of out of the blue.
    Appearently the writers didn't like the Raymond story anymore and wrapped it up, just like that.
    The NY-story is a bit confusing. I am glad that there is a background for Horatio, but they are making his life too miserable. I hope that the writers do intend to let him have an emotional breakdown once.

    The team used to work like a team. They have got zero group dynamic and it is like they are constantly being rude to the other. The light feeling of the episodes is totally gone, and I think the writers again do this to make the show edgy. But too edgy!

    The cases and the motives of them are constantly the same.
    Jealousy, money, greed..that's about it.
    The people involved are always so gorgeous, it makes me want too puke.
    The writers are defenitely supervisial on that part, or at least the casting agency is.

    Anyhow, the writers need to focus more on the plot than on the characters. The characters will work, we love them.
    And about Natalia Boa Vista; She could be a great addition to the cast, if she would play a part in solving cases.

    I do have to give the writers credit on one thing: The lack of action in the episodes, compared to overdone episodes like Crime Wave and Nothing to Lose.
    But we don't want to see any cliche dull episodes in return.
    The show lacks some dramatic feel. Right now it's like: Look at our show being hip, cool and sexy.
    Where are the stories that are actually worth watching?

    I probably forgot a lot of things that I wanted to say, so I might add those later.
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    Okay, I recon now I have to add my two cents:

    I'll start by saying that I liked seasons one through three pretty well. There were one or two episodes I didn't like, mostly because I think Miami tries to be too political and I don't like that in my TV shows (I prefer what they do in LV, which is show us a side of life and take an impartial look at it's consquences, whilst being up-beat about it. If one of the characters expresses an opinion, another will have a different one. Situations aren't written off as right or wrong in their entirety, they're just there,) but I ignored the somewhat infantile black-and-whiteness of Miami's reasoning in one or two of it's episodes because I was interested in the characters. I missed Speed when he died but I liked Ryan and pretty much went with it.

    I think I agree with Fabian, I don't like how bitchy the team are getting. I miss the young-trio dynamic that Calleigh, Eric and Speed had. The writers are focusing more on the private lives of the characters and in turn they seem to want to drum up interest in those characters by creating tension in their working relationships. The irony is that I find myself far less interested in the characters now they don't get on well. We already have angst with all the dead bodies everywhere - I don't want it in our characters and their relationships too.

    It's odd to see how the characters are changing. Calleigh used to be somewhere between Lindsay of NY and Catherine of LV (Lindsay's chipper-ness and Catherine's confidence). Now she seems far more sober and we're not seeing nearly as much of her. That saddens me because I liked her character and found her probably the most complex person on the team. Plus I miss the female presence.

    I don't like the implication of current Miami plots involving women where they have to have dark pasts/tragic futures to be interesting. Natalia I find bearable as a character, but I think she'd be a lot more likable if they just gradually introduced her, without past, without complexities, just drew her in from the background, like they did with Velara. Maxine gradually became more important to the plot and we saw hints of a friendship with Ryan developing and then she had her own little story-arc with the DNA mix-up. The fans didn't get angry that we were having a new character suddenly thrust upon us because we were used to her being around and these new trickles of information were fun and interesting. We were open to her being developed and now lots of people want to see more of her, because she wasn't just dropped on us.

    I think that's what should have been done with Natalia. Granted, with Yelina gone they needed another woman on the cast, but they should either have hired a new CSI so that they could blatantly said 'here is a new main character, we are now going to develop her', or carefully edged Natalia in from the background. Having this new character, who rarely has ANYTHING to do with the actual cases, suddenly being introduced for no apparent reason other than to screw up Eric's home life even more than it already is, was not something the fans of a show like CSI were going to take kindly.

    It would have been more palatable to have her crop up every few episodes or so helping out with cases and just being herself, because she DOES have the makings of a lovable character. I think the audience would have warmed to her quite easily if we'd just been allowed to do it in our own time. If they'd just had her appear every now and again over this season, without any development at all, just 'This is Natalia. She's in DNA. She is being helpful. She is cheerful and confidant and sweet.' Then brought her in a little more NEXT season, THEN give her a past, it might have worked better.

    I think the relationship with Eric was a bad idea. Flirting would have been okay, let us know Eric is attracted to this girl, but again, gradually, once every few episodes would have been perfectly suffiecient, then develop the relationship in drips and drabs over the next couple of seasons. THEN we might have been ready for a pregnancy scare!

    So yes, with Natalia it was just too much too soon. If the writers want to rescue the situation, they need to play DOWN her presence for a while. We need to actually get to KNOW this character, because 'tragic pasts' are not the be-all and end-all of a person. The one episode in which I found myself remotely warming to her was when she appeared at a crime scene (in her pyamas?!) and asked Ryan if she could help out, as she lived just down the street. She was sweet and quirky, Ryan got on well with her, and in all the dynamic worked (ironically, this was the first time she hinted at her 'dark secret' by saying this was the first time she had been at a crime scene by choice.) A moment like that once in every five episodes this season, just showing us what kind of character she is, not saying ANYTHING about her private life or personal history, and it would have worked.

    With Horation - well, I've never been particularly fond of the big H, again, he just seemed to be all tragic past with no complexity other than that, but some people did like him and, again, I over looked what I didn't like abotu Horatio becase the plots and the other characters were interesting. Horatio became interesting through his relationship with Yelina, and I liked that. I also liked his dynamic with Megan in early season one. She made a good, down to earth foil for his idealism (he actually admitted he was wrong in hounding a suspect to her! It made him seem human!)

    I don't like this messing around with his background, either. It's confusing. If he must have a tragic past, could he only have one tragic past?! Ideally, he needs a Catherine/Stella figure - someone to keep him anchored. We could see Calleigh develop into that, or they could bring Yelina back, or give Trip more screen time. I don't think setting him up with a new woman every season will help him seem more human. He needs a foil, a comrade in arms who can give him a poke every now and again. As for Marisol, well... I just don't find her particularly interesting. It's not a case of liking her or not. She's just something of a 'so what?' for me right now. She's too pretty, too sweet, too passive, too helpless, too tragic... and 'so what?' again. She has cancer. She is Eric's sister. It's all very sad. But WHY do we need to know this? Horatio's relationship with her really isn't doing much for his character (again, i would prefer that they fit him out with a Catherine/Stella character to balance him out, rather than try to 'develop' him through a relationship). It's just too convaluted and soap opera-like to really be what CSI fans are looking for. I don't want angst, I want DEAD BODIES! :lol:

    Seriously, character development is good. Great. Lovely. I crave it. But in LIMITED AND CONTROLED DOSES ONLY. It took us... what? Five years before we found out that Sara's mother had stabbed her father to death? And her angst didn't suddenly become the focus of every show. The cases were always what drove it. Plus Sara was a consistant character from the first series - most people WANTED to know about her!

    So, if they want to have complex female characters, they need to bring Yelina back and/or focus more on Calleigh, not bring in a non-CSI woman and try to throw her at the audience. Calleigh's behind-the-scenes struggle and love/hate relationship with her alcholic father (featured minimally but still very poignant) was intriguing. Not tragic - INTERESTING. That's what we need in our CSI characters! And not just the women - they can ALL be interesting and likeable without being over-angsty and tragic (and I think they're much MORE likable without the hammed-up drama).

    What I think Miami needs:
    1.A stable team dynamic - they don't all have to love each other but they should at east jell!
    2.A very gradual developing of the characters where the majority of the angst takes place off screen - credit the audience with some intelligence and let us work out what's our characters are going through for ourselves!
    3. A focus back on the cases, and fewer beautiful people!

    Achem. Right, now I have to go to homework...
  7. csi_gurl

    csi_gurl Police Officer

    Jan 22, 2006
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    I am really enjoying Season Four because it's focusing on Ryan a lot and I like that. However, I will admit that there are a few aspects of the program that I would like to see changed slightly.

    First, I miss Calleigh. I took her for granted in the first three seasons of the show, and now that she's getting next to no screentime, I find that the lack of female presence in the show is starting to deteriorate the quality of the program itself. I enjoyed the way they teased us with her family drama, and her relationship with John Hagan. Not too much, all at once, just every once in a while we would get some insight into her background. So I think that if the writers are going to continually develop the lives of the characters (which I enjoy; character development is vital in any show that involves any amount of drama), they should do it in smaller doses. That way we're not being overwhelmed with the tragic pasts of every character, the vices they're trying to overcome in every episode, and the pain they continually endure in the completely unsuccessful relationships.

    Also, I would like to see a little more cameraderie among the cast. I know that Ryan can't just immediately step into Speed's now-vacant position as leader of the juveniles (Eric, Calleigh, Speed), but why are the characters constantly fighting and feuding? Although I will admit that, since the end of "Nailed", Eric and Ryan have been getting along a lot better, and that's breath of fresh air. As has previously been mentioned by someone other than myself, Frank's role could be more recurring, because he has the capacity to be funny and sarcastic, yet professional at the same time. I loved the smooth working relationship of seasons one and two, and I would like to see some friendships re-introduced. The potential is completely present between Ryan and Valera, and I, for one, would like to see that potential realized. They don't even have to go out and have a "baby scare" (pardon my sarcasm), but I would like to see the friendly dynamics between them get a little more air time.

    Additionally, would it kill the writers to give someone a successful relationship? I'm not a big CSI: New York fan, but I can't help but notice that Stella seems to be in a pretty healthy relationship, which is nice to see for once. Calleigh's ex-boyfriend killed himself; Horatio was in love with his brother's "widow", and is now dating the terminally ill sister of one of his co-workers; Ryan has his little forbidden flame with Erica Sykes; Eric and Natalia had their short-lived relationship...I would like to see someone have a healthy, successful relationship that doesn't end in tragedy or death.

    I also agree that Natalia could have been popular, but it was just "too much, too soon". In just a few short months, she came in, got a bad reputation with Calleigh, had a flame --and almost a child--with Eric, had Ryan fall for her, and hinted at some sort of tragic past (what a surprise!). These are all valid character developments, but, combined with Horatio's relationship with Marisol, Eric's money problems, Ryan's eyesight problems, and this "mole" business, it was just much too much. I would like to see this show reclaim its status as a "crime drama" and not the other way around. I consider myself a major advocate for character development, but we must draw the line somewhere. Perhaps expanding on old tragedies, rather than building new ones (ie, expand on Horatio's Yelina-inflicted heart wounds, instead of bringing in this "abusive father/lived in New York" business). If they want to talk about tragedy, they can mope about Speed's death; I don't see the need to introduce Marisol as a cancer patient-turned love interest.

    Despite the negativity and pessimism of this message, however, I really do love CSI: Miami and will continue to watch until the end of days. My favourite season, thus far, has been season three, and I am yet to give up on season four. I really liked some of the episodes, like "Nailed", and "Shattered". There are just a few troubles in paradise which I would like to see resolved.
  8. Fabian

    Fabian Pathologist

    Aug 9, 2003
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    I'd like to note that Yelina and the entire Raymond-plot really was the only thing that made Horato interesting.
    He became more than just the cool guy that locks up the bad guys.
    We saw his sensitive part.
    The NY-story supposedly is there to show why Horatio wants justice; to make up for his own mistakes.
    This sound really interesting, but...what do we really know about it? Nothing.
    The writers just should have stuck with the Raymond story, or at least should have took the time to finish it.
    They just couldn't wait to get Yelina out and end the whole arc.
    After '10-7' I was thinking, goodbye my CSI: Miami. This was the final episode.
  9. Lucy

    Lucy Colonial Fleet Librarian Premium Member

    Aug 22, 2004
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    There are so many points that have been raised here that I agree with wholeheartedly, that I just have to post something!
    As a fan of the show from the beginning, I found this whole change of direction really quite insulting. For me, it's like the heart has been wripped out of the show and we have been left with something contrived and soulless instead. The Raymond backstory had substance, it was believable and the drama wasn't overdone. I liked the fact that Ray's demise haunted Horatio, in terms of convincing drama. He was damaged by it, he blamed himself for it and he struggled to move past it. The NY past seems to have been thrown in there, with no prior mention of it whatsoever, and I find it very hard to just go along with it or even be interested in it. It's almost as if the writers ended the Ray storyarc with very little thought for the credibility of the show or for the fans who have been following the show for so long.
    ....or, they could have developed Yelina's character more. Sofia Milos is a fine actress (quite superb in 'The Sopranos') and she did so well with what she was given on CSIM, but the writers really didn't flesh her out nearly as much as they could have done. I am hoping that her chance could still come should she return to the show.
    Me too. They're all so sullen and serious these days! I like the lighter banter between characters, and we have had some of that between Eric, Ryan and Dan for example, but not nearly enough. Frank's oneliners are a godsend, as is the presence of Valera, as they at least raise a chuckle in the sea of gloom!
    I've noticed other people saying that too. Yelina did bring out H's vulnerable side, and she really did humanize him. What we are seeing now in season 4 with Marisol and H's NY past seems a little too forced and just doesn't sit right with me. As far as Miami canon is concerned, the slate has been wiped a little too clean for my liking.

    I could so easily post more on this subject, but I think that's enough for now! ;)
  10. Finch

    Finch Funnier in Enochian Super Moderator

    Jul 30, 2005
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    Oh my Lord I just wrote a whole bunch and it told me it was no longer valid so it didn't frustrating is that? I had some pretty awesome points too.
  11. ThumpyG42

    ThumpyG42 ~Nocturnal Jenn~ Premium Member

    Apr 28, 2005
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    This is a great idea for a thread, although I debated whether or not I should post in here, sometimes I feel that I can't always get across what it is I want to say. But in the end, I decided that I had some things I wanted to get off my chest, so here I am. I must add that these are my opinions alone, I don't proclaim to speak for all Miami fans.

    Overall impressions:

    I, for one, don't like too much of the personal stuff in my CSI shows. I like getting the little hints and glimpses of the characters' personal lives, and I don't like it when too much of the personal stuff is thrown at me at one time. I'm all for character development, without it they'd all be one dimensional characters that no one would care about. But...I like it to happen slowly and over time, like being handed a piece of a puzzle and then being given the time to see how that piece fits in with what we've learned about the characters so far. I do realize that Miami has always given us a bit more of the personal storylines than the other series, but before this season they've always struck a pretty good balance of personal/case related storylines. To me, it's sort of like what docfrog said...this season it sometimes seems like the actual cases are being pushed to the background for the 'personal stories'.

    I also want to say I don't think the 4th season has been all bad, there have been a couple of really excellent episodes this season, in my opinion. And each episode so far has its good points. In my opinion, 'Nailed' is the best episode of the season so far, and the continuation of the storyline involving Ryan's eye injury is an example of a 'personal storyline' done just right, just the right amount of drama and angst, and not too heavy handed.


    As of now, I dislike the character and the way she was thrust upon us. I agree with what Gnimaerd said, it would have been far easier to take the addition of a new character if she'd been worked in gradually, and not just suddenly there. It's like 'Here she is, she's new, she's involved with Eric, ooops...they had a pregnancy scare'. It's all a bit much for some of the fans to take. I also realize that maybe they felt they needed another female character in the cast with the sudden disappearance of Yelina, but I'd have much rather seen Calleigh brought to the forefront more, she's such a strong character, and has been lacking in screentime and character development this season. I'd then like to see an existing female character such as Valera or Alexx given a larger role in the show rather than having this new charcter thrust upon us quite so quickly. I like the way Dan was introduced into the show, a few small parts here and there helping the CSI's with the a/v parts of their cases, and slowly being given a personality. At the beginning of the season, I had no feelings toward the character one way or the other, but as of late have grown to be quite fond of him. To introduce the Natalia character in a similar way would have been ideal. As to how to fix the problem, I would like to see them ease Natalia to the background for awhile, and then start trying to re-introduce her into the show and to the fans a bit more slowly, give her something productive to do and give those of us who haven't yet warmed up to the character a reason to change our minds.

    Horatio, Yelina, Marisol and the new NY back story:

    I'll say up front that I think it was wrong to just send Yelina away with Raymond and close the book on that storyline, and to then expect us to just accept a whole new backstory for Horatio. If they're really wanting to give us the more personal storylines this season, I'd have prefered to see them keep Yelina, and even Raymond for that matter. I'd much rather see how Horatio, Yelina, and Ray, Jr. adjust to Raymond being alive and suddenly back in their lives, or if they even could adjust. The way that storyline was left at the end of the season just felt so unfinished and unresolved. I can honestly say that I'm not too excited to learn about Horatio's past in NY, I just can't get into that whole storyline. Now, that may change as the season progresses and we learn more details about it, but as of now, I'm not too invested in it. As to how to fix this problem, short of bringing Yelina back and dropping this new "NY past for Horatio', I honestly don't know. I mean to quote Lucy, 'the slate has been wiped a little too clean'. Other than the mentions of Yelina in 'Under Suspicion', it's like the whole storyline never even happened.

    That brings me to Marisol...I'd much rather see the Marisol storyline be about the relationship between Eric and his gravely ill sister alone. I honestly do not see the need to add Horatio to the mix, or at least not in the way they have so far. To me the relationship between Horatio and Marisol seems very forced. I'd like to see Horatio (and the rest of the team for that matter) offering support and comfort to Eric as he struggles to deal with his sister's illness. And, as someone very wise said to me awhile back, it'd be great to see Horatio being a friend to Marisol and seeing that wonderful compassionate side that he has, much like the way he was with Belle King in the 'Dead Woman Walking' episode from season 1. Again, like the Natalia thing, it's all a bit too much to take at one time.

    The dynamic of the team:

    In my opinion this is slowly getting better. I was so tired of the friction between the younger CSI's that seemed to be so prevailant at the end of the last season. They turned a corner during the 'Nailed' episode and since then there have been some great moments between Eric and Ryan, such as the 'blog scene' from the '.......' episode. I also liked the friendship between Dan and Eric as seen in the 'Skeletons' episode. I would love to see more of these types of moments. I'd also like to see more of Frank and Alexx. And since Dan has been given a bit of a personality, I'd like to see more of him as well.

    I like the 'mole' storyline as well, I think it's interesting and moving along at just the right pace, not too fast and not too slowly.

    Things I'd like to see:

    1. More screentime and character development for Alexx, Trip, Valera and Dan.
    2. Less of some of the personal storylines and more of the actual cases.
    3. The continuation of the slowly improving team dynamics. They could speed up this process a bit and it wouldn't gurt my feelings at all. ;)
    4. The gradual character development of our main characters to return.

    That's all I can think of now. I still don't think I've said everything I've wanted to say, nor that I adequately expressed my feelings about the 4th season, but it's a start, I guess.
  12. kinkapoodles

    kinkapoodles Judge

    May 30, 2005
    Likes Received:
    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    Thumpy , I could not have said it better myself. :)

    I don't like so much personal stuff being brought up. This show is supposed to be about solving crimes, not seeing Delko and Natalia have a pregnancy scare or so much of Horatio's personal and past life. Are they so desperate for storylines that they have to make up a NY background?

    I know they had to fake Ray's death again but he had obviously been in Miami for years and nobody knew he was alive. Why did he have to make such a sudden departure and take Yelina and Ray with him? As I have stated before, Yelina is not one of my favorite characters, but I did like the tension between her and Horatio. Not having them get together and keeping that tension between them made the show exciting to watch and now that's gone.

    Marisol...where did that storyline come from? Eric only mentioned his family a couple times and he said he was the baby. I'm not sure if they every addressed her age, but it seems she is supposed to be younger. What about family support for Marisol? They are supposed to be a close family but where are they now that Marisol is sick? Why do they want her and Horatio to have a relationship? Doesn't H have more than enough personal storylines going on right now?

    Things I would like to see happen:

    1. Updates on Marisol (her condition, not her and H). Seeing everyone support Eric when he needs it.
    2. Less Natalia. If they are gonna give her screen time, give her more work related screen time and less flirting with everyone. Give up on the Natalia/Eric storyline. We just don't care.
    3. Give the team more cases where they all have to work together. In past seasons they worked several cases together. If not that, then at least show H working with them more. He seems to always be on his own. I liked Seasons 1 and 2 when they actually worked together.

    I'm sure there's more but I can't think of anything else right now. As I said, Thumpy, I couldn't have said it better. Let's hope the rest of the season improves on the personal stuff and that Season 6 will be better but I don't think they will ever get back to the chemistry they had in Season 2. I know Speed's not gonna come back but in my opinion, I think he had a lot to do with the great chemistry that was on the show. Eric and Ryan are ok together but they just don't have the chemistry that Eric/Speed had. Enough said for now. :)
  13. togoholic

    togoholic CSI Level One

    Feb 6, 2006
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    I have to admit that in my opinion season four is my #1 season so far even if it's not perfect. I enjoy watching it! Of course there are things I don't like very much. I thought: maybe I should wait to post my opinion until the season is over because I want to wait until they finished it the way they have in mind and then after the finale I can finally say what bugged me the most etc. But I changed my mind as I began thinking about the season in a critical way, and now I will try to sum up what I like and dislike up to episode 15. I just try to point out what I think about the season so far, positive and negative. (I'm also not into disliking characters based on just a few episodes. I like to see the entire character development to really let my opinion settle. But that just as a side note)

    What I really loved were the storylines about Ryan and New York. I for one think that the New York story worked very fine, and I also enjoyed seeing Horatio's 'Daddy side' again. He's so vulnerable around Jennifer, he's so worried... that was only when Yelina and Ray Jr. have been around. The whole Walter Resden story was just well placed and very good written, although I wished for more episodes that would have dealt with that. Resden in jail so soon is kind of sad. There was a lot of potential for thrilling episodes where Horatio can't catch him and Jennifer being in danger etc. Maybe he can escape prison :p

    Character development... I'm a big fan of that! And I love it when they show how sensitive the CSI's are, but I tire of seeing Horatio having nothing but tragic relationships. I want him happy or alone and hanging out with his friends ;) To me the Marisol-thing is totally taken out of the blue. I don't like it that much to be honest. Even if I'm not so into Yelina anymore I think it would have been better AND more fair to her if Horatio would still grieve because he lost her. He loved her very much. It feels like the writers have totally forgotten about how strong Horatio's feelings were - and they decided it to be that way once!

    I miss Calleigh. I like that they show her less happy because she went through a lot and it's certainly not easy for her to be happy again, so that is pretty pleasing to watch IF she is on screen. Another potential just wasted. Calleigh is, like some of you said before, a complex character and I'd love to see more of her and her way of dealing with her losses etc. The whole Eric/Ryan bitchyness got on my nerves. I so hated that. It made the team seem to work alone even if they were together. I'm glad that this is over between Eric and Ryan and the team seems to get back together as a real team.

    As for personal stories I love Ryan's best. He acts often like a little macho, a tough guy that believes he is kind of invincible like much young people do sometimes when they're so passionate like him. He is ambitious, he is totally into his work, he cares about justice and victims and he wants to find the bad guys and put them into prison. And now he has to face the fact that anything can happen to you that could change your whole life in an instant. He has to deal with that he could lose his sight. We see him in fear for the first time, coming from the bottom of his heart, showing that he has a problem facing health problems. He just wants to forget what happened to him overseeing that he indangers his health by acting that way. The scene where he loses it and punches his locker was perfect! I hope they finish his storyline in a good way, meaning letting him mention how his eye is doing or let him having the need of surgery. This is real potential, this is character development and showing a vulnerable side at its best. Not overdosed, but still dramatic so you feel with the character.

    What I really loved was Alexx/Ryan! I always thought they were cute together a bit like aunt/nephew, and it was awesome when he went to her to have his eye checked first because he trusts her most. She worries so much about him and sometimes you get the impression that he is kinda like a son to her. I so love that friendship!

    There have been excellent episodes and screenplay in season four ('Three-way' 'Under Suspicion' 'Nailed' 'Shattered' 'Payback' 'Skeletons') which draws me even more to CSIM. I agree with Thumpy; 'Nailed' was the best episode so far! But I really loved 'Three-way' because it was original, just what we need in the future. I also agree that the cases become more and more sideplots added to the personal life-thing that has a slight touch of Soap Opera at times.

    So, please:

    - less Soap Opera and more original cases
    - more teamwork
    - less Boa Vista as this character takes away the important screentime for Calleigh and for the team to grow together again
    - less personal drama for Horatio; I think he needs some time to heal and not deal with more drama every few months. To me he is a tragic figure and most of the time I want to cuddle him and tell him that life can be so wonderful. He IS an interesting character, even THE most interesting character to me personally, but I beg the writers to let him heal just once. We don't need more death and loss in his personal life to see him as a human, we already do.
    - more original cases PLEASE! (had to state that again as I'm desperate lol)
    - no big storylines for additional or new people in the lab (like now with Natalia) - even more screentime taken away from the people who solve crimes.
    - more screentime for Frank please!!! He is 'Da Man' :p
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    Maybe I have much more to say about that topic, but I will try to keep it short and simple ;)

    The ending of S3 was very quick, so many things happened. That plot would have deserved a longer episode. But nonethless the Ray-storyarc is resolved for good. For past years H had to care for Yelina but now Ray will have to take that part, and H has time for other things.
    That's a good begining for S4. The season premiere was not only pretty cool, but stunning. That's Miami Style.
    I'm not bothered by Hs "new" background. After Ray was gone things came to the surface that were buried deeper.
    The style and screenplay gets better every season.
    I prefer character developement to concentrating on the cases. Why should I care about cases, if they don't affect the people (and their lives) who solve them?
    of course it can be to much. The Boa/Eric thing ended and now I hope they will find a "good" end for Marisol. (the only thing that bothers me much)

    Things I like about the season:
    - Yelina is gone (she was never good for H)
    - Ryan is a part of the team (I like him more and more after every episode)
    - Jennifer/Resden (NY bg)
    - Frank has much more screentime (one of the reasons why I'm glad that Yelina is gone)

    Things I don't like:
    - Natalia (or better known as Boa) I don't know why she is here. She just annoys me
    - Marisol: she is a nice girl and all. But she couldn't keep her hands of H. That's why I can't feel sorry for her and why I will be glad when she is gone.
    - Cal has not enough screentime
    - Frank isn't still in the credits

    I'm sure I forgot some important things. But I took me enough time already to write this short paragraph :D
  15. MiamiDade

    MiamiDade Pathologist

    Jul 7, 2005
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    Re: Constructive Criticism: WHAT EXACTLY is going wrong with

    I can only be brief, as I haven't much time! I am not liking Season 4 at all, apart from a couple of good episodes which still do not manage to hold a candle to most episodes from Seasons 1-3.

    A quick summary of why I feel this way:

    - Too many soap opera type storylines.

    - All style over substance.

    - The show is trying to just appeal to the lowest common denominator of viewers (I've noticed many posters who once wrote very eloquently and intelligently about the show on this forum have disappeared - they have lost all faith in the show, that tells me something!)

    - No Yelina. Horatio was a much more intriguing, interesting character when she was on the show. I believe she was good for him, unlike the previous poster. Their relationship was genuinely touching and I miss that very much. The show needs her back, and soon. The Ray storyarc still needs a resolution. It is insulting to think that TPTB think that this has been put to bed, just like that! 3 seasons of build up for nothing really. The writers took the easy way out here by not dealing with that properly. It was rushed and unconvincing.

    - The team dynamic is seriously lacking this season, and it was in season 3 too, mainly due to the loss of Speed.

    - Horatio's life is becoming so full of angst that it is starting to bore me.

    Not a happy camper. :rolleyes:

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