*A BIT OF PERSPECTIVE, AND CALL FOR A "TRUCE" RE THE E/C ROMANCE.*

[Adamsgirl]

Disclaimer: I swear I'm not bashing my own ship.

Jessica, you really shouldn’t have to add a disclaimer. If shippers do not like what you’ve written, you shouldn’t have to justify your comments as you’re FULLY entitled to them. You were perfectly honest and admitted that Natalia could have had a scene rather than E/C. I’m a shipper and I agree with you. I’m a fan of Valera’s character and a massive fan of Alexx. If I could have chosen a minute scene with either of those two in at least one episode over an E/C scene, I most certainly would have. Does that make me less of a shipper? No. Will I be regarded as not a “true hiphugger”? Possibly, but I honestly don’t care.

I am a shipper, maybe not one that thinks they are the be all and end all of the show. Does that make me less of a hiphugger? No.

It’s about seeing both sides of the coin here. Can hiphuggers say they enjoy all the drama surrounding the couple? Can hiphuggers say that they like the couple to constantly be in danger or hospitalized? It’s repetitive. When “drama” storylines did occur, another character (ones that have been left in the background) could have been used and there’s nothing wrong in admitting that. Not every “drama” storyline has to involve Eric and/or Calleigh, so I can completely understand where “non-hiphuggers” are coming from.

I’ve seen comments around the net that “true Adam fans won’t care about Eddie leaving”. I’ve stated that I am a fan of Eddie’s. I’ve been a fan of Adam’s since his Brooklyn South days (yes, that long!). Why can’t I be fans of both actors/characters? Because I am such a huge fan of Adam’s, is it wrong of me to want him to shine on his own without a scene with Calleigh? Does that comment make me less of a hiphugger? No.

EC is canon. And everybody knows how heavily they've played into the main storylines this season. Therefore, there are going to be comments, both pro and against, in threads other than the shipper thread and the dislike thread. If they relate to the storyline at hand, there is no reason why the EC interaction shouldn't be discussed, positively or negatively.

If you don't want to hear what someone has to say, then don't read their posts if you know it's going to inflame you. But there's no reason to belittle people on either side just because someone's opinion doesn't mesh with yours.

Some people are just never going to like EC. That's a fact. They don't deserve to be attacked any more than people who do like EC deserved to be attacked. It's a matter of opinion

I agree with all of those comments. Nothing else to say really

 

[MiamiWolfe]

My biggest issue (on both sides of the discussion) is the name calling (eg bashers, haters, bullies, or tweeners etc.). This IMO is totally disrespectful to anyone. I honestly can't say I haven't been guilty in some respect or another. We need to respect each others opinions on this.

And this is my bone of contention as well. If you are a shipper and like E/C, I honestly don't have an issue with it. The issue begin for me when the name calling starts and opposing opinions are treated as if they don't count and have no business being expressed.

I can't say that I will ever be a fan of E/C, I see no chemistry (but as stated by Delquesne, it is in the eye of the beholder), it has too much emphasis placed on it and too much drama surrounding it. I really beleive two main characters can have that relationship without it taking over and drowning out the procedural drama and other existing characters. This all goes back to bad writing.

There really shouldn't be any hostile reactions to each fanbase. We're all fans of the show (for various reasons). I myself prefer the earlier seasons and the team work aspect. Too much drama is given to E/C and I don't like it as it's repetitive. Togo is a GREAT actor and Eva has definitely come into her own, so I would love these two out in front. If CBS want to make budget cuts, why not alternate characters for a few episodes?

To be quite honest the only people I really have a beef with is the CSI:M writers. At times, the writing is horrible at best and the chair I am sitting on has more imagination than this group. And I can never understand: why develop a character, hire an actor to play them and then just IGNORE them?!! Maybe that is why season after season we have the same themes repeated over and over; Eric and/or Calleigh in the ER and at death's door, Ryan in trouble, no defining moment, little or no follow through on story arcs, plot holes large enough to drive a semi through, etc.

I have no problem with there being a dislike thread for those who want to vent because I can just stay away from it and let it be that. My biggest dissapointment is that it all spills out to the other threads in the Miami Forum.Just my opinion.

I said this in my original posting but I guess it bears repeating; the reason why the discussion spills into other threads is that the fans of the other characters feel, that their favorites are being pushed to the background, underutilized and ignored because of this particular story arc and they express this view as it pertains to the eppie, etc.

That's not fair unless all of the pro-EC comments are removed from every thread but the shipper thread as well. Because there have been extensive pro-EC comments in spoiler/character/episode threads too and I know that just as some of us EC shippers have felt put off by anti-EC comments in threads, non-fans of EC have been put off by the pro-EC comments. It works both ways and both sides are just as entitled to voice their opinions.

EC is canon. And everybody knows how heavily they've played into the main storylines this season. Therefore, there are going to be comments, both pro and against, in threads other than the shipper thread and the dislike thread. If they relate to the storyline at hand, there is no reason why the EC interaction shouldn't be discussed, positively or negatively. Like it or not, they do affect the storyline and the team dynamic, etc

Thank you Jessica237!! You articulated this point very well; the one I have been trying to make.

I've never hid the fact that I don't like Ryan but I barely mention him (first because I don't find it interesting to talk about him) but also because I would be constantly pissing people off by always saying negative stuff about him. I know I can say those things, I know I'm entitled to my opinion about him, and that I can express it everytime I want, but if I'm in a forum to discuss a show we all enjoy then I try to be careful about where, when, and why I voice this dislike, because if it is a constant, constant, constant thing then it just ruins the atmosphere.

Like you said, there are a few characters in the show that I really don't care for ( Ryan, Natalia...etc.). I could use the same logic and say that I`m entitled to my opinion and repeatedly voice negative comments about them. However, I always refrain from doing so. That would only serve to instigate negative discussions and create animosity. If I can`t say something nice about a character, I won`t say anything at all.

And this is exactly what I do as well. I neither like E/C and I have less than no interest in it (and probably never will), and, as those of you who don't care for my favorites, I am also entitled to my opinion. I try and keep my personal views about E/C in the appropriate place: The Dislike thread where I feel free to voice my negative comments. Then, when I reach the individual eppie threads, I will discuss the parts of that eppie that interest me ( Ryan, Natalia, H), and leave the discussion of the E/C moments to those it actually enjoy it. Even though we are all watching the same show, we all get and want something different out of it and that is what we all need to remember.

Ok, I think I've been going off track a bit. I just feel that we should be respectful of one another and appreciate the fact that people have different opinions on the show. Each "side" has very vaild points.

Some people are just never going to like EC. That's a fact. They don't deserve to be attacked any more than people who do like EC deserved to be attacked. It's a matter of opinion, and if you (general 'you' throughout this paragraph, not directed at anyone in particular) can't respect other people's opinions when it comes to a tv show, then what are you going to do in the real world, where a lack of respect and understanding can actually get you in trouble? If you don't want to hear what someone has to say, then don't read their posts if you know it's going to inflame you. But there's no reason to belittle people on either side just because someone's opinion doesn't mesh with yours.

I absolutely agree. Nothing more to add.

 

[hiphugger17]

Like I said on my earlier post, I have no prob with people expressing their negative opinion about EC or the characters if it pertains to the discussion being spoiler, episodes, etc. What I have a problem with is when the subject has nothing to do with them and yet they are still being singled out and talked about sometimes in a rather harsh way. This is when IMO it gets repetitive and ruins the atmosphere because I perceive it like people are talking about them just for the sake of talking about them not because it pertains or adds to the discussion. That's what frustrates me because I perceive it like it's just for the sake of arguing or causing discontent to the fans of said characters. It's like if we were talking about a spoiler having to do with Horatio and in my post I add a negative comment about Ryan, then I go to the episode thread and I write all my negative comments about Ryan and then to the picture thread and there's pics of Natalia and Walter and I write negative comments about Ryan and then to the the wish thread and I write my wishes with negative comments about Ryan...get my drift? Sometime I feel everywhere I go no matter what the discussion is about I'm just reading the same posts over and over again.

But I guess we can go around and around with this and never comprehend each other 100% because it's pretty hard to express oneself fully simply by writing. However I wanted to make clear that I have no prob with people disliking characters cause we all have some that are not our cup of tea. I just feel that at times some post are like beating a dead horse.

 

[jean10brook]

I’ve only been on the boards about a year, but a hiphugger fan since Season 1. I have read hundreds of posts both pro and con and agree with points on both sides.

As a hiphugger, I
· Totally agree that way too much time has been taken to develop the E/C storyline.
· Totally agree that Eric and Calleigh have had way too much drama as individuals; hospitalizations, smoke inhalation, gun shot wounds, deaths, etc.
· Totally agree that Ryan, Natalia and Frank deserve more screen-time.
· Totally agree that Crime Fighting and Forensics should be the main focus of the show and that Eric and Calleigh's relationship should be a back-story.
· Totally understand most of the viewpoints of non-shippers, that there are those that don’t see any E/C Chemistry, don’t want a romance on the show, etc. Although I may not agree or feel the same way about certain issues, I can certainly agree to disagree and respect everyone’s opinions.

I totally disagree with name calling, arguing, bashing, lying to get your point across and personally attacking a poster for their opinion. Unfortunately, some posters feel their view is the only correct view, even though they are unable to substantiate their claim and refuse to agree to disagree. Some posters purposely go on opposing threads just to start fights with people and it really does become hateful. I have even seen posters recruit other posters to join in. I have seen this with both shippers and non-shippers. It has given both sides a bad name and caused a division in the fan base.

The biggest Non-shipper complaint is that they blame the lack of screen-time for Ryan, Nat and Frank directly on the E/C relationship. This is one point where I mostly disagree.

I agree:
· The writer's have taken way too much time to bring Eric and Calleigh together as a couple.
· Horatio/Eric/Calleigh get the most screen-time. They are the main characters there from the beginning.
· Ryan, Natalia and Frank need way more screen-time and their talents are underused.
· The show need better balance.

I disagree:
· That the screen-time issue is because of the E/C relationship.

Grant it, Eric and Calleigh are in numerous scenes, either individually or together and get a lot of screen-time. However, they are “WORKING” as CSI’s, in most of these scenes. Their “couple” scenes are usually brief and not in every episode. Even though Eric and Calleigh are my two favorite characters and I would love to see them all the time, I feel there are plenty of times when Ryan, Natalia or Frank could be used instead.

My solution:
· Both sides need to understand the opposing view has a right to their opinions. Just because someone does not agree with your opinion, it is ok, don’t take it personal and don’t argue about it.
· Don’t post your opinions on the opposing opinions thread. Meaning: as an E/C Shipper, I don’t go to a non-E/C shipper thread, read how they don’t like the relationship and then post comments telling them they are wrong, etc. Same for non-E/C shippers.
· Understand that TPTB are the ones that write the scripts, determine storylines and the characters used during each scene. Blaming everything on the E/C relationship, an Actor, etc., and arguing amongst ourselves won’t ever fix the problem. If you are unhappy with any aspect of the show, contact CBS about it. They are the only ones that make the changes.

 

[GrueGilsGal]

I'm all for a sweet romance between the pair, just not as a main story line. I'd rather see how their growing feelings for each other help them over rough patches in their working relationship, color their judgment when dealing with similarly linked issues in a case or two...that sort of thing. I'd rather learn of their home life through brief comments, sly glances, and coded language they use to communicate when they're at work. That's how it goes in the real world, so why not at CSIM too?

 

[yen35]

I have only been on the forum for a few weeks. I agree with everything that Delquesne and most things that jean10brook say. I watch this show with my sister. We both love the show. I like EC as a couple very much but my sister doesn't at all. I am rather surprised though as to why whether or not you like this couple would prevent a person from enjoying the show. Some of our favourite episodes have nothing to do with the pairing. 'Getting axed' where we enjoyed the office dynamics, 'Dishonour' with the concept of arranged marriages, hostile takeover and how the team used science to solve the pop star catching fire on stage or the killing with the japanese sword (can't recall the names of these two season 8 episodes). Even when there are actually EC scenes, they don't last long at all do they? In that episode 'Mommy deadest' the EC scene ( which I rewatched many times when my sister was not there!) lasted for less than 30 seconds and that certainly wasn't long enough to annoy my sister or stop her from enjoying the episode. If it was longer, it probably would have bugged her.

However, I do agree with what someone said that more screen time should be given to Natalia cos we were just watching some season 5 episodes and she was in them alot more but like some other person said surely, this is not because of the EC romance is it cos that doesn't take up that much screen time.

I don't think that having a romance on a crime show makes the show any less better provided the plot is good, which in season 8 nearly all episodes it was brilliant. A balanced time has been dedicated to the Lindsay- Danny romance in NY (which my sister loves) so there's nothing wrong with EC having a romance altho like someone above said, they took an awfully long time to actually get together!

 

[miamirocks]

I am rather surprised though as to why whether or not you like this couple would prevent a person from enjoying the show. Some of our favourite episodes have nothing to do with the pairing.

Hmm...perhaps you could look back at some of the previous posts - I think our opinions are well-stated there. I don't mean to be rude, and I want to welcome you to the boards, but for us anti-EC fans this conversation is getting frustrating and old. This is not merely about "disliking" a pairing, it's about the way in which it was done and the direction in which it has taken the characters and the show.

It "prevents" me from watching the show b/c, for example, I don't want to see E/C having sex while Ryan gets beat up, even if it's "not that long." I don't like seeing Calleigh make fun of Ryan w/Eric - it doesn't fit her character. I don't like the smarmy comments Delko makes to her about their sex life. I don't like the constant drama surrounding the two of them, which has almost taken over the entire show. You can't watch Miami w/out being reminded that they are "the couple." And the way they were put together, IMHO, doesn't make sense w/their characters nor has it made their characters better, nor has their relationship revealed anything new about the characters - I know neither of them better than I did in Season 5. IMHO, the relationship has made them more distant from the team and more one-dimensional b/c it's all about just the two of them, and their interactions w/everyone else are either cold or non-existent.

Even when there are actually EC scenes, they don't last long at all do they? In that episode 'Mommy deadest' the EC scene ( which I rewatched many times when my sister was not there!) lasted for less than 30 seconds and that certainly wasn't long enough to annoy my sister or stop her from enjoying the episode. If it was longer, it probably would have bugged her.

Your sister has a pretty good tolerance level, I would say. Please see my comments above. This is not about how "long" the scene is - it's about how this relationship is affecting the characters, and it affects them whether there's a "romance" scene or not. It's just always "there," no matter what - just look at the finale. Did Eric really have to rush to Calleigh in that last scene when EVERYONE in the lab was down? It always comes back to Eric and Calleigh, and many of us are just tired of it - it's not about how long they're on screen w/these scenes (which I think is way more air time than even H and Marisol had, and they got married), it's about how it's affecting the show.

I don't think that having a romance on a crime show makes the show any less better provided the plot is good, which in season 8 nearly all episodes it was brilliant.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I beg to differ. A romance can make or break any show if it's done poorly and turns off the audience. If characters change in a bad way, which I believe both Eric and Cal have (hot-shots, removed from the team, poor interactions w/anyone but each other, etc), because of their relationship, then the romance can definitely make the show worse.

 

[hahagirl]

I have to say that I don't mind Eric and Calleigh. I think they could have been written better, but they are okay in my book as a couple. My only question is why some of you want so much of them in the episodes? I can understand if they're your favorite characters and you think they are cute together, but I don't think that every story has to be for them. I'm not speaking of all avid Hiphuggers, but some of the posts I have read suggest that they should have the most screen time.

In the end, it's not up to me or anybody else here but the writers.

 

[yen35]

I want to reply to somethings in the post by miamirocks (yesterday at 5:09 pm) but I can't figure out how to get those comments in a box! Not very computer literate! I highlighted them and clicking quote or cut and paste but it doesn't work! Anyway, I read every single post in this thread. Most interesting debate. I've never seen anything like it. I'm speechless and really sad that there is such a divided opinion!
I've watched all the eps, some multiple times. In which ep does Calleigh make fun of Ryan with Eric? I don't recall that. And about Eric rushing to Calleigh when every1 in the lab was down- If I opened the office door and saw everyone fallen down, I am not sure what I would have done but I think I would have checked to see if my best friend ( or if I had a boyfriend, if he) is OK 1st even b4 calling the emergency services or checking if others are OK.
I don't see that the character development has been affected because of this relationship but thats probably just me because I saw alot of ppl have commented on that so there must be some truth in it even tho I don't agree. For me, the actors and characters are just as good as they were in season 1 or better.
I prefer the stories in seasons 5-8 to the earlier seasons. Even my sis, who doesn't like this romance at all, really enjoyed for e.g. this ep 'in the wind'. We thought it was cool how they brought in the big wind machine to mimic the weather conditions from all those years ago. There was some good team work there (even with some EC scenes) and the story (how the prosecutor got the old lady to change her story etc) was very well done.
So, I hear everyone's opinion but mine is that I will continue to watch and enjoy the show so long as the plots are well done and H, Eric, Calleigh, Ryan and Natalia all play equal roles. As for this romance, there seem to be equal number of ppl for and against. So I agree with the last sentence made by Haha girl (yesterday at 8.15 pm), although if they break up, that'll cause another drama which I am sure no one here wants!

 

[FieldMouse]

I want to reply to somethings in the post by miamirocks (yesterday at 5:09 pm) but I can't figure out how to get those comments in a box!

Yen35, If you want to quote from a single post, you should be able to click on the "quote" button below the post, and it will prefill that post in the response with the correct tags. You can always remove any parts you don't want to quote. If you want to quote from more than one post, click on the "multi quote" button on each post you want to quote from, and then on "post reply". That should pre-fill them all for you. Hope this helps!

 

[yen35]

Thanks FieldMouse!

 

[jean10brook]

This is in response to MiamiRocks comments:

I can't believe people actually think Eric and Calleigh would actually chose to go home and make love, knowing that Ryan was being beat up. Why would you think that? Calleigh and Eric did not know that Ryan had been kidnapped, let alone that he was being beat up by the Russian's. Even H did not know. So why are you blaming it on E/C? Just because they happened to flash back and forth between the E/C scene and the Ryan scene, does not even mean it was happening at the same time. I realize it might give off that appearance, but Eric and Calleigh's would have been there to help Ryan, had they known about it.

Calleigh asked Ryan to confide in her and he just leaves, claiming he wasn't hiding anything. He was acting strange and Eric, Calleigh and H could see that and knew something was up, but under the circumstances, Ryan felt he had to take care of the situation on his own and not ask his team for help. So when you refer to Calleigh making fun of Ryan with Eric, I suspect you are referring to when they were in the lab working the case and Ryan brought in the bullet he scooped up at the crime scene. They were not making fun of Ryan. They were frustrated with him for taking evidence from a crime scene, he broke protocol, and Eric and Calleigh had no knowledge at that time that Ryan was trying to save Billy. Also, when they confronted Ryan, he offered up no explaination as to why he took the bullet. So, Eric told him to get out. Can you blame him? What if you had been working hard all day trying to find a killer and then you find out one of your co-workers withheld evidence that would change the outcome of the case and offered no explaination. I would have asked him to leave too.

Obviously, after Billy was safe, Ryan probably explained the situation and in the following epi's, his relationship with Calleigh and Ryan was fine. I realize you are a H/Calleigh shipper, which is fine and I understand that people see things the way they want to see them on both sides to make their points appear valid. But viewers need to keep things in context. As for your comment about Eric making smarmy comments about their sex life, I have no clue what you are talking about and would like to know what he actually said to make you think that?

 

[CSIMandy]

Excellent thread Delquesne, I couldn't agree more with your original post! Kudos to you!

 

[mjszud]

I thought this was a thread for fans and non-fans to call a "truce", not state why we like or dislike the storyline/pairing, or to use it as a debate thread.

 

[miamirocks]

I thought this was a thread for fans and non-fans to call a "truce", not state why we like or dislike the storyline/pairing, or to use it as a debate thread.

Thank you! As for the previous comments, all I'm going to say is rewatch the last two seasons.

See if you think Eric and Calleigh treat Ryan fairly - there's a lot of Ryan fans out there who don't think so. And I just don't mean the characters, I mean the writers - us non-E/C fans are tired of E/C hijacking decent storylines (like the episode w/Ryan) w/sensationalistic or over-the-top dramatic scenes, etc. (It wasn't about whether Eric and Cal knew he was kidnapped - it's the way it comes off on-screen).

Now to Eric - there are several "smarmy" remarks he's made over the years - that's just who Eric is, and it has happened during E/C too. Just look at the name of the E/C shipper thread to see what I'm talking about - that comment was made in a smarmy way, IMHO - and I've seen other interactions between them that I can't remember verbatim right now, but others have cited them. If you want to know details, just re-read this thread or put out a question to other non-E/C shippers - I'm sure they can fill you in better on what I'm talking about as I'm just starting to catch up on the last two season.

As for your comments about my favorite pairing, as I've said MANY times before, this debate has gone FAR beyond "I don't agree with your ship" - it's way more than that. It's poor writing, poor directing, poor choice in where the characters are going. This is not just my opinion, but there are many others who feel the same (as you can see). And I'll just note that I've never had a problem w/Cal's other relationships - b/c they actually furthered her character and helped the viewer understand who she is as a person, and not just a piece of meat.

I can't believe that after all this time we're still arguing about this. Non-E/C fans have made our points loud and clear and laid everything on the table. The points are valid and we are looking at things in context - just re-read this thread and you'll see that.