Switch of scenes in episode 4x19

It just makes me el-oh-el. :lol:

What's canon is canon and all that jazz, but it's nice to know that there is a reasonable explanation for Danny's sudden weepy behavior in the middle of the episode when there was nothing we saw that would explain it. Danny laughs at Flack's line about 'pissing Lindsay off more' at the beginning, then he misses her sooo much that he has to call her sounding drunk and needy within a day or two? It all just didn't fit together.

Whatever the order or the implication, the end result is the same--we lost Rikki (a shame if you ask me, Jacqueline was great and we probably won't see much continuity about Danny's feelings re: Ruben after this), Danny lost his balls again, and the writers are clearly trying to drag the D/L stuff out until the finale because heaven forbid they actually TALK and just get it the hell over with.

 

Yeah exactly. I really didn't see how his emotional state worked in the context, but it makes much more sense to me now that the switch has been revealed. To be honest, I think it makes Lindsay look like sloppy seconds - a choice made from a lack of options.

Yeah, I think it's a shame that development and continuity has been sacrificed for this stupid romance. And yeah, either way, they need to just talk...like adults. *looks at Lindsay*

 

Impressive detective work! I thought it flowed weirdly but that seems to be a common thing these days in NY but it makes sense for the scenes to be flipped hum I wonder why they did that?

 

Thanks for the input, everyone! Heh, only thing surprising me about the situation is that TPTB actually thought no one would notice the switch. Or Danny's bizarre behavior change as if he became bi-polar. Or that awful, rough job of a black blob. :guffaw:

... Thank you, Sammy11. Now not only will I be laughing my head off at Danny sounding like he got possessed by a drunk werewolf spirit, I will be laughing at that moment too thanks to what you said! :lol:

And this is the precise reason why I believe TPTB chose to switch the scenes. Yep, it would instantly kill any suspense for D/L that TPTB's decided to drag all the way into the finale. I do find it intriguing that TPTB went so far with the writing and filming of the scenes for episode 4x19 and then switched them at such a late hour, so to speak.

They filmed episodes 18 and 19 simultaneously, yes, but if that's the case and Danny's scenes were filmed early on and in one shot and if TPTB had intended the scenes to be shown as they were in the episode from the beginning ... why didn't they bother taking out Ruben's pamphlet and Rikki's sugar gift instead of hastily painting a black blob over them?

That's because they didn't. The fact that there's a black blob there to cover up the items in the episode proves that TPTB had always intended to show the scenes unswitched right up to the very last minute. As for the presumption that TPTB 'didn't know how the scenes would come across until they finished shooting', I don't agree with that at all, especially not after the proof up there that Ruben's pamphlet and Rikki's gift was indeed in the scene but blocked by the black blob.

The items would never have been there unless it was written in the script, and since we have proof now that the scenes were switched at the very last minute, it was very likely written in the script too that the Danny/Rikki scene came first. TPTB certainly knew what the scenes would be like before shooting even began. The writers are the ones who set the entire story in motion and really, what kind of decent writer wouldn't know how their scenes would play out once they've written it down on paper, much less after the script's been finalized and is filmed?

Heh. In my humble opinion, TPTB definitely switched the scenes to continue keeping people in the dark about D/L. If the scenes hadn't been switched, like some of you have said here, there would have been no doubt whatsoever that Danny only called Lindsay up because he'd lost his true source of comfort and was settling for second best, seeing as he didn't mind giving comfort to Rikki and receiving comfort from Rikki right up until 4x19.

And speaking of Rikki, yes, it's true that Danny told Rikki the 'thing' between them was bad for them but he also specifically told her she was right. He wasn't telling her off for what they had done or 'dumping her for Lindsay'. He was telling her what he believed would make her happy and keep her in his life. In fact, he was telling her that he was in the wrong for trying to convince her it was something that benefited them rather than cause more problems. Not only that, like snickerdoodle said, he never said anything about not wanting the 'thing between him and Rikki to end because he was 'hurting someone else AKA Lindsay'. Lindsay didn't even pop up once in any of the Danny/Rikki scenes, not even in the goodbye scene. He wanted to stop because he realized it was the right thing to do. Like I mentioned in the grading thread before, his decision to stop the grief-comfort sex with Rikki was irrelevant to D/L.

Look at Danny's face after he finds out Rikki's leaving his life:



That is not the face of a man who's happy to end everything with Rikki and never see her again. That's the face of a man who realized that no matter what he said or did at that point, he was going to lose someone he cared for very much, someone who's been his closest source of comfort all this time. And if Rikki's teary eyes were anything to go by, it was just as difficult for her to say goodbye to him as it was for Danny to say goodbye to her. I think if Danny felt he had any choice, he would have wanted her to stay in his life so he could atone to her in a better way, so to speak, rather than her leave him without mending things completely.

Did I mention Danny called her back after she walked away from him the first time in the scene? That's when she touched him on the face like in the screencap and told him he was a sweet man.

So even with the scenes switched as they are, it will still be extremely out of left field if Danny suddenly pops the 'L' word to Lindsay in the finale. :guffaw: Actually, thanks to the switch, it now seems whatever decisions Danny makes relationship-wise will be heavily influenced by Rikki leaving his life, as well as his grief over Ruben. Now he has even more to blame on himself. He probably believes he drove Rikki away with the grief-comfort sex and ended up causing her more pain than he already has. Geez, Danny, you are one messed up dude! :lol:

Exactly!

:lol::lol::lol: That really would have been boring overkill!

 

Totally agree. They flipped it and there it is.
I get why they flipped it, I just don't understand what they thought they were achieving in doing so... :wtf:

I mean I think non-D/L fans and D/L fans alike would like the status of their relationship resolved now. I don't think dragging it out is actually good for the show (maybe it is I don't know) but it is aggraviting me more now.

Just get it over with already!! :scream:

I thank you. *takes bow*
I try I really do.

 

You guys are brilliant. Seriously. Add me to the list of people who found Danny's behaviour too weird, even for him, and I'm glad there seems to be a reason for that. I'm going to rewatch the scene and grin from ear to ear. *lol*

Even though this won't probably change anything as far as D/L is concerned it was like a small ray of hope in all this mess. Maybe there's at least someone in the writing room who doesn't entirely believe the two lovebirds should ride off into the sunset...

 

Honestly I hadn't thought about the switching scenes, but to me it doesn't make a difference at all. Either order of the scenes makes absolute sense, although the choice they made for canon makes better sense to me.

Scenario One: The Canon Scenario

Danny's depression when he's talking to Lindsay makes sense. He has been trying to talk to her; even after he laughs at Don's teasing comment about pissing Lindsay off he still tries to get her to talk to him. So that has no bearing at all on what people are calling the 'weepy, drunken werewolf' Danny.

Danny wants to talk to Lindsay. It's been shown in canon more than once, so when he finally gets to talk to her, he's serious. Unfortunately for him, Lindsay isn't willing to bite, and their call ends.

Enter Rikki. Danny does not look especially happy to see Rikki when he answers the door. He begins to tell her that they should break off their sex, and she interrupts Danny to tell him she's moving.

There's a moment of what I like to call "What could have been", and then she walks off. Danny goes inside his apartment and looks at Ruben's photo and sits, contemplating and hopefully finally facing the grief he's been running from all this time.

Scenario Two: Alternate Universe Style

Rikki knocks on Danny's door. He answers the door, not looking especially happy, and begins to break up with her. She interrupts him to tell him that she's moving. They have their "what could have been" moment and Rikki leaves.

Danny goes inside, picks up Ruben's memorial card and contemplates it. After sitting for a while he gets his cell phone out and calls Lindsay, who is walking in the rain.

He tells her he understands a lot of things now, like how much he misses her. He is serious, but Lindsay is wary and unconvinced, so the call ends.

---

The story flows much better from the first perspective, although Scenario Two might have worked if we saw Danny at the end of the conversation with Lindsay gazing out the window or looking back down at Ruben's card.

Scenario number one also does a much better job of portraying Danny's isolation and grief than Scenario two, and as a bonus it doesn't make him look like an utter bastard.

 

It may not make a difference to you, but it certainly make a difference to others, a huge difference in context. As explained in previous posts by multiple people in the thread, placing the Danny/Rikki scene would have made all the difference in how Danny's behavior and actions and even his words is perceived. Why else did TPTB go to the trouble of switching the scenes at the very last minute, to the point of masking out Ruben's pamphlet and Rikki's gift in such a rough way? It's all about context.

He's been trying to get Lindsay to talk to him for weeks, and in all that time, he never once showed himself to be depressed that Lindsay wasn't talking to him. Frustrated, maybe, but depressed? No. In fact, we didn't even see him being remotely upset about Lindsay not talking to him until the phone call in this episode and since we have proof that TPTB had switched the placement of scenes, TPTB had intended for Danny to call Lindsay only after he found out that Rikki was moving away and leaving his life.

Of course, since in the episode itself the scenes were switched, Danny being all emo is now just completely out of left field. And Danny laughing at Flack's comment does have some bearing if you look at the situation throughout the last couple of episodes and not just limit things to this one episode. It fits in together with Danny never having shown any upset or depression over Lindsay not talking to him. And yeah, Danny did try to talk to Lindsay afterwards but as I said, he's been doing this for weeks. No different this time than any other time before.

We're going to be disagreeing here. If he wasn't happy to see her, he wouldn't have accepted her gift, much less chuckled or called her back to him after she walked away the first time. Sure, he didn't leap into the air with joy and he assumed she might be there wanting a booty call but he certainly wasn't upset to see her either.

And if he wanted her gone, he wouldn't have looked as upset as he did upon hearing she was moving away, would he?

In your scenario two, you completely omitted the fact Danny was upset at Rikki moving away. That alone changes the entire context of the scenes as well as its placements. To me, that makes scenario two a much better job of showing Danny's isolation and grief. Nothing like believing you've driven away the woman you've cared about because you messed up not once, but twice with her to make a guy feel even more alone and torn up.

 

I agree that he wasn't telling her off or 'dumping her for Lindsay'. I don't think it was possible for him to dump Rikki because whatever was between them was purely a short term, comfort seeking and giving interlude. I really don't see how you figure out this as being his way of keeping Rikki in his life. To me it was closure, it was Danny making a conscious decision, knowing that Rikki understood the state of play after her acknowledgement of them using each other in RND. It was never a question of this relationship continuing imo.

And I don't believe it was ever a case of him choosing between Lindsay or Rikki, hence why I don't get the 'second choice' issue if he and Lindsay decide to make a go of things. I believe that Danny's actions with Rikki were purely grief driven. I'm not really sure what was driving his actions with Lindsay because it isn't clear and hasn't played out yet.

Not only did Danny tell Rikki what was between them wasn't good for either of them, he also wasn't comfortable inviting her into his apartment. He was consciously pulling back. I'm not saying that has anything to do with Lindsay, because really we don't know.

Interesting. That to me was the face of a man forcing himself to face up to the truth of the situation. Yes, there's no doubt that Rikki was the source of his closest comfort but this was Danny finally accepting that the comfort he was getting wasn't what either of them needed.

To me, this whole scene wasn't even really about Danny and Rikki. It was about Ruben. Just like I don't think it has ever been about Lindsay coming second place to Rikki, if anything the thing Lindsay has come second place to is Danny's guilt/grief.

 

Even if Danny was telling Rikki that yes, he had come to agree with her that sleeping together was a bad idea, that doesn't imply that he was shutting her out of his life altogether. Whether they sought comfort that way or not, they still had a connection, they could still grieve together, they could still be there for each other.

Ending the sexual part of their relationship doesn't automatically mean ending the entire relationship--and a relationship doesn't have to be romantic to be important or worth trying to salvage.

 

Switched scenes or not, what we got for canon is what we got. Whatever the original intent was, the writers and/or TPTB decided that a switch needed to be made, and I agree with their choice. From a storytelling and character perspective it was the better choice. The ending was far more compelling than it would have been if it looked like Danny only called Lindsay after Rikki told him she was moving.

My own interpretation of the phone call scene is that after work Danny was left with nothing but his own thoughts. He probably thought over what the past few weeks had been like, and come to some decisions about what needed to be done.

One of those decisions, we see later, is that he chooses to end things with Rikki. So maybe that plays into his depression. He's depressed because he knows that what he has with Rikki isn't good for either of them but he's reluctant to let go of it.

That fits perfectly with canon and I just realized as I was typing it out that it also can satisfy your need for context on the emotions Danny has within the phone call.

Danny is always emo. So technically this is not out of left field. However, I did address that concern above, so I think we can make it work into canon.

If Danny had done some stupid guy handshake or done a high-five and said, "Hell yeah, I should", then I could see where you're coming from. As it appears on screen, Danny kind of smiles and chuckles for a brief moment. I wouldn't go so far as to say he laughs and is in absolute agreement, or that Flack was being overly serious or joyful that Lindsay is upset with Danny.

And I think Danny has been upset that Lindsay doesn't want to have that talk with him. He's definitely frustrated and I definitely feel like the tone of his attempts to speak with her have become more serious and more earnest.

Danny has never approached Lindsay with a tone of voice that indicates he wants to have the kind of discussion she was hoping for. He always made it seem casual, and he never seems serious, although as I said above, he is getting more urgent.

He says in the phone call that he understands a lot of things now. I think that he is finally telling the truth and that he finally gets it. Whether or not Lindsay ever believes that (at the moment it looks like she doesn't) is going to be the question.

Perhaps I could have used better wording; I did not mean to indicate that Danny suddenly had an uncontrollable dislike of Rikki. I simply meant that he wasn't happy to see her.

I can think of several things to attribute that to; he was hoping Lindsay would show up and didn't want to be caught in an awkward moment; he isn't ready to break things off with Rikki; he wanted to prepare himself more before he approached Rikki...that kind of thing.

That's what I meant.

I don't think I ever said he wanted her to be gone, and I certainly never implied that he was pleased that she was leaving. In fact, I said that there was a moment of "What could have been" lingering between them.

I have to disagree, because I don't actually think it's the relationships the writers want to focus on. It's Danny's grief. The two people who understand the most what he's going through are now gone from his life, at least at the moment.

Having him pick up Ruben's card and face the grief was the importance of this episode. Remember, the memorial card was hidden from sight, just like his grief.

I don't expect that he's going to be 'all better', but he's beginning to face his problems instead of running from them, and that's part of the healing process.

This was a fabulous way to have Danny begin to heal, and again, I really believe the right decision was made to switch the scenes.

 

I don't think Danny wanted her gone, I also don't think he was unhappy to see her. It's interesting you talk about context and how that can alter your perception. I had that discussion recently where I argued the context that made me believe Lindsay DID offer support to Danny during his grief because we saw her approaching him and him walking away, then her 'I'm not good at this' talk with Mac (which to me was her asking for advice) followed by her heading out of the morgue in the same direction that Danny went (which was the opposite direction to the way she walked in). Yet still some people didn't see it that way, arguing that her talk with Mac was just her 'me, me, me' attitude and the fact we didn't actually see her talking to Danny meant it didn't happen. It all boils down to perception and context is still open to interpretation, often based on people's likes and dislikes. Interesting to debate though.

And again, I don't see Danny being upset as a result of Rikki simply leaving. It goes much deeper than that, and ultimately is about Ruben and Danny's belief that his actions contributed to to his death. That is what his relationship with Rikki is based on and while I think she will be someone he will always remember and part of a memory he will always hold onto, the context for me was that of a brief affair borne out of guilt, grief and shared misery that could never be anything more.

I guess the difference in our perceptions comes from our differences in terms of Rikki's significance in Danny's life. I've never viewed it as anything more than two people coming together because of a shared and tragic experience. I guess if you viewed it as having the potential for something more then you would see it as being about the two of them as well as Ruben instead of the two of them as a result of Ruben's death.

I wouldn't have seen it as him shutting her out of his life forever - at all, that's not really Danny's style I don't think. But, the fact that they didn't really have a relationship (other than passing in the hall etc) before Ruben died makes me question how 'healthy' that relationship (whatever it's context) would have been had they tried to salvage anything from it.

 

Danny is someone who's been abandoned by people he cared about in the past. Think of his brother, Louie. All Louie did was push him away in front of his Tanglewood pals, and Danny kept that to heart for fifteen years. When Danny believes he's losing or has lost someone close to him, it hits him really hard and it stays with him for a very, very long time.

When Rikki went to see Danny, Danny only brought up the 'thing' between them being bad after Rikki asks whether she can come in or not. At that time, Danny was assuming Rikki was seeing him for sex, which also implies that right up until that point, Danny and Rikki were very likely still sleeping together, throughout the whole time Danny was attempting to talk to Lindsay in the last few weeks. He wouldn't have had to tell Rikki only then if they had already stopped before.

So my statement that he said she was right was him wanting to keep her in his life was him thinking that telling her what she wanted to hear would decrease his chances of driving her away. To him, the sex was what he felt was all he had to give Rikki for comfort and now that he's decided to stop giving it to her, well, there would be no longer a reason for her to go to him, would there? Like I said, he's lost people he cared very much about in the past. He's been burnt by it and in his mind, saying and doing whatever it takes to make the other person happy seems to be the most effective route to him to stop people from abandoning him again.

As for the relationship never continuing, as I mentioned before, he told her she was right about the 'thing' between them was a bad thing and yes, acknowledging what she said in episode 4x16. He never mentioned anything about not wanting to see her again. Not continuing the sex =/= not continuing their friendship/relationship. And there's the on screen fact that he became visibly upset only after she told him she was moving away. He even went, "You're moving?" Until that instant, Danny was presuming Rikki wasn't going anywhere and was staying in the building like she always has, where he can still see her even though he made the conscious decision to end the 'thing' between them.

Well, you're right. It was never a case of him choosing between Lindsay and Rikki. In his lowest point, he went to Rikki for comfort, even after Lindsay attempted to approach him on the day Ruben died.

Yes, Danny was definitely accepting that the 'thing' between them was not a good thing, but he didn't look so upset until after Rikki told him she was moving away. Before, when he was talking to her about her being right about their 'thing', he didn't look upset like that at all. He looked as if he was hoping she would understand his change of mind and not get angry at him for deciding to stop the sex they were having. Rikki even cut him off before he could say anything like sorry and asked him to just say goodbye, and that implies to me she knew he was going to blame himself for making her move away even though that was a conscious decision on her part.

Interesting point on Danny's guilt/grief! Yeah, Lindsay has come second place to it, but again, there's the canonical event that Danny turned to Rikki, which meant Rikki didn't come second place to his guilt/grief.

The issue I have with this is the noticeable variance in Danny's behavior in the scenes. If he was already so depressed about having to end things with Rikki in the Danny/Lindsay scene, he should have appeared even more depressed in the Danny/Rikki scene when Rikki showed up at his door to talk to him. Heh, now that I think about it, if his motive had been to get Lindsay to talk to him, yes, he should definitely have been much more depressed in the Danny/Rikki scene because he didn't get what he wanted. Instead, when Rikki shows up, he doesn't look the least depressed and is calm and fine until Rikki tells him she's moving away.

So yeah. Props being masked by a black blob, sure, I can chalk that up to a continuity error. Very damning evidence that TPTB had wholly intended to show the scenes unswitched until the very last minute but I can chalk it up to continuity error.

It's Carmine's acting performance that really busted things, as described above. Carmine has always delivered his scenes well, so the bizarre switch from one mood to another in a matter of minutes was very apparent. Of course, if the scenes hadn't been switched, Danny's behavior in both scenes would have made perfect sense.

:lol: Yes, he is. The thing is, in past episodes whenever he was shown to be very emotional, there was always a series of scenes/events leading up to the emotional one. The issue people have with Danny suddenly being all emo in this particular scene is that there hasn't been any for it. When Lindsay got all annoyed with him for turning down lunch, he called her out on it and even asked her what was wrong with him doing that. Then he talks to her and interacts with her like they're just friends and mentions renting Jaws, and doesn't look the least depressed or even guilty or remorseful about what he said, even after she walks away from him. He never acted depressed or upset. Then, you have him at the basketball game with Flack and he laughs about pissing off Lindsay more often. And then, you have him trying to talk to her and her turning him down every time, even telling him off for bringing it up at work when she's done the exact thing in the past.

And then, out of the blue, Danny goes all emo and calls Lindsay up. His past behavior doesn't add up to that one scene. Like snickerdoodle mentioned in an earlier post, I understand that Danny would miss Lindsay's friendship (hence him telling her he misses her), but I certainly don't buy the sudden and extreme emo-ness from Danny, not unless I see the scenes unswitched and that Rikki moving away and leaving his life has influenced his behavior.

Interesting perspective! I do find it intriguing he left it on his coffee table, of all places, where he could see it all the time. If he had wanted to hide it/his grief, he would probably have kept it in a place where he wouldn't have to see it/know it's there every time he sits on his couch or passes his coffee table. It's also intriguing to me that he picked up the pamphlet after Rikki tells him she's moving away and left. To me, him looking at it and still keeping the pamphlet after all this time told me he's not going to let his guilt go any time soon. And if Danny had truly been upset at Rikki moving away because he believes that's his fault too, it's another blow of guilt to be added to his guilt over Ruben dying in his care.

:lol: True, true. I guess this is one of those situations where we will always agree to disagree. And yes! Debates are interesting especially when there are different opinions. It'd be so boring if there weren't!

Yeah, I thought about this and I agree. It does make me wonder just how much influence Rikki's leaving will have on Danny's personal decisions in the near future. Of course, knowing TPTB, it'll be like Louie, gone into the Black Hole of What the Hell is Continuity and Logic. :lol:

P.S. Oh yeah. I do have a theory on why Danny was reluctant to let Rikki into his apartment. If the scene in 4x16 was anything to go by, and the fact Danny only told her the 'thing between them was not a good thing then, Rikki being in his apartment may have been quite difficult for him to resist. :devil: She was the one who insisted it was just sex. He was the one who insisted on her staying even when she wanted to leave. :devil: That alone speaks volumes.

 

I prefer this theory.

Even so, I hate that Danny/Carmine was made to look inconsistent in the process. Why was the decision not made sooner? *sigh*