This topic came up in another thread, and I thought it spark a good, respectful discussion. So, I ask the question- Who's more damaged? Or are both of them equally messed up? Edit: Now that there's a few votes up... I voted for Danny. This is a man that (throughout the course of the show already) has been through hell and back. And while I'm not denying that Lindsay has had her hardships (because no one makes it through without some) and has been traumatized herself, I think Danny's had more.
I voted that they are equally damaged. With emotional damage it's not just counting the number of hardships that a person has to endure throughout his or her lifetime, but you also have to take into account when these things happen and how they affect that person. Lindsay losing (all of) her teenage friends at an age when you are already struggling with a lot of life's issues seems to still be affecting her just as much as all the things that happened to Danny as an adult. In Lindsay case it was just one major blow that she took when in Danny's case it was a cummulation of different events, but imo the influence on their current mental situation is the same.
I think Danny is far, far more damaged than Lindsay is. I think Lindsay experienced something terrible when she was a teenager that likely made her fearful and certainly gutted her on an emotional level, but the fact that she chose to become a CSI shows me that she has made major strides and has worked to overcome her demons. In large part, she really has overcome those demons. She works a tough job and deals with death on a daily basis. She's fairly confident about her work. She likes her job. I don't think Lindsay's character flaws come from "damage." Losing her friends at age 14 didn't make her selfish or bad with dealing with other people's emotions. By the time you reach age 14, those characteristics have long since been formed. Danny, on the other hand, makes choices that are really, really bad for him on a consistent basis. I've long thought he was abused at some point as a young child; I think the bad decisions he makes as an adult are related to some fundamental things about his personality. I'll run down some of Danny's bad choices that suggest there's something wrong/damaged there: --The way he defied Mac in season one, almost to incite Mac's wrath purposefully. Danny insisted on trusting the brother in the case in "A Man a Mile" after being told to be cautious and look at the evidence alone. In "Crime and Misdemeanor," Danny pursued a case after specifically being told not to. In "On the Job," Danny went to IAB after being told not to. All three instances, it was Mac trying to guide him and Danny defying Mac. It definitely seems like Danny has Daddy Issues. --The way he reacts when being yelled at. In both C&M and OtJ, Danny just shut down while being scolded. He seemed to recoil from Mac's anger in C&M and he was basically shut down when Mac chewed him out in OtJ --He had a little meltdown in "The Dove Commission" over being beaten as a child by a gypsy cab driver. (Incidentally, I thought Danny was a huge brat to the dead guy's kid in this episode, and I didn't really let him off the hook because of the incident in his childhood) --Danny only started to pursue Lindsay after she expressed interest in him in s. 2, which seems to be his MO. The girl in "Risk" on the train had to stare and stare at him before he'd come over to talk to her. Rikki obviously made the first move on him, too, based on what she said in 416. This kind of is a turn around of the classic "male as the pursuer" role. Danny very clearly is the pursued in his relationships. --At the same time, once he's hooked, he'll hold on, no matter how damaging. Lindsay pushed him away all through season three, and he continued to support her (even Carmine referred to Danny as a "punching bag" during that phase). Danny also persuaded Rikki to stay in 416 when it seemed like she was going to walk away. Danny doesn't like to be abandoned. --Danny seems to like to provoke people. He goaded the guys in "Snow Day" into beating him pretty badly with the crack he made after he provided the distraction and Adam got the solution he needed. Similarly, when it was clear Lindsay was pissy with him, he provoked her into telling him why. --Danny lost interest in Lindsay when she was lovey-dovey and flirty, but the minute she started to treat him like crap and shut him out, he was interested again. It seems pretty clear that Danny has pretty low self-esteem, has abandonment issues and Daddy Issues. What those stem from we don't know, but his behavior indicates they're there. Interesting topic!
I voted that they are both just as damaged. However, I think that they're damaged in different ways and it manifests itself differently. In a very real way, they're both very juvenile and adolescent. For Danny, I think that stems from his low self esteem and what happened with his brother Louie. He expects the worst from people and thinks he should be treated like garbage. He definitely has abandonment issues that stem from the incident with Louie, possibly more abuse/neglect in his childhood that we don't yet know about. He shuts people out and is self destructive. He makes the worst choices imaginable. He has a problem with authority/father figures, probably stemming from his own father and the incident with Louie. Like Top pointed out so eloquently in her post above, all of the times when he deliberately defied Mac in Season 1. Also, there's the incident with Ollie, Rikki and the stolen gun. He trusted Flack, but definitely was shutting him out. Flack had to barrel his way in, and actually get VERY stern with him. All he got was a "You should have minded your own business" for his pains. Then, the way he is with women, as Top also pointed out beautifully. He likes to be pursued, and then when he relents, he latches on and doesn't let go, unless he's treated well. Note that when Lindsay was being nice to him, he was cold and distant. When she got bitchy with him, he tried again. Could this hint at more abuse? I think so, and I'd like to see that explored more. Overall, the way he acts, it's like a teenager. He's at the same time very much defiant and shutting out, but not wanting to be abandoned. He's also very provocative and petulant. When he has an issue about something, he can get nasty, like with the cab driver's son in "The Dove Commission." Although, he did have the decency to apologize, and the self awareness to tell Aiden that he had "Issues with Gypsy cab drivers." Lindsay, on the other hand, presents as being very needy, demanding and selfish. I think that this stems from the deaths of her friends when she was a teenager. It's like in a way, she's never moved on from what happened. She's put up a great front, but....in reality is very fragile and has a hard time dealing. I don't think she quite knows how to handle things, so when things get rough, she melts down or turns it back on the person. Note that she wants everything on HER terms. I think that stems from being catered to quite a bit after the murders. She comes across like a needy, demanding teenage girl to me, like she's stuck in that stage of development. Note that in "Manhattan Manhunt" we see the first chink in her armor, where she gets upset that Mac sends her back to the lab. Then, in "All Access" she has a meltdown over Stella's situation. Season 3, all of it was an Emo-fest. She agreed to the date with Danny, then stands him up. When he tries to talk about it, she shuts him down. There was her meltdown in "Silent Night," too. Then, how adamant she was about going undercover in "Love Run Cold." That was just a bit odd to me. Then, the whole, "I don't deal well with Mothers" thing.....It reminded me of a teenage girl who's struggling with things, who'll wig out for no apparent reason. All of it. Then, there was the part in "The Lying Game." To leave someone with just a card, not talking to them in person, or even leaving a phone message, that's just rather juvenile, IMO. Another thing a teenage girl would do. Season 4, started out fine, but then when Danny starts shutting her out, and not coming to her on HER terms, she flips out, culminating in her Monologue of Doom. Then, there was the scene where Mac asks her to catch Danny up on what's going on, and she just slams the case file or clipboard or whatever it was into his hands and storms off. There was also the "this is hard" scene, the phone call in "Personal Foul," and the several times that Danny tried to talk to her about it and she shot him down. It all strikes me as being very juvenile, not something a woman in her late 20's/early 30's would do. The same thing with Danny and Lindsay's relationship. The way I've always seen their relationship is as follows: It's like a three day teenage love affair, culminating with a gropefest in the back seat. They have their fun back there, but the day after, they go to school with marks all over each other's necks and whatnot, and have horrid things to say to their friends, and it's nasty awkward for a day or two, with emo tearz and stony silences in math class, but then it's over, and no one knows what the fuss was all about. They never talked to each other about what was going on between them. Any time Danny tried to discuss it, he got shot down, or told how hard he was to love. They never even talked after the events of "Snow Day." When Lindsay sprang her Monologue on him, using the word "Girlfriend" and saying she'd fallen in love with him, he looked so genuinely confused, Like he had no idea whatsoever. Is Danny innocent. Hell NO. I won't say he cheated, or that he was poor Mr. Patient, because yeah, he chose to go there with Lindsay in "Snow Day", for whatever reason. He did shut Lindsay out after Ruben was killed. Even though she never tried to reach out to him, she did cover for him, (No matter that she looked put out doing it) and she did alert Flack to what was going on, which did put all three of their jobs on the line. Contrast that with Danny's night with Rikki, and subsequent interactions. They were discussing it at every single turn. They talked about how unhealthy it was in the longrun to sleep together for comfort. It seems as though they were taking care to not hurt each other any more than they were already hurt by Ruben's death. They were open and honest with each other from the get go. Also, note that at no point, did Danny say that he was involved with someone, Not even when Rikki said she was leaving. Also, take note that when Rikki told Danny she was moving, they both looked devastated. That's why I like Lindsay as Danny's friend better than his lover/girlfriend or whatever. I think on a basic level they're very much the same, and it makes for a very dysfunctional, codependent relationship. BTW, all of the above is merely my opinion, and I hold no unwaverable convictions as to whether I'm right or not. I welcome the debate it will bring. If you have a contrary viewpoint, I'd love to hear it.
I personally think that Danny is worse off. And I'm sorry if what I say make me sound like cold hearted cow . Most of what I was thinking was already said so I'll just add to that. Okay yes, Lindsay lost her friends in a horrible way, and no one should have to go through that. Yes, I'm sure it has damaged her to some extent. But let's be honest, it's been like 10 years. And I know it's not something that she'll ever forget. But at this stage I feel like she would have over come it somewhat and have done at least healing. Whereas Danny on the other hand has had stuff happen to him more recently. And not only that but every time something bad happens to him and it looks like he's finally dusted himself and gotten back up on his feet something new knocks him over again. As far as his wounds go, they're still fresh due to the fact that salt keeps getting rubbed in them. Boy can't get a break.
i reakon Danny cause what happened to lindsay happened ages ago and she has taught herself to pretend to be ok but really not whereas Danny never really came across of the type who would be able to pull that off, he seems to do stupid things when hes upset not go straight into work or something
it is an interesting question but the answer depends on the way you understand the word demaged. if it should mean hurt, then its Danny hands down. he is continuosly showered with heartache. I wonder whether he already reached his breaking point or they have something more brutal in store for him yet (and I sincerely hope they dont). when it means how what happened to them affected who they are today then it is a tie. I think Lindsay has problems with opening up. she built so many walls to protect her frm the pain that its really hard now to broke through them. and when something does and she is proven wrong in her choice she builds even more of them (her recluctance to talk to Danny). I think thats what was called imature in some previous posts. I see it as more of a self-preservation mechanism gone too far. I agree that Danny thends to self-destruction under pressure but to me he usually comes of as selfish when in such state. he concentrates so hard on his own pain that the world around him stops to matter - the shooting, Lady V stealing his gun or RND. OT: I still dont get how you can say that Danny started to pursue Lindsay after she showed interest in him. to me they were always the classic case of pulling pigtails. he was trying to get her attention - and boy was he trying hard. IMHO he likes to be the hunter but deep down is somewhat of a romantic
Probably Danny. Obviously Lindsay experienced something very terrible but she had to over come some of that to get where she was. Same can probably be said for Danny but he seems to create more problems for himself by some of the bad choices he's made. That man has some bad luck. Anymore bad luck and he's going to need some serious therapy.
Well, dang, what I wanted to say has already been said so eloquently. :lol: ^ This. ^ And this. Makes you really wonder just how spoiled/catered she might have been after the murders. It would explain her current behavior a lot. ^ As well as this. The thing is, she railed on him for not talking to her and when he attempted multiple times to do so, she turned him away every time and thus deliberately did to him what she believed he did to her. It was a conscious decision and a very hypocritical one at that. And yes, immature too. Only drama queen high school kids or people with that childish sort of mentality behave that way, not a professional CSI in her 30s! :wtf: Even if it's a self-preservation mechanism gone too far, it doesn't excuse Lindsay treating Danny the way she did, especially with what he was going through. Saying that it's fine for her to do what she did because she's just protecting herself is like saying it's okay for someone who's been abused to be abusive to other people too solely because of their past traumatic experience. Moreover, she could have chosen to just tell Danny it's difficult of her to open up but instead, she went and did to him exactly what she accused him of doing to her and made him feel crappier than he already did merely because he didn't do what she expected him to. Nice. If all he concentrated on was his own pain and the entire world stopped mattering to him ... why did he even bother to go look for Rikki first rather than report his gun stolen? Why did he bother standing between her and Ollie and take the time to talk to her and calm her down? Why was he so determined to make sure Rikki was alright? And why was it so important for him that Rikki's pain was eased? Because hey, someone else mattered to him more than himself! (By the way, nicknames don't say anything much about the characters but they do say something about the people giving those characters the nicknames. Just sayin'.)
i voted for danny. he is way damaged. the whole reuben thing. he dissed off flack, cheated on lindsay and grieved all on his own. when people reach out to him he shuts them off. like lindsay for example. then when lindsay shuts him off, he then reaches out to her, only to get rejection. well.. kinda. lol. as for lindsay, she's kinda damanged. but she is cuz danny's damaged.
I said Danny as he has been through quite a lot not just through the course of the show. Lindsay is damaged but only because she saw her friends die. Danny's brother was in a coma because of him, he feels. I dunno any more reasons but that's what I think! lol! ________________________________ "The thrill is in the chase, never in the capture."
I think for me it comes down to how the characters are on a regular basis. Lindsay had something of a meltdown in season three, but that was because she had to revisit the past directly with the Katums trial. Otherwise, she functions fine. Her issues don't interfere with her work (save for that season). As for her relationship--or not--with Danny, we know so little about it, even whether it was or wasn't an actual relationship, but from the little we know she seemed okay until she realized he wasn't that into her. Danny, on the other hand, has been shown as being too emotional from the get-go; he gets too involved in cases and trusts the wrong people over and over again. Things that other people can handle and compartmentalize, Danny can't. The gypsy cab driver, the man who killed his brother with ricin in the Coney island ep, Mac's trial--these things got to Danny in a way they didn't with other characters. Not because the other characters don't care, but because they're able to put things aside and move on. Other characters have had eps here and there where things have gotten to them because they remind them of their own situations, but no one as consistently or as many times as Danny. He did the same thing to Aiden and to some extent Stella; was he interested in them, too? It was only after Lindsay started to ask him out for after work stuff that he seemed to express romantic interest in her, and even then, not right away.
I answered that they're both equally damaged, but I don't know to tell you the truth. I think that's because we know so little about Lindsay. But, we see Danny's damage in virtually everything he does, how he interacts, the cases that get to him. I think he is a character who feels things deeply, particularly guilt and he will do anything to make amends if he feels responsible for something. Lindsay on the other hand, closes off from people. She shuts down and becomes withdrawn. It could just be because of the deaths of her friends and whatever the fallout was to do with that, or it could be something else. To a certain extent I agree with Top41 that her personality would have been developed by the time the murders happened and that she was likely already somewhat withdrawn and stuggling to interact with people. In fact, I thought the brief scene with her friends in the diner actually showed that. She looked a little awkward and uncomfortable. It makes me wonder what her home life was actually like, but we just don't know. Her character is so underdeveloped away from Danny that there are a lot more questions than answers at the moment. But, I do think her actions now are affected by her past, and whereas Danny tends to turn to people (not always in a healthy way tho) she tends to shut herself off. That to me says she is damaged in a way that we probably can't even appreciate at this point. I'm hoping they will resolve that this season, and give us a little more insight.
she was a part of the reason he was in pain (and guilt). he completly disregarded everything else. it might have been seen as a knight-in-the-shinning-armour thing of him but in reality he just put a lot of people in a very difficult position. he didnt even care enough to call to work with some lame excuse. he is very impuslive and emotion ridden so when in pain or under pressure he tends to short circuit reaction (I know there is a better word for but it my English just aint that good) and those usually cause more demage then good (as for the nickname. I am ignoring her with all my might and this is one of the ways to do so. and since we dont really know each other its not really a nice thing to say - or assume. and I dont understand why I end up defending myself everytime Im on this thread ) I agree with JellyBelly that we dont know enough of Lindsay still (which is a shame) to really understand some of her reactions. or most of them she asked him to the club to prove a point and it was him who was glowing like a 1000 w bulb with the prospect of a date. it was him who bring the not-so-delicious dinner to lab and made the bet, it was him who wanted a dinner after she offered drinks, it was him who proposed and theid to coax her into yet another meal. where exactly did she expresed that interest?