Who's More Damaged- Danny or Lindsay?

It was him blaming himself for Ruben's death that's the reason for his pain and guilt. To him, helping to ease her pain made him feel better. So yeah, she's associated with it, but she isn't the reason. He didn't completely disregard everything either; it was only in episode 4x13 that he didn't turn up for work because he was so worried for Rikki and stopping her from doing something that would ruin her life, to the point he was willing to jeapordize his job and career.

As for putting people into difficult positions, Lindsay voluntarily chose to lie to Mac. Danny never forced her to do it. Flack voluntarily searched for Danny and even helped him look for Rikki but made sure that Danny did the right thing too. Danny never forced him to do that either. So to say Danny put people into difficult positions is inaccurate.

And as for him not calling in, if someone you cared deeply about was possibly going to do something that'll destroy her future and you knew you had to find her before it was too late, the last thing you'd think about is yourself. So, not surprising he didn't call or pick up any calls. Like Danny said in the episode, "Would you think for a moment what she's going through here?"

she asked him to the club to prove a point and it was him who was glowing like a 1000 w bulb with the prospect of a date. it was him who bring the not-so-delicious dinner to lab and made the bet, it was him who wanted a dinner after she offered drinks, it was him who proposed and theid to coax her into yet another meal. where exactly did she expresed that interest?[/quote]Ironically, you just proved her point right. Your first example was what she was referring to, Lindsay asking him out after work. So all your following examples are then proof that Danny only seemed to express romantic interest some time later and not right away.

 

Understood. I apologize, it won't happen again.

 

Okay I guess I wil put my 10 pence worth in. I voted for both.

I fully understand everyones point of view, have you ever heard the saying that if you ask 100 people who witnessed a crime what they saw you would get 100 different stories as everyone sees things differently.

So I am just going to say what I think.

We all know what Dannys issues/problems/damage (whatever you wish to call it) are, there is no need for me to repeat. They are all very much on the surface and are shown on scene very well by Carmine.

With regards to Lindsay, all we know is she was the sole surviour of a crime. We have no way of knowing of what happened in the aftermath becuase it has not really been mentioned. To me she is has a lot of surviour guilt, from personal exprience I know that is not something that ever goes away and can make you behave in some very odd ways times. We have no way of knowing how the mothers of the 4 girls reacted to Lindsay following the shooting as I don't think it has ever been mentioned, nor was her relationship with her parents, I have always found it strange that they were not there in the court room (why was she not sitting with them during the verdict if they were there?). To me there are a lot of things left half done with her character and her past. Hopefully she will be more like the girl who arrived and in Season 2 (and by the sounds of the spoliers she will) and so maybe some of it will be made clear so we may understand her a little better.

 

What you said is very true, LME However, Lindsay having PTSD/survivor's guilt issues doesn't give her a pass, any more than all of Danny's damage gives him a pass.

I'm not sure about the Cheating aspect, because their relationship was not defined at all, as Carmine and Anna both said, so I'm not going there on that one. However, Danny was being an uber brat in "AitF," Just as in several episodes Lindsay was being awful towards him on several levels.

I see so many people giving one or the other a pass, I'm not quite sure why? Is it because we identify with one more than the other, is it because we feel more sympathy towards one or is it another reason?

I see Danny as a bit more Sympathetic for some reason than I do Lindsay. Maybe it's because he tries so hard to see the good in people and is in a very real way quite naive, but I do sympathize with Danny. That doesn't preclude him from being a brat. Note that in "Crimes and Misdemeanors" and "On the Job" in season 1 he openly defied Mac. Then, in "AitF" he was so bratty that Flack even was close to losing his temper with him, and called him out on it. Honestly, if Flack hadn't called him on it, and reported Rikki, I don't think Danny would have brought her in.

Lindsay, she seems to want things her way and run from her feelings. It doesn't seem as though she can deal with people on an emotional level. Note that all of her interactions in Season 2 were very light and fluffy. Nothing was weighty with her until the situation with Stella in "All Access," and she melted down.

Then, Season 3, with the PTSD, she couldn't handle things. She avoided dealing with the mother in "Oedipus Hex," ran from the crime scene in "Silent Night" and couldn't face saying goodbye to Danny in person in "The Lying Game" She also wouldn't tell Stella what was wrong with her, giving her a "Mind your own Business" in "SL" earning her a stern reprimand.

Season 4, when Danny was having issues dealing with the Ruben stuff, I think that she Couldn't reach out to Danny about it. She just didn't know how. She expected him to come to her. Then, with the after events and Danny isolating himself from her, she didn't know how to deal, hence the Monologue of Doom. That all presents as immature and self absorbed. Then, there's the "This is Hard" and her slaming the info into Danny's hands and running, because it she couldn't deal with it or accept it.

She did cover for him, no matter how put out she looked, and she did alert Flack to what was happening, and ran tests on the memorial card, which did save Danny's bacon, but didn't require any emotional effort.

It doesn't make her a saint by any means, but it shows where she's coming from. I don't necessarily see her as that sympathetic, but maybe others do.

She can't deal with Danny on an emotional level (or Stella or anyone else for that matter) and Danny is all emotions. He's simply pure, raw emotion, and (misguided) gut instinct.

 

You made some very good points Shytownmofo. I also don't think that either of them should be given a free pass - personal I think they could both benefit from some form of therapy or counseling.

 

Supermen

that is true but to be honest I cant really imagine her asking Mac to carry her over the roof. can you? I mean he is her boss and all that jazz. and Danny still could have declined saying he has a lot of work on his own. Im not saying she wasnt interested (I havent seen any of it on her part till Stealing Home myself) but to me it was always him doing the chasing while she simply smiled at all his advances. I think this is too much up to interpretation. I dont see what you do in their interaction and I obviously cant get my point across clearly. damn language barrier. (but I would probably suck in arguing it in Slovak too)

they definitely handle emotional overload in totally different way. she shuts down all of it and deteches herself (which is not the healthiest way but given what happened to her is kind of logical. it clearly helped back then and she probably havent figured out yet that it simply doesnt work as universal cure). he goes with the emotional flow. thats probably why they werent really able to help each other in times of distress

I think a lot of it is sympathy for the character and the feeling we understand where one (or both) of them is coming from. I didnt really like Danny until S3 so I could care less for why he was acting the way he was. Lindsay I liked from the begining.

 

For me it was obvious that they were clearly interested in each other and both did their share of flirting/chasing. I've seen a lot of people commenting that Danny was never really interested in her romantically but that's just not true. He was intrigued by her very early on and also went out of his way at times to be with her. I don't see that he only became interested when she did at all. Take City of Dolls, he clearly wanted to eat with her but as soon as she said no he backed down awkwardly, implying that it was a rhetorical question and he didn't really want to eat either. I can't see Danny being awkward like that if he wasn't interested as more than friends. Just my take on the who was chasing who debate.

Despite the fact that I like and feel sympathy for Lindsay I do agree with some of the comments about her bahaviour. Likewise, I agree with some of the not so good comments about Danny. They both set up their relationship and they both have to take responsibility for how it has turned out. Yes, Lindsay appears to be more interested in how things affect her but I think that's a symptom not only of her past but also of how Danny interacts with her.

He always made it about her as well so it's not surprising that she feels so hurt by his behaviour in S4 and that she can't see beyond that to how it's affecting Danny. I also don't think she fully grasps where he's at, partly because he hasn't let her (or anyone else for that matter). People talk about him having turned to Mac, Flack and even Angell, but not Lindsay. I don't see it that way, I don't think he's really turned to any of them. He's had snippets of conversations where the one interaction that came from him was with Mac re. not wanting to go to the scene with kids, with Angell he just responded to her comment and with Flack he was forced into an interaction because Flack was chasing him chasing Rikki who was chasing Ollie Barnes.

The way I see it is that he's pretty much shut off from those closest to him and I think he's done that so he could immerse himself in helping/being helped by Rikki. He couldn't let anyone else into that, irrespective of whatever was or wasn't going on with Lindsay, anyone else would have called him on it as it not being a good thing. He's dealing with it well enough to be able to continue working, he hasn't really taken any time off and to the other's probably seems to be dealing perfectly well. It will be interesting to see how that changes with him not having Rikki around anymore. If he can no longer ease his pain with her then what's he going to do?

As for Lindsay, I'd like to see some sort of acknowledgement from her beyond the 'I'm not good at this', something that shows a level of insight into why she's not good at it. Not just that, but an effort of some sorts to get better at it. Her whole avoidance of human interaction when something's painful or difficult is interesting. Yes, she was able to get things off her chest with Danny but then she couldn't deal (apparently) with the follow up to that. I like the idea of a heated discussion between the two of them where Danny calls her on some of her bahaviour. I don't see Lindsay as the manipulator that some people do, so I think him calling her on that will actually help her to see things a little more clearly, and to also move on. It's interesting that after her outburst with Stella in Silent Night when Stella went from sympathetic friend to tough boss and didn't let her get away with her behaviour, it seemed as though her relationship with Stella improved and they became somewhat friends. Lindsay knew that she shouldn't have reacted as she did and all it took was Stella calling her on it to change that behaviour.

While I'm at it, I'd also like to see Flack calling Danny on his behaviour at some point because I really think Danny does to Flack what Lindsay does to Danny on some level.

 

Someone said earlier (can't remember who) that we haven't really seen much of Lindsay's background on the show. Which is true, because all we really know is she's from Montana, has an uncle in NYC, and that she suffered the trauma she did when she was younger.

And I'm not going to say that's not bad. Having lost 2 friends suddenly myself within a matter of four days last year, I understand how that can mess you up. I wasn't in her situation, hers being the only survivor of a multiple homicide, but I'm still trying to deal with it a year later (they both died in accidents).

Yeah, she's moved on. But let's look at Season 3, when the guy went on trial and she knew she'd have to go back to Montana. It affected her, made her emotional again, recalling all the details. Stress'll do that to you, and that's where she was at the time.

Having said all that, I don't think she has PTSD. If she did, other scenes would've affected her when they didn't. I think her getting emotional again was that the wounds she had closed were now reopened with the upcoming trial. Things she had got past were coming back into the forefront, putting her right back where she had been after the incident. If she has PTSD from that, then Mac has PTSD too (think Charge of This Post).

And yes, she was young, and that does have an affect on things. But she's managed to make her life work, and I think that's something. She functions rather well, and doesn't often let cases bother her.

Why do I defend her as such? Let's look at what we know about Danny.

He grew up in a family under surveillance, where his brother ended up in a gang. He was beat up when he was 10 by a gypsy cab driver (along with his father). He didn't have the best relationship with his brother, especially after the night in '91.

When trying to keep Danny out of jail, Louie was beaten into a coma, which Danny felt guilty for. After all, if it wasn't for his cigarette in the grave, Louie wouldn't have done what he did. And, I don't really think Mac helped by telling Danny that the only reason he was still out of jail was Louie (because Danny felt guilty about Louie being in the hospital).

Then, a little while later, Aiden was murdered, which obviously hurt Danny deeply. He was really close to her. Then, shortly after that, Flack almost died in an explosion. All three of these things (Louie, Aiden, and Flack) came pretty much back to back.

Then there was Snow Day, Ruben's death, and everything else that has happened this season. I think all of these affected Danny really deeply.

Now, to go more into his psyche...

He does (as previously stated) tend to incite others to hurt him. He seems to always will people into doing so. And I think that stems from the feelings that he's not worth anything more than that. How he got there, though, has never been shown (though I think Louie always treating him like crap probably helped out with that).

He doesn't like to be vulnerable, and doesn't like to let people comfort him. Think Run Silent, Run Deep, when him and Mac were on the street. He was hesitant to talk to Mac at all (shown by him turning the other way when Mac walked up), and he stood against the wall, hands in his pockets, not really talking. Mac asked if he was okay, and he didn't really answer, just restated the situation. And when he started crying, and Mac hugged him, he kept his hands in his pockets, and didn't really accept the hug.

I think that scene speaks not only to his relationship with Mac (where he feels like Mac is someone above him, etc.) but also to his not wanting to be vulnerable or comforted by others.

He doesn't trust others enough necessarily to open up in front of them, but he does feel they should trust him and open up to him. Remember Heart of Glass for a moment, when he was hurt to find out he was the last to know about Mac and Peyton. All of Season 3, he wanted Lindsay to open up to him and let him help her.

He has a savior complex. Not in the sense that he always wants to be a hero and wants to save everyone physically, but more in an emotional sense. He hates when the people around him are hurting, and he tries everything (sometimes, at the extent of himself) to make them feel better.

For example- Snow Day. When him and Adam were held hostage, Danny was trying to comfort Adam and identify with him ("I know you're scared, but so am I"). He also called Adam "buddy" and tried to help him through the situation.

Example #2- the relationship with Rikki. Both of them had just lost Ruben, but Danny was more insistent on making her feel better than himself. He comforted her in any way he thought, and didn't care about himself as much.

I think these point to Danny's need to put everyone above himself. He'd rather make everyone in the world around him feel better than himself. And he more than likely deals with himself when no one else is around.

So, to that extent, Danny is more damaged than Lindsay. Lindsay can be open (to some extent) and reach out to people when she needs help, but Danny can't. Danny gets too over emotional, tries to incite people against him, and doesn't trust anyone completely. Lindsay functions relatively normally and on an even keel.

 

Thanks, Top41.

And, I agree. I really think there needs to be a balance between Flack and Danny. I also think of the scene in "...Comes Around," where they're in the bar. Flack comes in with the banter ("'Can you please read the highlighted text?' 'Yes.' Classic.") and Danny's too much in his mood to really play along. Instead, he turns it into "Why do we do what we do?" and Flack kinda comforts him.

Yet, we don't really see a turn around (then again, Flack has significantly less drama going on then Danny). I thnk Danny sees Flack as his friend that can pick him up out of the gutter, but we haven't seen any evidence that the opposite is also true.

Spoiler: further thoughts regarding next season

Which makes me interested to see this next season, with Flack's sister getting into trouble. Will Danny return the favor, despite his own stuff?

 

Actually, there is evidence of that. It's in episode 4x20, after Flack nearly got run over by the Cab Killer and Flack failed to catch the guy. After getting reamed by Mac over details of the cab, Flack immediately went to see Danny and opened up about his frustration at himself for not being able to get the bad guy.

And to Danny's credit, he did comfort Flack, by telling the guy all the other cops in Manhattan are already searching for the guy and that the killer's cab's ... 'oil pan' (I can't recall at the moment exactly what Danny called it) was cracked. He didn't say it outright like, "Don't blame yourself for it," but he was definitely heavily implying it to Flack. If Flack believed Danny was someone who wasn't capable of being a friend who can pick him out of the gutter, so to speak, I don't think he would have gone to Danny at all. But he did; Danny was the very first person he went to, in fact.

Spoiler: Spoiler for episode 5x01

Heheheh, if the final episode follows the spoilers, there's a big chance Danny will be talking with Flack's sister. If that happens, and Flack's sister is in major trouble in the episode, I can see Danny talking to Flack about things.

 

^^ I stand corrected. Thank you.

But, it doesn't really happen that often.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. The example I quoted is the only one for the entire show so far. I think it has a lot to do with Danny being a central figure in many major storylines that have happened. Logical Danny would be the one being given support since he's the one who's usually in the dumps. If Flack had more development/plots/drama going his way, then perhaps we will see more of Danny reciprocating support. Then again, I find it rather difficult to see Flack ever losing it like Danny has. :lol: Even if loads of drama goes Flack's way, it would probably take a great deal to snap a tough, reliable guy like Flack.

 

I would say that they are equally damaged by the traumatic events in their life.