Who's More Damaged- Danny or Lindsay?

[roximonoxide]

Awesome discussion!

I voted for Danny for a lot of the issues people have outlined so far, particularly because Danny's screw ups seem to be ingrained in his personality. He has a hard time seeing them as screw up before, eve while, he's screwing up, when to everyone else, audience and other characters a like are sitting backing thing what in the NAME of God is he doing?!?!

No one brings Danny more pain than Danny and that's just being self destructive right there. He's always been his own worst enemy and provoking his captives in Snow Day, is probably the clearest example.

Top, you mentioned Danny's 'Daddy issues' and drew most of the same conclusions you did, though I'm not quite certain I'd classify it as a paternal issue so much as a major problem in his trust with authority figures. Particularly with OtJ he was told, as you said, to stay away from IAB until Mac got a chance to work out the scene properly. Meanwhile Danny's panicking so violently about being sold down the river that he's run to Don for any inside info and stormed out of that when he wasn't given anything new. Danny ran right to IAB to tell his side of the story as if he was alone in it and his word was all he had, when neither Mac, Don or anyone had any intention of giving him up for what happened. All that together only makes me think, what authority figure in Danny's life ( and I suppose it could have been his father ) Gave him up for something? Or let him take the fall? Or abandoned him in some way, so much that he felt his colleagues had no intention of standing up for him at work?

I won't go on reiterating too many other points that I've agreed with so far, but I think that ultimately my decision falling with Danny has a lot to do with some of his smaller moments in the show thus far. Lines that often, for little more than the way they were delivered, left a startling impression on me. Take for example one of the most over looked scenes IMO that spoke volumes about Danny Messer: In Recycling, when the investigation leads Danny and Stella to a known child molester, whom when they locate him, he's idling in a cafe around unmonitored children no less, playing with sugar on a cafe table top. While both Danny and Stella are obviously disgusted with this individual the way Danny responds to him is so much more disturbed. He even makes the confrontation strangely personal with this vicious remark: "What am I too old for you?" There's something deeply disturbing to me about that line and the way Danny says it.

 

[miss_blue]

OK. I am writing this before reading the thread, I just decided to post without reading just because I wanted to state my opinions without any influence.

My vote goes to Danny by far. I think that Lindsay is not troubled or has issues, I think she is just being a spoiled 30-year old which does not mean that she had issues. Of course, she went through that tragedy when she was younger, but she went over it. How? First of all the line she had in Manhattan Manhunt about seeing worse crime scenes, and the way she reacted after her trial, which forces me to deviate a bit. Alright. Before the trial of the killer in Sleight out of Hand, she was affected by things around her that were baring some kind of remembrance to her past. After the trial everything was forgot. This only leads me to one conclusion: it wasn't her friends' death that upset her so much, but the fact that the criminal was still free. After he went to jail she just went to normal and erased everything.

Back to the topic in hand, I believe that Danny has showed since the beginning of the show that he has some issues. He has a definite problem against authority, and I am thinking about the times when Mac was trying to guide him, and he just did whatever the hell he wanted, and somehow he ended up learning from those.

He is a person that gets attached immediately to someone, and makes friends in a second, but for the best friend he has at the moment he hasn't been there fully and it makes me think that he takes certain things for granted. He was there for Hawkes and bent the rules for him (Raising Shane) and risked his life to save him (The Deep).

Lindsay made a total joke out of him in the past seasons, but he always was there for her, and supported her through what she was going at that point.

Danny knows that he has a permanent support in Flack and the fact the he is just not there so often for him is not intentionally, he just can't prioritize, meaning that he gives back but to the others.

We all said it before he is an attention princess. He needs to be in the spotlight, and that makes me think that as a kid he has been ignored by his parents, and his own brother, as he said in Run Silent Run Deep.

Danny although he is a good CSI and detective he is just trusting people too much. It didn't happen only once when he pointed the good guy and turning up too be the bad guy. I think it shows that dee down someone in his past disappointed him greatly, and he still keeps hope in humanity.

 

[Top41]

No one brings Danny more pain than Danny and that's just being self destructive right there. He's always been his own worst enemy and provoking his captives in Snow Day, is probably the clearest example.

That's a good example. He was basically egging the guys on, inviting them to kick the shit out of him, which of course they did. It's weird, but I almost think doing that made Danny feel like he had some control over the situation, which makes me think in some way it may have been a familiar one to him. Again, that leads back to questions about childhood.

I also noticed the long look he took when Adam mentioned his dad was a bully in "Some Buried Bones." Like Danny knew exactly what he was talking about but would never say it out loud in the way Adam did.

I won't go on reiterating too many other points that I've agreed with so far, but I think that ultimately my decision falling with Danny has a lot to do with some of his smaller moments in the show thus far. Lines that often, for little more than the way they were delivered, left a startling impression on me. Take for example one of the most over looked scenes IMO that spoke volumes about Danny Messer: In Recycling, when the investigation leads Danny and Stella to a known child molester, whom when they locate him, he's idling in a cafe around unmonitored children no less, playing with sugar on a cafe table top. While both Danny and Stella are obviously disgusted with this individual the way Danny responds to him is so much more disturbed. He even makes the confrontation strangely personal with this vicious remark: "What am I too old for you?" There's something deeply disturbing to me about that line and the way Danny says it.

That was disturbing to me, too. Danny was basically challenging the guy to look at him in a sexual manner. IIRC, the guy did look Danny over. Not typical behavior, either from a man or a cop.

My vote goes to Danny by far. I think that Lindsay is not troubled or has issues, I think she is just being a spoiled 30-year old which does not mean that she had issues. Of course, she went through that tragedy when she was younger, but she went over it. How? First of all the line she had in Manhattan Manhunt about seeing worse crime scenes, and the way she reacted after her trial, which forces me to deviate a bit. Alright. Before the trial of the killer in Sleight out of Hand, she was affected by things around her that were baring some kind of remembrance to her past. After the trial everything was forgot. This only leads me to one conclusion: it wasn't her friends' death that upset her so much, but the fact that the criminal was still free. After he went to jail she just went to normal and erased everything.

Agreed. Again, I think Lindsay had something terrible happen to her and I think it has haunted her, but I don't think it's defined her life or shaped who she is as a person. Lindsay's not anti-social, she doesn't avoid people or hold them at arm's length. She told Mac and Stella what was going on with her, she's bantered with Danny and other characters before. I think she wanted to put her issues in order before moving forward with Danny and handled it badly, but that's not the same thing as damage.

He is a person that gets attached immediately to someone, and makes friends in a second, but for the best friend he has at the moment he hasn't been there fully and it makes me think that he takes certain things for granted. He was there for Hawkes and bent the rules for him (Raising Shane) and risked his life to save him (The Deep).

Lindsay made a total joke out of him in the past seasons, but he always was there for her, and supported her through what she was going at that point.

Danny knows that he has a permanent support in Flack and the fact the he is just not there so often for him is not intentionally, he just can't prioritize, meaning that he gives back but to the others.

It's funny--Danny does put himself in positions where he'll be taken for granted but then yeah, he turns around and does the same thing to Flack. He's been downright ungrateful to Flack at times, like in "On the Job" and "All in the Family." Flack puts up with a lot, but I think he gets how damaged Danny is.

We all said it before he is an attention princess. He needs to be in the spotlight, and that makes me think that as a kid he has been ignored by his parents, and his own brother, as he said in Run Silent Run Deep.

Yeah, Danny craves attention, but it's interesting that he likes negative attention as much if not more than positive, as evinced by his attempts to defy and rile Mac in s. 1 and his interest in Lindsay in season three, once she started pulling away from him.

 

[racefh853629]

^^ Do you think Flack puts up with it out of friendship caring, or out of understanding of his situation?

He takes a lot of Danny's crap, and seems very sturdy with himself and his own life. But much of his life is unknown. We know his father was a cop, that he has at least one brother (as mentioned in Some Buried Bones), but as for how he grew up, we know nothing.

Spoiler: Season 5 stuff

Given the spoilers, it sounds like he doesn't have the best relationship with his sister, especially since I read that he says something along the lines of "I'm sick of cleaning up your messes." Hopefully this will be a chance for Danny to reciprocate, but maybe not.

So, I wonder if he has some understanding (maybe not complete, but some) of Danny's situation and that's why he puts up with it. But, then again, he loyally stayed with Stella during All Access, so maybe he just does it because Danny's his friend, and that's what Flack does.


Top41, that's a good point about Adam and Danny in Some Buried Bones, and something I had never noticed before. It kind of is like Danny's not going to admit it, but he understands what Adam meant. Thanks for pointing that out!

Another thing that bugs me (well, I thought the quote was funny, but now it seems weird) was when Mac and Danny were talking in "Til Death Do We Part," where Mac says, "It could happen to you one day," and Danny replies, "What, marriage?" Mac says, "Love," and Danny says "Don't even joke about that, Mac. That's not even funny."

It almost sounds like Danny himself is admitting that he's not capable of that. Granted, yes, the scene was meant to be the two of them joking, so maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the dismissive tone Danny brings to the last line reads more like someone who thinks it'll never happen to them.

Which makes me think that Danny almost feels he's incapable of loving someone. I mean, he loves his friends, his family, those type of love. But a romantic love where you can fully be there for someone else- that seems to be something he thinks he's incapable of. Although, that could just be a reflection of his inability to form a healthy romantic relationship.

Because, let's face it- Danny and Lindsay did not have a healthy, romantic relationship.

The first relationship you ever form is with your family, and if you don't have a strong family relationship, it can be hard to overcome that and have healthy friendships and romantic relationships. And I think that's part of Danny's problem.

 

[Top41]

^^ Do you think Flack puts up with it out of friendship caring, or out of understanding of his situation?

I think one thing that's been established in the show is how deeply Flack cares for Danny. When he basically chased Danny all over town to keep him safe in "All in the Family" and Danny was such a brat and told him he should have minded his own business, Flack's response was, "You're my friend. Makes it my business." Flack's deep affection for Danny is irrefutable.

He takes a lot of Danny's crap, and seems very sturdy with himself and his own life. But much of his life is unknown. We know his father was a cop, that he has at least one brother (as mentioned in Some Buried Bones), but as for how he grew up, we know nothing.

I think Flack is a very stable, strong person, and he sees Danny is not. I think Danny's vulnerability brings out Flack's protectiveness. Flack likes to take care of people, to feel like he's the strong hero, and of all people, Danny sure makes him feel that way. So there's part of that, too.

Another thing that bugs me (well, I thought the quote was funny, but now it seems weird) was when Mac and Danny were talking in "Til Death Do We Part," where Mac says, "It could happen to you one day," and Danny replies, "What, marriage?" Mac says, "Love," and Danny says "Don't even joke about that, Mac. That's not even funny."

It almost sounds like Danny himself is admitting that he's not capable of that. Granted, yes, the scene was meant to be the two of them joking, so maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the dismissive tone Danny brings to the last line reads more like someone who thinks it'll never happen to them.

Which makes me think that Danny almost feels he's incapable of loving someone. I mean, he loves his friends, his family, those type of love. But a romantic love where you can fully be there for someone else- that seems to be something he thinks he's incapable of. Although, that could just be a reflection of his inability to form a healthy romantic relationship.

I mostly saw that line as just banter, and really not even banter in character with who we've seen Danny be from day one. Danny's always been the one to care too much, not too little.

From his behavior, I think Danny doesn't believe he's worthy of love. He only seems interested in Lindsay when she's treating him badly, and her line about him being "hard to love" made him smile because Danny absolutely seems to think of himself that way. Again, I think it more has to do his low self-esteem than anything else.
Because, let's face it- Danny and Lindsay did not have a healthy, romantic relationship.

 

[MakeTracksCowboy]

Danny seems to be the more damaged one but i voted for both of them being just as damaged as the other. their baggage and their pasts are different but they each have so many problems.

they're both a damaged part of the other's life that it's going to be hard for them to let each other go.

 

[calleighspeedle]

I think they have both had their troubles in the past but they have managed to come through it okay. So I voted for both of them