Grade 'Holding Cell'

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Top41, Jan 14, 2011.

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How would you grade Holding Cell?

  1. A+

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  2. A

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  3. A-

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  4. B+

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  5. B

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  6. B-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. C+

    3 vote(s)
    11.5%
  8. C

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. C-

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  10. D+

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  11. D

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    5 vote(s)
    19.2%
  1. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Based off your three contributions to this thread:

    it didn't seem like you were here to do anything but jump to latch on to someone's comment about Mac and Stella and take a swipe at Jo. Nothing in what you posted says you watched the episode, or want to contribute to the thread in any meaningful way.

    I don't care what pair you ship, but the topic is more suited to the SMACKED thread in Shipper Central unless it comes up in an episode. You're more than welcome to hate on Jo to your heart's content, but responding to someone's post complaining about Lindsay and essentially saying "Jo sucks, too!" isn't discussion.

    Why someone would stick around a forum simply to bitch and complain about a show they don't like anymore is beyond me, but so long as you're discussing the show and not just drive-by trolling, you're entitled.
     
  2. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    And if the advice came from Lindsay instead of Jo you dont think there would be negative comment coming from people who do not care for Lindsay? These are people yes, allbeit fictional ones, who come to life through the stroke of a pen , a pen in fact that did not have to write that little reminder to begin with, just like the constant reminder that the Messers are married.

    It was within this thread that the topic came to light and was in this thread in which I replied. Would you have me reply to a topic from this thread in another thread?:confused:

    Thankyou for analyizing my reason for comment. Actually they were subjects of interest to me and thus compelled me to respond.

    So how would you have me "prove it"? And what do you consider meaningful? Anything that you happen to agree with? For the record in all honesty I DID watch, and if you feel so compelled to ask me various questions in regards to the show I would be happy to oblige you..I am "smarter than a fifth grader" you know.:)

    I was agreeing with the poster about the Lindsay nonsense, and thought the same about "Jo"... correctamente esta bien de acuerdo.

    I do like looking at Flack!:devil:
    Gee Thanks.:)
     
  3. La_Guera

    La_Guera Lab Technician

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    Given that the ideals of 150 years ago included treating women like the chattel of their husbands and committing them to asylums for such crimes as thinking for themselves or declining sex with their husbands, I'm not sure claiming that Mac is a harbinger of those days and that particular moral set is the best argument for his inveterate rightness. The ideals of 150 years ago also included slavery, child labor, and the forced institutionalization and sterilization of disabled people. If Mac is really a champion of those ideals, then it's little wonder my veins begin to throb whenever he opens his mouth.
     
  4. Axatullux

    Axatullux Lab Technician

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    Lori K. you seriously need to either cut this nonsense out or redirect your posts to "Dislike a Ship" thread or some thread where they are more appropriate. Granted, I totally share a good percentage of what you're arguing about but at the same time, this "Grade Holding Cell" thread is NOT the place for your particular rants, whether it's about Jo or others. Please redirect it to the "Dislike a Ship" or "most unfavorite character" thread. This thread is about the episode "Holding Cell".

    La Guera, I'm totally on the same page as you. While I certainly understand the need to emotionally detach to a large degree, Mac here has become a self-righteous jerk to where I'm losing a great deal of respect for the character. Are they now flushing Mac down the toilet, just like they flushed Stella down the toilet two seasons earlier?

    Depression cannot be eliminated with medication although it helps. It is often much deeper than just chemical imbalances in the brain and can be traced to a lack of nourishing environments such as isolation, economic hardship, especially if prolonged, or from mental trauma. I could argue that depression is caused in part not just by winter (Seasonal Affective Disorder) but also by lack of a supportive environment.

    Mac's behavior seamingly brushes all of these factors aside and my respect for Taylor definately took some damage this time. While holding out, with this trajectory, Mac is on his way to becoming my least favorite character on this show, perhaps even falling to the levels of Horatio, who keeps me away from Miami every time it comes on.
     
  5. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    i wondered that too!

    as for the licking scene, yeah, i didn't find it offensive in itself but i found it totally unnecessary as it had no bearing at all on the plot. however i did find what may well have been the reasoning behind it offensive, ie that showing girl on girl action is titillating and that it is mainly for male fantasy - although of course i'm sure many lesbians share that fantasy, let's be honest here; when a mainstream tv network put that kind of thing on prime time tv they are hardly likely to be doing some kind of "let's target the lesbian market!" drive, and far more likely to be doing a "let's stick some gratuitous titillation on at the start and hope any channel hopping boys who catch it hang around" - THAT is offensive.

    well i'm with laguera on this. the 19th century is one of my pet subjects (as a historian) and although a lot of what came out of that period was very noble a lot of it was frankly backward and has no place in modern society. as has been pointed out rape (especially within marriage) and domestic violence were the norm (and sadly i don't see much change there these days), it was the norm to say anyone with any kind of mental illness was deficient and lock them up for life, and so on and so on, and god help you if you were unfortunate enough to be guilty of being poor because then you really were screwed from every angle.

    it depends what you see as degeneracy. frankly i don't think degeneracy really exists, it's just a response by a scared population with a vested interest in the status quo that fear change and wish they could stay in their bubble forever. as for "if you don't like it you don't have to do it" i think that's a perfectly reasonable response - after all if i'm doing something in a club or in bed with a woman that you feel is degenerate, it's not affecting you is it? if men want to have sex with or marry each other, how does it affect you? it doesn't. you don't have to have any part of it. i agree it's unnecessary at certain times on tv, but that's what the off switch is for.

    agreed! and for the record i don't feel mac is a proponent of those ideals at all, he seems to be pretty sold on justice and fairness (two things sorely lacking in the 19th century) and he's usually empathetic if not entirely clever about how he phrases things. i agree that sometimes he is far too black and white in his vision of the world and sometimes he says things that make me go "oh god, really?!!" but i think at heart he's a guy with integrity, a sense of fairness, and balance, and generally pretty decent. oh yeah, and hot ;)
     
  6. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    Gee Mike thanks I will keep that in mind!:thumbsup: I was commenting to a post from THIS thread which happened to be talking about Mac and Stella. I know where the dislike a ship thread is! But the subject did not pertain to that. :) And my "rant" in regards to Jo was about her ALSO having to speak Spanish along with Lindsay which is in reference to THIS episode. Funny how no one is complaining about my disike of Lindsay and her spanish lesson but people seem to be down my throat because I didnt care for Jo speaking it either.:rolleyes: So umm....nonsense?
     
  7. PerfectAnomaly

    PerfectAnomaly Resident Smart Ass

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    The quote button isn't working for me at this moment in time. But in response to Lori K.:

    I WASN'T "talking about Mac and Stella." I referenced the episode "Grounds for Deception" as an episode where Mac got in the way of an investigation because someone he knew was involved and that directly related to this episode because the vic's uncle asked if he'd stay involved in a case that involved someone he knew. Not even remotely the same thing.
     
  8. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    Time to put it to rest kids. This IS getting off topic even for me!:)
     
  9. PerfectAnomaly

    PerfectAnomaly Resident Smart Ass

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    That in no way is talking about Mac and Stella as a couple and that is what your response talked about. Shipping Mac and Stella have nothing to do with this episode.
     
  10. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    The implication in reason for his going was a difference of opinion. I didnt say YOU were talking about them as a couple, I was! And all of a sudden it became a nit picky friends or lovers quarrel:lol: I made a comment and it hit a nerve (seems easy to do) so what else is new. You brought up Mac going after Stella to Greece I just added my thoughts as to why he did it. Now again this has gone off topic, I am done.... time for me to watch Blue Bloods anyway.:)
     
  11. ruby&theheadmen

    ruby&theheadmen Lab Technician

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    I can say that the Mac that I see on the show, probably is horrified and repulsed, as well as sees the problems resulting from 'clubs' like the one depicted in this episode. People's choice of actions do and can cause problems for society as a whole- how many robberies, rapes and deaths by drunk drivers did people from that club cause? The episode wouldn't say-maybe it should have, but if people don't wish to see, they won't regardless. However, as to societies deciding that something isn't good for them as a whole, I can give an example.


    In Norway for example, they found that in the 19th century the country had a very serious and society damaging alcohol consumption problem. However, instead of prohibiting it outright, instead they made all kinds of alcohol difficult and expensive to buy- to this day, hard liquor cannot not be sold everywhere or served everywhere every day. Beer and wine is also restricted in where it can be purchased ( hard liquor is also restricted the in the same manner above). Norwegians seem very happy with their society, because they see the intrinsic value behind the restriction.

    Slavery? Child labor? Marital rape? Forced sterilization? I never said that Mac was for any of these things. To imply that he was for these things because that is one's own biased vision of the 19th Century is not really fair. In actually, the 19th Century was the beginning of a lot of humanitarian changes even as there were new problems and challenges occurring at that same time. However, to discuss and rebut this in depth would force me to go off topic and I'm not going to do that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  12. Elwood21

    Elwood21 Pathologist

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    Continuing to catch up on eps here :p.

    Was okay. Not brilliant. Warbled between Deliberately Sedate and Danged Slow. The ep felt tired.

    Wasn't a fan of the intro/teaser. Yes, it is part of NY's staple bag o' tricks, the Long Drawn Out !Sexy to cut with a gruesome death. But. Damn, didn't it drag on for bloody ever. A teaser, two minutes or less, should not bore one to f*cking tears. The ep's intro, should not induce channel hopping twitch reflex, especially when the opposite is intended. Mallets in establishing venue, kewl, sexeh, character, and contrasting. And another example of how NY warps time, bends and stretches it and curls it around its pinky finger. Dragged on for bloody ever :lol:.

    That said. I actually liked the ep. Rather, while it wasn't the most enthralling thing NY has done this season, it didn't irk me to the same degree that the previous one did, though it definitely did have it's irritations. Hm. OK. I recall being vaguely entertained moreso than irritated. and so, in balance, I liked it :lol:.

    The alcohol bar was perplexing as a venue for inclusion, and I imagine, would have atrocious insurance rates, being a flammable liquid hot box wherein one could also run the risk of drowning in air :lol:. But, eh, NY periodically hasta be Kewl and Sexy and pushing whatever envelope, yada. Just often feels very contrived when they do, and this ep was no different.

    It was interesting to have the Spanish CSI Equivalent dude present, and I think I was basically curious about that, and how they'd weave an ep around it, more than I was intrigued by the death (as opposed to "Homicide") in question.

    (Which, by dint of the early goings, had me already suspicious it wouldn't be. A homicide, that is. Lo and behold :p).

    Jo understanding Spanish tweaked an eyebrow, but at least they 'splained in a reasonable fashion how it was feasible for her, and nicely tied it to her FBI past. The treaty that had sent her overseas was also neatly tied into Hector being able to put himself in the middle of everything in NY as well.

    Lindsay and Spanish, conversely, felt a convenient add-on taking advantage of the fact that Spain and Spanish featured in the ep at all. (Not dissimilar to everyone immediately and conveniently being expert uber-high-end Formula racing automotive mechanics in an ep that featured it). That, or Lindsay apparently simply knows Spanish thru her natural brilliance. Or, she's been listening to instructional cd's under her pillow at night and picking it up subliminally. Cos it's also apparently a newly acquired talent, pulled outta left field, or somewherez else more dark and murky :p. That's the discrepancy for me. One, is a feasible if eyebrow tweaking coincidence. Two ...is a Mallet.

    I liked the bristly quality of interaction between Hector and the NY team, and that their hands were essentially tied in that regard. I also appreciated the hint at larger political issues/treaties both parties could use but were also constricted by. The ep was understatedly cagey, early on. It continued to be interesting with the revelation that the girlfriend called Miguel's mother in Spain. What detracted from that slightly was the Small World element of Hector being related. NY writes an ep that goes across the bloody ocean, ...and it's still a small world after all. Meh.

    Was irked by the Sid/Lindsay scene. Sry, but AB just doesn't carry that sorta play off as well as some of the others do with Sid. It was, however, nice to see Sid again. I was wondering why the scene was written as such at all, and got the aha flicker in realizing it was setting up her arrival to the Adam/Jo/Mac scene that followed shortly after.

    My curiosity ebbed by the time Mac suggested he wasn't necessarily prepared to dub the death a homicide, given the apparent lack of struggle, blood patterns, odd findings ie. bedsores, yada. The tension or at least the sense of urgency that had been driving the ep to that point, between Hector and the CSIs, was all but done.

    Flack and Danny go to the mist bar. Should be fun. Became rather predictable. Leo runs. Of course. They chase. Of course. And damned if the taps did light on fire, but none of the other presumably pooling alcohol or damp surfaces did, nor any of the people drenched, nor any residual alcohol showering down :lol:. Whatever. It would qualify for Ridiculous had it been a tad more extreme, oh, say, like Flack's leap. It wasn't ridiculous. It was slightly flashy but in a somewhat half-hearted fashion. I like Danny /Flack scenes. But the in-joke on take-downs etc. isn't so fresh anymore. I recall thinking here that NY also needs to find new ways to use their characters. Their templates are showing again.

    What regained some of my interest was Jo's interrogation scene. Just some little bit of business that set the scene off. Nice.

    What felt further irrelevant as the ep went on was the tidbit Sheldon had been pursuing from the top of the hour, the galium-whassit results. I glazed vaguely at a few points thru the ep, and I think this was one of them. I know Sheldon was in the ep. He felt as prominent as Sid.

    The mother arriving should have ramped up the urgency and/or tension again, but NY itself either glazed over, or took a more understated approach. Hard to say which. Hector was certainly more conciliatory by this point, and seemingly driven by finding some conclusive answer rather than by appeasing family, even if he was still adamant it was a homicide.

    Jo/Lindsay. Talking to the girlfriend on the street. A horrible, horrible scene. The actress playing the girlfriend was poor here, AB matched it. Jo shoulda just gone for a bite to eat here and come back.

    Ah. Lindsay's Spanish scene happened hereabouts. I was irritated by her earlier, a few times, but couldn't be arsed to keep track of why. Here, I had been so annoyed that I scribbled "f*cking hell. f*cking f*cking hell." End quote. :lol:.

    Flack & Danny's interrogation with the solar panel thief had a harder edge than I was expecting. Neither good nor bad. Just was. I suppose the only conclusion I'll draw from that was a lack of a cohesive pulse for the ep as a whole, just a whole bunch of different and sometimes erratic ones kitted together.

    It was odd that only later in the ep did Hector reveal that Miguel's father died in unusual circumstances. He also admitted Miguel's death may not have been murder after all. And yet, I managed to ask, again, who tossed the knife. The characters weren't allowed to ask that yet. They had to go find a blood drop. So, Mac and Hector, now working together, went back to suss it out.

    Can I also observe that NY's score for this ep was not the most subtle thing in the world, but, I can't argue that it didn't fit either.

    May I also suggest that the death scene/renactment was rather awkward. I mean, yah, how the hell do ya depict something like that. But. It added to a disjointed ep.

    The final, Mac/girlfriend interrogation. I had noted: "...pure. bloody. exposition. to wrap up the ep for lack of time." A whooooooooole lotta dialogue crammed in alluvasudden to 'splain everything, bring up suicide as an issue, without really addressing it, explain two Unusual Deaths, years separated and an ocean apart but part of the same Small World, enable a near-happyish !Poignant-Ending and then tucking the ep away for the week.

    I glazed again a bit by that point. I wasn't particularly annoyed by the ending, case-wise, nor by the exchange the show felt compelled to plate, than by the feeling like it was basically in service of Theme of The Week, especially the feeling it wasn't given due time thru the course of the ep, if it was gonna be a weighty twist.

    The mother's last minute defiance and seeming brittle exhaustion brought out a defensive barb at Jo, of "if it were your son, what would you have done?" One might normally take that as rhetorical, and Jo's response was saved by the prefacing shrug and "I don't know" before the hug quotient was spoken.

    I dunno either. I shrug at the hour as a whole.

    Wasn't a great ep. But, it had a few good points, lacked a few.

    Thought Hector coulda been used to push Mac and the team a bit more, but can't really complain about how he was written. Well, other than being Related, of course. As for suicide. It was hardly a grand revelation by the time they uttered it aloud. Mebbe the story mighta benefited from playing at that possible family history earlier on and thru the whole ep. It needed something to keep the pressure on, once Hector & NY stopped overtly butting heads, and the Mother's presence wasn't enough.

    The premise was interesting, the international angle, someone with credentials from overseas legitimately poking about. It felt a bit wasted. It got bogged rather quickly within what was essentially a family tragedy brought from one shore to the next. Once that happened, Hector was somehow a less effective foil. Once it became a family centric drama, any real pretense of murder by Unknown Villain went out the window, and it was a suspicious death. That made all the running about feel like, well, just running about. Setting bars alight, that sort of thing. All the running about made the extensive dialogue concluding the ep, anticlimactic at best, and rather separate from everything that had preceded it. Wasn't stitched together well enough to feel like a bait and switch, or even a grand revelation illustrated with all the pieces collected slotted in.

    Sheldon seemed extraneous again in this ep. Lindsay was irksome again in this ep, whereas she'd been better the previous week. Sid was too brief. Adam/Mac/Jo was fun. DL was not. Flack/Messer felt predictable again this week. NY seemed obsessed with Kewl again this week. More old habits creeping in. The grind of mid season? Or the early holycrap improvisational mode has settled and they've re-established the status quo?

    Keep pushing NY, don't Settle. Plz.

    Meh. Forget what I graded it. B- or C+ or thereabouts.

    Agree.

    :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  13. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    I could have not been more clear in my post about what you did wrong. If you want to continue to skirt the issue, that's fine, but you are on thin ice here. I'm getting tired of threads being derailed by you. It's trolling, plain and simple.

    I appreciate the frustration, but in the future, please leave the modding to vegaslights and me. It's our job to handle the not-fun stuff! :)
     
  14. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    But was it me or did most of the girls in the "cube" still have dry hair after dancing all around in there?:wtf::lol: I noticed it again later when Flack and Danny went to the club. And when they took the drug dealing club guy down after he set the alcohol on fire why didnt anybody shut the stupid valve off? I have been reading the various comments on depression suicide etc. so many theorys and suggested explanations, does anyone really think when the guy had access to alcohol AND drugs he wouldnt just opt to take that route?
     
  15. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    This is so rush-job, so I may be back to update (and/or actually grade) later, but. Finally caught this one. Not bad. A lot more boring than I'd've expected an episode with international jurisdiction pissing contests to be, but I do like that they've tried to put a few quirky-ish coworker moments amidst the casework. Not too sure how well it's working for me yet, but I love that they've tried :lol: Still think I like "To What End" better, but I didn't get to watch this ep as closely as I liked, so a lot of what I'll be saying might be totally off. Fair warning.

    But I think continuity could use a little work in this show, and this ep kind of reminded me why I'm starting to like characters less. Yes, Mac's sanctimonious, and arguably he's been that way for a while but before it was endearing, not "I'm-about-to-tear-my-fingernails-off-cuz-this-makes-little-sense" annoying. It felt like he was contemptuous of the girlfriend. And as someone whose had his own father ask him to end his own life because he (Mac's dad) was so tired of it, I didn't think that was an angle he'd take, or if he did, he'd do it with a lot less guilt-tripping. Yes, he said 'no' while Girlfriend said yes long enough to allow the guy to die, but in "Here's to you, Mrs Azrael", he was way more in-tune to how a person might feel suicidal, and even more sympathetic to the kid only suspected of aiding "Nicole's" supposed-suicide than he was to Girlfriend here. It's like Mac's sanctimonious now just to be that way, 'cause they don't know what else to do with him and they're taking it to levels that don't even make sense anymore.

    [Yes, I know the big differences in the two cases: Mac's father was ill and in pain, "Nicole"-if-she'd-wanted-to-kill-herself was facing disability, while the vic here apparently had physical health, looks, money, etc...but I think I agree with the girlfriend and others here, if you're suffering you're suffering. I also know that Mac said no to what may be constituted as killing his dad, not simply assisting suicide. Don't think that would've made a vast amount of difference to S3!Mac, though.]

    Gah, but whatevs. I did appreciate the theme, and that the case turned out to be a suicide (though I saw that coming); think that's the first suicide case on this show.

    Lindsay knowing Spanish made me lol, won't lie, I enjoyed that :lol:, but more for the extra hint of background it adds. Could've done without the gratuitous DL-squeeze-of-the-week, but I did like Hawkes in that scene. I thought Spanish was the second official language of the States, wouldn't she have picked it up in elementary and high school? Because this discussion got me thinking on it -- once "Communication Breakdown's" multicultural overkill became obvious to me, it did get kind of annoying, and I'll admit Angell speaking French added to that; learning in this thread that Emmanuelle Vaugier speaks French puts that in so much more context for me, though, also knowing she's Canadian. I mean, obviously I don't know where and how she learned her French exactly, but I speak it too -- and while that's not only from school, almost ten years straight of mandatory French classes didn't exactly hurt. :lol:
     

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