Yeah, I didn't really get the significance of the title either - unless it has to do with life being a (temporary) prison for the victim?
Grade 'Holding Cell'
- Thread starter Top41
- Start date
Yeah, I didn't really get the significance of the title either - unless it has to do with life being a (temporary) prison for the victim?
Yeah, that would be the only thing that would make sense to me as well.
talkingtocactus
Coroner
i dunno, i kinda liked that. i wouldn't want it to go TOO miami but having a little back-referencing cheesy skit section is fine, as long as it doesn't go overboard. so far i think they're just about on the right side of farcical.
exactly.
"Holding Cell" was CSI:NY's Very Special Episode about depression, and was, once again, ruined by Mac's overweening smug self-righteousness. Suicide and its root causes are very complex issues, and while I fall onto the side that finds it a selfish act, I abhor Mac's holier-than-thou attitude towards both the victim and the distraught girlfriend.
Fixing depression and suicidal behavior isn't as simple as going to the doctor and getting some pills. Sure, the pills can definitely help regulate brain chemistry and stabilize moods, but most folks need more intensive help than that, and often, finding the right dosages of the right medications takes time. You don't just take a pill and feel better in the morning, lalala. It takes time and determination, dedicated doctors, and support from family and friends, and poor Eduardo, who saw how his image-conscious mother reacted to his father's suicide, and who was ignored by everyone when he tried to discuss his own depression, certainly didn't have that. Even his girlfriend, who loved him very much and tried to support him and encourage him to seek help fell into the trap of "You're young and sexy and successful, so what's wrong with you?"
In most cases, suicide isn't a snap decision. It's one that bubbles at the base of the brain for a while, where it grows and takes root until the depressed person is pushed past the point of no return. It's the smothering weight of years of feeling worthless and loveless and hopeless and the horror of knowing you could live like this for the next fifty years. I had a moment like this in college. I was twenty years old and struggling with the cold reality of my disability, and it suddenly struck me that I was going to have to live with that reality for the next thirty, forty, fifty years. No respite, no days off, no possibility of getting better. The weight of those long years was crushing, and I dissolved into hysterics in my dorm room. I wasn't sure I could do this, or if I even wanted to. Fortunately for me, the girl across the hall was a paraplegic who knew exactly what I was going through, and she was there for me that night. She let me vent and give voice to that rage and fear. Who knows what might have happened if she had ignored the sounds coming out of my dorm room, what awful, stupid, pain-wracked ideas might have taken root?
Was Eduardo wrong to kill himself? I don't know. Probably. He was absolutely wrong to involve his girlfriend or the vagrant who had a pang of conscience. That he was willing to involve them in his scheme and expose the latter to a murder charge smacks of selfishness.
Maybe the girlfriend should have tried harder to stop him. Maybe she could have called the police and reported his plot, but if they had arrived before he'd set his plan in motion, all he had to do was deny everything and point out that he and his girlfriend were fighting, and odds are that the police would have chalked it up to a domestic spat and left. They might even have charged her with filing a false report. If that had happened, Eduardo most likely would have cut her out of his life altogether, waited a few days, and tried again. If you are so desperate to die that you're willing to hire vagrants to kill you, then you're not going to stop until you succeed.
So, no, I don't share Mac's contempt for the girlfriend's rationalization of her decision to help Eduardo after his death. Eduardo was a wounded animal chewing off his leg to end the pain, and there was nothing she could have done to save him from himself short of tying him to a chair and guarding him for the rest of her life. It's got to be devastating to know that the man you loved hated life so much that he would rather die, and if she needs to tell herself that he is at peace now, then let her have it.
Mac can shove his tight-assed bootstrap philosophy up his privileged, blinkered ass. Not everybody has patent leather bootstraps by which to pull themselves up. Some people don't even have boots, and of those that do, not everyone has the strength to pull themselves up. His blanket morality has gone from irksome to downright nauseating, and I find myself wishing that a perp with moxie would put one right between his eyes.
C-
Fixing depression and suicidal behavior isn't as simple as going to the doctor and getting some pills. Sure, the pills can definitely help regulate brain chemistry and stabilize moods, but most folks need more intensive help than that, and often, finding the right dosages of the right medications takes time. You don't just take a pill and feel better in the morning, lalala. It takes time and determination, dedicated doctors, and support from family and friends, and poor Eduardo, who saw how his image-conscious mother reacted to his father's suicide, and who was ignored by everyone when he tried to discuss his own depression, certainly didn't have that. Even his girlfriend, who loved him very much and tried to support him and encourage him to seek help fell into the trap of "You're young and sexy and successful, so what's wrong with you?"
In most cases, suicide isn't a snap decision. It's one that bubbles at the base of the brain for a while, where it grows and takes root until the depressed person is pushed past the point of no return. It's the smothering weight of years of feeling worthless and loveless and hopeless and the horror of knowing you could live like this for the next fifty years. I had a moment like this in college. I was twenty years old and struggling with the cold reality of my disability, and it suddenly struck me that I was going to have to live with that reality for the next thirty, forty, fifty years. No respite, no days off, no possibility of getting better. The weight of those long years was crushing, and I dissolved into hysterics in my dorm room. I wasn't sure I could do this, or if I even wanted to. Fortunately for me, the girl across the hall was a paraplegic who knew exactly what I was going through, and she was there for me that night. She let me vent and give voice to that rage and fear. Who knows what might have happened if she had ignored the sounds coming out of my dorm room, what awful, stupid, pain-wracked ideas might have taken root?
Was Eduardo wrong to kill himself? I don't know. Probably. He was absolutely wrong to involve his girlfriend or the vagrant who had a pang of conscience. That he was willing to involve them in his scheme and expose the latter to a murder charge smacks of selfishness.
Maybe the girlfriend should have tried harder to stop him. Maybe she could have called the police and reported his plot, but if they had arrived before he'd set his plan in motion, all he had to do was deny everything and point out that he and his girlfriend were fighting, and odds are that the police would have chalked it up to a domestic spat and left. They might even have charged her with filing a false report. If that had happened, Eduardo most likely would have cut her out of his life altogether, waited a few days, and tried again. If you are so desperate to die that you're willing to hire vagrants to kill you, then you're not going to stop until you succeed.
So, no, I don't share Mac's contempt for the girlfriend's rationalization of her decision to help Eduardo after his death. Eduardo was a wounded animal chewing off his leg to end the pain, and there was nothing she could have done to save him from himself short of tying him to a chair and guarding him for the rest of her life. It's got to be devastating to know that the man you loved hated life so much that he would rather die, and if she needs to tell herself that he is at peace now, then let her have it.
Mac can shove his tight-assed bootstrap philosophy up his privileged, blinkered ass. Not everybody has patent leather bootstraps by which to pull themselves up. Some people don't even have boots, and of those that do, not everyone has the strength to pull themselves up. His blanket morality has gone from irksome to downright nauseating, and I find myself wishing that a perp with moxie would put one right between his eyes.
C-
Lori K.
Pathologist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect Anomaly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lori K.
Quote:
he would in no way compromise an investigation if it involved someone he cared about. :guffaw: Seriously, Mac. Did you not chase Stella to Greece, barge in and take over a case where they had clear jurisdiction and then allow Stella to get rid of evidence???
*sigh* What a guy wouldnt do for the girl he loves....:adore:
Or a coworker with whom he has been FRIENDS for years.
exactly.
Ah Yes! Many a friendships have turned into Love.
~Sarah~
Lab Technician
Sometimes it is as simple as getting put on the right medication. I was diagnosed with depression 11 years ago after two suicide attempts and therapy was zero help. I've been on Zoloft/sertraline since. I haven't really seriously considered killing myself in years now. I went off my meds once and even my grandmother noticed that my behavior was changing. Depression often is just genetics (my mother thinks her mother suffered from a less severe form of depression), it's an imbalance of chemicals in the brain and medication can for the most part help to correct the issue.
Desertwind
Head of the Day Shift
I can't for the life of me imagine stabbing myself in the gut or anywhere else. I freak if I cut my finger with a knife. Horrific, and quite unbelievable, but good graphics how did they do that? The Spanish guy, his uncle what a fox, so handsome. A trippy episode with the girl finally coming forward. All team members were great. Mac is awesome:bolian:
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talkingtocactus
Coroner
exactly. it can be just chemical, that's true, but it isn't always, and to lump everyone in together with blanket platitudes is just wrong.
hiphugger17
Coroner
C+
I didn't find it too boring but a few things bugged me. The opening sequence with all the licking and sensual dancing was too much. I really could've done without. The spanish guy didn't have a spanish accent and that bugged me A LOT. Also, there was a chasing scene yet again.
What somehow saves the episode is the Mac/Jo/Adam scene. That's such a funny moment. I also liked the mom hugging the daughter in the end.
I didn't find it too boring but a few things bugged me. The opening sequence with all the licking and sensual dancing was too much. I really could've done without. The spanish guy didn't have a spanish accent and that bugged me A LOT. Also, there was a chasing scene yet again.
What somehow saves the episode is the Mac/Jo/Adam scene. That's such a funny moment. I also liked the mom hugging the daughter in the end.
ruby&theheadmen
Lab Technician
If Mac's middle American commonsense morality, which seems petty to some, but is a breath of fresh air to others, is used to counterbalance TPTB's message, which seems to be to allow suicide minded people to just kill themselves instead of trying every sort of intervention including being institutionalized in order to help protect themselves from themselves, then I say more power to HIM (Mac, that is).
Mac is hardly pompous; he is the salt of the earth, a down to earth person, a man of integrity. I admire him.
But these scenes of NYC ? Probably could find the same sort of clubs in major cities in Europe as well. When I try to look at them from an outsider's view they seem to be representative sadly of the all the criticism about decadence and degeneracy that outsiders claim that they don't want in their countries... I don't always agree with an outsiders' point of view, but I'm agreeing with them on this one- this aerial liquor scene sure looks all too much like a scene of perdition from my shocked eyes....
Mac is hardly pompous; he is the salt of the earth, a down to earth person, a man of integrity. I admire him.
But these scenes of NYC ? Probably could find the same sort of clubs in major cities in Europe as well. When I try to look at them from an outsider's view they seem to be representative sadly of the all the criticism about decadence and degeneracy that outsiders claim that they don't want in their countries... I don't always agree with an outsiders' point of view, but I'm agreeing with them on this one- this aerial liquor scene sure looks all too much like a scene of perdition from my shocked eyes....
PerfectAnomaly
Resident Smart Ass
TPTB can't be giving a "message" if they give both sides of the argument. They're responsible for what Mac said just as much as they are responsible for what the vic's girlfriend said. The difference lies with whom you agree. And actually there's a stronger argument that their "message" was what Mac said because he's the main character and authority figure on the show.
And honestly, I think it's pretty difficult to get a grown man institutionalized when all he has to do is deny that he's going to kill himself and present himself as a manner that doesn't show the authorities he's a threat to himself.
talkingtocactus
Coroner
^ well said. although it's easier than you think to get institutionalised, at least over here. you can deny it and up to a point that works but at some point they start taking into account other people's views, whether that be in a voluntary way (family, friends) or involuntary (neighbours, colleagues, police, random people in supermarkets). for a while you can persuade them everything's fine but after a while they get wise and you end up locked up for 6 months. fun times.
i'm not saying people shouldn't try intervention for depression and other mental illnesses, all i'm saying is that ultimately if someone wishes to damage their own person, under libertarianism (which is pretty much what the us constitution is based on) they should be able to.
as for the merits of institutionalisation, having been there multiple times i can guarantee it's not always helpful. i've been in psych units that have made me infinitely more unwell and i've seen (and taken part in) many suicide attempts that were direct results of these so called helpful interventions. not everything is as black and white as you seem to think.
generally so do i, i think he can be a tad sanctimonious at times but i think he's definitely got integrity. and as perfect anomaly pointed out, by giving characters for mac (or hawkes or flack or whoever) to argue with they are able to show both sides of most of these dilemmas quite effectively.
you can find them in pretty much any city i can think of, and that's all to the good - i enjoy going clubbing and decadent fun is just that, fun. however that doesn't mean i want to see an extended montage of it every time i watch csi. i watch the show for the crime solving and stories, not for the club scenes. they're just boring really, and i'd rather they used those 2-3 minutes not to show me something i can see any saturday night should i choose to, but something more relevant to the plot.
as for whether it's representative of anything, of course it is, it's modern society. whether that's degenerative is down to opinion although to say it is would be to travel back in time to the mid 19th century and before darwin etc. i'm not saying that stuff didn't exist then, it most certainly did and probably in more extreme ways, but the talk of a degenerate society is most definitely the talk of 150 years ago. we live in 2011
i'm not saying people shouldn't try intervention for depression and other mental illnesses, all i'm saying is that ultimately if someone wishes to damage their own person, under libertarianism (which is pretty much what the us constitution is based on) they should be able to.
as for the merits of institutionalisation, having been there multiple times i can guarantee it's not always helpful. i've been in psych units that have made me infinitely more unwell and i've seen (and taken part in) many suicide attempts that were direct results of these so called helpful interventions. not everything is as black and white as you seem to think.
generally so do i, i think he can be a tad sanctimonious at times but i think he's definitely got integrity. and as perfect anomaly pointed out, by giving characters for mac (or hawkes or flack or whoever) to argue with they are able to show both sides of most of these dilemmas quite effectively.
you can find them in pretty much any city i can think of, and that's all to the good - i enjoy going clubbing and decadent fun is just that, fun. however that doesn't mean i want to see an extended montage of it every time i watch csi. i watch the show for the crime solving and stories, not for the club scenes. they're just boring really, and i'd rather they used those 2-3 minutes not to show me something i can see any saturday night should i choose to, but something more relevant to the plot.
as for whether it's representative of anything, of course it is, it's modern society. whether that's degenerative is down to opinion although to say it is would be to travel back in time to the mid 19th century and before darwin etc. i'm not saying that stuff didn't exist then, it most certainly did and probably in more extreme ways, but the talk of a degenerate society is most definitely the talk of 150 years ago. we live in 2011
Robin
Prime Suspect
It was okay. I didn't care much for the soft porn intro. Why do they always have to show girls licking on each other in dance clubs. *roll eyes*
I got a little confused. I guess CBS must have messed up last week's show because the scene where Adam is questioning if Mac had used drug testing materials was in last week's show online. It confused me a bit when I saw it.
Lindsay speaking Spanish annoys me. Snotty little know-it-all.
I got a little confused. I guess CBS must have messed up last week's show because the scene where Adam is questioning if Mac had used drug testing materials was in last week's show online. It confused me a bit when I saw it.
Lindsay speaking Spanish annoys me. Snotty little know-it-all.
PerfectAnomaly
Resident Smart Ass
I just realized something. Danny didn't know his twu wuv and soul mate knows some Spanish and that she was teaching their child to speak it. Kind of odd if you ask me, although I guess it's not for DL because they've never communicated with each other from the get go.