Why Lindsay Must Go, Part 4

[fm62]

I thought Danny had been bouncing more than normal this season, or maybe it's more exagerated now. It drives me mad and makes me lose concentration. I've never seen anyone do that before.

 

[Top41]

I thought Danny had been bouncing more than normal this season, or maybe it's more exagerated now. It drives me mad and makes me lose concentration. I've never seen anyone do that before.

LOL, it totally cracks me up that he actually bounces--I think it's absolutely adorable. I've not seen anyone over the age of ten or so do it, but it fits Danny. :lol:

 

[CSI Cupcake]

Danny, on the other hand reminded me of a Jack Russell Terrier, bouncing back and forth between her head and her hoo-haw.

But that's Danny. The guy is a spaz most of the time.

I could almost hear "kibbles and bits, kibbles and bits" in the background

:guffaw:That is hilarious on more than one level.

I realized that after I put up the reply:devil:

JellyBelly, it's scary how alike we think sometimes. I was actually thinking of a very short leash.

Top, if the kiss was that telling to you, and this is a scripted show where the actors are given direction and only so much improve is allowed, then how do you think the writers want us to view this couple? They have had ample opportunity to remove Anna/Lindsay from the show by not renewing her contract and haven't done it. If anything they have taken opportunities to throw them together even way before the pregnancy storyline, which you and I have debated before. Nothing has stopped them from not connecting this couple and moving away from the D/L ship, yet they have done the exact opposite and moved forward with it. I've even looked at interviews from actors, writers, and producers and they all seem to champion both the actress and the character.

Is it just personal taste in what the viewer sees as chemistry between either two actors or two characters or have the viewers missed something important when it comes to Danny and Lindsay that the writers and directors see? This question can apply to both shippers and non-shippers as perhaps we all see things through our own colored glasses.

 

[fm62]

I can actually see them as very close friends and do think they have a different type of chemistry, but they seem to shy away from the romantic stuff. The actors don't seem to get the lovey storyline, lots of viewers dont get the storyline, but I'm sure the writers do, they push it all the time in interviews.

In the UK TV forums I lurk in, people were surprised she was pregnant, as they didn't realise they were a couple. The discussion getting to how slow Danny's sperm was, since it was ages since Snow Day.

 

[Top41]

Top, if the kiss was that telling to you, and this is a scripted show where the actors are given direction and only so much improve is allowed, then how do you think the writers want us to view this couple?

Oh, I think the writers want us to view them on solid ground. Both Lenkov and Veasey have said as much in interviews. But the fact that they're not shown together in this really, really pivotal episode for them as a couple suggests to me that there's an awareness that something is lacking between the actors in the chemistry department. Chemistry is subjective to a certain degree--everyone is going to have different preferences on pairings--but these two have never really had any heat to their relationship. It's been sweet at points--when Lindsay isn't at Danny's throat for some wrong, real or perceived--but it's never been hot.

They have had ample opportunity to remove Anna/Lindsay from the show by not renewing her contract and haven't done it.

Has her initial contract even expired yet? I have no idea how long they are, but from what I understand, many contracts for lower level series regs (or even upper level ones) are for six years. If that's the case, she's got two more years on her contract.

And a woman who gets pregnant every other season is practically untouchable in terms of firing. No one wants that lawsuit.

If anything they have taken opportunities to throw them together even way before the pregnancy storyline, which you and I have debated before. Nothing has stopped them from not connecting this couple and moving away from the D/L ship, yet they have done the exact opposite and moved forward with it.

It certainly seemed like they were moving away from it before Anna came back from hiatus and told them she was pregnant...again. No interaction since "Personal Foul" and Rikki returning--until Anna's pregnancy changed all of that. I look at this storyline more as practicality than ideal, for anyone. It wasn't the best thing for Danny, certainly. It wasn't even the best thing for Lindsay--now there's no chance she'll ever stand on her own as a character.

I've even looked at interviews from actors, writers, and producers and they all seem to champion both the actress and the character.

No one would say otherwise, even if they thought so. They're all professionals. You'll never hear one actor say anything bad about another on his/her show publicly, or a writer. And they might all think she's great--but if they don't, you'll never, ever hear otherwise.

Is it just personal taste in what the viewer sees as chemistry between either two actors or two characters or have the viewers missed something important when it comes to Danny and Lindsay that the writers and directors see? This question can apply to both shippers and non-shippers as perhaps we all see things through our own colored glasses.

It's always going to be personal taste when it comes to seeing chemistry between two characters. I was pretty surprised when after Eric and Calleigh got together as a couple a lot of people came out of the woodwork saying they didn't like them and didn't see chemistry between them. I've always thought Eric and Calleigh were headed towards something romantic and found the progression both natural and overflowing with chemistry. At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal opinion.

At the same time, it's hard to ignore that there are a lot of people who dislike Lindsay. This thread wouldn't have reached a fourth installment if that weren't the case. If you go back and look at the first thread, there's an almost completely different set of posters in it. And there are new people stopping by every day. To me, that says that the problem isn't in the head of just a few fans who don't like Lindsay/Anna.

That's not to take away from those that do--Lindsay definitely has her fans and their opinions are just as valid as the opinions of those who don't like her. At the end of the day, all a message board is is a collection of opinions. To me, there's fun to be had in the discussion and debate.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

Good points, thanks for answering my questions.

I think I read on here where, at some point, Anna had renewed her contract but I don't have any inside information about the logistics and lengths so I will admit that the contract thing was an assumption on my part. I figured that a new character would have a shorter contract to start out with, hence the opportunity not to renew.

I think the scene at the end with both of them tucked in the bed with the baby was as important as the kiss he could have given her immediately after the birth. At the end of a very exciting yet exhausting day they were together, regardless of who they talked to separately or how complicated it was getting to each other. I can fill in the blanks with the best of them and see how Danny needed a break and Stella stopped by so he went with Adam to get coffee, as Adam has a cup in his hand in his and Danny's scene in the opposite hallway. I don't think it was just camera angles and lack of space in the viewfinder that made him crawl into bed with her. But that is the joy of opinions.

I did notice when I first started looking at this thread that the posters were different. People come and go on these boards as their interest in the series changes. I enjoy all the different opinions, which is why I come here and also frequent the "I love Lindsay" threads as well. Once you get past all the emoting there are some pretty intelligent viewers out there with a lot of insight.

 

[Top41]

Good points, thanks for answering my questions.

I think I read on here where, at some point, Anna had renewed her contract but I don't have any inside information about the logistics and lengths so I will admit that the contract thing was an assumption on my part. I figured that a new character would have a shorter contract to start out with, hence the opportunity not to renew.

Not always, actually. And Anna just walked into the position of regular without the recurring status that AJ and Robert Joy began with. She was in the opening credits in the first episode she appeared in--likely because they were in such a rush to fill that role and wanted someone permanent.

I think the scene at the end with both of them tucked in the bed with the baby was as important as the kiss he could have given her immediately after the birth.

I guess so...though to me it wasn't very intimate because the whole team was surrounding them. If you think about it, they didn't really have a moment alone in the episode, unless you count the birth scene (though the doctor and nurses would have been present for that).

At the end of a very exciting yet exhausting day they were together, regardless of who they talked to separately or how complicated it was getting to each other.

Sure, they're together. We know they're together. We see it--in the broadest strokes. But there aren't really intimate little moments there, and any that have been there this season were about the baby and not really Danny and Lindsay being so in love. Even the wedding--there's no way Danny would have been in such a rush to marry her had she not been carrying his baby.

I can fill in the blanks with the best of them and see how Danny needed a break and Stella stopped by so he went with Adam to get coffee, as Adam has a cup in his hand in his and Danny's scene in the opposite hallway.

Sure, but why are those the scenes we see, rather than the ones between Danny and Lindsay? Why are those the scenes the writers chose to show us?

I don't think it was just camera angles and lack of space in the viewfinder that made him crawl into bed with her. But that is the joy of opinions.

Oh, I don't think that either. I think they were trying to show them together in a scene where the actors' lack of chemistry wouldn't be glaringly apparent, since they're interacting with the rest of the team.

I did notice when I first started looking at this thread that the posters were different. People come and go on these boards as their interest in the series changes. I enjoy all the different opinions, which is why I come here and also frequent the "I love Lindsay" threads as well. Once you get past all the emoting there are some pretty intelligent viewers out there with a lot of insight.

There really are, and it's why I enjoy these discussions so much. It's nice to hear other perspectives and to think about things from an angle I hadn't considered before.

 

[Plenilunio]

CSI_Cupcake, bravo! I do love your posts. I don't agree with most of the things you say, but I love the way you express your points carefully, providing arguments to support your ideas.

I think the bed scene wasn't only a question of intimacy, but of "heck, how do we make them all fit in the scene? There's too many of them!". Also, whether the audience like it or not, they are supposed to be a couple and we've been shown they are again and again during this season. They've just had a baby, not showing them side by side and smiling like idiots at the bundle of joy wouldn't make sense. I'm not saying they smile like idiots just because it's them, though. I don't mean that. It's just that 99% of the people, myself included, can't help putting a stupid smile on their face when in front of a baby.

I hope DL development improves, I really do. There must be something they can do, I'm sure.

 

[JellyBelly]

Sure, but why are those the scenes we see, rather than the ones between Danny and Lindsay? Why are those the scenes the writers chose to show us?

Because ultimately this show is about the team. It's what sets it apart from the other CSI shows apparently (not that I'd know because I don't really watch the others). I really think tptb have chosen to showcase the DL relatioship through the team as much as possible and I wonder how much of that is their efforts not to let it take over. It's all very well developing a niche in terms of being the character driven show, but it gets tricky when you then have to fit the personal storylines in with the crime.

They obviously used the baby event to showcase how close the team was, that seemed to be their goal much more than showing how close Danny and Lindsay are.

 

[Top41]

CSI_Cupcake, bravo! I do love your posts. I don't agree with most of the things you say, but I love the way you express your points carefully, providing arguments to support your ideas.

Ditto. And yours as well, JellyBelly. It's nice to have some friendly debate in this thread.

Because ultimately this show is about the team. It's what sets it apart from the other CSI shows apparently (not that I'd know because I don't really watch the others). I really think tptb have chosen to showcase the DL relatioship through the team as much as possible and I wonder how much of that is their efforts not to let it take over. It's all very well developing a niche in terms of being the character driven show, but it gets tricky when you then have to fit the personal storylines in with the crime.

Well, it is about the team...at the same time, it's hard to believe the writers couldn't have found time to fit in a single scene between Danny and Lindsay if they had wanted to. The most intimate moment between them was when they were smiling at each other far, far across the hospital floor. There were plenty of team moment opportunities--Lindsay getting Adam to drive her to the hospital, Hawkes driving Danny, Flack on the phone with Danny, everyone at the hospital together at the end without having Danny and Lindsay's big confessional moments being with characters other than each other.

If it was just this one time, it wouldn't have been quite as noteworthy, but it's par for the course with this pair. When Lindsay revealed her dark secret, she told Stella, not Danny. Danny turns to Flack when he's an emotional wreck, not Lindsay. Danny confides in Mac about how he feels about Lindsay rather than talking to her.

They obviously used the baby event to showcase how close the team was, that seemed to be their goal much more than showing how close Danny and Lindsay are.

True...but I think there's a reason behind that--because Danny and Lindsay have better, stronger, more interesting, more dynamic interactions with other people on the team than they do with each other.

 

[JellyBelly]

CSI_Cupcake, bravo! I do love your posts. I don't agree with most of the things you say, but I love the way you express your points carefully, providing arguments to support your ideas.

Ditto. And yours as well, JellyBelly. It's nice to have some friendly debate in this thread.

Thank you. It's great to be able to discuss things without it getting personal or judgemental about why we all see things the way we do.

Well, it is about the team...at the same time, it's hard to believe the writers couldn't have found time to fit in a single scene between Danny and Lindsay if they had wanted to. The most intimate moment between them was when they were smiling at each other far, far across the hospital floor.

Actually I think that was the 'nicest' moment between them but not the most intimate. That came immediately after the birth, with Danny holding her and whispering to her. I know there was no kiss but I don't think Lindsay would have appreciated it at that point because she could hardly catch her breath :lol:.

There were plenty of team moment opportunities--Lindsay getting Adam to drive her to the hospital, Hawkes driving Danny, Flack on the phone with Danny, everyone at the hospital together at the end without having Danny and Lindsay's big confessional moments being with characters other than each other.

If it was just this one time, it wouldn't have been quite as noteworthy, but it's par for the course with this pair. When Lindsay revealed her dark secret, she told Stella, not Danny. Danny turns to Flack when he's an emotional wreck, not Lindsay. Danny confides in Mac about how he feels about Lindsay rather than talking to her.

You're right and it's always struck me as weird and a little annoying that they've done that. I mean, how hard would it have been to give them a moment for just the three of them, then have the team come in afterwards? It wasn't as though the case was so intense the time couldn't have been spared for a little personal moment.

It's just that I don't see it as being because tptb see a lack of chemistry. I see it as them being a little too tentative in their approach and a little too fond of the drama between these two. It just doesn't make sense to me that tptb don't see anything between them, or that they feel Anna isn't up to the job. I could be wrong and they may well think those things but if that's the case then why take the route they've taken?

I appreciate what you say about Anna's contract, but again it makes little sense that they'd give her a binding lengthy contract until they're sure about her. Also, contracts can be renegotiated or terminated if there's just cause. An actor not up to the job would be just cause in my mind. And yes, pregnancy makes things a little more difficult but not impossible. If someone isn't doing their job properly or to a standard expected then they will only be given so many chances. Contracts are a two way street in that respect. They are there to protect the employee and the employer.

True...but I think there's a reason behind that--because Danny and Lindsay have better, stronger, more interesting, more dynamic interactions with other people on the team than they do with each other.

Well, I think we've seen more interesting, better, stronger, more dynamic interactions between them and other people but I think that's because tptb were playing the usual will they/won't they game. If they had Lindsay confiding in Danny in s3 or Danny confiding in Lindsay in s4 then they'd have lost out on all the drama these two generate.

Now they've chosen that 'they will' as opposed to 'they won't' but they're still holding them back from any real intimacy that isn't directly related to the baby. You could well be right, and they may have done it because they don't really see any depth to their relationship. But again what boggles my mind about that theory is why put them together in first place?

Something else that has occasionally popped into my head has been the whole issue of keeping the fans happy. I've seen frustrated comments from people who believe tptb have put them together to keep a certain portion of the fandom happy. If that's the case isn't it also possible that they're holding back in an effort not to alienate the rest? I'm not saying that's necessarily the case but I think it's an interesting point and one I'd like to get your (and anyone else's) opinion on. For example, we know that people connected with the show lurk on this board. They have to know that there are a significant number of people who don't like Lindsay and who don't like Danny and Lindsay together (and that's not to say there aren't people who like one but not the other). How much do you think fan opinion influences what we see on screen?

Personally, I think it does to a certain extent, but that the writer's have a story to tell and they'll do it the way they want. I don't follow a huge amount of shows, but I have been surprised by how the NY ptb have been so open about giving fans what they want e.g. more Hawkes, more Adam, more DL. They seem to have been quite open about making some decisions because it's what the fans have seemed to want. So, that to me does then beg the question as to what they should do when there's such a split between fandom groups.

 

[roximonoxide]

I appreciate what you say about Anna's contract, but again it makes little sense that they'd give her a binding lengthy contract until they're sure about her. Also, contracts can be renegotiated or terminated if there's just cause. An actor not up to the job would be just cause in my mind. And yes, pregnancy makes things a little more difficult but not impossible. If someone isn't doing their job properly or to a standard expected then they will only be given so many chances. Contracts are a two way street in that respect. They are there to protect the employee and the employer.

Unfortunately, that's what makes me suspicious of the gross nepotism in the industry.

Something else that has occasionally popped into my head has been the whole issue of keeping the fans happy. I've seen frustrated comments from people who believe tptb have put them together to keep a certain portion of the fandom happy. If that's the case isn't it also possible that they're holding back in an effort not to alienate the rest?

I've definitely wondered if the severe butchery of Lindsay and nearly any plot tied to her is so confusing and unfulfilling is because of an attempt to appease so many points of view with her has left her spread so thin she might as well be a paper doll. I wish I had an answer to that to.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

CSI_Cupcake, bravo! I do love your posts. I don't agree with most of the things you say, but I love the way you express your points carefully, providing arguments to support your ideas.

I hope DL development improves, I really do. There must be something they can do, I'm sure.

Thank you so much for the kind words.

I too hope the DL development improves because they have made it a permanent (for now at least) part of the show. It's okay that you don't agree with most of what I say. I'm really not here to accuse or change anyone's mind about them and I'm not a die-hard shipper of these two. Sometimes Lindsay frustrates me as much as she does others here. I just find the couple fascinating because I haven't yet figured out why the PTB want us to believe one thing yet show us little to nothing to support that scenario.

Top, you have some definite points that I have a hard time arguing against. I see chemistry between them and I know some don't and I don't see it as a lack between the actors. I think it's in the eye of the viewer and it's okay that we don't agree. At some point, maybe this summer when things are slow, I would like to revisit some of the older episodes and ask some questions about how some things have been perceived because I wasn't here for the initial discussion.

Oh yeah, and JellyBelly...ditto!

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

I think there's a lot to the suggestion that TPTB plays from both ends with DL. They know there's a lot of debate about them and there are people who detest them just as much as others adore them. I think they also know that fans of the show aren't going to do a mass exodus because of anything that happens or doesn't happen between DL. How many times have I threatened to stop watching the show because of DL? :wtf: I've had every intention of following through with it, but there's so much more to the show that keeps me watching.

I do think they're maybe trying to please everyone to a certain extent and sometimes they end up pleasing no one because they don't commit to either them being obviously in love or them being obviously not in love. In a way I think it's smart, but in another way I think it ends up somewhat alienating fans. I know I'd like Lindsay better if we were supposed to find some of her behavior questionable or obnoxious or whatever. Hell, Danny is my favorite character and I sometimes find his behavior questionable or obnoxious or whatever. If I had been Hawkes I would have pushed him out of the SUV while it was still moving when they were on their way to the hospital. I'd also like DL as a couple better if we were shown aspects of their relationship instead of being told about them. Sometimes after the fact. There's just too many blanks that have to be filled in for me to make any sense of their relationship. But other people see no problem with making the assumptions or filling in the blanks themselves to find it believable. I also think the online community is vocal, but let's face it, it's small no matter which side of the fence people sit.

I have no idea where this is going anymore. At this point I'm pretty much just rambling so I'll shut up for now.

 

[Top41]

I definitely agree with the notion that this storyline has been played on both sides of the fence in an effort to please everyone--or at least not piss off a big part of the fanbase. :lol: For instance, since Danny and Lindsay have been married, there's been a real effort on the part of the writers to show that Danny is still an impulsive hothead...the part of his character that really drew in a lot of fans.

On the flipside, I think the marriage was pandering to the fanbase who like the couple. I still maintain that they're together not because the storyline naturally led that way, but because Anna Belknap got pregnant again and this was the best way they could address it. Hiding it didn't work out so well the last time, so making Lindsay pregnant both gave Anna something to do aside from hiding behind desks and pleased part of the fanbase. And since Lindsay was already pregnant by Danny, why not give people the whole fairytale? They could get milage out of promoing the wedding and the birth, and make the older, somewhat conservative section of their audience happy.

Now I'm rambling. :lol: I admit, I don't come into this thread as often as I used to. I think Lindsay should have gone two seasons ago, in "Snow Day" before she did major damage to Danny's character. At this point, that's moot. Anna's still a weak actress, but Lindsay has more or less been put in a corner--she's the glorified lab tech who's also married to Danny. In a way, that's probably the best compromise we're going to get. Those of us who don't like her don't have to watch her emote, and those who do like her get to see her romance with Danny flourish. The only loser, IMO, is Danny, though I do think the writers are making an effort to keep his storylines fresh and dynamic. If that continues, then it's probably the best compromise we're all going to see.