Season 14 Spoiler Lab Discussion

[Speedystokesgirl]

I don't think they're supposed to learn anything. I think they're making an example of George to keep the others in line. Apparently they don't care what the viewers think as evidenced by the continued ridiculous storylines and focus on DB's family, Finn's boyfriends, and Morgan. Or they simply don't care about the dedicated longtime fans anymore...the ones who know episodes by heart, titles, etc. and own all of the DVDs.

Smokey, you hit the nail on the head...that this was done to punish George and keep the others in line. A 'either put up or shut up or you're out of here'.

I think if George does come back he writers won't want to write for him anymore, he'll be an afterthought and probably just process evidence in the lab.

If he doesn't come back and they let him out of his contract, I'm afraid it won't even been mentioned.

He DESERVERS and WE DESERVE a probably good-bye for Nick and DO NOT kill him off.

 

[Crumbs]

I find it amusing that some people are complaining about the soap opera/romance/CSI in peril drama and then citing the Miniature Killer storyline as the show's best. Hold on, didn't that pretty much end with Sara being kidnapped and wandering around the desert, Grissom declaring "I took the only person she loved, so she's going to do the same to me" and the (in my opinion) disappointingly terrible revelation that she killed when she came into contact with bleach.

I found that Living Doll was probably one of the most boring episodes of the entire series and Dead Doll was even worse.

I'm remaining in the camp that the season premiere will be dramatically over the top, sideline most of the cast, and have a rushed/poorly thoughtout ending. The rest of the episodes will probably sit bog-standard - subpar with a couple of good ones and a couple of duds.

My final two cents on how I think the George/writer SCANDAL went down. The writer wrote a crap storyline, George got fed up and wanted out, willing to miss the 300th episode as a statement of defiance and dedication to his argument, Carol wanted him to stay, a compromise was made and George has left for some episodes.

I genuinely believe the writers wanted to make the 300th a big thing for the original guys and the fans judging by what we've heard for it, bringing Marg back and possibly judging by the huge backlash to #200. They wouldn't willingly risk the backlash from fans (as evidenced here) of not letting George take part, as punishment for an argument with another writer. I firmly believe opting out of 300 was George's decision.

I'm not saying the writers are in the right by the way. I think they need to stop out-competing themselves for the most ridiculous and convoluted storyline they can come up with and I hope this incident is the biggest wake up call for them to get their heads screwed on and back to basics. We may have been complaining for years over here but if you go to Facebook/Twitter you still see a lot of people posting how great each episode is after it's aired (when they're not demanding Grissom back anyway). When one of your actors quits due to creative differences, that's the biggest amount of negative feedback they can get really, because sadly our voices are a million times smaller in comparison.

 

[Smokey]

I thought the miniature killer story was cool until it turned into "bleach makes me crazy and I want revenge on Grissom's girlfriend". But they didn't do the Dr. Jekyll killer story any better. "Mad at dad because I couldn't be a doctor"? Really? And do not get me started on Haskell. Best one ever was Paul Milander in my opinion.

And I would love to believe that George stepped out on his own, but not knowing for sure still makes me very sad for him and for the sorry excuse of a "showrunner" they have.

 

[JorjaFoxFan]

Sad as it is, I think Nick stepping away for a few episodes might be the first step in the right direction. Somebody finally stood up to the head honchos, things need to change if they want to keep this show going.

 

[Speedystokesgirl]

Let's go with the scenario that George was put on a leave as a suspension. That Carol reprimanded him and put him on leave.

What would everything think then?

At first I was thinking that he was put on leave to calm down, then maybe it was a compromise between the two. Then that George left on his own.

However, I'm leaning more toward that he was forced on this leave. I would have a hard time thinking that George would voluntarily walk away from the 300th episode knowing his fans would be upset about it. I could see him saying I'll miss the episode before, do the 300th and then take off after that.

If they are truly going to focus more on the originals for this episode, I don't think he would let us down. CM I believe would let us and the die hard fans down.

I wish we knew the truth, though. But since Mendelsohn is so OUT OF TOUCH with the die hard fans and so are the writers, I'm going to have to go with he was forced.

So if CM did punish him with this leave, which took an original away from the 300th and the show, what you think then?

 

[Gloriana]

I don't think they're supposed to learn anything. I think they're making an example of George to keep the others in line. Apparently they don't care what the viewers think as evidenced by the continued ridiculous storylines and focus on DB's family, Finn's boyfriends, and Morgan. Or they simply don't care about the dedicated longtime fans anymore...the ones who know episodes by heart, titles, etc. and own all of the DVDs.

Completely agreed, couldn't have said it better.

I hate when the defense is "Writers aren't required to write everything to make fans happy. That's impossible and unreasonable, so quit complaining".

I never expect any show to be 100% perfect and I don't get upset just because a story might not go the way I would have preferred (e.g., I was so bummed when Greg left the lab, but at first it seemed like they were really going to develop his character so I accepted and rolled with it), but I think there's an area of straight-up fairness when it comes to the fans who really invest themselves in a show.

It hasn't felt like the writers have just decided to take the stories in creative directions the fans might not always be prepared for, it feels like they've been placating the network honchos and selling out left and right for the sake of cashing paychecks (Hello, ridiculous and inappropriate stunt casting!). There is just no integrity left to it, and it sucks so bad because once upon a time it really was excellent (and it really did open the door for so many of the other procedurals which followed).

It's not the end of the world when writers do stuff like this with a show, and it's not some major trauma, but it still truly sucks. I watch the first seasons and I'm like "Man, what HAPPENED here?". They make all of these snobby excuses for their choices all the time in interviews, and I don't honestly think they have any real regard for fans at all (aside from their value in terms of ratings, DVD sales, and social media promotion).

I do kind of hope Eads held a mirror up to their faces and called them out on this kind of stuff too. They have a right to do whatever they're going to do, I just agree it's kind of nice to think maybe someone at the front lines may have said it like it really is.

Again, I don't mean to sound so snotty, it's just a bummer when you look back at how good it used to be.

 

[Crumbs]

However, I'm leaning more toward that he was forced on this leave. I would have a hard time thinking that George would voluntarily walk away from the 300th episode knowing his fans would be upset about it. I could see him saying I'll miss the episode before, do the 300th and then take off after that.

If they are truly going to focus more on the originals for this episode, I don't think he would let us down. CM I believe would let us and the die hard fans down.

I'd be more disappointed if George were to say "I don't like this storyline, I don't like where my character is headed so I want to quit, oh but before I do I want to do the 300th". To me, that would say he's not committed to what he's fighting for and he'd end up acting out a storyline he's not happy with. That would disappoint me more.

This is clearly something he's been fed up with for a long time. He noted it in an interview recently with Shane I believe that the writing gets 'funky' and the even more recent reports are saying he hasn't been particularly happy for years. If you desperately want something, or you want to send a message, you have to go all in, there are no exceptions and that is exactly what I feel George has done and I'm really happy if that's the case he's firmly standing up for what he believes in.

Something we haven't considered is, what if he had a problem with the episode itself. I know he had an argument with one of episode 4's writers, but wouldn't it be around that time they start getting their scripts for episode 5 as well? The "dangerous girlfriend" storyline was supposed to show up in this one I believe as well. Although it's Gavin Harris' episode it's not necessarily his storyline, likely one crafted by another group of writers he's been asked to write into it.

There's a mentality around here that the writers are out there to deliberately screw with us which I personally feel is ridiculous. The thing is the writers are creating episodes and stories which they think the viewers and fans will enjoy, unfortunately for us (and also for them), we just don't like them. Just because the stories aren't good enough, it doesn't mean the writers are deliberately yanking our chains. The thought that writers are deliberately trying to piss us off as viewers is absurd. (I know some of you are going to cite last year's GSR storyline, but the writer's genuinely (and wrongfully) thought it would create interesting dynamic/drama.)

Again, I'm not saying the writers are in the right here and yes, somebody will need to fill up the water urn of creativity within their office. They're just doing wrong things with good intentions.

 

[Gloriana]

There's a mentality around here that the writers are out there to deliberately screw with us which I personally feel is ridiculous. The thing is the writers are creating episodes and stories which they think the viewers and fans will enjoy, unfortunately for us (and also for them), we just don't like them. Just because the stories aren't good enough, it doesn't mean the writers are deliberately yanking our chains. The thought that writers are deliberately trying to piss us off as viewers is absurd. (I know some of you are going to cite last year's GSR storyline, but the writer's genuinely (and wrongfully) thought it would create interesting dynamic/drama.)

Again, I'm not saying the writers are in the right here and yes, somebody will need to fill up the water urn of creativity within their office. They're just doing wrong things with good intentions.

Yeah, I agree with this, I don't think the writers deliberately write stuff to make fans suffer (though, yeah, it has entered my mind in passing sometimes, haha). I just think they're;

1. Out of touch with fan perspective.
2. Rather uninterested in fan perspective where it matters.
3. Really, really insecure about criticisms, unable to handle them constructively and/or effectively.
4. More than a little stuck up their own backsides ever since the praise heaped on them for the first few seasons.
5. Way too caught up in the "You gotta write for ratings" trap and lax on the depth they provided before.

I've honestly given them the benefit of the doubt for years and defended them, especially given all the circumstances beyond their control (cast shuffling, network bigwig interference, season-to-season renewal jitters, etc,). I have no clue how hard it is to keep a show running and I'm not such a d-bag I'd ever honestly pretend I have any real idea.

It's just, I think it does go beyond that. I do feel they HAVE had the power to control a lot of the things that have gone wrong with the writing and base-presentation of the show, and I do feel they actively disregarded things they have to have known the fans counted on. I'm talking about basic stuff like staying true to established history and character development.

They just started sacrificing the character history bit by bit, and betraying everything we came to know and care about, you know? I don't think they did any of that to tick off the fans on purpose, I just think they didn't care enough about the investment fans had made in the show to stop it from happening. And hey, they managed to keep up enough ratings to get renewals, so why should they?

I think I'm like most folks who feel they simply chose paychecks over integrity and staying true to what they had created in the first place. I think they've deluded themselves into thinking "It's worth it to the fans because the show is still going", ignoring the truth that most of the real fans would have preferred the series ended when it was still a great show rather than see it become what it is now.

 

[Lilith]

A lot of you guys have summed up my exact feeling about this show right now .


If this were some non-procedural show, I guess after 13 years, I would sort of understand, but since character development was never the primary focus for years in comparison to the cases and forensics, there's a still a lot about Greg, Nick, Sara and Brass that's still unknown or unresolved, that the writers could wrap up. It's hard enough that the cases themselves are no longer as interesting for the most part and at times, have become over the top and unbelievable.


I want to look forward to the 300th episode, because of the potential it has (or had)..but now, Nick's not in it, I don't know what role Brass will have, there's a chance the writers could screw things up (like for instance, end up rewriting CSI's history, especially in the flashbacks, and a lot of that is part of what made these characters who they are....for one thing, I will really be upset if they change the fact that Greg was once the DNA tech :shifty:; his evolution from a labrat to a CSI was one of the best storylines for him and played such a big part in developing his character). But more than that....would that really be enough in the end, if it turns out the writers are just throwing us a bone with this episode, and the rest of the season will be the D.B., Finn, Morgan and Hodges show, AGAIN???

Like a lot of you guys, I've also been wondering the same thing too for awhile, (about the writers just not caring about the original cast and the long time fans of this show). But, you may have a point Crumbs, even if they are going in directions a lot of hard core fans dislike, maybe it wasn't their intention to disappoint fans in general, and this is only one of the many fan sites for CSI, and there are millions of other viewers of the show out there who may not be as invested in the original cast and what the show used to stand for.

Even though I'm not holding my breath, and won't be surprised if this season disappoints me, season 14 will still be my final attempt.

 

[Smokey]

What weighs on my mind right now is how quick tptb were to say "See ya!" when George and Jorja wanted more money in Season 5. It would not surprise me to see the same thing here...."You don't like the story? Then don't act in it. See ya!" The only saving grace for me is that after they came back Season 5 was excellent (in my opinion), so I have a tiny bit of hope that this one might be salvaged if/when George comes back. On the other hand, they did screw up Season 5 by splitting up the team and thankfully recognized their mistake, so who knows?

There are some who say the actors are paid to act, the writers are paid to write, but how would they feel if their favorite character in whatever show were suddenly made to do something totally ridiculous and out of character? It just makes no sense.

And I'm still mad that they made Vega a murderer.

 

[RocketScientist]

Crumbs - in particular - I want to say I think your comments are smart and I totally agree.

 

[Crumbs]

George and Jorja were fired by CBS, not the writers, back before Season 5.

I'll be really interested to see what does happen when George returns. As I said before, the writers will always get differing feedback from differing fanbases which doesn't give them a clear direction on where they should go, but if one of your major stars has a problem then it speaks a lot louder to the writers in my opinion.

I found it interesting how after Fishburne left the tone of the show completely changed going into Season 12 into a much more lighthearted atmosphere. Fans had been complaining for years about the depressing tone the show had declined into with little change. Fishburne chooses not to renew his contract and yeah, almost completely different show and the Haskell "cliffhanger" is completely dropped. Which makes me wonder if he or a castmember might have dropped a big hint that they were going in a poor direction. We still don't really know what the circumstances around Fishburne's departure are really (we were all busy cheering :lol: ) but maybe my cautiously optimistic mindset is seeing a potential correlation.

Another thing which crossed my mind concerning the "was he suspended/did he quit" discussion is how the remaining castmembers would react if George was essentially thrown under the bus so to speak. They clearly all have a good relationship with each other (going back to the George/Jorja firing, Jorja refused to sign back up unless George was coming back) and I thought we may have heard something from them if George was let go for episode 300 or what they perceived to be in unwarranted circumstances?

This is all just speculation really, and I doubt we'll ever find out how events really played out but the idea that George was let go by the writing team just doesn't quite add up to me.

 

[Smokey]

Oh I don't think the writers had anything to do with his leave. It was the meeting with CM that led to it.

The only thing that I've seen in any show of support for George after this was an old pic of him and DustinLA that DLA posted afterward. But even he didn't actually say anything in support.

 

[Gloriana]

What weighs on my mind right now is how quick tptb were to say "See ya!" when George and Jorja wanted more money in Season 5. It would not surprise me to see the same thing here...."You don't like the story? Then don't act in it. See ya!" The only saving grace for me is that after they came back Season 5 was excellent (in my opinion), so I have a tiny bit of hope that this one might be salvaged if/when George comes back. On the other hand, they did screw up Season 5 by splitting up the team and thankfully recognized their mistake, so who knows?

I think the Nick Stokes character still has a huge chance to make it to the final episode reasonably intact and true to the Nick we know, but I don't have a whole lot of hope for the season itself, you know? Back at Season 5 they were still on a path of consistency with everything that came before, which isn't the case this time.

Still, while they've had Stokes do a lot of 'against character' type things for the past few seasons, his character is still pretty much the core personality he's been since day one (and now I wonder how much of it might have to do with Eads making sure of that through previous discussions when they wanted to do anti-Nick stories, I wonder if this actually isn't the first time he's spoken up about something). I definitely think Nick could make it to the end in a way that's true to that character if only the writers don't bork it to hell (or if he doesn't just jump ship, which I wouldn't blame him for)

I'm with you in hoping Nick might be the one character who does make it to the end as himself, in a way we can all believe he would.

There are some who say the actors are paid to act, the writers are paid to write, but how would they feel if their favorite character in whatever show were suddenly made to do something totally ridiculous and out of character? It just makes no sense.

And I'm still mad that they made Vega a murderer.

Yet again, you totally nailed it. It's really just that simple and honest.

I think sometimes the writers want to pass it off like they're having the character evolve, but we're not that dumb, you know? It's not evolution of a character, it's just plain ret-conning all over the place or making a character suddenly behave in some absurd way for the sake of making something fit into a dramatic plot point they've decided to toss in. It's so cheap and it does alienate people.

And yeah, poor Vega. They did him wrong for no good reason.

Just like Frank's Diner *sniffle*

 

[byline]

I find it amusing that some people are complaining about the soap opera/romance/CSI in peril drama and then citing the Miniature Killer storyline as the show's best. Hold on, didn't that pretty much end with Sara being kidnapped and wandering around the desert, Grissom declaring "I took the only person she loved, so she's going to do the same to me" and the (in my opinion) disappointingly terrible revelation that she killed when she came into contact with bleach.

I found that Living Doll was probably one of the most boring episodes of the entire series and Dead Doll was even worse.

I thought the miniature killer story was cool until it turned into "bleach makes me crazy and I want revenge on Grissom's girlfriend". But they didn't do the Dr. Jekyll killer story any better. "Mad at dad because I couldn't be a doctor"? Really? And do not get me started on Haskell. Best one ever was Paul Milander in my opinion.

I absolutely agree with both of you on this. For me, the Miniature Killer story arc was great until they turned it into a Sara/Grissom soap (with a sadly underwhelming culprit; I'm convinced Petersen must've been grinding his teeth through those scenes).

And then that seemed to establish a pattern that they haven't veered from since. It's a symptom of something I've long suspected: The showrunners have run out of original ideas, and once that happened they started having the writers rely more and more on soap opera-ish storylines ... the very thing that has felled so many other once-great shows.