"Redrum" Discussion **Spoilers**

S_Bright said:
xfcanadian said:


there are police who break laws, but catherine didn't break any laws...this was set up by the police department, it unethical, but not illegal.
But she did! She tampered with a controlled substance and planted it as evidence on another case. The mere fact that she handled narcotics without logging the incidence is a crime.

IRL she would have been fired already.

but she was ordered to to it, from the undersheriff, she wouldn't be fired because they knew about it, and she was given permission to set up the crime scene. I think people are just looking for an excuse to pick on catherine, or they completely missed the point of the episode.

Besides, Nick, warrick, sara and greg broke into the evidence locker and handled evidence that was suposed to be confidential, so they were just as decieving, if not more.
 
If you remember, just before the undersheriff walked out of the diner, it was basically set that he was the one to check with the DA. Cath & Keppler were the ones to stage the scene, Brass was to handle the police part of the plan. Why would any of the others think they needed to check with the DA when they all expected the undersheriff to do his part, since he was the one to make the decision on the plan.

Exactly! And that's why Brass was so ticked off when the Undersheriff asked which one of the three screwed it up to which Brass replied "I'm looking at him". There were four people who played a part in it and that fourth person dropped the ball.
 
But, labgeekluvr, had Mia (when Greg and Hodges asked her out) or Sara (when Greg and David hit on her) or Warrick (when Catherine told him she had feelings for him) felt the opposite or uncomfortable, it would have been sexual harassment.

And people have been fired just for asking someone out in the workplace, if their actions were unwelcome to another employee.

I think the Sherriff was indeed the one to drop the ball overall - if the DA had said no from the outset, they never would've had to do any of this.

But at the end of the day, the show is called CSI, and they're the characters we're supposed to be following.
 
xfcanadian said:

but she was ordered to to it, from the undersheriff, she wouldn't be fired because they knew about it, and she was given permission to set up the crime scene. I think people are just looking for an excuse to pick on catherine, or they completely missed the point of the episode.

Besides, Nick, warrick, sara and greg broke into the evidence locker and handled evidence that was suposed to be confidential, so they were just as decieving, if not more.
No even an undersheriff has the right to ask his employees to steal narcotics, no way. There are very strict laws and regulations about that and the stash would have been marked specifically for this operation. Not taken off another case. It simply works that way, you just don't go stealing controlled substances.

Did Cath have the right to hide the evidence in the first place? Who else does that? From warrick that was in on the case? What exactly did they have clearance to do from the DA since the cae was dropped? Cath had the responsability for the lab, she should never have trusted the undersheriff. She should have contacted the DA herself and checked, she'd never done this before and followed Keppler's lead without a question.

The episode was IMHO just to show how badly Cath handled it because she didn't trust her team, and what an influence on cath Keppler really has. she was palin old stupid in this case and I hope she's earned her lesson.

However much you love Cath, the fact is that she indeed committed a crime that would never have been sanctioned under any circumstance.

Anybody else noticing that she had long sleeves and a vest when she processed the scene with Nick. Processing with kepller, what was she wearing? :D See where TPTB are taking this...

I hate what they are doing to Cath, but it's been done before. TPTB do not handle female characters very well. never has, never will.
 
The episode was IMHO just to show how badly Cath handled it because she didn't trust her team, and what an influence on cath Keppler really has. she was palin old stupid in this case and I hope she's earned her lesson.
The way I see it, telling 4 more people is way risky. It's not that they can't be trusted to keep a secret. It's just that a LOT more could go wrong if they knew about it. What if one of them slipped and lets it out? What if they're talking among themselves and someone overhears? And besides, what would be the point in telling them? It won't help the case if they knew what was going on. Sara and Greg were working on a different case. Also, let's say Catherine told Nick. I don't think he'd go along with it. Given that, he may even try stopping the operation or delay it, and the whole plan would have fallen apart.

However much you love Cath, the fact is that she indeed committed a crime that would never have been sanctioned under any circumstance.
Catherine did what she had to do. Like what ericasj said, it uses the same principle as going undercover. Anybody has seen "The Departed"?

Their job as CSIs has been done. They have followed the evidence. They were going to get Simon convicted if only he was anywhere to be found. In faking the crime scene, they took their duty further in order to catch the bad guy.

Anyways, morals aside, the episode still rocked because it's different and we get to see more action/drama. It's definitely more interesting than another "The evidence never lies" line from Grissom.
 
Well I don't hold Tge departed as a very realistic film, and as of lately CSI has begun to get a tad too unrealistc for me too. Which is really funny since it's supposed to be scientific.

With Catherine stealing drugs, sanctioned by the undershereiff (a judge needed to ok that and mark the drugs accordingly) CSI is all but realistic.

I liked the drama, especially Nick kicking ass, but I cringed at the plotholes.
 
sarahvma said:
But, labgeekluvr, had Mia (when Greg and Hodges asked her out) or Sara (when Greg and David hit on her) or Warrick (when Catherine told him she had feelings for him) felt the opposite or uncomfortable, it would have been sexual harassment.

And people have been fired just for asking someone out in the workplace, if their actions were unwelcome to another employee.
You can ask a co-worker out, if they say "no" you shouldn't ask them again otherwise it could be a ground for sexual harassment. The action should be unreasonable, severe and pervasive. If you repeatedly asked a person out to dinner or to sleep with you, and that person time and again tells you that he/she is not interested then that is sexual harassment. Aside from the fact that their actions were welcome, if I remember it right, Greg, Hodges, David, etc. did it but once.

sarahvma said:
Warrick (when Catherine told him she had feelings for him) felt the opposite or uncomfortable, it would have been sexual harassment.
As far as I know, Warrick couldn't file for a harassment suit because it was him who asked Catherine to open up and give her reaction in the first place. Warrick was the iniator, and the conversation was decent and consensual. No harassment there.

This is from Lisa on Elyse's CSI site, she asked a lawyer/former judge/public defender's insight on the episode. I hope this would clear up some of the legal questions of the posters in here:

"I happen to have a good friend who is an attorney and a former judge and public defender, and she watches CSI. She saw this episode. I asked her if what they did was illegal, and in a nutshell, here is what she said.

The main issue would be whether or not they broke the chain of custody. If the evidence was ever out of the custodial control of the appropriate people, it could be viewed as tampering. But as long as the people who moved it were lab people and it was still safe and inaccessible to tampering by outsiders, the evidence would be admissable. It didn't go home with anyone; it was always in the hands of CSIs.

As far as this being an issue in court, she said it's a matter of the weight of it versus the admissability of it. The usual process didn't occur, but if they can always demonstrate the chain, and the original evidence is available, it's solid.

She also said that they had no need to fabricate a crime scene, validating what was mentioned above - that they could have accomplished the same thing by planting something false in the media. It's not unusual for the police to hide their intentions, such as when they claim to have made an arrest in order to lure a perp into a false sense of safety. They didn't need the science to do that; It was unnecessary and elaborate.

She felt that they took a risk in doing this because it shows how evidence can be fabricated and that could come back to haunt them.

As for the DA, she said that they should have informed the DA up front. She could have been helpful in telling them how to safeguard themselves and their case. If the DA HAD been in the loop, the case could have been prosecuted. This judge, my friend, felt that the DA's ego was the real problem, that her objections had more to do with being left out than with it happening at all."
 
I personaly think that Keppler is there to mess Grissom up. I remember once Grissom saying he had an Uncle Herb (past tense) that was a plumber. Strange isn't it that Keppler's father Herb is a plumber. Kepplers father died when he was 3, Grissom would have been old enough to remember his uncle. Things that make you go hmmmm. Perhaps Keppler's mother is Grissom's Aunt. Maybe Keppler's secret past involves Grissom. I also think Grissom has an idea who the model killer is. Could it be Keppler. :D
 
I was re-watching Felonious Monk and noticed an interesting dialog between Catherine and Jimmy, and old friend of hers.

Cath: What you did was capital crime. You can't play with evidence, especially in a murder. [...]
Cath: What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to dummy my report? [...]
Cath: Think about this. When you were out there planting evidence on a case that you couldn't break, Stephanies real killer got away. An he's still out there. Because you sold the one thing a cop can't afford to sell ... your integrity.

Sheds an interesting light on her behaviour.
 
yes, but he did planted evidence without telling ANYBODY! he didn't fake a whole crimescene, just one piece of evidence. and this way an innocent man was adjudged to do life in prison! he thought this man was guilty so he decided to plant evidence to "help" catching him. what catherine and keppler did was only to catch the real killer! nobody innocent was really accused of murder! they just pretended to have the real killer...so there is a difference between the two cases!
 
cathwillows said:
...so there is a difference between the two cases!

Never said something contrary, did I? But it do is interesting to see, what her opinion is/was about faked evidence in general.
 
^ Catherine still doesn't like it. Remember that she didn't want the whole reverse forensics thing in the first place, but she was told it wasn't her call.
 
i think the point is she tampered with evidence in the other case. weve already been over how handling the drugs without documentation is a big no-no.
and i know the show was written so that the cases were related, but on the off chance they werent the guy would have gotten away with murder. and thats something all of them would have to live with.
 
Yeah I know what you mean. Frankly I'm thrilled that the fans obviously know more than the writers do. :D However it's also a fact that Catherine hadn't changed her opinion about fake evidence. It just sucks that she had to go against her own opinion. I think being willing (Jimmy) or not (Catherine) does make a difference.
 
EricaSJ said:
Yeah I know what you mean. Frankly I'm thrilled that the fans obviously know more than the writers do. :D However it's also a fact that Catherine hadn't changed her opinion about fake evidence. It just sucks that she had to go against her own opinion. I think being willing (Jimmy) or not (Catherine) does make a difference.
ITA with you, Erica. I've always seen Cath as an honest person and she had to follow orders that went against her nature. Also, she didn't make a very good job of trying to conceal what they were doing, as if she wanted the young ones to find out the truth by themselves since she couldn't say a word to anybody. jmho
 
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