New World Order: Conspiracy Theory ( & A Whole Lot More)

Roka4csi

Coroner
There is no simple way to start a thread like this, partly because to some it may be a simple theory that some "lunatics" came up with. To others it's something they'd rather not think of, something that sparks too much fear for them to carry on and enjoy their lives normally. Then there are those of us that decide we'd rather read the subliminal messages sent to us by our governments and world leaders. It's a subject that tends to make one think they're paranoid for ever trusting their government. And there is proof that this is going on, it isn't a mere theory that lacks substantial evidence, that lacks trails leading us to where we are.For starters, I'll copy/paste an article I got off Wikipedia encyclopedia that's as detailed as can be as well as very simple to understand. I should remind you though that Wikipedia is not a 100% trusted source merely because it can be tempered with. Many people change articles and write them the way they want on Wikipedia, but its the one article I have that simplifies everything the way it does. And it is as close to true as it gets. I will continue to provide you with articles, and maybe I can ask Desert_researcher to come back and share her information with us as well.
If the text appears too confusing to read through my post, there is a link to the page i took it from that's alot clearer.



New World Order (conspiracy)
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"One World Government" redirects here. For the general concept of global political governance, see World government.
New World Order (Novus Ordo Mundi) refers to a conspiracy theory in which a powerful and secretive group (Illuminati, Freemasons, etc.) has created a secret plan to eventually rule the world via a unitary (as opposed to federal) world government.

Contents [show]
1 The basics
2 Signs
3 Ideologies
3.1 New Age Idea That the Conspiracy is Benevolent
3.2 New World Order Time Line
3.3 Specific Ideas About Who is Behind the Conspiracy
3.4 General Ideas About How the Conspiracy Will Implement the New World Order
4 Connections between theory and nationalism
5 Manichean element
6 Historical manipulations
7 Predicted socio-political changes
8 Black helicopters
9 Other theories
10 Annuit Cœptis Novus Ordo Seclorum
11 References
12 See also
13 Literature promoting belief in a New World Order conspiracy
14 References in fiction to the New World Order
15 The New World Order conspiracy in Popular Culture
16 External links



[edit]
The basics
New world order is an integrative millenarian conspiracy theory that appears in both religious and secular versions. It emerged as a combination, and recombination, of the reaction by fundamentalist Christian eschatology to New Age ideas, with the long-standing disposition to blame conspiracies for shifting social inequities. [1]

Elements of the theory are present in the populism of the nineteenth century. The theories in their present form can be traced to the collapse of Soviet Communism and President George H. W. Bush's speech of 11 September 1990. In it he described the United States' objectives for post-cold-war cooperation with the former Soviet Union, using the phrase "new world order." [2]

In new world order conspiracy theories, everything significant is caused by a powerful secret group. Historical and current events are seen as steps in an on-going plot to rule the world.

Supporters of this theory can say to a certain degree who is part of it. Nobody can determine who isn't part of the NWO. Most prominent families such as the Rothschild Family, Rockefeller Family, Morgans, Kissingers, Schroders, and DuPonts, as well as European monarchs, are said to be important members. The theory claims that virtually all important persons of the international world of banking, commerce, arts, entertainment, and mass media are involved.

International organizations such as the World Bank, IMF, European Union, the United States, the United Nations and NATO are often listed as core NWO organizations. Presidents and prime ministers of nations are routinely included in this huge conspiracy. A slightly different version of the NWO conspiracy theory goes as far as saying that these families and persons are all part of the same bloodline. [citation needed]Though there are many internet sites and books that present these ideas as factual, evidence to support this does not exist. This fuels NWO conspiracy theory because conspiracists see this lack of evidence as proof of organized "truth supression".[3]

[edit]
Signs
According to theorists there are many signs that will confirm these claims. For example, the strange murals in the Denver International Airport, the Illuminati seal on the $1 bill, Masonic signs on buildings (namely in Washington DC), pentagrams worked into city plans, and apparently, the digits 6-6-6 hidden in most barcodes.


Reverse side of the Great Seal of the United StatesThe belief may stem — at least partly — from the political phrase "New World Order", which has been used in politics for much of the twentieth century. The phrase New World Order has its roots in the Latin phrases Annuit Cœptis, meaning "He has approved our undertakings," and Novus Ordo Seclorum meaning "A New Order of the Ages."

Other names for the New World Order are Illuminati Bankers, High Cabal, Fourth Reich, Synarchist International, the Cryptocracy and the Power elite.

[edit]
Ideologies
There are a number of different ideologies related to this belief:[4]

[edit]
New Age Idea That the Conspiracy is Benevolent
Alice A. Bailey, the "New Age Prophetess", predicted (correctly) in 1940 the victory of the Allies over the Axis and the establishment afterward by the Allies of a "New World Order"--regarded by her (as by H.G. Wells [see below]) as a benevolent conspiracy by political progressives that would bring humanity to a higher level of civilization. [5] [1]
Some New Age philosophers [6] and some liberals regard the establishment of the New World Order as a positive event. They think that, even though force may be necessary in the beginning, ultimately the New World Order will bring about world peace through the establishment of a Federal World Government based on International Law.
[edit]
New World Order Time Line
These are events conspiracy theorists say are pivotal in the establishment of the New World Order. [2]

In the July 17, 1926 Saturday Evening Post, the term "New World Order" was used for the first time in a popular magazine article to describe the work of Edward M. House in helping to create the League of Nations and helping to found the Council on Foreign Relations. [7] [3]
In 1935 the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United States with the Eye of Providence above the Pyramid appears for the first time on the back of the one dollar U.S. Dollar bill.
Lionel Curtis wrote a book in 1938 called The Commonwealth of God in which he advocated that the United States and the British Empire should jointly impose a World Government which would be presented as being the work of God: "I feel that when once the Protestant churches had learned to regard the creation of a world commonwealth as an all-important aspect of their work in realising the Kingdom of God, an international commonwealth in the English-speaking world would come into being in a few generations". [8] [4]
H.G. Wells said in his 1940 book entitled "The New World Order": "... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system. Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people." [5]H.G. Wells called his effort to organize prominent intellectuals behind the idea of establishing a World Government "The Open Conspiracy" (a benevolent one) in his 1928 book by that name. [6]
The term "One World" originated from the 1943 book One World by liberal Republican Wendell Willkie. In the book he described his 31,000 mile journey around the world from August 26 to October 14, 1942 in the Consolidated bomber "Gulliver" to meet with Allied war leaders. [9]
In 1944, the Bretton Woods Agreement is signed, outlining a regime for the post World War II world economy.
In 1945, the United Nations is founded.
In 1946, Bertrand Russell supported the Baruch Plan for establishment of a world government based on international control of atomic weapons, and advocated that the United States and the United Kingdom should use their atomic monopoly to compel the assent of the Soviet Union if necessary for the sake of achieving permanent world peace. On October 1, 1946, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists carried an article by Bertrand Russell entitled The Atomic Bomb and the Prevention of War, where he writes, "The American and British governments ... should make it clear that genuine international cooperation is what they most desire. But although peace should be their goal, they should not let it appear that they are for peace at any price. At a certain stage, when their plan (sic) for an international government are ripe, they should offer them to the world ... If Russia acquiesced willingly, all would be well. If not, it would be necessary to bring pressure to bear, even to the extent of risking war". [7]
In 1954, the Bilderberg Group is founded.
On March 25, 1957 the EEC (European Common Market) is formed, which in 1992 changed its name to the European Union. It is believed by many Christians that the Anti-Christ will be a future President of the European Union.
In 1961, Arnold Toynbee said: "in the present Atomic Age we shall not have assured the survival of the human race until we have established a world-government and made the present national governments subordinate to it". [10]
In 1973, David Rockefeller organizes the Trilateral Commission.
In 1974, retail stores begin using the Universal Product Code. Some regard the UPC as being the Mark of the Beast. [8]
On September 11, 1990, the President of the United States, George H.W. Bush gave his famous speech, "Toward a New World Order" to a joint session of the United States Congress. (To access this speech, type the phrase "Toward a New World Order" [without quotes] in the search box of Wikisource: [9].)
In 1995, the World Trade Organization begins functioning.
The WTO Ministerial Conference of 1999 protest activity took place on November 30, 1999, when the World Trade Organization (WTO) convened in Seattle, Washington, USA.
In 2002 the FDA approves the manufacture of the VeriChip Microchip implant (human). Much more intrusive than the UPC, this arouses people's fears that a future totalitarian government could enforce the implanting of these chips and thus fulfill the Book of Revelation prophecy regarding the Mark of the Beast. [10] [11]
On September 20, 2002 the George W. Bush White House posts on its website the full text of the (at that time) newest National Security Strategy of the United States, composed primarily by Neo-Conservative Paul Wolfowitz. In this document, the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive war is outlined. It is asserted that the United States Military has an Imperium over the entire planet Earth; thus this document is viewed by many as the first formal and open declaration of the establishment of the American Empire, as long desired by many prominent Neo-Conservatives. For many weeks thereafter, there were many articles about the new "American Empire" in the New York Times and other major newspapers. (For introductory preface, dated September 17, 2002, see [12]; for actual complete document, dated September 20, 2002, see [13].)
On March 20, 2003 the Bush Doctrine is implemented with the invasion of Iraq, thus launching the Iraq War.
In 2005, transhumanist futurist philosopher and computer scientist Ray Kurzweil reports that "The U.S. Joint Forces Command "Project Alpha"...envisions a 2025 fighting force that 'is largely robotic.' " [11]
[edit]
Specific Ideas About Who is Behind the Conspiracy
A common thread is that each group believes its enemies are behind the conspiracy:

Ultra-liberals, anarchists, socialists and Communists are opposed to the New World Order because they see it as being run by the big capitalist plutocrats such as David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission. It is claimed that the real purpose of globalization (the economic aspect of the New World Order) is to enable the big capitalists who run the transnational corporations to exploit the workers to the maxiumum possible extent and thus gain more profits for themselves. a few fringe leftists believe the Neo-Conservatives engineered the September 11th attacks (or allowed them to happen) in order to be able to use the subsequent War on Terrorism as an excuse for the United States Military to ultimately seize the remaining petroleum supply of the world because of the Neo-Conservatives' awareness of the impending crisis of Peak Oil. It is asserted that the real purpose of the Iraq War was for the United States to gain control of Iraq's petroleum reserves to provide a "swing supply" (supply cushion) during the coming Peak Oil crisis. [12] [14].
Neo-Nazi groups such as the National Alliance believe the Jews or at least Zionists are behind the conspiracy. They assert the establishment of the New World Order is being engineered by Neo-Conservatives to provide support for Israel and they point out that most Neo-Conservative leaders are Jewish and some of them have worked as advisors to the government of Israel. It is claimed that the real reason the Iraq War was fought is that the Zionists thought that Saddam Hussein was a threat to Israel that needed to be removed. They also often asserted that part of the goal of the New World Order is to foster egalitarianism and enforce the integration of inherently inequal races to engender miscegenation and submerge the genetically greater intellects of some races into the genetically lesser intellects of others, in order to breed a one-world race with an intellect far below Jewish averages. It is stated that it is extremely difficult for most people to find out the truth about the conspiracy because, it is asserted, the mass media are overwhelmingly owned or indirectly controlled by the Jews or Zionists or those who support these groups. Many Neo-Nazi groups use their expressed opposition to the New World Order as a recruiting tool. See: [15] [16]
The perennial U.S. presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche claims that the "New World Order" is a conspiracy directed by the House of Windsor (the British royal family), which, he asserts, also controls the international Illegal drug trade. He claims the Fabian Society (which H.G. Wells was a member of) was secretly financed by the Royal Family so that the Windsors could gain control of the eventual world government. LaRouche asserts that as of 2006 the Neo-Conservatives (especially Dick Cheney) are working with the House of Windsor to set up a type of fascism throughout the world which LaRouche calls synarchism and which, he claims, the Neo-Conservatives hope will become the basis of the New World Order [17].
Paleoconservative Patrick J. Buchanan asserts the Council on Foreign Relations (itself supposedly a front for the "international bankers", as well as, it is claimed, the inspiration for the founding of the Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, and World Trade Organization) is behind the conspiracy. He claims that the liberals are planning to eventually subvert the independence of the United States of America by subordinating national sovereignty to the United Nations. [13] [18]
Some fundamentalist evangelical Christian ideologies about the conspiracy include a prominent religious element, based on prophecies in the Book of Revelation about the coming of the Anti-Christ, and they assert that agents of Satan are involved. These beliefs often include explicit millenarianism. Other ideologies do not have a religious component, and view the concept of "serving Satan" metaphorically. Compare Pat Robertson's The New World Order [19][20]to William Cooper's Behold a Pale Horse [21], both listed under "Literature" below . The fundamentalist evangelical Christian view regarding the expected events leading to the implementation of the New World Order and the emergence of the Anti-Christ as well as the subsequent Battle of Armageddon and Second Coming is exhaustively summarized in the 1998 book Final Warning: The History of the New World Order by David Allen Rivera: [22].
Anarcho-primitivists, anarchists, radical Environmentalists, ultra-populists, and Neo-Luddites (and occasionally, though drastically-less often, Bioconservatives) sometimes claim that there is or may be an explicit (conspiracy) or implicit (bloc) organisation of intellectuals, technologists, technocrats, intelligentsia, technophiles, and other such intellectual elites who push a radically pro-technology, pro-scientific, anti-natural, anti-environment, dehumanising, anti-freedom agenda. Generally, such notions tend to be connected to the theories mentioned above, related to capitalism and transnational corporations, with the idea being that technology is profitable, and human mediocrity is profitable, and thus, generally, capitalists and capitalist societies are in at least implicit collusion with technologists, intelligentsia, and scientists in order to pacify, standardise, dehumanise, technologically-saturate and commodify human beings, to create the ultimate global consumer society. Anti-psychiatry sometimes plays a role in such theories, as it is claimed that the fields of psychology and psychiatry are for the purposes of medicating the individualist instincts of people and creating a conformant "therapeutic society". Sometimes, the technocratic New World Order is said to have Transhumanist ambitions, with the ultimate aim being to engineer life and thus control it that much more by completing the process of turning people and animals and into things. See: [23] Such themes are popular in science fiction - See: 1 2 3
[edit]
General Ideas About How the Conspiracy Will Implement the New World Order
The understanding of some believers is that the New World Order will be created by a military coup, using UN and American troops, against all the nations of the world to bring about a singular world government. Some conspiracists believed this process would be set in motion by the predicted Y2K computer crisis causing widespread social disorder.[14]
Other believers say the New World Order is being implemented gradually, citing the foundation of the Federal Reserve, Colonialism, American Imperialism, the formation of the United Nations, formation of the World Health Organization, the World Bank, the formation of the European Union and the Euro currency, Zionism and the goal of Greater Israel, African Union and the September 11th attacks as major milestones.
Another related set of believers maintains that the United States is itself to be taken over, by troops nominally loyal to the United Nations but in fact controlled by a trans-national group (sometimes referred to as Faction One). The takeover is to include the detention of 'patriots' and those hostile to the conspiracy in secret internment camps in remote parts of the country, to which elements of the population will be taken for processing before being released as "work-units."
Other components of the conspiracy may include the dispersal of chemicals into the atmosphere via aircraft in the Chemtrail theory, the well-known CIA mind control experiments performed under the code name MK-ULTRA, and involvement by extraterrestrials, as in the Dulce Base conspiracy theories.
The Mental Health system has been cited as a means to keep dissidents in line. It has been used by totalitarian regimes to do this, and some, if not all of these regimes still do this.
[edit]
Connections between theory and nationalism
There are many theories which feature a plan to create a one-world government. Most of these theories envision this as being done against the self-interest of the particular nation they happen to live in. Sociologists draw a connection between these theories and a more general sentiment of nationalism or isolationism. For example, prior to the rise of Neoconservatism in the United States, conservative or Republican talk show hosts such as Rush Limbaugh would criticize different politicians for internationalist positions they felt were not in the best interest of the United States. Commentators would allege unethical or conspiratorial conduct on by disfavored politicians in support of this criticism. These allegations might be similar to new world order conspiracy theories. Historically this debate has most often centered around supporters of international free trade versus protectionists. Since protectionists generally believe that opposing a certain liberalization of trade helps their own country, it is then implied the free trade supporters are supporting a position against their own country. New world order theories therefore most often do not surmise that the believer's nation is working for world control, but rather that others, perhaps including powerful officials, are working to control that country and all countries.[15]

[edit]
Manichean element
New World Order theories are often criticized for failing to explain why wealthy and powerful individuals are trying to overthrow the government, and are willing to use extremely violent means to do so. For most people, the theories do not persuasively explain why these men would want to jeopardize themselves to gain a position which would be less grand than their present state. Without an explanation, it seems that the conspirators must be "pure evil". This concept is known in literature as manichean duality. This fits naturally in Christian New World Order conspiracy theories, since the antagonist is the Antichrist; it does not fit well with purely secular conspiracy theories.

[edit]
Historical manipulations
The conspirators thought to be responsible for the new world order are also suspected of staging many historical events such as World Wars and UFO sightings. New world order conspiracy theorists say that world leaders throughout history have successfully manipulated their people into wars. To support their assertion that the take-over they fear is possible, they cite what they consider to be previous examples of such manipulations:

The Nazis capitalized on the Reichstag fire by blaming the Communists for it, thus eliminating support for the Communist party in Germany, and leading to Nazi domination of the legislature.
The United States supposedly knew in advance of the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and President Roosevelt used the attacks as a "legitimate" reason for entering World War II.
Operation Northwoods, a proposed series of false flag operations to be used as a pretext for an invasion of Cuba, was rejected by President Kennedy shortly before his assassination.
The Gulf of Tonkin Incident led President Johnson to escalate U.S. hostilities in Vietnam
The September 11, 2001 attacks, engineered by elements of the conspiracy, was a sacrifice the United States government deemed acceptable, since it allowed them to declare war on Afghanistan, and Iraq, a large source of oil. This in turn would let the United States take their oil under the façade of anti-terrorism measures, giving the conspirators even more power.
Other new world order theorists see the conspiracy at work in globalization, or in the various intellectual movements evolved from Marxism, ranging from social democracy to the Frankfurt School. These are thought to be intended to homogenize cultures and values by political normalization, as in the European Union and African Union's gradual "communitarian construction" scheme of a common economic and legal framework.

[edit]
Predicted socio-political changes
The literature promoting belief in this conspiracy, some of which is listed below, predicts changes that will occur as the NWO is implemented. A representative sample includes:

Restriction of politically incorrect speech
Gradual loss of civil liberties, with the Constitution being reinterpreted along pro-UN lines
Gun control, leading to the eventual elimination of private gun ownership
Homeschooling and private schooling made illegal, with not only a UN-approved public-school curriculum, but also the possibility of forcing all students to remain in school until graduation
Local responsibilities taken over by the Federal government
Black helicopters, paramilitary militias organized from urban gangs, and the imposition of martial law; FEMA concentration camps for dissidents
All national and local elections monitored by the UN
The UN taking the responsibilities of the US government
Foreign troops on US soil
The US constitution replaced by the UN charter
World-wide economic equalization under UN control
All cash money eliminated (and the use of such being made illegal), with payments made using implanted microchips; See VeriChip
The abolition of private property
Surveillance, implants, and mind-control
Only approved religions permitted, leading to world-wide introduction of an official "New Age" religion
The Mental Health system to be used to keep critics in line
Important American documents such as the Constitution being rewritten along pro-UN lines.
Those who are religious to be executed, or imprisoned in concentration camps and/or in mental hospitals
[edit]
Black helicopters
Main article: Black Helicopters (conspiracy)
Black helicopters are part of a conspiracy theory, especially prevalent among the US militia movement, that claims that special unmarked "black" helicopters are being used now in secret military operations and are going to be used by secret agents of the New World Order to implement the New World Order.

[edit]
Other theories
Although the UN is usually a central figure in most theories, conspiracy theory in the twenty-first century allows for the addition of many ideas that in the past might have been thought mutually exclusive. Extra-terrestrials (either the "Reptilians" or the "Greys"), the Trilateral Commission, the Illuminati, and other groups may be included in the conspiracy, in more or less dominant roles. Some theorists say a secret annual conference of the Bilderberg Group plans world events to establish the New World Order. Conspiracy theorists may explicitly disavow and denounce anti-semitism, or may place "the Jews" at the center of the conspiracy. Religious eschatology, often featuring the anti-Christ, is central to some theories, and irrelevant to others.

While traditionally more common among the far right, NWO conspiracy theory may be presented by any who fear the loss of their ideological freedom and favorite policies, conservatives and Liberals alike. A number of those on the fringes of both right and left believe that the left/right paradigm is a subversive creation of an NWO-controlled media, intended as disinformation to divert people from their common enemy. This has been called "Fusion Paranoia" by Michael Kelly.

[edit]
Annuit Cœptis Novus Ordo Seclorum
Some of those who believe that the Freemasons are conspiring to control the world claim[16] that the motto is inspired by Freemasonry, and is one of the clues to the True Masters of the World. By circumscribing the 6 pointed Star of David over the pyramid, 5 of the 6 apices (the 6th being the 'All-seeing eye'), point near letters spelling S-M-O-N-A, which can be rearranged to spell Mason (also monas and moans, out of 120 combinations of letters). As any American dollar bill will show, the directions are not exact, and four of the apices point to empty space; the letters are at the ends of the nearest words.

The advocates of the theory also cite the 13 steps to ascend the pyramid, and the 72 visible blocks on the front. More conventional thinkers regard the thirteen steps as referring to the thirteen colonies.[17] If the blocks are correctly counted and their number intended, 72 has other mystical meanings: it was sacred to the Egyptians, as Plutarch says; and both Jews and Christians use it as the number of nations on the Earth.


New World Order - Wikipedia.

Feel free to include your comments on the NWO's connection to 9/11 and the Bush administration.
 
You're anti-Bush for a reason. Yet you defended the Guantanamo camp in your previous posts. Its through usage of their "powers" and military worldwide that they are working through to making this New World Order plan succeed. We give in when we ignore the signs and carry on.
 
In the 9/11 thread KimAZ said:

I don't exactly call myself a hardline Republican. But I know that this war is necessary, that we have to defeat this enemy. They are evil incarnate. And when good people stand by and do nothing, they are no better.

Have you really defeated the enemy? I agree that America should be safe from harm and all, but has any of that really changed? Its funny you mentioned Pearl Harbor too, because similar to 9/11, both US presidents had known the incident would occur prior to the dates they happened. The New World Order is set to rid the world of more than half its population, they want half a billion people on planet Earth. ONLY. With the wars they wage around the world and the hundreds of HUman Rights violations they have committed, they are beginning to cut down the population. 3 years in Iraq and they haven't done a single good thing for the Iraqi people, they've done nothing but kill civilians. What they did in Palestine was similar, they had the Palestinian people go for "democratic" elections, adn when the people decided they wanted Hamas in their government, USA and israel decided to pressure Hamas into leaving by cutting all aid to them! Democracy my a$$, people. Through starvation and false promises, and the stupidity of the foreign nations that trust them, they are able to punish the world for crimes that haven't yet been committed, or if committed, is to be blamed on these leaders themselves.
 
Roka4csi said: You're anti-Bush for a reason. Yet you defended the Guantanamo camp in your previous posts. Its through usage of their "powers" and military worldwide that they are working through to making this New World Order plan succeed. We give in when we ignore the signs and carry on.
Mass-wars in order to limit the world population? That sounds x-tremly insane.

I´m for Guantanamo, because I´d arrest terrorists there. I´d neither torture them nor deny them fair jurisdiction.
I´d arrest them there as you arrest someone untill she/he dies.

Bush blames Iraqu or Iran to built A-bombs. He already has them. May I tell you something? Nowadays at least every second state has nuclear weapons. So why doesn´t Bush point at the whole damn planet then???? :eek:

About terrorism: Terrorists will never fear war. If we want or not.
 
Insane? I wasn't expecting you to say its wonderful either, but look at all the signs. These leaders dedicate their lives to making money and if that means killing people, I doubt they'll be pulling back. israel has (atleast) 300 nuclear weapons, has anyone thought of attacking them?

And what happens at Guantanamo is not mere arrest, it is torture. I'm all for arresting terrorists as long as the reasons for their abduction go further than "his name's MOhammad".
 
You want to say political leaders are keen on killing? Dictators maybe. But this makes us start deciding. The result is two donkeys calling each other dictators.

The best thing would be, if we all lay down or weapons simultaniously. 3, 2, 1 "everybody drops his weapon". I think you know what I mean.

I´m afraid I didn´t speak clearly. So, my mistake. :eek: I´m against torture in Guantanamo.

I´d change Guantanamo into an ordinary jail.
 
Then why not just open an ordinary jail, you were specific and said that you liked the idea of Guantanamo, but anyway. Moving on.
Bush isn't a dictator, but can you deny that he's a killer? He kills in the name of "democracy", so you can't say its only dictators that kill.
Weapons won't be given up, because you can't really say your country is 100% safe these days. And if you're constantly thinking that you may at any given moment be under attack by your enemy, you need to have weapons to protect your country. So we definetely won't be ridding the world of weaponry :lol:. But it would help to understand the notions of the people behind the weapons.
 
You allow me cutting this to pieces? ;)

Roka4csi said: Then why not just open an ordinary jail, you were specific and said that you liked the idea of Guantanamo, but anyway.
The idea of Guantanamo as terrorists-prison. An ordinary jail would be in city-areas.
1. Do you like terrorists within your city?
2. In Guantanamo you can keep terrorists under control better. In case of an outbreak, downtown they can choose their hostages. :D

Roka4csi said: Bush isn't a dictator, but can you deny that he's a killer? He kills in the name of "democracy", so you can't say its only dictators that kill.
Sure - everybody killing "in the name of anything" is a murderer.

Roka4csi said: Weapons won't be given up, because you can't really say your country is 100% safe these days. And if you're constantly thinking that you may at any given moment be under attack by your enemy, you need to have weapons to protect your country. (...)

Noone has a right to feel threatened, if states disarm at the same time.
I think the problem´s rather: No nation dares disarming first. :(
 
I think the problem with US is. They've never thought, especially when Soviet Union collapsed, that someone would attack the great and mighty USA. And then what? Bush and US administration spends more and more money to wars and weapons and miliary stuff with what costs? They have sucky social security, lots of people hardly having money to buy their daily food and other stuff.

Yet US has money to attack several countries, where it brings more poverty, dead civilians and lousy circumstances to live.

As Roka said, giving Palestine "democratic" election and when those happen and Hamas got the lead, they go out screaming that it wasn't democracy!

I don't think a country, where elections don't seem very "democratic" can demand that in other countries. I always thought democracy is voice of people,people who vote. Al Gore got over 500,000 votes more than Bush. Still Bush was elected. DOes that sound democratic? No it doesn't. I can't believe country such as USA is coming so behind in voting system. Or in all social security sections.

Human rights? US cares about those? If they did, CIA wouldn't have secret prisons or places such as Guantanamo. I can't believe US soldiers say GOd bless us and God bless America. And there they rape and humiliate prisoners and insult their religion. What if we started to do the same to them? HUman rights... in Saudi-Arabia 20 girls burnt in their school because firemen couldn't go to rescue since they weren't wearing those... clothes what women has to wear in islamic country (Roka can tell what those are). How many times you've heard US judging Saudi-Arabia about human rights? Never. Because they are friends. Same with Israel.They tell that Palestine are suicide bombers and all but are the Israelians who've killed Palestine people in Gaza and such areas, any better? No they are not.They are on the same line.

And I'm a christian by the way.

US is judging also North Korea but why they don't attack there? One word: China.
Why so keen on attacking countries in Middle East? One word: oil.

I've always wondered how Bush insisted that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction when he wanted to go to war. We all know US provided lots and lots of weapons to Iraq and Hussein when they were in war against Iran. So who knows what US gave to Iraq and that's how they wanted to go there.To find out what Iraq has developed from the weapons that US gave them back then.

Talebans. Who gave weapons to them when they were fighting against Soviet Union? USA. Who trained taleban soldiers in the 80s? USA.

So it all starts to feel like USA is trying to clean up their own mess what they created during the end of Cold War.

Or US has to prove its status since time of western culture being the leading culture is going to end. China/India, mostly whole Asia will be "the most important" place in the next few decades. Their culture will become the leading culture and we in "western" countries have to follow. (Read Huntington: Clash of Civilizations)

Back in old days Catholic church was leading the world. It was based on fear. US uses the same way now. It's pretty fregging effective.

Ah... my mind is going blank :lol:

I don't know did I make any sense.
 
Yes actually you made a whole lot of sense :lol: Lets go over some things. It was obvious, for one, that the US was aware that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction and was not a potential threat to America since 1994 when the UN declared that after extensive research, Iraq posed no threat to the US and held no WMD. Okay, that point made, what reason did Bush have for going into the war with Iraq? In many news coverages Bush made speeches saying that Saddam has definetely aided the Taliban, and that he is SURE that he's got WMD. "He's got 'em"... that's all you got out of Bush, that he's sure Saddam has "got em". Well, 3 yrs into the war and what has he found? He's got nothing.
So the attack on Iraq, if it wasn't a threat to the US, would have been backed up by some Republicans as a way to bring "democracy to the Middle East." Question: Who the hell told anyone that the Middle East was craving their democracy? Don't get me wrong, but after the war in Lebanon, I'd much rather live in tyranny than go through democracy again, because Middle Easterners are murdered in the name of democracy! So if those 2 arent the reasons for Bush's attack on Iraq, its got to be the oil, as DaWacko said. Because oil brings money, and there was no way that Iraq would have partnered with US the way that Saudi did, so they attacked it to get the oil by force, if not through becoming allies.
And you really have to ask yourself, if Bush said these guys are terrorists... bin laden (more of a sheep than a terrorist if you ask me), and Saddam, who may have been crap to his people, but trust me, Iraqis are seeing alot more pain and terror from the US troops than they ever saw from their dictator leader... so if these guys were terrorists and Bush was out to kill them, why did his support them and train them to begin with. How do you make a terrorist and then scream "i've created a monster!" and try to fix things up?
See, its all about the money. If it was about protecting the American people why didn't he do that on August 6,2001 when he read the Presidential Daily Briefing that stated that binLaden was going to attack the US? Could he not have prevented the attacks?
And Detective_burns, no I don't want terrorists running around my country, but until you can prove that EVERY SINGLE PRISONER IN GUANTANAMO IS GUILTY, you've got nothign but accusations, and you cannot imprison people based on mere accusations! Those people are humiliated! I'm all for capital punishment, kill them... but you don't make people suffer liek that and humiliate them and rape them. I think the American troops have alot more mental and sexual issues to deal with than they do terrorism. They're sick people, they're not protecting you, otherwise they'd be at home protecting people from the hundreds of rapes and crimes and murders that occur WITHIN the US. I think you've all got enough on your hands to deal with at home than you do outside, and if the US would stop interfering with other nations, they would never be threatened to begin with. They bring terrorism to themselves and then "fight it off". Sickening.
 
Roka4CSI, what do you mean when you say they bring terrorism to themselves? Could you please explain this?


DaWacko said: (...) Yet US has money to attack several countries, where it brings more poverty, dead civilians and lousy circumstances to live.[/b]
Very good statement. Mind me thinking this on? I watched a TV-report about fighter-carrier-ships.

Give it one try and guess the average age onboard. What you think?
It´s 18 / 19.

Tell this young adults they kill people. know what? They don´t give a damn Fffffffff*!
They´re airborne under the flag of "preventive attacks".


Bush is their God



Bush invades other countries "in the name of democracy". That really sucks. Agree with you two at that point.

Maybe Bush´s just cleaning up the mess of his pre-succsessors. In this case dead civilians would be nothin´ than collateral damage.

Let Bush make war for money-reasons. Then I´m sure he´ll never get enough.

Remember something? America´s the only nation ever used A-bombs in a war - even twice.
And Bush talks about an "axis of evil". What an impudence!

Talking about Guantanamo. Torture in Guantanamo has to stop. No question.
Accusations have to be treated really careful. I´m far away from questioning this. If this was your impression, I´m sorry for the missunderstanding.
 
Detective, when America supports these so-called "terrorists" with money and supplies and training, and these terrorists then turn against America for what ever reasons possible, it is America's fault for making them that strong in the first place. Plus - America's support for israel is very much involved in how many times America gets attacked. America is known for its involvement in countries and making things 1000 times worse than they were before. Look at Lebanon for example, when Prime Minister Hariri was assassinated last year America came in and began its pressure on the Lebanese government to follow through with resolution 1559... It was not America's problem to begin with! And when they got involved it messed up Lebanon's interior dramatically. America came in trying to begin a civil war among the Lebanese people... when you do things like that to a country, the world tends to stop believing that you're trying to 'help'. And when all these "Muslim terrorists" are attacking Americans or demanding that israel is erased off the map, it is out of the pain they suffer from israel and America's support of it. My point is, America makes mistakes and ends up paying when innocent American and Arab civilians are killed for the sake of "democracy." Its a bunch of bullcrap that they sell to the media and people eat it up like ignorant fools that have never read a newspaper other than the one they're braindrenched with!
 
See, there's the real problem: Ignorance. The American government perpetuates a state of ignorance by not bolstering the country where it needs it the most: education. With a better educated populace, we'd most likely see the country being run a little differently. With an educated voter, ballots would be cast differently- candidates might actually be chosen by virtue of a sound platform and not based on positive/negative electioneering practices.

Unfortunately, to more easily influence your people, you usually need to keep them dumbed down.
 
Of course it´s Americas fault. But Bush does not move to war. Presidents don´t throw bombs. That´s what they have armies for.
US soldiers follow Bush blindly. :(
 
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