Is Lindsay a Mary Sue character?

[Top41]

I will admit that I shamelessly stole the idea for this topic from a brilliant LJ post I came across, but after reading it, it was too good not to bring up here. Let's try to keep this one on topic: it isn't about whether Lindsay should stay or go, or whether Anna Belknap is a brilliant or terrible actress or even whether you like Lindsay or not. The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether or not Lindsay fits the definition of what a Mary Sue character is. If you think so, say why; if you don't think so, say why.

From the Wikipedia Definition of a Mary Sue:

Mary Sue is a pejorative term, sometimes simply shortened to Sue, used to describe or criticize a fictional character that exhibits some or most fan fiction clichés, making the character itself something of a cliché.

Obviously Lindsay isn't a fan fiction character, so here's the definition of a "Canon-Sue":

Canon-Sue (in original source)
A "canon Sue" may also refer to a character whose canon portrayal resembles a Mary Sue, rather than a character who has been altered in fanfiction. Typically, this refers to a character accused of being overly idealized or having other traits of traditional fanfiction Mary Sues, such as being 'special' by having a gratuitously tragic past, unrealistic skills, or a seeming inability for the character to do wrong. Characters such as Wesley Crusher[4] and Amanda Rogers[4] in Star Trek: The Next Generation have been criticized for being Mary Sue (or perhaps a Marty Stu in the former case) by fans of the series. In another, non-Star Trek example, the character Elminster in the
Forgotten Realms is often similarly criticised for being a Mary Sue.

From that, I can draw:

such as being 'special' by having a gratuitously tragic past--check! Four dead friends, only living witness, she's so haunted by it.

unrealistic skills--sort of...she does make these amazing connections/observations, but then so do all of the CSIs at some point.

or a seeming inability for the character to do wrong--check! Did anyone ever really take her to task for her behavior at crime scenes? Nope. Stella was the only one who said anything, and then, when Lindsay threw a fit, she backed off right away. And Danny has been her doormat the entire season.

There's a lot more in Wikipedia, but I thought the LJ author broke it down really well into five categories:

1. She has random emo moments that merely serve to draw attention to her. "All Access," "Stealing Home," "Oedipus Hex," "Silent Night" ...need I say more?

2. Everybody on the cast 'likes' her. With the exception of Flack, who seems pretty chilly towards her, everyone else seems to love her.

3. She has a tragic past that completely shaped her whole character ... and it's always shoved in your face when it's already ground into your brain. Oh yes. That pretty much defines Lindsay this season, and even last season, starting in "Manhattan Manhunt." We can't ever forget her tragic past!

4. She's a tabula rasa character so fangirls can insert themselves in her personality ... One constant complaint has been how inconsistent Lindsay's character has been. One minute she's light and happy, the next super-smart genius girl, the next angsty drama girl, the next bitchy at-the-end-of-my-rope girl. Does she have a personality, or just a bunch of cliched attributes?

5. Because she's getting the popular man on the show. Her relationship with Danny has been the focal point of this season outside of the mishandled tragic past, and really, was the primary character development she had last season, between her trying to one up him in "Stuck on You" and eating bugs with him in "Fare Game."

So...what say you? Based on the definition of a Mary Sue, is she or isn't she one? And what could be done to make her less of one?

 

[poison girl]

Due that definition, Lindsay is a complete Mary Sue.

At the beginning of the second season, she wasn't so dramatical or emotional wreak, it's in this season where that character has degenerated to someone who anyone can stand.

i liked her before, she was new air for the show, some outsider who has to win his right to be one more of the team, but latelly, I really can't stand her.

I thin the main problem was anna's pregnancy, that made the scripter to rush things to justify her outside the field and a few episodes, and, as lot of us have been telling in another treads, scripters are not doing very good with the characters.

Maybe now that her past is known by everyone, that she seems to have let it all out, and the actress can go back to work, things start to mend and we can see the Lindsay from the last season.

Everything is in the hands of TPTB and the scripters.

 

[Faylinn]

I definitely think that Lindsay is a Mary-Sue type of character.

unrealistic skills

Yeah, like the fact that we're supposed to believe she's in her mid-twenties, given her years as a CSI and the training she would have had to get beforehand?

She's a tabula rasa character so fangirls can insert themselves in her personality

Oh, how very true. So much of the appeal of the character seems to be all about the fans inserting themselves in her place, particularly when it comes to:

Because she's getting the popular man on the show

Even when Lindsay herself was getting development, and her 'dark secret' was revealed, it all seemed to take a backseat to the D/L mess. Lindsay is brave and goes into a hostage situation in "Not What it Looks Like," which ties in to her past--but the episode ends with the sooper-speshul 'hug' and that seemed to be far more discussion-worthy than anything about Lindsay individually. Then there's "Sleight Out of Hand," which should have been all about Lindsay--giving the character development and revealing her backstory. Instead, it was as though the scenes paled in comparison to the crap at the end with her suddenly over her issues and leaning in to kiss Danny. It wasn't logical, and it took away from the character's moment. *shrug*

 

[xfcanadian]

Yeah, like the fact that we're supposed to believe she's in her mid-twenties, given her years as a CSI and the training she would have had to get beforehand?

I would say that Hawkes is more unrealistic for this category, since he is WAY to young to be a forensic pathologist...

 

[chaostheory08]

Geez, I never thought about that haha.

Anyway, reading this -- yeah, I think she's pretty Mary-Sue. Kind of like, she's the 'ideal girl' that the writers want to be. Or in their eyes, she's the 'perfect, can do no wrong' kind of character.

And like in all Mary-Sues, you can have a complete story without them.

 

[everclaire]

Wow, I'm really surprised no-one has brought up before.

I first started thinking how mary-sue-y she was when she ate those insects that Danny brought her at the lab and bet over with Mac. Then I looked back on her character.

Major childhood trauma, which only serves for the popular guy to muster protective feeling from the popular guy and further their relationship, the writers might as well have had her raped or suffer at the hands of an abusive father or somthing.

Never afraid to 'muck in' (taking the sample from the pic, wanting to do generally gross stuff so she can prove she's a hardcore country girl)

Romance with the most popular guy, everyone loves her (except maybe flack, he's such a legend).

She's no replacement for our Aiden. DnA was such a better ship, but hey, I'll take what I can get.

 

[MichelleK]

Yeah I think she is pretty much a Mary-Sue character too.
On paper the writers have a perfect character. Suffered asa child, comes to the big city, not afraid to try and participate anything, very gung-ho and catches the eye of the show's sex god.
In real life it's frightening how wrong it's all gone.

 

[everclaire]

I think they tried to give Lindsay a little injection of Aiden's tough-assed bitchiness, but combined with her whingeyness, Lindsay's bad-assed moments just seem so attention-seeky and out of character.

Believe it or not, I don't actually hate Lindsay.


Top, do you have a link to the LJ post? I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[Top41]

^I think I should leave that to the LJ author (if she wants to post here).

Faylinn said:

Because she's getting the popular man on the show

Even when Lindsay herself was getting development, and her 'dark secret' was revealed, it all seemed to take a backseat to the D/L mess. Lindsay is brave and goes into a hostage situation in "Not What it Looks Like," which ties in to her past--but the episode ends with the sooper-speshul 'hug' and that seemed to be far more discussion-worthy than anything about Lindsay individually.

That annoyed the hell out of me when that episode aired. I was actually on board with Lindsay for that episode--she was trying to good but not be wonder woman, and then, well, the ending made it clear what the focus was going to be. There's little to Lindsay outside of Danny, ultimately.

Then there's "Sleight Out of Hand," which should have been all about Lindsay--giving the character development and revealing her backstory. Instead, it was as though the scenes paled in comparison to the crap at the end with her suddenly over her issues and leaning in to kiss Danny. It wasn't logical, and it took away from the character's moment. *shrug*

Yep, another example of that. Anytime there's something big for Lindsay, Danny is right there. Her leaving to go home for the trial was more about "OMG! Would she say goodbye to Danny...or not?" rather than anything about her and her emotional struggle. We saw no evidence of that emotional struggle at any place in that episode.

xfcanadian said:

Yeah, like the fact that we're supposed to believe she's in her mid-twenties, given her years as a CSI and the training she would have had to get beforehand?

I would say that Hawkes is more unrealistic for this category, since he is WAY to young to be a forensic pathologist...

Isn't Hawkes in his 30s? How would that make him too young to be a forensic pathologist?

If the writers had matched up Lindsay's age with Anna's actual age it would have been more believable. I guess Lindsay is supposed to be 28.

 

[midnight_tiptoes]

I don't think Lindsay's that much of a Mary Sue. Not comparatively. I mean, is there a bigger Gary Stu than Mac? I don't think so, and yet we don't bitch about him endlessly.

If you put Lindsay through a Mary Sue litmus test, you don't get that high of a reading. She's not gorgeous, she's not tall, she's not skinny, she doesn't have enviable hair (physically, Stella is a bigger Mary Sue than Lindsay). She doesn't have the magnificent colored eyes, the perfect skin. She doesn't follow fashion trends, she doesn't dress punk or surfer or totally awesome. Neither does she dress sexy. Aesthetically, Lindsay's just your typical American woman. That right there takes at least 20 Mary Sue points off of her.

She doesn't have an awesome totally spunky (and stupid) name like Sky or Raine or Persephone or Makayla or Maddison or Bob. She doesn't have a magnificent last name, either. Lindsay and Monroe are very common names, neither of them are special or cool. Now Kaile - oh, God, typical Mary Sue name. Bonasera. Mac. Calleigh. Alexx. Aiden (this one I loathe with the fire of a thousand Britney Spears breakdowns).

Personality wise, I don't get that big of a Mary Sue vibe, either. Mary Sues are always either practically perfect in every way - knows everything about sports, is funny, can relate to guys, eats everything but never gains weight, charms guys with her belching and sports trivia, etc. Though Lindsay slammed into some guy in the first episode and that can be seen as 'omg totaly awzum', well, to me it was no different than Stella storming into Mac's office with a big ass gun, all Rambo and shit and yielding her Tits of Justice to boot. Though Lindsay knows about cows and farming and shit, that, to me is a BILLION times more realistic than Mac knowing every single thing about everything that's ever been in this world, including a myriad of foreign languages. It's not a Lindsay thing, it's just crappy writing.

The other thing I can think of is her eating those bugs, but everyone was disgusted by it. No one thought it was cool (except maybe Danny).

The other type of Mary Sues are the super depressive Mary Sues, who are always crying or in need to be rescued, blah blah blah 'these wounds won't seem to heal, this pain is just too real'. You know, cutter Mary Sues. As far as I've seen, Lindsay doesn't spend the majority of her time listening to Evanescence and planning to kill herself.

Mary Sues have two or more guys trailing behind her wherever they go. As far as we've seen, Danny is the only guy who's attracted to her. Mary Sues, despite their "tomboyishness", are very sexual. Lindsay's not. Mary Sues are liked by everyone - well, Stella hasn't always been a big Lindsay fan, and according to a lot of posters here, Flack doesn't like her (which I don't see at all, but whatev), so that takes care of that. Hell, Lindsay went off to that trial to face her demons and none of the characters (sans Danny) seemed to care.

History wise. She has a troubled past. So does Stella. So does Danny. She's not scared to try new things. Neither did Aiden. She's tough omg!11 So was Maka. Lindsay had one bad thing happen to her (and she was already an adult, often these Mary Sue tragedies happen during childhood). How many tragic things have happened to Stella? Orphan. That's a HUGE Mary Sue indicative right there. Possibly saw her parents get murdered (though that may have been scratched), God, every fucking Harry Potter Mary Sue saw her parents get murdered. Was almost raped. Huge Mary Sue thing. Was beaten = tragic Mary Sue. Possibly deadly disease from which she's rescued from by her knight in shining armor (Mac), could that BE a bigger Mary Sue thing?

The only differences are that a) Lindsay's past was explored, whereas Stella's hasn't, and b) Lindsay can talk about her past, whereas Stella doesn't. But I really don't see anything wrong with that and I don't think it was extreme. It's not like she kept walking around the lab, proudly telling everyone about her past. Mary Sues are attention whores.

So no, I don't think she is. Nowadays people throw the phrase Mary Sue around so easily, sort of like people who like to use the word 'retarded' to describe stupid situations. If you go by the wiki entry of Mary Sue, pretty much every single character on television is one (there could never be a bigger Gary Stu than House, even using the original Mary Sue litmus test, he tests off the charts). Go find an old Mary Sue litmus test and test Lindsay. I did once and Mac got a bigger reading, and so did Stella, and if I recall correctly, so did Danny.

Lindsay does suffer from some television clichés, most notably 'small town girl in the city', but calling her a Mary Sue's a stretch. There's nothing special about Lindsay, and I've never gotten the feeling that the writers want me to believe that. Only Lindsay haters seem to think she's special or perfect. To be honest, most of the time I don't even notice her, and I'm neither a Lindsay lover nor a Lindsay hater. She's wallpaper to me; wouldn't miss her if she were gone, but I don't see the need to get rid of her, either.

Lindsay's biggest downfall is being Danny's love interest, plain and simple. If she were dating Hawkes, no one would care cause no one worships Hawkes. Funny that more people were pro-Danny/Angell, and to me, Angell exhibited more Mary Sue qualities, or at least had the potential to be a bigger Mary Sue, than Lindsay. She was the tall, skinny, gorgeous super model cop with the fantastic mane who was funny and tomboy-ish and loved by everyone and could kick ass and had a stupid name that people could use for double entendres (oh, she's such an angel). Give Angell a tragic past, and we could proclaim her queen of Mary Sues. Our Mary Sue Angell, if you will. An Angell who came down from the heavens to wrap Danny tightly in a cocoon of her Angellic wings so he could be together forever with his Angell love. See how annoying that is?

This is longer than The Iliad, what the fuck?!

 

[Top41]

Dude, midnight, that is a book! :lol: Good stuff though.

midnight_tiptoes said:
I don't think Lindsay's that much of a Mary Sue. Not comparatively. I mean, is there a bigger Gary Stu than Mac? I don't think so, and yet we don't bitch about him endlessly.

Eh, Mac's a little too perfect at times, and Always Right, but I think that's more CSI Lead Syndrome. Horatio has a terminal case, and Grissom seems to be suffering at about the same level as Mac, minus the huffiness.

If you put Lindsay through a Mary Sue litmus test, you don't get that high of a reading. She's not gorgeous, she's not tall, she's not skinny, she doesn't have enviable hair (physically, Stella is a bigger Mary Sue than Lindsay). She doesn't have the magnificent colored eyes, the perfect skin. She doesn't follow fashion trends, she doesn't dress punk or surfer or totally awesome. Neither does she dress sexy. Aesthetically, Lindsay's just your typical American woman. That right there takes at least 20 Mary Sue points off of her.

That's true, though she's so plain it seems like they went out of their way to make her Average American Gal--ie, someone any fan could see herself as.

She doesn't have an awesome totally spunky (and stupid) name like Sky or Raine or Persephone or Makayla or Maddison or Bob. She doesn't have a magnificent last name, either. Lindsay and Monroe are very common names, neither of them are special or cool. Now Kaile - oh, God, typical Mary Sue name. Bonasera. Mac. Calleigh. Alexx. Aiden (this one I loathe with the fire of a thousand Britney Spears breakdowns).

Originally the character's name was supposed to be Summer Hamilton and she was going to be blonde with blue eyes. This is much more Mary Sue name-wise, I agree, but as you show above, the CSI shows tend to pick weird names for their characters. Sara Sidle anyone?

Personality wise, I don't get that big of a Mary Sue vibe, either. Mary Sues are always either practically perfect in every way - knows everything about sports, is funny, can relate to guys, eats everything but never gains weight, charms guys with her belching and sports trivia, etc. Though Lindsay slammed into some guy in the first episode and that can be seen as 'omg totaly awzum', well, to me it was no different than Stella storming into Mac's office with a big ass gun, all Rambo and shit and yielding her Tits of Justice to boot. Though Lindsay knows about cows and farming and shit, that, to me is a BILLION times more realistic than Mac knowing every single thing about everything that's ever been in this world, including a myriad of foreign languages. It's not a Lindsay thing, it's just crappy writing.

Let's see...she quotes football stats, she eats bugs with gusto (Danny was the only one who needed to think it was cool anyway ), she used her super-special research skills to uncover Mac's secret Wednesday night hobby, she tackled two guys, she knows about which was the tea pot needs to face to be polite...

To me, "Rambo" Stella was different. She was pissed and making a point. It's not like she's always got a gun out in every episode.

The other type of Mary Sues are the super depressive Mary Sues, who are always crying or in need to be rescued, blah blah blah 'these wounds won't seem to heal, this pain is just too real'. You know, cutter Mary Sues. As far as I've seen, Lindsay doesn't spend the majority of her time listening to Evanescence and planning to kill herself.

No, but she did whine and moan about her "dark secret" at every opportunity. In "Manhattan Manhunt" we get the bloody crime scene comment, in "Stealing Home" it's all OMG this girl's from Montana!, in "Love Run Cold" she can't be with Danny because of the tragedy, in "Oedipus Hex" she can't deal with mothers, in "Silent Night" she's running away from crime scenes and yelling at her boss...I think she's pretty emo/depressive.

Mary Sues have two or more guys trailing behind her wherever they go. As far as we've seen, Danny is the only guy who's attracted to her.

That is true, and I'm surprised but grateful they didn't go that route.

Mary Sues, despite their "tomboyishness", are very sexual. Lindsay's not.

I think that's a issue related to who they cast.

Mary Sues are liked by everyone - well, Stella hasn't always been a big Lindsay fan,

When has Stella not liked her? She was friendly and welcoming from day one. She snarked at her when she was sensitive over her own issue in "Open and Shut" but otherwise Stella has been nothing but nice to her, even when Lindsay was a bitch back ("Silent Night").

and according to a lot of posters here, Flack doesn't like her (which I don't see at all, but whatev), so that takes care of that. Hell, Lindsay went off to that trial to face her demons and none of the characters (sans Danny) seemed to care.

True, though the focal point with her is always Danny, so did anyone else caring or not matter?

History wise. She has a troubled past. So does Stella. So does Danny.

Yeah, but we're not reminded of their troubled pasts every other episode. Lindsay could barely do her job this season because her past was such a huge issue. Danny and Stella have let their pasts effect their job in one ep each ("The Dove Commission" and "Open and Shut" respectively) and pulled it together enough to do their job in the end (which Lindsay did in one case "Oedipus" but not the other "Silent Night").

She's not scared to try new things. Neither did Aiden. She's tough omg!11 So was Maka. Lindsay had one bad thing happen to her (and she was already an adult, often these Mary Sue tragedies happen during childhood). How many tragic things have happened to Stella? Orphan. That's a HUGE Mary Sue indicative right there. Possibly saw her parents get murdered (though that may have been scratched), God, every fucking Harry Potter Mary Sue saw her parents get murdered.

Yeah, but we've heard zilch about her being an orphan save for one ep in the first season. And I think the parents thing was changed.

Was almost raped. Huge Mary Sue thing. Was beaten = tragic Mary Sue. Possibly deadly disease from which she's rescued from by her knight in shining armor (Mac), could that BE a bigger Mary Sue thing?

Yeah, and I think both of those storylines pretty much blow. I'm definitely with you there.

The only differences are that a) Lindsay's past was explored, whereas Stella's hasn't, and b) Lindsay can talk about her past, whereas Stella doesn't. But I really don't see anything wrong with that and I don't think it was extreme. It's not like she kept walking around the lab, proudly telling everyone about her past. Mary Sues are attention whores.

I thought she was pretty attention whory in "Manhattan Manhunt" and "Silent Night."

So no, I don't think she is. Nowadays people throw the phrase Mary Sue around so easily, sort of like people who like to use the word 'retarded' to describe stupid situations. If you go by the wiki entry of Mary Sue, pretty much every single character on television is one (there could never be a bigger Gary Stu than House, even using the original Mary Sue litmus test, he tests off the charts). Go find an old Mary Sue litmus test and test Lindsay. I did once and Mac got a bigger reading, and so did Stella, and if I recall correctly, so did Danny.

House is a well-rounded character though. So are Mac (especially this season), Stella and Danny.

Lindsay does suffer from some television clichés, most notably 'small town girl in the city', but calling her a Mary Sue's a stretch. There's nothing special about Lindsay, and I've never gotten the feeling that the writers want me to believe that. Only Lindsay haters seem to think she's special or perfect. To be honest, most of the time I don't even notice her, and I'm neither a Lindsay lover nor a Lindsay hater. She's wallpaper to me; wouldn't miss her if she were gone, but I don't see the need to get rid of her, either.

I agree, when she's not pitching a fit or showing off, she's pretty bland.

Lindsay's biggest downfall is being Danny's love interest, plain and simple. If she were dating Hawkes, no one would care cause no one worships Hawkes.

Danny does have something to do with it--getting the most popular guy is a Mary Sue-ism after all. But would she be more tolerable as Hawkes' love interest? Doubtful. The fact that she came in to be anyone's love interest at all is kind of lame, period.

Funny that more people were pro-Danny/Angell, and to me, Angell exhibited more Mary Sue qualities, or at least had the potential to be a bigger Mary Sue, than Lindsay. She was the tall, skinny, gorgeous super model cop with the fantastic mane who was funny and tomboy-ish and loved by everyone and could kick ass and had a stupid name that people could use for double entendres (oh, she's such an angel). Give Angell a tragic past, and we could proclaim her queen of Mary Sues. Our Mary Sue Angell, if you will. An Angell who came down from the heavens to wrap Danny tightly in a cocoon of her Angellic wings so he could be together forever with his Angell love. See how annoying that is?

I agree, the name Angell is kinda eh. But the character seemed to have promise. She didn't walk in being all knowing and unphased by anything. She was definitely thrown by the mummy. Lindsay would have gotten out a fork and started eating the mummy. :lol:

This is longer than The Iliad, what the fuck?!

Heh, not until you start listing all the ships that went into battle.

 

[everclaire]

Nice essay midnight! My turn. J

Lindsay had one bad thing happen to her (and she was already an adult, often these Mary Sue tragedies happen during childhood).

This ‘incident’ DID happen during her childhood (she was meant to be what, fourteen?), and she CONSTANTLY references it ‘I can’t deal with mothers etc etc,’ ‘(I’ve seen blood) worse than this,’

Has your character otherwise lost...
Close friend?

Four of them. Next.

If female, does your character ever have to prove that she's just as good as the guys?

Eating bugs (when no-one else would), football scores, finishing examining evidence band when Danny has barely glanced at it in the same amount of time (‘Youngblood‘) and so on.

The other type of Mary Sues are the super depressive Mary Sues, who are always crying or in need to be rescued, blah blah blah 'these wounds won't seem to heal, this pain is just too real'. You know, cutter Mary Sues. As far as I've seen, Lindsay doesn't spend the majority of her time listening to Evanescence and planning to kill herself.

Maybe the main reason for this is because CSI isn’t written by fifteen-year-old fan girls Fair enough, she may be a little more complex and a great deal more interestingly written than the typical Mary-Sue of FanFiction.net, but it doesn’t poopoo the theory.

(stella) Was almost raped. Huge Mary Sue thing. Was beaten = tragic Mary Sue. Possibly deadly disease from which she's rescued from by her knight in shining armor (Mac), could that BE a bigger Mary Sue thing?

Agreed. This was a bit Sue-y. (Though to be properly Suelike she would have been raped. Then try to kill herself. Then be beaten up by her dad who then died. Lol.) However, Lindsay’s emo reaction to the whole ordeal was just hilarious. Bitchy!Lindsay in the interrogation room was priceless, and the comforting by Danny after? It’s as though Every. Single. Thing. that happens in the show these days is to further their relationship. And to what end? I know that ratings love it, because we all like a bit of sex in our shows, but surely the enjoyment is in the sexual tension? That’s why we ship. When it’s just thrust in your face like that, where’s the enjoyment? When they get together, or it‘s TOO obvious, it’s no fun anymore.

Lindsay and Monroe are very common names, neither of them are special or cool. Now Kaile - oh, God, typical Mary Sue name. Bonasera. Mac. Calleigh. Alexx. Aiden (this one I loathe with the fire of a thousand Britney Spears breakdowns).

One could probably safely assume with regards to the name ‘Aiden Burn’ that she was intended to be (at least partly) of some Irish descent (though what East Coaster isn’t… ooh controversial). In Ireland, you’d be hard pushed to find a more common name than Aidan/Aiden Burn/Byrne that wasn’t ‘Paddy O’Reilly’ or ‘Seamus Finnegan.’ If you consider the diversity of New York City, and especially its Irish history, this would not be an uncommon name. I mean hey, Carmine Giovinazzo?

Top says:
Sara Sidle anyone?

Hilarious. I thought I was the only one who found that funny, especially when she was Emo!Sara and her name suited her really well… Sarasidle. Literally.

there could never be a bigger Gary Stu than House, even using the original Mary Sue litmus test, he tests off the charts

I don’t think House is in the slightest Gary-Stu like (and I did actually check the litmus test). Firstly, everyone doesn’t love him. He has friends, albeit a very small number who are pretty much constantly frustrated by him. Secondly he doesn’t have a ‘cool name.’ Greg House? Even my name is cooler than that (That says a lot by the way, my name is uncool). He’s a self-righteous arse, who, to be honest, I probably wouldn’t be friends with in real life. And come on, the vicodin? The self-inserted catheters? He’s odd.

And let’s not forget: being ruggedly sexy doesn’t make you a Gary-Stu.

This is longer than The Iliad, what the fuck?!

True, very true

 

[Elsie]

Summer Hamilton? At least that explains to me why my DVD insert lists her as Lindsay Hamilton! :lol:

The list of Mary Sue attributes is interesting, and I think many of them are quite fitting for Lindsay. She has the secret, gets the guy, is clever, and I think she is meant to be the all round pretty, average 'could be anyone', girl next door.

But, as midnight has said, she doesn't fulfil all of the typical Mary Sue criteria. If she did then CSI would be a truly hideous show to watch and not the procedural and somewhat dark drama it is, I'm not sure a complete Mary Sue would ever be a suitable or acceptable character for this type of show.

Yes, all the CSI's on all three shows have Mary Sue or male equivalent characteristics to some extent, with their secrets, tragic pasts, a general lack of living family members, and amazing skills coupled with serious investigative prowess. Wow, those guys are incredible!

And I think that is the point. They all exhibit these characteristics because, if they didn't, the show would be dull and lifeless and full of characters that no one believes in or can relate to. The difference really is that some of the characters have been developed better than others, as more rounded and likeable, their cliched attributes used positively and to the benefit of the overall storyline. Lindsay, on the other hand, tends to exhibit the more annoying Mary Sue characteristics which in my opinion have little place in the kind of programming that CSI should be.

We expect our Mary Sues to be more than just a token love interest, with a poor little tragic past, and I just don't think the character of Lindsay is.

 

[everclaire]

We expect our Mary Sues to be more than just a token love interest, with a poor little tragic past, and I just don't think the character of Lindsay is.

Hear hear.

Dear me, I think you just summed up my entire essay in one line. Maybe I should retake English.

 

[midnight_tiptoes]

(Danny was the only one who needed to think it was cool anyway ),

Why? Danny's not special and he's not the lead, and he's just one of many cast members. I know he's a demigod around here, but his opinion means nothing to me. Is one Danny worth like 40 Stellas or 30 Hawkes or 4 Macs or something? Point still remains - only one character finds her cool or whatever, the others seem to see her as I see her - some random chick from the Midwest.

Let's see...she quotes football stats, she eats bugs with gusto (Danny was the only one who needed to think it was cool anyway ), she used her super-special research skills to uncover Mac's secret Wednesday night hobby, she tackled two guys, she knows about which was the tea pot needs to face to be polite...

Yeah, but for every thing she knows, there are other things she doesn't know that Mac has to teach her. I just don't think she's the genius/know-it-all she's made out to be sometimes. I see her more as a girl who's kinda eager and likes to learn. The girl who probably sat in the first row in class and reminded the teacher to give them homework. Yeah, we all sat in the back and threw paper balls at the back of her head, some of us may have lifted her skirt in front of the boys, but those people exist. Mary Sues have such unbelievably perfect personalities that it's impossible to find people as perfect as them in real life. They overcompensate for the author's insecurities. Lindsay is not the beauty/brains/awesomeness everyone wishes they could be. I think that title would probably go to Stella.

No, but she did whine and moan about her "dark secret" at every opportunity. In "Manhattan Manhunt" we get the bloody crime scene comment, in "Stealing Home" it's all OMG this girl's from Montana!, in "Love Run Cold" she can't be with Danny because of the tragedy, in "Oedipus Hex" she can't deal with mothers, in "Silent Night" she's running away from crime scenes and yelling at her boss...I think she's pretty emo/depressive.

No, this was just preparation for an upcoming storyline. To me, an emo person is a person who's always bitching and moaning and crying and talking about their feelings and shit. Emo people turn everything into a huge deal. They even make happy situations depressive so they can moan about them. A whole year went by without Lindsay ever exhibiting any problems wrt her past. Since she went to Montana and dealt with it, we've seen her very cheerful and happy. Well, normal at least. I don't know, it's kinda like saying Stella is a drama queen because she keeps worrying about her HIV thing. Both characters were/are going through an emotional upheaval, and I really wouldn't expect them to be robotic about it. They were exploring a storyline and it would've been very anti-climactic if Lindsay was just totally fine with it.

How long has it been since Columbine? 8 years? Students still have a hard time dealing with it. A lot of them have emotional problems or deal with PTSD. I don't think of them as emo because they're still dealing with what happened. It was horrific. I don't think I could say I wouldn't lash out every once in a while at a reminder, and I basically don't care about anything of anything of anything. Hell, sometimes I have these nightmares about planes flying into my building, and I wasn't even in NY when 911 happened. You can't expect people to go through an emotional trauma and remain collected at all times. Shit happens. I thought it was fine. Not awesome, but whatever. This show will never be what it used to be.

I thought she was pretty attention whory in "Manhattan ]Manhunt" and "Silent Night."

I don't think so. If Mac hadn't become Exposition Harry in that one episode she went away and if Danny hadn't gone to the trial, we never would've found out what actually happened. All we knew was something bad took place, but she didn't go into detail until Mac and Stella confronted her about it. Until then it was just tiny hints of something, which were necessary for them to tell the upcoming storyline, otherwise it would've come out of left field. But otherwise only three people actually know what happened. An attention whore would have it up in her LiveJournal, in great detail, possibly with pictures, for the whole world to see.

When has Stella not liked her?

Stella snapped at her not too long ago when Lindsay was having Dairy Queen Killer issues. It was just one time, but it broke the Mary Sue rule that they're awesome no matter what. None of the characters seem particularly close to her, save Danny. A Mary Sue is loved and worshiped by all, regardless of what she says/does. Everyone wants to be friends with her. I don't see that happening with Lindsay.

Yeah, but we're not reminded of their troubled pasts every other episode.

That's because their arcs haven't been properly explored. Lindsay's took the bulk of it because the writers decided to have it out in the open and resolved by the time Anna spawned. But again, we had a whole year of Lindsay being normal and she never had issues with it before, and hasn't since she came back from Montana. They were telling a storyline that they felt they needed to rush, and though it may not have been the greatest way to tell it, it's the writers' fault and not the character/actress.

House is a well-rounded character though.

Mary Sues/Gary Stus are very seldom shallow characters. They tend to have histories that would make poor Jesus Christ hand them over his crown of thorns. House and Mac are huge Gary Stus. Grissom not so much, because he lacks that ass kickingness that it takes to be a Gary Stu. But Mac? Oh my God. He's the master of martial arts, can yield a sword like some mo fo, he speaks every language imaginable, he knows everything about everything about everything and he gets to sleep with a young, gorgeous, smart woman with emotional issues. He may be the lead, but it doesn't excuse it.

Danny does have something to do with it--getting the most popular guy is a Mary Sue-ism after all.

It's Mary Sue-ism in the eyes of the people who like the guy she's getting together with, which just proves how subjective Mary Sue-ism has become. But Mary Sue-ism isn't like beauty, it's something you either are or you aren't (well, not us, I mean the characters). Danny is the most popular character HERE, and not every poster worships him. Over at Television Without Pity, the most popular guy is Flack. It varies from place to place. I don't know how Danny fares with the people who don't have internet access. I get the feeling the most popular guy overall is Mac. Does that make Peyton a Mary Sue? She certainly has the awful name to prove for it.

That's not to say Lindsay doesn't have Mary Sue qualities, she does, all CSI characters do, but it has to be the sum of all parts rather than a few quirks here and there. When you pick apart every single aspect of her, Lindsay lacks most of the Mary Sue qualities. Like they would say on ER, she's not that pretty or special.

The saddest part is, I'm supposed to be on vacation, but my brother is working and has left me home. All I want is to go to the beach, goddamn it. Dude, I may go to Miami tomorrow! If I run into David Caruso I'm totally gonna throw an ice cream cone at him.