midnight_tiptoes said:
(Danny was the only one who needed to think it was cool anyway ),
Why? Danny's not special and he's not the lead, and he's just one of many cast members. I know he's a demigod around here, but his opinion means nothing to me. Is one Danny worth like 40 Stellas or 30 Hawkes or 4 Macs or something? Point still remains - only one character finds her cool or whatever, the others seem to see her as I see her - some random chick from the Midwest.
No, Danny's not the lead, but he is the one she's supposed to be impressing since he was intended to fall for her. So that's why his opinion is the only one that matters because OMG it's true love! And I would also say with that scene, they were all gathered around paying attention to her eating the bugs. Flack was the only one visibly grossed out.
Yeah, but for every thing she knows, there are other things she doesn't know that Mac has to teach her.
Well, yeah, Mac being the lead is always going to trump Girl Wonder.
I just don't think she's the genius/know-it-all she's made out to be sometimes. I see her more as a girl who's kinda eager and likes to learn. The girl who probably sat in the first row in class and reminded the teacher to give them homework. Yeah, we all sat in the back and threw paper balls at the back of her head, some of us may have lifted her skirt in front of the boys, but those people exist.
Yeah, I agree, she was the girl at the front of the class we all made fun of, but she's still a know it all.
Fay posted some interesting points about that in another thread, which I'll repost here because they were excellent illustrations:
Faylinn said:
"Super Men" was on Spike last night, and I noticed something when I was watching it--Danny was totally useless on that case. Lindsay figured out the phone number written on Tyrone's chest (although hello, I don't think Danny and Pino are too clueless, they could have figured it out, but then Lindsay wouldn't have been the sooper speshul one
), she realized that the room service cart was missing, she found the pump itself...Why was Danny there, exactly? Oh, he had to say the line about having to ask her to marry him.
I also re-watched "People With Money" and that scene with Lindsay and the tie experiment griped my ass for some reason. It was like Mac and Stella were just so
confused when she said that the woman was innocent, even though they were the ones who had told her not to make assumptions. Then she said she'd 'followed the evidence,' and Mac just looked so f**king lost. Oh God, I'm so glad that Lindsay was there, otherwise Mac might not be able to tie his own shoes.
Sorry, it might be over-reacting, but it annoys the shite out of me. They are all capable, intelligent CSIs, and they shouldn't have to make others look less-so in order to have Lindsay look better by contrast.
It's scenes like that where Lindsay is particularly Mary Sue-ish. She also was right, at least partially, with her theory in "Cool Hunter" which came way out of left field.
Mary Sues have such unbelievably perfect personalities that it's impossible to find people as perfect as them in real life. They overcompensate for the author's insecurities. Lindsay is not the beauty/brains/awesomeness everyone wishes they could be. I think that title would probably go to Stella.
No, I agree. But I think she's the somewhat average girl that the average viewer is able to relate to. Let's face it, not many people will be Stella. But I've seen countless posts from people saying they relate to Lindsay, or she reminds them of themselves. I think she's a proxy for the average viewer. I think the show came across as "too New York" the first season and the producers felt the need to drop in someone who they felt the rest of the country would relate to. Enter Mary Sue Monroe (or Canon Sue).
No, this was just preparation for an upcoming storyline. To me, an emo person is a person who's always bitching and moaning and crying and talking about their feelings and shit. Emo people turn everything into a huge deal. They even make happy situations depressive so they can moan about them.
Yeah, but it was a lot of prep, and she seemed to have a problem in quite a few instances. There aren't many happy occasions on CSI shows--they do deal with death--but Lindsay underwent a personality change at the end of second season and seemed to have issues with a lot of things. (Live or Let Die, All Access, Stealing Home, etc.)
A whole year went by without Lindsay ever exhibiting any problems wrt her past.
She pretty much became Issue Girl at the end of second season. It was an abrupt change, too.
Since she went to Montana and dealt with it, we've seen her very cheerful and happy.
Which isn't realistic either. You go to this trial for a guy who killed all your friends, have to testify facing him, have to point him out, and then suddenly as soon as the verdict is read, you're fine? Oh, wait, I'm forgetting the hot guy waiting in the wings. I guess we're supposed to think Danny is enough to make anyone fine, no matter what the issue.
Well, normal at least. I don't know, it's kinda like saying Stella is a drama queen because she keeps worrying about her HIV thing. Both characters were/are going through an emotional upheaval, and I really wouldn't expect them to be robotic about it. They were exploring a storyline and it would've been very anti-climactic if Lindsay was just totally fine with it.
Except she was. There was no emotion when she told Mac she was leaving for the trial in "The Lying Game" and then as soon as the trial is over, poof! she's fine and ready to make out with Danny.
How long has it been since Columbine? 8 years? Students still have a hard time dealing with it. A lot of them have emotional problems or deal with PTSD. I don't think of them as emo because they're still dealing with what happened. It was horrific. I don't think I could say I wouldn't lash out every once in a while at a reminder, and I basically don't care about anything of anything of anything. Hell, sometimes I have these nightmares about planes flying into my building, and I wasn't even in NY when 911 happened. You can't expect people to go through an emotional trauma and remain collected at all times. Shit happens. I thought it was fine. Not awesome, but whatever. This show will never be what it used to be.
Not saying she should be fine with it, but it came up in like half a dozen episodes, maybe more. That's more outbursts than Danny, the resident Drama Queen, has.
I don't think so. If Mac hadn't become Exposition Harry in that one episode she went away and if Danny hadn't gone to the trial, we never would've found out what actually happened. All we knew was something bad took place, but she didn't go into detail until Mac and Stella confronted her about it. Until then it was just tiny hints of something, which were necessary for them to tell the upcoming storyline, otherwise it would've come out of left field. But otherwise only three people actually know what happened. An attention whore would have it up in her LiveJournal, in great detail, possibly with pictures, for the whole world to see.
Yeah, but ugh, that's more annoying than saying what's wrong and moving on. To me, that's plenty dramatic. I hate it when people are like, "I have issues, I'm going to be all dramatic about it, but when you ask, I'm just going to say, 'Leave me alone!'" That's more annoying than if she'd cried into her beer about it in three episodes.
Stella snapped at her not too long ago when Lindsay was having Dairy Queen Killer issues.
Wasn't that after Lindsay told her to leave her alone? That would piss anyone off.
It was just one time, but it broke the Mary Sue rule that they're awesome no matter what. None of the characters seem particularly close to her, save Danny. A Mary Sue is loved and worshiped by all, regardless of what she says/does. Everyone wants to be friends with her. I don't see that happening with Lindsay.
Stella covered for her, though, and basically told her she was there for her. And Mac gave her time off and has been understanding, and didn't ream her out when she came at him with a suspect and no evidence (People with Money). Danny has forgiven her shitty behavior numerous times (All Access, Love Run Cold, Oedipus Hex). Hawkes seems fine with her. So it does seem like everyone in the lab likes her.
That's because their arcs haven't been properly explored. Lindsay's took the bulk of it because the writers decided to have it out in the open and resolved by the time Anna spawned. But again, we had a whole year of Lindsay being normal and she never had issues with it before, and hasn't since she came back from Montana. They were telling a storyline that they felt they needed to rush, and though it may not have been the greatest way to tell it, it's the writers' fault and not the character/actress.
I think there's plenty of blame to go around, but I think she's been emo and moody since the latter third of second season when she inexplicably started having issues.
House is a well-rounded character though.
Mary Sues/Gary Stus are very seldom shallow characters. They tend to have histories that would make poor Jesus Christ hand them over his crown of thorns. House and Mac are huge Gary Stus. Grissom not so much, because he lacks that ass kickingness that it takes to be a Gary Stu. But Mac? Oh my God. He's the master of martial arts, can yield a sword like some mo fo, he speaks every language imaginable, he knows everything about everything about everything and he gets to sleep with a young, gorgeous, smart woman with emotional issues. He may be the lead, but it doesn't excuse it.
OK, I'm understanding this a little better now--yeah, I can see how the know-it-all aspect of House or Mac would make them Gary Stu's, but not everyone likes them (especially not House), neither is hooking up with the most popular chick and neither are emo (OK, House is a bit emo
). So they might be larger-than-life--that seems to me to be because they're the leads and fictional heroes. I think if you broaden the definition that much, every character on TV is a Mary Sue or Gary Stu.
It's Mary Sue-ism in the eyes of the people who like the guy she's getting together with, which just proves how subjective Mary Sue-ism has become. But Mary Sue-ism isn't like beauty, it's something you either are or you aren't (well, not us, I mean the characters). Danny is the most popular character HERE, and not every poster worships him. Over at Television Without Pity, the most popular guy is Flack. It varies from place to place. I don't know how Danny fares with the people who don't have internet access.
Given the TV Guide and People magazine nods, I would say Danny is pretty much given the mantle of the babe of the show. That doesn't mean everyone feels that way about him, or that everyone thinks he's the hottest, but somebody always gets the hottie label and it does seem to be Danny on this show.
I get the feeling the most popular guy overall is Mac. Does that make Peyton a Mary Sue? She certainly has the awful name to prove for it.
I actually think they did a fairly good job of not making Peyton a Mary Sue where she easily could have been. She doesn't seem to have any deep, dark issues, no overly emotional tendancies, and she doesn't have all the answers--she had problems finding the COD on a body in like her second ep.
That's not to say Lindsay doesn't have Mary Sue qualities, she does, all CSI characters do, but it has to be the sum of all parts rather than a few quirks here and there. When you pick apart every single aspect of her, Lindsay lacks most of the Mary Sue qualities. Like they would say on ER, she's not that pretty or special.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I think she's more of your everywoman Mary Sue--one that seems to know it all and yet the audience can still relate to her. But, I agree, she's not the glamazon perfect girl everyone wishes they could be.
The saddest part is, I'm supposed to be on vacation, but my brother is working and has left me home. All I want is to go to the beach, goddamn it. Dude, I may go to Miami tomorrow! If I run into David Caruso I'm totally gonna throw an ice cream cone at him.
So...I wasn't supposed to send Caruso that love letter from you?
Damn.
Well, if he runs up to you and says [hands on hips, then removing one to lower his sunglasses], "Yes, I will run away with you!" do not blame me. It was all
Bitten.
And to add one more thing...
Elsie said:
Yes, all the CSI's on all three shows have Mary Sue or male equivalent characteristics to some extent, with their secrets, tragic pasts, a general lack of living family members, and amazing skills coupled with serious investigative prowess. Wow, those guys are incredible!
Yeah, I mean if you go by the extraordinary-ness, pretty much every character on the CSI shows fits the bill. Almost every character on TV does. But they're more than a bunch of facts and their deep tragic pasts or the sexy piece of ass they're dating. I don't think Lindsay is.
