Horatio Caine CSI, Cop or Vigilante

[mjszud]

Heroic character that we all love but written with flaws, very human ones.Whilst in the position of seeing violence and victims all day/40hrs a week for years on end and that brings out the humanity of Horatio-just not always the clean,perfect version everyone seems to want...

I think it's pretty obvious that not everyone loves Horatio. But I understand and greatly appreciate what you're saying, ladyjr8. You can't see what he's seen and experienced in his life and not eventually find the dark side a possible answer. He is human and far from perfect.

I think the two actions, the man in Rio and the suspect in Miami were simply the writer's way of telling you that Horatio had reached the breaking point.

Although while Horatio is a law enforcement officer in the U.S., I would argue that he was hardly in Rio in a law enforcement capacity on that second trip. He was sent their to be murdered.

Marisol being killed. Finding out about Kyle. Trying to deal with Kyle, Julia and Ron. Being extradited to Brazil, only to find out that Julia set him up and put him in a position to be killed. Left to his own devices to fight his way out and get back home. Then he finds Calleigh has been kidnapped. His life and team more out of control each day. I believe the killing of the guy in Rio was the writer's way of indicating Horatio had reached the end of his rope.

Did they go too far? Possibly. That said, Horatio is certainly not the first, and I doubt he'll be the last, character who represents the moral center in a series who has failed a test or two. I've seen more that one lead character kill someone under questionable circumstances for what they felt was a "just cause". It's called drama.

The writers apparently wanted to take Horatio as dark as they could. They tested the waters and found out that it was unacceptable to the fans and they are slowly rehabilitating the character.

For some fans the writers went too far and Horatio will never regain their respect. A chance the writers took. For others, they understand that he is human, he made some serious but very human mistakes, and they are prepared to give him a chance to make restitution.

In the end I think whether you're prepared to give the character a chance at rehabilitation is directly related to whether you like, or have ever liked, the character.

My profession causes me to interact with a number of law enforcement officers. I can promise you they are completely and totally human. Their intentions are rightous, but they make their share of mistakes because they are human. They are doing the best they can and I've seen them become extremely frustrated trying to deal with man's inhumanity to their fellow man.

I respect and like Horatio. Like anyone who is in my actual life, there are times they do things that I don't like. But it doesn't change my belief in their basic core decency and humanity. I plan on giving Horatio a chance to find his way back. I think he's well on his way there! :thumbsup:


Oh, and one more time. Horatio did not murder Riaz. It was self-defense. It's interesting to me that a lot of people who watched that scene failed to see the knife Riaz had in his hand.

Horatio and Eric went to Rio with extradition papers for Riaz. They did not go there intending to "murder" him. Their intent was to bring him back to the U.S. to stand trial.

Agreed completely, every single word. These are my exact thoughts about Horatio! I don't mind his "dark side" - I don't want to see it worsen, but I'm able to get past what he did as I saw he had reason behind it, & I could see what tptb were doing with it & what they were trying to show us in him. It's amazing to me that alot of people consider H emotionless & far from human, when in all actuality, it's these things he did that truly showed he is human, & IS emotional - otherwise he wouldn't have reached that breaking point to begin with.

it's actually what the badge represents/the job Horatio is employed to do that demands a squeaky clean approach to gathering evidence and towards the treatment of suspects. If seeing such violence and victims for such a long period of time prompts Horatio to become a vigilante on behalf of those victims then it really is time for him to hang up his badge because he should not be operating under the guise of a law enforcement officer when administering his own form of punishments

I don't agree with this, but I can understand this point of view for someone who was once so invested in the character. This is a tv show though, & if this character had no flaws, no reaction to the death's he's had to see before him, & was squeeky clean as you say he should be, then it would be rather boring, imho.
Welcome back to the board, by the way.

 

[Della]

Oh, and one more time. Horatio did not murder Riaz. It was self-defense. It's interesting to me that a lot of people who watched that scene failed to see the knife Riaz had in his hand.

I was talking about the Mala Noche Gang member to be honest. Despite the fact that I do still question Horatio’s motives and intent when he fought Riaz, all in all, as you say, it wasn’t murder.

Horatio and Eric went to Rio with extradition papers for Riaz. They did not go there intending to "murder" him. Their intent was to bring him back to the U.S. to stand trial.

Aaaah, yes, thank you for explaining this. I remember how the extradition papers came about now. Wasn’t it the Brazilian official who okayed the papers and then made the stipulation that it should be Horatio who comes and picks up Riaz? *shrug* Been a long time since I’ve seen it to be honest.

Either way, as said above, I do still question Horatio’s intent and also his motives. I really can’t say for sure he went there with every intention of bringing Riaz back to Miami and this is further strengthened when knowing that by the time he fought Riaz he knew about Ray and who’d been responsible for his death and he also knew that Riaz had got his grubby little paws on Ray Jr too.

... and whilst all this may explain Horatio being “Human” he was still over in Rio acting on behalf of the Miami Police Department. If he’d had any respect for the job that he did, for what the badge meant to him, he would not have continued under the guise of acting on behalf of the Miami Police Department, or, as he said to the Mala Noche gang member just before he murdered him, acting on behalf of Miami Justice.

In all honesty, that little sequence of events and especially Horatio’s idiotic quote at the end actually killed the character for me on so many levels - one from the character’s POV and another from what the PTBs were actually condoning – that any given set of circumstances is okay for a cop to murder a suspect.

...and let’s not forget the incident with the suspected Paedophile. That was when I stopped watching.

All in all, if either event had occurred on the spur of the moment then I could go some way towards forgiving the character, but both were premeditated. The moment Horatio began to make his way over to the wounded gang member he knew what he was going to do, and he condemned himself when he said that it was on behalf of Miami Justice... and when he went to the suspected Paedophile’s place he knew what he was going to do then, though why he thought taking off his badge would exonerate him I have no idea.

Still, the thing I find scariest of all was a condoning of his actions from a fair few viewers simply because of whom he was killing/about to beat to a pulp (if indeed he stopped at that point). That really doesn’t send out a good message in my opinion, and it’s another reason why I stopped watching.

Agreed completely, every single word. These are my exact thoughts about Horatio! I don't mind his "dark side" - I don't want to see it worsen, but I'm able to get past what he did as I saw he had reason behind it, & I could see what tptb were doing with it & what they were trying to show us in him. It's amazing to me that alot of people consider H emotionless & far from human, when in all actuality, it's these things he did that truly showed he is human, & IS emotional - otherwise he wouldn't have reached that breaking point to begin with.

I don’t mind seeing a dark side to a character, but, in my opinion, there has to be hints of this darker side from the very beginning. I know Horatio admitted that “Science was his rein” which suggested to me that he’d been less than the perfect cop in the past, however, the quote also tells the viewer that he had moved on from his less than stellar past – along with how he was behaving on-screen – and in my opinion we had plenty of evidence shown to us to know that Horatio had moved on.

I think turning the character as dark as they have with the Horatio Caine character would have worked with the character Caruso played on NYPD Blue because that character was less than stellar to begin with. I think it would have been a far more logical process than what they did with the Horatio character.

I don't agree with this, but I can understand this point of view for someone who was once so invested in the character. This is a tv show though, & if this character had no flaws, no reaction to the death's he's had to see before him, & was squeeky clean as you say he should be, then it would be rather boring, imho.

I’m not saying Horatio should be without flaws. Criminy he already had many. However having a character commit murder and also, at the very least, GBH, is not, in my opinion, introducing a ‘flaw’ in the character. In all honesty, Ryan’s OCD is a flaw in the character.

… and yeah, I did invest quite a bit in the Horatio Caine character. At the beginning I thought he was a well crafted hero who did have some flaws, and yeah, I was rather passionate in my dislike of what they were doing to the character later on, but time passes and to be honest, all in all, it really is just a TV show. I still won’t watch it though because it is painful to see such a lovely character behave in the way that he does, and from some of the reviews I’ve read, how they’ve turned him into Super H, the indestructible.

Call me sentimental or whatever, but I prefer to watch a TV character where there’s a positive vibe to garner from them. I don’t want to be watching a character who drags me down into their own pit of hell. And I really don’t want to be watching a character who condones in their own mind that it’s alright to break the law just so long as the bad guys pay.

Welcome back to the board, by the way.

Been a while hasn’t it, mjszud – chuckle. Thanks for the re-welcome, muchly appreciated indeed . I doubt I’ll be staying long though, depending if anyone likes to chat more on this subject really.



PS: To be honest I personally can't quite find it in myself to excuse Horatio committing murder and GBH simply because he has spent an inordinate amount of years having to see such violence and what not. There are countless civilians depicted in the show who spend their entire life in a violent part of society and some succumb to it and others don't. I had always thought Horatio was strong enough to be one of those who never would succumb and I was disappointed, to say the least, when the PTBs decided otherwise. *shrug*

 

[Delynn]

I was talking about the Mala Noche Gang member to be honest. Despite the fact that I do still question Horatio’s motives and intent when he fought Riaz, all in all, as you say, it wasn’t murder.

Again, I think the interpretation of those events are determined by where you were with this character at that moment and time. I think Horatio and Eric went to Rio with the honest intention of bringing Riaz back to stand trial.

Circumstances changed that mission. The failure of the Brazilian authorities to comply with the extradition request, Raymond's death, Ray Jr.'s disappearance, all worked to change the dynamics of the situation. Horatio and Eric were simply reacting to those changes.

When we were brought into the fight between Eric and Riaz, we were not given the circumstances under which the fight started. I don't know if Eric tired to kill Riaz or take him into custody. But by the time Horatio arrived it was a life and death altercation.

Should Eric and Horatio have been able to subdue Riaz and bring him back? Maybe. But I didn't leave that scene feeling that way. I got the distinct impression that Riaz was going to make it his life and death stand.

I've watched that episode multiple times and just cannot see where the altercation with Riaz can in anyway be defined as premeditated murder.

At that point in time I think both Horatio and Eric were angry and frustrated that Riaz had been allowed to murder Marisol with apparent impunity, but I don't think murder was ever their intent.

I also realize is my perspective is that of someone who likes Horatio, although not his actions in every situation.

... and whilst all this may explain Horatio being “Human” he was still over in Rio acting on behalf of the Miami Police Department. If he’d had any respect for the job that he did, for what the badge meant to him, he would not have continued under the guise of acting on behalf of the Miami Police Department, or, as he said to the Mala Noche gang member just before he murdered him, acting on behalf of Miami Justice.

Here I have to strongly disagree - unless I'm confused about which trip to Rio you are referring to. The first trip to bring Riaz back, I agree. Horatio and Eric were acting as members of law enforcement there to bring back a wanted criminal. I don't think either acted inappropriately in that situation.

The second time Horatio was in Brazil, he was hardly there representing the Miami Dade Police Department! He'd been taken back as a private citizen to face false charges that he murdered Riaz. (Conveniently, Eric was missing from these charges.) Charges set up and paid for by Julia (the reason Eric was missing from the charges).

Don't get me wrong. I was completely horrified when he shot that guy in cold blood! I also re-evaluated my committment to this show and this character.

I still strongly believe that this action was the writers way of testing how much the fans would put up with. What surprised me about the action, to be truthful, is a remark I remember on the DVD commentary for the episode "Urban Hellraisers". They had commented Caruso had problem with the scene where the bad guys break into the crime lab and one is holding a gun on Natalia ready to shoot.

The scene apparently called for Horatio to come up behind the guy and shoot him without warning. Caruso took exception to that thinking that Horatio would never shoot someone in the back without warning.

The scene was altered so that Horatio does shoot the guy, but he yells out at him first as a warning. So unless Caruso also voiced concern about Horatio's actions in this circumstance, and his input this time was ignored, his view of Horatio had also changed by the second trip to Rio as well.

... In all honesty, that little sequence of events and especially Horatio’s idiotic quote at the end actually killed the character for me on so many levels - one from the character’s POV and another from what the PTBs were actually condoning – that any given set of circumstances is okay for a cop to murder a suspect.

Again, I won't say that I wasn't horrified by that event and what Horatio did. And I'm not making an excuse for his actions, but I did NOT see him working in a law enforcement capacity at that moment. He was not there as a representative of the Miami Dade Police Department on the second trip to Rio. He was there because Julia paid to have him charged and extradited.

I saw him as an individual who was tired of himself, and more importantly, the people he cared about being the continious target of these people. And he was in a country where going to the police was obviously not an option for him.

...and let’s not forget the incident with the suspected Paedophile. That was when I stopped watching.

All in all, if either event had occurred on the spur of the moment then I could go some way towards forgiving the character, but both were premeditated. The moment Horatio began to make his way over to the wounded gang member he knew what he was going to do, and he condemned himself when he said that it was on behalf of Miami Justice... and when he went to the suspected Paedophile’s place he knew what he was going to do then, though why he thought taking off his badge would exonerate him I have no idea.

I think that most police officers would tell you that the badge is sacrosanct. I see a major difference in the actions and demeanor of the officers I have worked with when they have the have their badge and gun on and when they don't.

Taking the badge and gun off was a way, in his mind, of indicating his actions were his own and not related to his law enforcement position. (Keeping in mind that he didn't have his badge for that second trip to Rio either.)

The problem with that is that we have been conditioned with this character that he is the very definition of the law and doing the right thing. By insinuating that he was moving toward harming the suspect with his actions the writers took that away from us. (I'm sorry, call me naive, but nobody saw him beat up the suspect. At any time he could have decided it wasn't worth it and put the handcuffs on. His crucifiction in this matter is all based on insinuation and assumption. A court of law would require a little more proof.)

Still, the thing I find scariest of all was a condoning of his actions from a fair few viewers simply because of whom he was killing/about to beat to a pulp (if indeed he stopped at that point). That really doesn’t send out a good message in my opinion, and it’s another reason why I stopped watching.

Nope. No condoning here. If he did it he should be forced to deal with the consequences of his actions.

I wish they would address the matter to be honest. This new guy coming in apparently has a history with Horatio. If they are close enough, I'd love to see Horatio tell him that he was in a situation where he was so burnt out and so close to the edge, that he strongly considered crossing the line and harming a suspect. Then thought better and called someone to take him.

And no, I don't see that happening and yes I'm an eternal optimist in this area. :lol:

...I don’t mind seeing a dark side to a character, but, in my opinion, there has to be hints of this darker side from the very beginning. I know Horatio admitted that “Science was his rein” which suggested to me that he’d been less than the perfect cop in the past, however, the quote also tells the viewer that he had moved on from his less than stellar past – along with how he was behaving on-screen – and in my opinion we had plenty of evidence shown to us to know that Horatio had moved on.

Hmm. That's an interesting interpretation of Horatio's statement that the "Science was his discipline." I really don't know how to respond to it except to say I never got from that statement that at one time Horatio was a "less than perfect cop". I'll have to think a bit on that one.

Call me sentimental or whatever, but I prefer to watch a TV character where there’s a positive vibe to garner from them. I don’t want to be watching a character who drags me down into their own pit of hell. And I really don’t want to be watching a character who condones in their own mind that it’s alright to break the law just so long as the bad guys pay.

Ah, but the writers call that drama and that is what they do. And we've already seen that drama is their intent and it doesn't matter how badly they damage/destroy the characters of their show to get it.

PS: To be honest I personally can't quite find it in myself to excuse Horatio committing murder and GBH simply because he has spent an inordinate amount of years having to see such violence and what not. There are countless civilians depicted in the show who spend their entire life in a violent part of society and some succumb to it and others don't. I had always thought Horatio was strong enough to be one of those who never would succumb and I was disappointed, to say the least, when the PTBs decided otherwise. *shrug*

The amount of pain and suffering he has seen and experienced is not meant as an excuse. It's meant to serve as a possible explanation. Cop burn out and PTSD are a fact of life. However, I do agree if that was what the writers were trying to show, they screwed up badly.

But then that's hardly the only thing they've screwed up badly in the last couple of years. :scream:

 

[Della]

First of all can I just say that yes, I am confusing the two visits to Brazil. My apologies.

Secondly whilst Horatio wears the badge he is accountable for his actions as a Law Enforcement Officer employed to uphold the Law, and when he’s not wearing the badge then he’s accountable for his actions as a Civilian who’s expected by society and by the Law Enforcement Agencies to uphold the Law. Either way, I cannot stress enough that on both occasions, wearing the badge, acting on behalf of the badge, and/or not wearing the badge at all, Horatio broke the law and until there is some form of retribution for those actions he took, then the character is unsalvageable to me.

I am fully aware of cops burning out. It’s hardly surprising given what they do see on a regular basis and what they are called to investigate and so on, but, in my opinion, the moment that happens then I feel that unless a psychiatrist, (for example), believes that person to be stable enough to continue in his line of work, then he should be hanging up his badge because he is a liability, not only to himself but to his fellow officers and, most importantly, to the public too.

Aaaanyway...

Again, I think the interpretation of those events are determined by where you were with this character at that moment and time. I think Horatio and Eric went to Rio with the honest intention of bringing Riaz back to stand trial.

Now if I’m back on track with the right visit to Brazil, the reason I still question Horatio’s intent and motivations is because of the parting scene he and Eric shared at the end of “One of our own”. I think Eric asks Horatio if that’s the end of it, or something along those lines, but either way I know Horatio confirmed to Eric that it wasn’t and that they would be going to Rio after Riaz.

Also, another reason I was confused is because I remember another Agency doing a deal with Riaz and that was why he was being ‘let go’ and being sent back to Brazil – which I would presume meant that they were dropping all charges Horatio and Eric had garnered against Riaz.. I don’t remember any mention of, or seeing any, extradition papers at all at the beginning of Rio. When did we get to see them?

So how could Horatio and Eric have obtained extradition papers when another Agency had already dealt with the matter in the first place?

The failure of the Brazilian authorities to comply with the extradition request,

When did this happen?

When we were brought into the fight between Eric and Riaz, we were not given the circumstances under which the fight started. I don't know if Eric tired to kill Riaz or take him into custody. But by the time Horatio arrived it was a life and death altercation.

To be honest, I think this is why Horatio’s intent and motivation at that point in time is seriously under question, and also Eric’s as well. Did Eric confront Riaz with the intent to kill him? Did Horatio take over the fight from Eric because he knew he would be killing him and therefore only Horatio could be made to accept whatever punishment would be due for doing that? Why did Horatio takeover from Eric?

Why were they there in the first place when it had already been established that the other LEA had made a deal with Riaz and therefore null and voided any evidence Horatio and Eric had had against Riaz.

I've watched that episode multiple times and just cannot see where the altercation with Riaz can in anyway be defined as premeditated murder.

I agree with you and I think I already said so. *shrug* Still, the way I see it is that a wonderful opportune moment arose where Horatio could use Riaz’s brutality against him and if it descended into a perfect moment where he could kill Riaz, then he wouldn’t be too upset at that happening.

I also realize is my perspective is that of someone who likes Horatio, although not his actions in every situation.

Um, I’m not sure what you mean by this coming from my POV. Um, I adored the Horatio character and I adored CSI Miami as well. I think my earlier posts on this board can attest most strongly to that. In all honesty, what happened in Rio didn’t phase me that much at the time, and in all honesty it doesn’t phase me to this day, but what happened on his second visit to Rio did, and BOY did it..

The second time Horatio was in Brazil, he was hardly there representing the Miami Dade Police Department! He'd been taken back as a private citizen to face false charges that he murdered Riaz. (Conveniently, Eric was missing from these charges.) Charges set up and paid for by Julia (the reason Eric was missing from the charges).

As said at the top of this reply, whether Horatio is wearing a badge or not, either way he broke the law and it should be shown that he is punished, as any other civilian is, for his law breaking actions.

Don't get me wrong. I was completely horrified when he shot that guy in cold blood! I also re-evaluated my committment to this show and this character.

It made me re-evaluate the character and the show and I didn’t like where either one of them were going, hence my reluctance to watch thereafter and then my completely abandoning the show after the suspected Paedophile incident.

I still strongly believe that this action was the writers way of testing how much the fans would put up with. What surprised me about the action, to be truthful, is a remark I remember on the DVD commentary for the episode "Urban Hellraisers". They had commented Caruso had problem with the scene where the bad guys break into the crime lab and one is holding a gun on Natalia ready to shoot.

The scene apparently called for Horatio to come up behind the guy and shoot him without warning. Caruso took exception to that thinking that Horatio would never shoot someone in the back without warning.

The scene was altered so that Horatio does shoot the guy, but he yells out at him first as a warning. So unless Caruso also voiced concern about Horatio's actions in this circumstance, and his input this time was ignored, his view of Horatio had also changed by the second trip to Rio as well.

Sorry to be so brutally honest but I really couldn’t care less if it was a ploy by the writers/PTBs to test the fans on how far they could push things. For me, they virtually killed the character with those two actions and if it was just a ploy to see how far they could push things, then it was a complete and utter waste of a killing as well.

Again, I won't say that I wasn't horrified by that event and what Horatio did. And I'm not making an excuse for his actions, but I did NOT see him working in a law enforcement capacity at that moment. He was not there as a representative of the Miami Dade Police Department on the second trip to Rio. He was there because Julia paid to have him charged and extradited.

I saw him as an individual who was tired of himself, and more importantly, the people he cared about being the continious target of these people. And he was in a country where going to the police was obviously not an option for him.

Again, and I am sorry, but I don’t really subscribe to this way of thinking I’m afraid. I’ve already said that even when not wearing the badge, the law of the land that all civilians should be adhering to is still in place and Horatio still, for whatever reason, justified or not, (though in all honesty his circumstances did not justify him to break the law), he still broke the law and should be punished like any other law breaking citizen. Admittedly, the reasons for his actions are understandable, but they are not justifiable. There is a big difference between the two.

Taking the badge and gun off was a way, in his mind, of indicating his actions were his own and not related to his law enforcement position. (Keeping in mind that he didn't have his badge for that second trip to Rio either.)

In my opinion that's a good description of how a vigilante operates. He was doing this under his own volition, administering his own form of justice as he saw fit.

The problem with that is that we have been conditioned with this character that he is the very definition of the law and doing the right thing. By insinuating that he was moving toward harming the suspect with his actions the writers took that away from us. (I'm sorry, call me naive, but nobody saw him beat up the suspect. At any time he could have decided it wasn't worth it and put the handcuffs on. His crucifiction in this matter is all based on insinuation and assumption. A court of law would require a little more proof.)

If Horatio’s intent was not to cause grievous bodily harm on the suspected Paedophile, then what was he doing there in the first place? Why was he taking off his gun and his badge? Why was he advancing on the suspect in such a way? Why was he making such threatening overtones towards the suspect? Do you honestly believe that Horatio suddenly had a light-bulb moment, if so, given what we’d already been shown about Horatio, what makes you think he didn’t beat up the suspect, or even worse?

I wish they would address the matter to be honest.

Me too, but it would be the end of CSI Miami because, like it or not, Caruso is the central pin to the show and for them to show Horatio being punished for his vigilante ways it would mean imprisonment. Still, I’d watch that episode, oh yes indeedy I would.

I sincerely hope I haven’t come over all harsh and what not. It’s not my intention, it’s just an airing of an opinion.

 

[electra]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but ,can anyone tell me the name of both episodes where Horatio acted like a vigilante?

 

[mjszud]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but ,can anyone tell me the name of both episodes where Horatio acted like a vigilante?

Most are referring to 'Rio' 5.1, 'All In' 6.16, & 'To Kill a Predator' 6.17

 

[Delynn]

I sincerely hope I haven’t come over all harsh and what not. It’s not my intention, it’s just an airing of an opinion.

Nope. Not at all.

But it's obvious that we are worlds apart in our thoughts on these topics and I don't see either of us switching up. In my case I don't think I can add to anything I've said.

While I don't condone in the least the times that Horatio has stepped outside the law, with or without his badge, I don't want to see the character destroyed because of it. The writers made a bad choice and severely damaged the integrity of the character. It does matter to me that it was the writers who made these choices. I think the writers of this show have a lot to answer for in the past 3-4 years, but that's another thread.

Some fans aren't willing to move past it and want to see Horatio either in prison or dead. I have no wish for such vengence against the character. Maybe it's the fact I'm a little older than most of the people here and having seen a bunch of human frailty and flaws in my life I'm not as judgemental and intolerant with those I think are basically good and decent human beings as I was 20 years ago.

And, as you indicated, remove Horatio from the picture and the show is over. Like him or not. Maybe you'll get your wish and at the end of the series and you'll see Horatio arrested and imprisoned. Or they may decide that death is the only viable closure for Horatio. Should either of those happen however, I do have to say that I won't take any pleasure in watching it.

I am willing to move on because I like Horatio and I remember how he used to be. I see Horatio coming back to his former self. Slowly, but still it's there. And like I think you said, it is just a TV show and he is a fictional character.

And I'm pretty sure that we're just going to keep going in circles. So I think I'm going to give someone else a turn.

Thanks for the interesting discussion - really.

 

[Della]

I really don't want the Horatio Caine character killed off. I wouldn't see the point in that at all. I honestly subscribe to the feeling that whilst there's life there is hope - which also probably explains why I still have a gander every once in a while at peoples views on the episodes. So far none have taken my fancy enough for me to want to have an actual look at an episode - and not just because of the outstanding saga concerning Horatio's actions.

The reason I would watch an episode of Horatio going to prison is because I would feel as if the "Horatio of Old" was being given back to me - though again it would depend on the circumstances surrounding Horatio's imprisonment. Sentimental that I am, I would prefer to see Horatio handing himself over to the authorities, but then so much time has passed since his second visit to Rio and his "supposed" (see I relented - chuckle) beating up of the suspected Paedophile, that I can't see him doing that now - not unless he goes off the wall again, realises that he has become too dangerous and does something about it.

As a side note: I have a feeling you'd be surprised to learn how old I am, and I also think you might be surprised to learn that I am far far farrrr more forgiving of real people than I am of TV characters.

My favourite TV characters are three dimensional characters but ones that ultimately give out a positive vibe and therefore convey a positive message to the viewing public. They're, kind of, the vessels which carry whatever message is meant to be conveyed and Horatio used to be a good message carrier, but when they turned him into a vigilante, and with the lack of retribution(?) being shown, the message he then conveyed was one which condoned his vigilante tendacies. And not only that but his one liners concerning the latest bad guy/girl went from being humorous to being hypocritical, thus turning Horatio into a hypocrit - which ultimately meant that I could no longer enjoy those wonderful turns of phrases.

Still, as you say, it does appear that we're not going to make any headway on each other's opinion, which is a shame, but it does happen. I'm really pleased that you didn't feel as if I was being overly demonstrative with my opinion and yeah, I too thorouhgly enjoyed our conversation.

Cheers Delynn

 

[Zipster]

I've read through this debate and it shows to me that there are points on both sides, that people have fallen out of love with Horatio or, have come to like him more becuase of his darker side.

I love the character personally and I forgive him the assumed beating - "you're resisting arrest" - of the paedophile who, lets be brutally honest here, was a guy helping the authorities to capture paedophiles! I completely empathise with Horatio's character regarding treatment of Children and I can honestly see him realistically absolutely losing it with this guy. I thought the writers brought back a bit of his old character with that one scene. I still have very fond memories of the original CSI "Cross Jurisdiction" episode where he found the missing girl then - and many other examples from season one to three where his character was extremely sympathetic and thoroughly decent. Vigilante in this sence? No. Human in my opinion.

Now.. I was shocked and appalled at the unnecessary shooting of the injured Mala Noche gang member. Miami justice? Rubbish - totally out of character with the original set-up. This Horatio "Super H" as he is referred to is just not the guy I want to watch. I like DC a lot. I find him fascinating as an actor. Yes I know he is ridiculed for his style, but broadly speaking a lot of that is down to the writers in my opinion. I noticed in season seven a lot of the one liners were gone. Good. Grissom also annoyed me with a lot of his one liners as well. Getting back to the debate here, and well it's probably more of an opinion then an actual debate, but I do not like the Horatio that has developed since season four frankly. I liked the fast talking intelligent discussion in the lab - where he belongs - this Horatio is a cop, not a scientist. I did not like Kim Delaney at all in season one, her acting was by far the worst I had seen on a CSI show - however - her character was a scientist and back then so was Horatio. So what I'm trying to say here is yes, in that one instance Horatio turned bad. Everything he had accomplished up to this point was ruined by that one, senseless act of murder; but I don't hold DC accountable for that. Vigilante? In this case, most definitely.

I really do hope that we get the scientist back in Horatio. The bomb disposal expert! I really do hope we don't have this "Super H" any more. I won't stop watching the show if that doesn't happen of course becuase I have invested a lot of my time in it, and I still love the show and the actors. I haven't always liked the technology they use in Miami and my favourite show is still CSI:NY out of all three. Nevertheless the difference between say Grissom and Horatio or Mac Taylor is that the latter two are scientist/police officers. Together you get a real sence of their determination to upholder the law. With Grissom it was where the evidence took him, and he wasn't always (in my opinion) fighting to uphold the law, he was just processing the evidence.

Horatio is just like Jim Brass now - and Jim Brass is a much more believable police officer then Horatio is.

No offence intended by my opinions or observations.

Z
:thumbsup:

 

[Della]

I just thought I'd say that you haven't offended me with your opinions, Zipster, I thought they were very nicely conveyed indeed - probably a lot better than how some of my opinions appear at times

I love the character personally and I forgive him the assumed beating - "you're resisting arrest" - of the paedophile who, lets be brutally honest here, was a guy helping the authorities to capture paedophiles! I completely empathise with Horatio's character regarding treatment of Children and I can honestly see him realistically absolutely losing it with this guy. I thought the writers brought back a bit of his old character with that one scene. I still have very fond memories of the original CSI "Cross Jurisdiction" episode where he found the missing girl then - and many other examples from season one to three where his character was extremely sympathetic and thoroughly decent. Vigilante in this sence? No. Human in my opinion.

I can empathise/understand why Horatio behaved the way he did with the suspected Paedophile, but I'm far from accepting of it - and I'm not convinced at all that it brought back some of the Horatio of Old.

During the first season of Miami Horatio had to deal with a Paedophile called Otis Stewart ("Broken" and "Body Count") and for me he dealt with this man as any Law Enforcement Officer should deal with him, to apprehend him and to bring him in for the courts to decide what to do with him.

The most telling thing for me though was that at the end of one of the episodes, "Body Count", Horatio had a hold of Otis who was dangling over the edge of a car park, a loooong way up from the ground. Otis begged Horatio to let go, but Horatio instead pulled him up to safety. I believe that had we had the later Horatio Caine he would have let go of Otis and most probably smiled while he did that.

In my opinion, the Horatio of Old, the one who had dealt with Otis Stewart, that Horatio Caine would not have re-visited the suspected Paedophile in a later episode, and he most certainly wouldn't have taken the law into his own hands. But then even if the Horatio of Old had gone back to punish this later suspected Paedophile, I think he would have been a tad disgusted with his actions and I think he would have done something about it - perhaps hand himself over or something.

In all honesty, I think there is no question that Horatio is human, like the rest of us, so to speak, where at times the ugly side of being human rears its horrible head and you find yourself acting on those impulses, however, I preferred the Horatio of Old where he conquered his natural human instinct and showed the viewer that it takes a stronger man (in his case) to do that than to succumb to them.

Aaanyway, when I take all that into consideration, it tells me that they have firmly regressed the character, but most importantly, regressed the character to a place where I am not fond of him at all - or with what they are trying to say through that character either.

I'm afraid I just don't subscribe to the thinking that it is only human, and therefore acceptable for a human being to act out one's own personal vengeance on someone -and it really doesn't matter who the recipient of that act is, whether they were the kindest man/woman one ever knew or simply the 'scum of the earth'. The act is yours and yours alone and therefore, if you are committing GBH or murder on someone you believe to be the scum of the earth, your act ultimately makes you no better than the one you're inflicting your vengeance on.

All in all, I used to think that Horatio Caine became a Law Enforcement Officer because he loved the job and all that it entailed, but only because he had a strong sense of Justice within him. Whereas now, I think he does the job because he despises the criminal to a degree that he wants them off the street but no longer cares how he achieves that - and for me there's a big difference between the two.

 

[RoscoeTrek]

Well, H is definitely a cop with a heart!!! And his actions in 'To Kill a Predator' was I believe part of what makes him H. Its just his personality, his character.

And I have to admit it was terrible in both 'Rio' & 'All in' but don't you just love how he caught the bad guy in 'Blood Brothers' season 2.

But despite that, I love H's passion for justice *puts on shades and walks off-screen*

 

[proteinaddict14]

I think he was justified in all of his actions. I do agree they were out of character, and I do understand why fans of the show disapprove of them, and they were illegal, but let's face it, they all got their comeuppance.

Now, in terms of H, he should not have done those things as a cop, but I don't get why some are defending them, but you know, to each his own.