Grade 'Uncertainty Rules'

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Top41, Mar 3, 2010.

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How would you grade Uncertainty Rules?

  1. A+

    13 vote(s)
    31.7%
  2. A

    8 vote(s)
    19.5%
  3. A-

    7 vote(s)
    17.1%
  4. B+

    6 vote(s)
    14.6%
  5. B

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  6. B-

    3 vote(s)
    7.3%
  7. C+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. C

    3 vote(s)
    7.3%
  9. C-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    me too. i think my most shocking csi ny mallet moment was when mac suddenly felt to explain, in interrogation, to an ex nazi, just what the hitler youth was. i think by that point any audience member who hadn't caught on yet was probably dead.
     
  2. Jade_Nolan

    Jade_Nolan CSI Level One

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    it all of a sudden dawned on me that we really do have another new ep in a couple days :eek: *squeeeeeeeeeeee:D* so despite pretty much everything being already said, i figured i should write a little something before the next one!

    i loved it!!! :D lisa, i believe you used the word 'vintage' earlier, and i think that was definitely one of the aspects that i was so happy about. it was less shiny and gimmicky and gadgety and focused on the case and the people involved, not the trappings around it. not to mention the more subdued lighting, gore, dark almost fatalistic/realism atmosphere. and i confess i let out a little excited squeal when stella told hawkes to do the micro laser dissection to separate the blood and epithelials on the axe! :D i wondered if she was remembering mac utilizing that test in 'the closer'. i know i did ;) as i don't think they've had the team run it in a case since then.......could be wrong though :p

    yeah, all i can do when i get bashed over the head by those rubber mallets is shake my head and thank the stars that the cast (particularly gary, though lord knows why they seem to give him most of them since his acting ability makes them even more redundant.... :p) salvage them to the extent that they do...:p and speaking of mallets, i think having lindsey deal with the kid would have been the ultimate of 'covertly' blatent mallets ever. the obviousness of such a thing would have been a bit unbearable.....right down to being in the bathroom when their friends were killed? :rolleyes: i think i would've gagged. not to mention, despite being able to 'relate' to the isolated event, i would've liked to see lindsey talk down and calm the poor boy from his hallucinations and confusion (when he was flipped out) like mac did! and that is not any sort of jab at acting ability or questionable writing of her character..........it's just not her to be able to do something like that......and quite frankly the vast majority of people couldn't have either...

    another huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge 'like' was the acting in this one! no stupid guest 'stars', and you know what? it was all positively superb!!!:D obviously the guy who played James!! i was absolutely floored with his performance! :eek: and as brief as it was, the girl who played his girlfriend was great too!:D and don't even get me started on the awesome-ness of Danny and Flack!!:hugegrin: i was about dying with laughter at interviews they found themselves doing!!:guffaw::guffaw::guffaw: that totally bad-ass little-person fighter?!!:lol: and the old lady?!!:guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw: see? they don't need to have gimmicks and fluff! just solid writing, casting, and let our brilliant cast do their thing! :D
     
  3. xeri

    xeri Hit and Run

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    Finally watched it ...

    I didn't love it, but I liked it. Most has already been said, so I just have to add:
    OMG, the hair, soo "fluffy" :D
    On one hand I would have liked to get the whole team (Siiid), but then maybe the writers wouldn't have given us "the adventures of Danny and Flack" ;).

    To Lindsay: after finally!! getting back Chase chara as his own person in "House MD", they seem to reduce Lindsay to Danny/Lindsay, doesn't a whole lot good for a chara :rolleyes:

    I can believe that Mac can connect with James, but the writers got a bit carried away (don't get me started on the shooting :p), but pleeeeease no Horatio lines, I can only take that once a week not on CSI NY too (sorry to all H fans but I'm not a fan of that side of H ^^)

    The guest actors were all great, but when I saw the name Dominic Keating I was a happy fangirl :luvlove: ... downside: I knew to 90% that he would be the bad guy :p...and the accent, after 4 years Malcolm Reed I just couldn't stop grinning hearing him like this.

    EDIT: Just managed to give myself Reed, Tripp withdrawl symptoms :rolleyes: ^^
    If anyone is interested in his more normal accent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGHbeFtRec
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2010
  4. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    ^ ah, now there's an accent i recognise! he could be my neighbour! he's not, obviously.

    i've been watching the new season on channel 5 as well and there have been quite a few "mac! you're not horatio!!" moments, which is a tad worrying.

    also i was watching season 1 last night and mac - in hush describes himself as a "science obsessed criminalist" - and the first thing i thought was "well then, that backs up his science obsessed attitude this time" - maybe i'm too easily persuaded, but it is gary sinise so who can blame me? ;)
     
  5. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    A few people on spoiler blogs don't necessarily represent the fandom as a whole. A lot of the posts on spoiler blogs come from the same people... to the point that I've even started to recognize some of the more unique names! And many of those questions are about "Danny and Lindsay."

    Yeah, but both times--she's more invested in dead people than in the living... and what's more, dead people she thinks she has something in common with (young women trying to make it in the big city).

    I'd have to go back and watch to comment further, but I remember the little girl responding to Danny more than Lindsay.

    That scene struck me as odd because I do remember her asking far fewer questions than Stella. And I remember the stone face. I guess you could call it awkwardness, but she's always kind of awkward, which kind of proves my point about her not connecting with people effectively, and therefore not being the right character to get across that emotional connection.

    I think they all do that. I know she did it with Danny in "Trapped," but of course, she was interested in Danny.

    I just got a flat, robotic feel from her performance. She delivers the lines without really adding any humanity to them.

    There's almost always comic relief in CSI episodes just as a contrast for the dark tone of the premise of the shows overall. I thought the humor was effectively sectioned off from James here. Certainly the horror of what happened in the hotel room was driven home by Flack's intensity in that first interrogation.

    She hasn't had a single storyline this season, she's hardly done anything meaningful (aside from saving Flack once and one cheesy undercover operation). But as I've said before, I think the writers have a found a balance to keep both her fans and her detractors happy. She's married to Danny--pleasing the DL crowd--and she's not emoting much, pleasing those of us who don't think she can carry the weighty emotional performances. And she's gone from a lot of the episodes, which also helps.

    With regard to Sid's storyline--I think that was one of those "connecting to a victim/victim's relative" episodes that all the characters seem to have now and then. Just like Mac connecting with James.

    It wouldn't, but it seems to be the major thing for her character these days.
     
  6. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    Since I am not a big Lindsey fan I have a tendency to not pay close attention when she speaks!:lol: So can someone please enlighten me as to the episode this is in referance too?
     
  7. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    ^It's from "Admissions."
     
  8. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I do get that, but several questions of a similar nature usually does suggest a trend...and well, particularly from the DL-fanbase. Since if this current setup was put in place to please everyone, I'd actually expect things to be a lot quieter on that front. (Read: not nearly as many questions about Lindsay’s whereabouts). Because S6 would be the dream season for someone who just wanted DL, right? Lindsay shares almost her every scene with Danny and when she’s not there it’s fairly safe to assume she’s at home being one of the real housewives of New Jersey York for him. :rolleyes: Where’s the problem?

    I think she was more intrigued with Lillian Stanwick than identifying with her (mostly because they didn't have a whole lot in common beyond both living in New York); but yes, I agree with that. It's why I figured they'd purposely been increasing the degree to which she gets invested. It's easy enough to get invested with the dead, it's a little tougher when it becomes about the people left behind (because according to Stella in "No Good Deed", that's exactly what they're not supposed to do). And they'd been leaning more toward the latter in the last three seasons with Lindsay.

    Fair enough :) I saw it recently so I stand by what I said earlier...

    I'm not sure about the first interview, but Stella and Lindsay each asked three questions in that second scene. And yeah, I don't think she connects with people all that effectively. I just thought tptb were making a point of showing how she's starting to grow out of that these past few seasons (since that's what usually happens to similar characters in other shows/movies/books; if they try enough times, like Lindsay has, they tend to get it eventually). If they were, I think this could've been a good episode to continue that arc; but then again, I'm thinking it might not've meshed well with the tone of this episode. On that note:

    The humour is usually a dry sort of sarcasm that meshes perfectly with the things they're seeing (at least, it is with CSI and NY; not too sure about Miami) -- not sitcom-esque comedy humour. Don't get me wrong, I thought the guest stars were one of the best parts of this episode. But between the clowns in James's flashback, the mini-wrestler, the bingo players, even Rufus in that first interrogation...these things effectively muted the horror James must've felt in this episode for me. (And of course, the shootout at the end capped that off.) There was no way for me to take it as seriously as the other mass murders we've seen on this show, like the ones from Darius in S2, or even the Amityville murder in Boo.

    Moreover, I can't help thinking that I wasn't supposed to take it super-seriously, because there were enough wisecracks between Adam, Danny, Flack, Hawkes, and even Stella to suggest they weren't seeing this as a particularly horrifying scenario, either. To me, Flack seemed genuinely furious in his interrogation with James because of (as he perceived it at the time) the utter stupidity of four people dying because James got wasted. Not because of the horrifying nature of the scene itself.

    [Sorry, I know I'm breaking the order here :lol:, but I felt this was the best place to address the comment.]

    She also did it in All Access (that first scene when she's told by Danny what happened), Charge of this Post (during the case -- long before they all showed up at the hospital), and Page Turner, when she showed up at the hospital.

    *A slight correction on my comments about Admissions earlier: having watched it again, I noticed that while Lindsay kept leaning forward during the interrogation, they never actually showed her hands, so there's no real way to tell if she had her hand on the girl's or not :lol: But those little things like the way she kept leaning forward and the way she kept stepping in whenever Gerrard's daughter started blaming herself again, for me those added the humanity, and made the whole thing come off as anything but robotic. And I thought her "I think I'm going to be sick" line in the scene directly afterward, denoted genuine disgust.

    I answered most of this above, but same thing: it hardly seems like this is a balance that's keeping "everyone" happy, and if they're having to provide sound bytes about Lindsay being a "crime-fighter", then you'd think that'd tell them something. I still want the storyline, but for me it's not so much about that (mostly because the same thing has literally been said for several seasons about other characters), as it is about the umbilical cord that attaches her to Danny during almost her every scene. However, I don't get the "emotional-performances" angle. For me, I'm frustrated because the majority of Lindsay's character-driven emotive scenes are DL-related; I don't think they count because I dislike DL and think if they can spend all that screentime on it, they certainly have time to set up a similar dynamic between Lindsay and some other character. That doesn't mean the emotive scenes themselves don't exist :confused: Just that, except for the ones you mentioned above, they're all surrounding a subject matter that doesn't interest me.
     
  9. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    People who invest in the couple naturally want to see them together on screen. I've seen plenty of comments constantly calling for more "DL moments." More in previous seasons than this one, but I'd also argue that a happy couple is the quickest way to tank a ship. What's to talk about if all is well and good and dandy. They're a pretty boring pair on screen together, even by happy couple standards.

    In a really, really miniscule way. She still doesn't relate to victims very often, and when she does, it doesn't come off very naturally.

    I don't think the reason they didn't pick Lindsay to mesh with James had anything to do with the tone. Otherwise, why have Mac share some serious scenes with him? I think it came down to which actor could handle those scenes, and which one couldn't.

    But that was part of the hook of the show--James didn't remember what happened to him, so the focus was more on piecing together what happened. That said, there was a fair amount of emphasis on his trauma, like when he started to remember things, when he was teetering on the edge of shooting Rufus, and at the end, when Mac reunited him with his family.

    I think it was both. How can they possibly be separated? And there was a lot of focus on Danny and Hawkes trying to figure out the order of who was killed. I don't think the fact that there was humor in the episode--an an attempt to do a take off of The Hangover--was intended to make light of the death of four people. The overriding theme was how unlikely it was that all of these things fell into place to lead to the outcome of four people being dead in a hotel room.

    The outburst in "All Access" felt like her drawing attention to herself--and also felt like it came kind of out of left field. I don't remember the other two instances, but again--those kind of "how is so-and-so" lines are given to all of the characters at different times.

    I'm not faulting the writing here so much as Anna's performance. I'm sure we were supposed to feel like she made a connection with the girl, but Anna can't sell these scenes... which is probably why she hasn't been given another one since "Admission." (And no, I don't count her silently handing flowers to someone in the same league as actually connecting with a victim. ;) )

    Yeah, I think you're the rare Lindsay fan who doesn't like DL and doesn't just want to see scenes of them together. I think they're pandering to the majority of the character's fans with that... and I do wonder what kind of character Lindsay would be without DL, and how she would be perceived if that didn't encompass the majority of her overall development on the show. I'd still argue there hasn't been much for Lindsay this season that has any depth, even in the DL interactions--she went from being hyper-critical of Danny to his biggest cheerleader almost overnight. None of the development feels very organic or interesting or fleshed out to me, but, at least for me, I feel like I can't come down on the writers too hard for that because Anna Belknap has proved time and time again that she fumbles the weightier material when they give it to her.

    And that was basically the point of my original comment--that thematically it made all the sense in the world to have Lindsay be the one to reach out to James, but realistically, they can't hang an episode on her because Anna can't do the material justice. I'm not the biggest Mac fan out there by any means, but there's no question of whether Gary can handle the material or not--and he's playing a character that's just as emotionally awkward as Lindsay (supposedly) is... or was, since she's seemed fine and dandy the past two seasons.
     
  10. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    Thanks TOP!:thumbsup:
    Gives me a good excuse to rewatch an episode ... although I really dont need an excuse now do I!:lol:
     
  11. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Well, they are constantly seeing them together onscreen this season. And to be honest, I haven't come across a single DL fan who's unhappy that they're not drowning in drama this season; the majority of the ones I have come across were actually groaning when that spoiler about DL being "involved in a cliffhanger" came out. It seems like as far as DL is concerned, they're pretty much getting what they want, yet they're still restless, and still the questions about Lindsay are being sent in.

    She hasn't actually related to victims since S2 -- hence the progression I figured I was seeing.

    ETA: sorry, that should be dead victims :lol:

    I don't think it ever came down to which actor would better handle the scenes -- because, quite frankly, it was never going to be Gary Sinise sitting out on an episode... I just think it honestly never occurred to them that this could be a good chance to revisit Lindsay's backstory. Mostly because it's likely they've entirely forgotten that backstory, since its main purpose was presumably served way back in S3.

    Well, I agree that the comedic puzzle-pieces were a huge part of the episode's hook; it's just that they made it really hard to contrast that with James's trauma, in a way that would make it actually come off as traumatic. I could point to several other examples where one of the team has followed up with a vic throughout the case -- the woman Stella connected with in "Battle Scars", or the one Mac connected with in "Night, Mother" -- when I could feel their dilemma strongly because other elements of the episode didn't drown that out. Those episodes really were about the trauma left on those vics. The same thing didn't happen in this one, and I still don't think it was supposed to. If it was, I think they shot themselves in the foot by going over the top with the comedy.

    There's a difference between four people being killed out of intentional malice (a definitive evil that the team routinely comes across), and four people being killed because the killer was too high to know what he was doing. And I think the latter would likely inspire a lot more anger from Flack.

    No, I know that -- it was mostly supposed to be about the randomness of the entire night. And I don't think they intended to make light of the massacre; but this was definitely one of the most light-hearted episodes of the season nevertheless. I'm not saying it doesn't seem weird to say that about a case featuring a massacre :lol: But if it wasn't meant to be this light, they went wrong somewhere...

    I wasn't referring to her outburst, I meant the earlier scene, where Danny told her what happened and she was saying "How does something like this happen; I mean, I know how it happens, but...should we go visit her?" and so on.

    It's not that those lines aren't generic, and generally given to someone. It's that with the exception of "Comes Around" (when Mac was on trial), "Green Piece" (when Adam got caught in the explosion), and "It Happened to Me" (with Hawkes) I can't remember a time when she hasn't demonstrated some concern over X pain of X teammate. Whereas I do know which characters didn't bother to do the same in any of the given episodes.

    Does Nicole Harris (from The Box) not count in the same league, either? Because if we're just going on where we "felt" Lindsay made a connection (and how Anna sells it), I'd argue they've actually had quite a few of those strewn in between Seasons 4 and 5. It's one of the reasons I'm so pissed with S6, because it feels like all that development's gone down the tubes for this one lame storyline.

    It does seem to be subjective, depending on whether the scenes work for a viewer or not, but I'd hardly say they haven't been giving her connecting-moments. They don't follow up on them that well, and they don't stage them like the ones in Admissions. But I'd argue that they haven't been giving many of those type of scenes to anyone who's not Mac or Stella these past two seasons. With the exception of "The Party's Over" for Adam and "Flag on the Play" for Sid (and arguably, "It Happened to Me" for Hawkes and "The Box" for Danny).

    Well, I got to liking her because, what with her not crossing paths with Danny in most of the episodes I used to see her in, I really only got to know what she was like outside of him. I haven't seen her outside of him for ages...and if this was what the majority of her fans preferred, again, I can't help but think there'd be fewer questions about her this season. They clearly don't seem to be pandering all that well to them.

    On writing vs. actress: it'd be one thing if they were limiting Lindsay's appearances to only once or twice in each episode she's in; I could maybe see your point then. But that's not what they're doing - since entering CSI-verse fandom, I've heard a lot of complaints about X-character not getting enough screentime, and especially lately I can't even make that complaint about Lindsay, because she gets enough.

    To me that seems to be the weirdest way to handle an actress that may not be working out for them. When they're writing all these emo-DL scenes (many of which I'd imagine require a lot more emoting than a simple rapport-scene between Lindsay and Hawkes, or Lindsay and Adam would take), that makes it seem like they're writing based off their own preference of what they want to see from her. Even Anna has speculated on things she'd like to see from Lindsay before, in interviews, that have nothing to do with DL. It makes no sense that this is literally the only thing they're able to do with her.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  12. Curiosity

    Curiosity Prime Suspect

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    Grade = B for a solid, above average episode.


    The Good

    I liked how the themes of uncertainty and chance were used in showing how a series of seemingly unrelated events and timelines converged with significant and tragic consequences.

    Also liked how the writer(s) incorporated the unexpected into the students’ night (bingo at an assisted living home, wrestling with a little person? :)) as opposed to the stereotypical events that usually comprise a guys’ night out. And once again, Flack’s expressions while questioning some of the more unusual witnesses were quite funny.

    Good use of humor despite a very tragic case.

    The actor playing James did a good job with the role, displaying a range of emotions in a believable way.


    Not So Good

    I can see how Mac could relate to someone like James, but this is an instance where more “show” and less “ tell” would’ve been best. That said, I find it easier to believe that Mac can quote Einstein than to believe that he is a fan of race car driving.

    Rufus. Dominic Keating did a good job portraying the sleazy, odd outward persona, but I couldn’t figure out if he was trying to speak with an obscure NY accent, a Southern drawl, or maybe even a Cajun accent as someone mentioned. It was distracting, and I couldn’t understand some of the dialogue. Also, did they explain how Rufus found out where the girls were hiding out or how he was able to find and recognize Mac and James? (Maybe they did, and I just missed it.)


    Other

    Lindsay did have a similar experience to James, but I still can’t quite picture her being the one to build rapport and comfort him. Yes, Lindsay expresses concern for others on occasion, but off the top of my head, I can’t really think of many instances during which she’s provided direct comfort and support, even to her co-workers (other than Danny).

    Interesting that they sort of switched Mac’s and Stella’s roles in this episode, with Mac being the one to bond with one of the victims and Stella being the one to direct the case. It does seem they are emphasizing Stella’s leadership role for some specific purpose. My guess is that Stella may be offered a promotion / job outside the NY lab, which sort of ties into some other possibilities for her arc.



    My take is that the producers/writers have a bit of a dilemma with Lindsay. They invested a lot of time into the character especially in season two --showcasing her capabilities and personality in a way that would’ve may her one of the more prominent CSI’s. However, it seems the subsequent focus on “romance” as well as AB’s personal circumstances have led to Lindsay’s role as a CSI taking a backseat and becoming almost secondary. And with the acceleration of the romance, events that might’ve played out over a couple of years were condensed into half a season, robbing the character of more development within her primary storyline. Now, with the romance moving into a different phase, they are left with a character whose contribution as a CSI has drifted more into a supporting, almost background sort of role. So what are they to do – invest more time into “redeveloping” Lindsay the CSI again or give the screen time to another character like Hawkes who hasn’t received as much attention in the intervening years? Overall, it doesn’t seem they’re using Lindsay the CSI much differently than in the previous two years, but the romantic storyline is just in a different place now.
     
  13. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    That does make a lot of sense, except…well, I actually think tonight’s episode was a good example of what I mentioned above.
    She gets quite a bit of screentime, literally all of it with Danny . In all fairness, they were just working, and that made it more palatable for me; I don’t think I even heard one “cutesy” nickname. And it wasn’t that I didn’t enjoy seeing her, but it didn’t feel to me like screentime was at all even across the board; I’m thinking that if they’re going to spend the screentime on her anyway, why not at least have her share the scene(s) with someone else, someone we haven’t seen a lot from in a while.
    Even showing her relationship (professional or personal) with other characters somewhat develops her own further, and to me that seems like a two-birds-one-stone solution. To be honest, if Lindsay’s screentime is just going to go over to DL, I’d rather it go toward developing Hawkes/Adam/Sid – it just seems moronic to me if they (TPTB) seriously feel it has to be an either-or choice. The romance-storyline may be in a different place, but by TPTB’s account it’s in a relatively stable one – nothing much changes from episode-to-episode, so it doesn’t seem necessary to have Lindsay’s every episode remind us that it exists.
     
  14. Curiosity

    Curiosity Prime Suspect

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    I see your point, and to some degree, I think the wrtiers have been doing that (i.e.,trying to expand her interactions to other team members) on occasion. One recent example is the scenes from "The Formula" when Lindsay, Adam, and Danny were working on putting the car back together -- good team camaraderie and teasing of Adam (although we also got a "Montana" reference). And I think there are other episodes in which Lindsay has had good scenes with Hawkes. But overall, that has not been the trend.


    The problem I see is that Lindsay really doesn't have a strong and/or unique connection with the other characters -- at least not one that has been effectively developed. Yes, they like each other and are a family of sorts, but they're not all close to each other in the same way. And the one character that Lindsay could have a unique relationship with -- Stella, because they are the only two women on the team -- is not one that the writers haved tended to pair her with as a rule (although we have seen some examples this season). And because they have neglected Lindsay's interactions with other characters over the seasons, seems like they tend to default to the connection that is most developed, the one with Danny. They can break the cycle by pairing her with other people and developing those relationships, but that gets back to my earlier point -- that I am not sure they want to spend the time or even have the time to spend given the size of the cast and other priorities.
     
  15. Robin

    Robin Prime Suspect

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    Just watched this online tonight. Tried to watch it over the weekend but the feed on CBS.com was so choppy it annoyed me so it took me awhile to get back to it.

    I liked this episode.

    I was happy that there were two separate Flack and Danny scenes. **squeals like a little girl** My favorite was in the retirement home when the old lady was flirting with them.

    I got a kick out of the SuperMac scene, when they were out on the street and he spotted the big guy with the gun and brought him down.

    Although, I wonder why they didn't get that kid any kind of medical treatment. Unless there is no medical treatment you can do to a person who has been given LSD.
     

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