Do you believe in God?

[talkingtocactus]

Just a suggestion, read the Bible

Thing is... I have read it. The only thing it did was further convince me that the god concept is logically impossible and that religious dogma is dangerous.

Besides, there's no reason for me to believe that the Bible is any more or less divinely inspired than, say, the Koran, or any more or less spiritually valid than, say, the Sutras, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

^ this, basically.

That's sad for me, that one feels that way who do you think Adam and Eve were? & where did they sprout from?, and Moses and Noah, the list is endless.

as for this ^ - i also don't believe adam and eve existed, i don't believe humans "sprouted from" anything, i believe that we evolved slowly and over a very long period, we didn't just appear suddenly. i also believe that evolution is far more scientifically quantifiable/falsifiable (according to popper's theory of falsifiability, which means that actually it's pretty proveable, it's just that popper decided to take the backwards approach! - this is a better explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability) than any religious theory. the problem of course is that people see the word "theory" in evolutionary science and assume that it's meant in the general sense of the word (ie "unproven conjecture") and not the scientific sense (ie "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge"). the fact is that the word theory when applied to science has a much stronger foundation than it does in a more general sense.

as for moses and the like - i actually do believe in those people, hell, i even believe that jesus existed. however, i don't believe that they were anything more than people, they didn't have divine power or anything, they were, at best, nothing more than very convincing. there is definite historical evidence for moses and the exodus, it's there in egyptian documents (well, stone tablets mainly). i believe that there was a guy living in nazareth called jesus - i don't believe he was divinely born or immaculately conceived, nor do i think he was divine in any way shape or form - he may well have been a convincing speaker though, basically exactly like mohammed in the islamic faith, he was a very savvy guy who managed to get people's attention with his ideas. evidence for noah seems a tad unsubstantiated. i actually think the idea of a great flood seems totally plausible, something like a tsunami (which we now know, of course, comes from natural causes like undersea volcano eruptions, tectonic shifts etc) could account for the fact that there are so many apocryphal stories about a great flood. however, i believe that this is all these are: apocryphal stories. the bible was written a long time after the event(s), and was written from stories that were handed down over generations by word of mouth - which is exactly what happened in regions and languages all over the world, but inevitably stories get changed over time (and definitely over centuries) and they become legendary or mythical so that when they are finally written down they're of epic proportions. this also explains the fact that the great flood story of noah fame is present in the apocrypha of many communities, tribes and religions from all over the world - it suggests that there *was* a flood, but each community experienced it differently (which for me cancels out the idea of having all the animals of the world on board the ark, because how would noah, in the middle east, have access to the millions of species all over the world?).

ok, that was something of a digression, sorry...

 

[Shytownmofo]

I believe in God, even though I'm not uber-religious. If there's any religion that I specifically follow, it's the Spiritualist religion

http://www.nsac.org/spiritualism.htm

Basically, I believe in God, an Infinite Intelligence/Higher Power, and I believe in Karma, that what you do comes back to you, both the good and the bad. I also believe that the highest morality is the Golden Rule, to do unto others as you would have them to do unto you. I do believe in an afterlife and reincarnation, and that how you live in this life affects what happens to you in the next.

Honestly, some of the hardcore religious fundamentalists offend me. All the Hellfire and Damnmation if you don't think like they do irks me to no end, because it seems as though they're looking down their nose at people.

I also feel that the various religious institutions, such as the Catholic Church do more harm than good. The Catholic Church is the biggest institution in the world. They own the most land and have gobs and gobs of money, and they use it for I don't know what. Plus, the various churches and religious institutions are responsible for untold numbers of war, and that there has been uncounted suffering caused by some of the policies of these institutions. Not the least being the sanctioned sexism, racism and homophobia, plus the turning a blind eye and deaf ear to many genocides over the centuries.

However, some of the hardcore athiests tick me off as well. they are basically singing the same song as the fundies, albeit in a different key. I've heard people go on and on about the non-existence of God, and calling religious faith "Stupid" and equating Jesus with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

My thing is, believe if you believe, if you don't that's cool as well, just treat others with respect and treat others how you'd wish to be treated. No need for so much of the complicated mess, especially when you study world religions, and realize that once you strip away the theology, many of the nuts and bolts are very similar.

 

[Ginnna]

Shytown, I'm with you on almost all of this. While I don't believe in any deity or higher power, I like the golden rule and dislike religious fundamentalism and extremism. I'm not a fan of the gigantor institutions either. Treating others with respect is also really important, though the only respect I automatically give is in regarding everyone as the human being that they are. Anything beyond that has to be earned.

Respecting beliefs, though, that's a different story. If a religious claim is ridiculous then there's no reason for me to respect it. I certainly respect a person's right to believe as they see fit, but that doesn't mean I have to walk on eggshells when it comes to the belief itself. There's no reason to put religious belief on a pedestal and decree that it is beyond reproach.

Personally I do find religious faith to be epistemologically void (not "stupid", just... lacking any reliable mechanism by which the truth value in any claim/concept may be evaluated). I do equate the plausibility of the existence of Jesus & Yahweh with the plausibility of the existence of Santa Claus, Darth Vader, fairies, Quetzalcoatl, Krishna, Dionysus, Mithra, Kokopelli, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Cthulhu, etc. These are the conclusions I've reached in all my time pondering the "big questions" and "big picture" and I see no reason to stop myself from expressing them.

Again, I would never EVER dream of telling people that they're not allowed to believe and worship as they see fit (so long as they respect individual rights and both local and federal laws)... but if I've critically examined their beliefs and found those beliefs to be preposterous, I shouldn't have to pretend otherwise. Religious freedom doesn't shield anybody from free speech.

Also, I'm all about religious freedom... but I'm also a big fan of secular law and individual liberty. Religious liberty does have limits. The dictates of someone elses faith shouldn't have any legal sway over my life. I should be free to accept and reject the tenets and standards of any faith(s) I so choose without being forced by law to accept or reject any of it. Basically, legislating faith infringes upon my religious freedom and that pisses me off. Not sure if this is something you actually meant to touch upon. If not, I'm sorry for the rant!

 

[talkingtocactus]

I also feel that the various religious institutions, such as the Catholic Church do more harm than good. The Catholic Church is the biggest institution in the world. They own the most land and have gobs and gobs of money, and they use it for I don't know what. Plus, the various churches and religious institutions are responsible for untold numbers of war, and that there has been uncounted suffering caused by some of the policies of these institutions. Not the least being the sanctioned sexism, racism and homophobia, plus the turning a blind eye and deaf ear to many genocides over the centuries.

this i definitely agree with!

However, some of the hardcore athiests tick me off as well. they are basically singing the same song as the fundies, albeit in a different key. I've heard people go on and on about the non-existence of God, and calling religious faith "Stupid" and equating Jesus with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

this, on the other hand, i'm less convinced about. i do believe that people should be free to believe in whatever they want, however, i also think that beliefs should be backed up by hard evidence, and personally i don't think religious beliefs are. i don't consider myself an atheist, to me that suggests that there is a deity to not believe in, which i don't think is the case, so i'm an antitheist. i would never go around demanding that people not believe in something they believe in, no matter how tenuous i thought it was. i'm not some kind of antitheist preacher, but i do feel it's important to acknowledge the scientific/epistemological flaws in certain beliefs.

i was going to comment more on Spooky's post, but it's easier to just say i agree with it 100%.

 

[_Hush_]

I only glanced over the last page, but I wanted to clarify that the Old Testament is indeed myth, just as the gods on mount Olympus. Jesus, as a living being (not Christ) on the other hand was not mythical. There are still actual Roman records of him. Basically, there are three things we know about him for certain: a) He existed, b) he died on the cross and c) he had a brother named Jacob.

So I get that christianity is based on a few facts, and no doubt that Jesus was an inspiring man, but the leap of making him godlike, is a step too far.

 

[Ginnna]

I only glanced over the last page, but I wanted to clarify that the Old Testament is indeed myth, just as the gods on mount Olympus. Jesus, as a living being (not Christ) on the other hand was not mythical. There are still actual Roman records of him. Basically, there are three things we know about him for certain: a) He existed, b) he died on the cross and c) he had a brother named Jacob.

So I get that christianity is based on a few facts, and no doubt that Jesus was an inspiring man, but the leap of making him godlike, is a step too far.

If there's enough evidence to suggest the existence of an historical Jesus who claimed to be the son of a deity and was executed for starting a new religious movement then I'm cool with that. I haven't seen the evidence, but if it exists I'd be more than happy to look it over. So far I've read conflicting reports ("there is evidence for an historical Jesus" vs "there's no reliable evidence for an historical Jesus").

But like I said (and like you said), the existence of an historical Jesus is no reason to assume that he was a supernatural creature.

i was going to comment more on Spooky's post, but it's easier to just say i agree with it 100%.

:lol: Awesome! Nice to know I'm on the same proverbial page as someone else here.

 

[Dragonfly]

I only glanced over the last page, but I wanted to clarify that the Old Testament is indeed myth, just as the gods on mount Olympus. Jesus, as a living being (not Christ) on the other hand was not mythical. There are still actual Roman records of him. Basically, there are three things we know about him for certain: a) He existed, b) he died on the cross and c) he had a brother named Jacob.

So I get that christianity is based on a few facts, and no doubt that Jesus was an inspiring man, but the leap of making him godlike, is a step too far.

If there's enough evidence to suggest the existence of an historical Jesus who claimed to be the son of a deity and was executed for starting a new religious movement then I'm cool with that. I haven't seen the evidence, but if it exists I'd be more than happy to look it over. So far I've read conflicting reports ("there is evidence for an historical Jesus" vs "there's no reliable evidence for an historical Jesus").

But like I said (and like you said), the existence of an historical Jesus is no reason to assume that he was a supernatural creature.

I pretty much agree. I'm willing to believe that Jesus existed. But do I think he was the Son of God? No. I've actually wondered before if he wasn't the world's first cult-leader-type-person Not that I'm saying Christianity is a cult, of course. Just... Oh, I hope at least one person can understand what I'm saying and translate :lol:

I was raised in a family that went to church every Sunday. I never questioned it. That was just the way things were. But around the time I was 16-18-ish I started asking questions :lol:

 

[Ginnna]

I was raised in a family that went to church every Sunday. I never questioned it. That was just the way things were. But around the time I was 16-18-ish I started asking questions :lol:

Sounds a lot like me, actually. Raised Catholic, mass every Sunday, Religious Education classes once a week, praying and rosaries and the whole thing. I was too young and too indoctrinated to ask questions.

Except... as I got older, my critical thinking skills kind of took over my impulse to go with the flow of everything I'd been told. I asked more and more questions, and the folks in church and in my R.E. classes couldn't answer them. I was actually told to stop questioning so much in class one day. That struck me all sorts of wrong.

Don't question? We should ALWAYS be asking questions! We stop asking and then we get stuck with whatever we've got... which may very well be flawed/wrong.

I was about 16 when I went through my big "transformation" from Catholic to atheist. Shocked the crap out of everyone I knew. Now that they've been aware of it for over a decade it's just another facet of what makes me me.

 

[Vildis]

Sorry for being stupid, but what kind of questions did you start to ask when you were about 16-18-ish? I am just curious, as I have always been an atheist. I have never really been asking questions about any kind of religion or "God", as I haven't been interested or believed in it.

 

[Dragonfly]

Sorry for being stupid, but what kind of questions did you start to ask when you were about 16-18-ish? I am just curious, as I have always been an atheist. I have never really been asking questions about any kind of religion or "God", as I haven't been interested or believed in it.

I think the biggest question I asked was, why?. I was never really told why I should believe any of it, just that I should. But when I really began to think about it, I couldn't find any reason that was good enough for me, personally, to believe what I was learning. I guess I was looking for solid proof or something.

My two closest friends are very spiritual. They don't belong to any religion per se, but they definitely believe in God. There are times when I wish I could believe in something like that, or take things in Faith the way they do, but my mind just won't let me.

 

[_Hush_]

^ A bit similar here. I was wondering why people were putting words in my mouth about what to believe or not. I need a whole lot of convincing before I believe something, with actual substantial proof. Christianity, basicallly any religion or faith in a higher being, or a higher existence, with any form of an afterlife (hell, heaven, 70 virgins, or rebirth etc.) have absolutely nothing that I could use to make a better, fuller life for myself, or make myself a better person for it.

I do know that I'm a good person, even without a beliefsystem. I've been called a pessimist (I prefer the term realist), because I have no faith whatsoever in mankind, and I don't trust easily. But still, that doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me enjoy my life to the fullest, without fear or need to please an upper being. I enjoy the occasional sin (within limits ), and feel absolutely no remorse for it.

This feels more like a rant, my apologies, carry on now :lol:

 

[Desertwind]

Lots of opinions on here for sure. Question why are we here? to be born go to school, work, marry have children and then die, and that's itno after life seems like a real dead end [no pun intended] what would the point of us being here be? Also when Jesus died and rose after 3 days, all 12 of his apostles saw and talked to him. Were they all disillusional, or lying?, and then he vanished, where did he go? I've studied every religion I could and really loved the Jewish and Muslim ideas, and Catholicism and all Christian denominations, and they all have theories a bit varied, but all roads lead to a higher being.~

 

[_Hush_]

This is the problem with taken the bible too seriously. The bible is not a chronicle, not document providing real events. The idea of Jesus rising after three days is the normal reaction of friends, family mourning his death for three days and then realise that his message of love, of friendship should live on, even without him. That's the real message of christianity. It's not about the story itself, it's about the message behind it.

And all roads don't lead to a higher being, they lead to a higher sense of existing. Morals, ground rules, values, that's the basics of a religion. To be a kind person, to be generous, to help friends and future friends in need, that is what religion should be about.

As to why are we here? I like to believe that it's through a chain of events. That one decision in that particular moment in time that decides who/what you are. The only reason that we ask ourselves why we are here and your neighbour's cat doesn't, is because our brain has evolved to a level that no longer recides on survival, but a level that questions the world around it, and that wants to find a place in that world. There is no why here. We are a product of a species that has evolved so far, that we have become this arrogant to believe that we are here for a purpose, a reason for being.

We are here. Period. It's up to us to live that opportunity to the fullest.

 

[allmaple]

Lots of opinions on here for sure. Question why are we here? to be born go to school, work, marry have children and then die, and that's itno after life seems like a real dead end [no pun intended] what would the point of us being here be?

why isnt that enough? i have filled my life with friends, family, am working towards a career i love, see places i wanted to visit, do activities i enjoy, and try to make a difference where i can. i think that is a great life and will have no regrets when i check out. i think i will have earned a break by the end!

 

[Speedystokesgirl]

Just a suggestion, read the Bible, and this will certainly clarify things if your in doubt and pray, GOD does answer:bolian:

Just because something is written in the bible, does NOT make it fact.

They say the Bible is the 'greatest story ever told'. I think the key word here is 'story'.

I have no doubt that Jesus existed, I have doubts that he was the son of God. Like I said, I was raised a Catholic and it seems to me that most, if not all, religions are a cult in some type or another. Look at the "HeavensGate", Branch Davidians, even Manson himself, those were started by a religious zealot and convinced people to follow them.

Another example of a religion that I think is nothing more than a cult? Scientology. Here is people following the ramblings of a science fiction writer.

People will tell me I have to have faith. I do. I have faith that the sun and moon are always there, I have faith that mankind will disappointment me at times, I have faith that I will wake up everyday until the day I don't, I have faith that everyone comes into this world the same way and that we will all die when our time comes. Guess I faith in what I can see, touch, and know there is proof.

However, these are my opinions and I do believe a person can believe in whatever they want. If people believe in God, good, it's nice to have something to believe in.

ETA: Also, if the Catholic religion has so much money (which we know they do), then why do all these Catholic schools close? Because the Catholic religion won't give up that money so the leaders of the religion can have it and all the lay people, who can't afford to pay bills can't donate to the church to keep these schools open. Hmmmm, sounds like what cults do...