Debate/Dislike a Ship Thread -- CSI:NY

[Axatullux]

(NOTE: MOVED FROM A PREVIOUS THREAD)

I actually liked the GSR ship and while it's unlikely it'll be seen again since WP departed, I'm okay with how they closed it out in the end. I can understand why some disliked it though. I sometimes felt some reservations over the pairing especially with the age disparity but I like how they ultimately played it out in the end especially as shortly before Grissom left.

As for me, I've found myself violently rejecting Mac/Jo simply because I feel like it was shoved right in our faces when too many of us simply still couldn't fully recover from the news of Melina leaving over the summer. :censored::censored::angryrazz::wtf: And TPTB have a rotten nerve to shove Mac/Jo in our faces, after how we're still reeling from Stella's abrupt absence? Give me a break!

The way it was brought in left an incredibly bitter taste in my mouth especially how many were so devoted to Mac/Stella for so many years only to see it taken from us literally overnight. :scream: Thanks a lot, both TPTB :censored: and MK! :angryrazz: A choice now between drinking sour milk or ingesting dishwashing liquid. :wtf:

It took me three seasons to embrace Mac/Stella as a pair and with Stella leaving, barring her return if the show ends, I've been violently against the idea of Mac being paired up with Jo, hence my angry attitude in some areas on the forum over it. I really tried to watch the show just recently but could not do so because of Stella's absence. I just couldn't. MK should NOT have left like this. We had been loyal SMacked fans for years but I just can't help but feel that MK slapped us all in the face. It is this reason that I felt my respect for her collapse into a pile of burning debris and only starting to slowly, slowly recover somewhat.

It reminds me when I was a giant Janet Jackson fan only to see my respect for her at the time crumble when she tumbled from Rhythm Nation and Velvet Rope to the debacle of Damita Jo and the worst of All For You before she rebounded afterwards. I feel the same way towards MK. Both are huge goddesses IMO but they both made moves that I saw as really poor moves that made me lose respect for them for a while before they rebounded. Anyway that's for a whole different thread.

At this point, in terms of romantic pairing, I'd take Mac with either Peyton (Okay with it) or even Aubrey (Reacts with a response similar to the first winds of winter) or not going out with anybody at all. Any of the three I would take over over Jo Danville (Gets out barf bag) any day. Maybe in season 9, if CSI NY survives long enough, I'll accept Mac/Jo. Until then, keep them at least Grand Canyon's width AWAY from each other.

Did Mac and Stella have an angry falling out to the point that their friendship was damaged beyond repair, to the point that Stella left for a different city? Or did Mac help Stella in her move to her new job and visit her at least once in the five months since "Vacation Getaway". Does Mac still speak to her on the phone long distance? For crying out loud, please, we want to know how it all played out in the end. Don't leave us permanently hanging like this. It's no wonder MK leaving left fans so angry, disappointed and deeply embittered to the point they stopped watching CSI NY altogether.

An occassional reference to Stella or Mac mentioning her to Jo once in a while would do a lot to repair the harm MK's leaving left on the series.

The shock of it all has also been enough that it has spread to other ships elsewhere on the franchise. For example, I've also started to become increasingly skeptical of the Eric/Calleigh pairing as of lately since this season, I've seen it become increasingly juvenile and reducing the quality of both characters. I've always detected a good amount of attraction between them but as of lately, it has become closer to looking like the most banal of Danny/Lindsay than to either Grissom/Sara or Mac/Stella. If they truly have broken them up, then please, oh please, break them up and be done with it! Sheesh.

I personally also think that the main characters should be with background characters or those we don't see much, if at all. With the decline of TPTB's Midas Touch, and the fact that the shows are incredibly long in the tooth, it may be better to pair up characters with recurring characters or off-screen characters than between main ones.

That's my two-hundred dollars.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Mac and Jo have been shown as nothing but friendly co-workers just like Stella and Mac were. I don't see how that qualifies as having them "shoved in our faces" ship wise. As for "being slapped in the face" by MK, it doesn't make any sense to have such bitterness for an actress because she chose to move on. The actors don't owe us anything as viewers. This is their job and people change jobs all the time. There was never any indication TPTB would ever "go there" with Mac/Stella, just like there's no indication at this point they will "go there" with Mac/Jo. All the hate being spewed just makes no sense to me based on what's been shown in canon for these ships. They've been nothing but subtext seen by viewers and not a part of the show.

The same holds true for having Mac mention Stella on the show now that she's gone. It wouldn't make any sense because they were never together in the first place. People move on all the time and their friends don't constantly bring them up to people who never knew them (ie, Jo). Again, the show doesn't owe shippers anything. The fact that you saw something that wasn't there in canon is fine, but expecting what you saw in subtext to show up on the show makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Lori K.]

Mac and Jo have been shown as nothing but friendly co-workers just like Stella and Mac were. I don't see how that qualifies as having them "shoved in our faces" ship wise.

While she may still have feelings for her ex, Sela believes Jo "must move forward." With Mac, perhaps? "There's definitely a subtle flirtation," she says. Even Gary, who prefers the show's focus to remain on the crimes, says that "Mac's captivated by Jo's wonderful Southern charm. She has a unique way about her that is infectious."

She's pretty proud of herself!!:lol:

And Russ will pick up on that feeling, says exec producer Pam Veasey, who's in no rush to hook Jo up with either man just yet. "The audience will give us the signal when to go forward, but we like that there's chemistry and I think you'll see it evolve," she says. Signs of Jo and Mac's bond will be evident even before Russ arrives when the CBS series celebrates its 150th episode on December 3. It's a cheery first New York Christmas for Jo — aside from a bleeding woman in Central Park and a guy who dies in a department-store window display. New York, adds Veasey, "is so romantic in the winter."

"Gush" *sniff *sigh* pass the kleenex I feel a tear forming..

People move on all the time and their friends don't constantly bring them up to people who never knew them (ie, Jo).

Nobody is asking for constant recognition...Criminal Minds were considerate to there fans in regards to A.J.Cooks character maybe that is what is keeping that show in there Wedsnesday time slot ...the viewers received much more respect.

Again, the show doesn't owe shippers anything.

We know and they let us know that in the very first episode....thats why we left!!:lol: And since this is the "debate dislike a ship thread" to keep on topic I might add my heart will always belong to SMACK. :adore:

​

​

http://talk.csifiles.com/member.php?u=17618

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

http://talk.csifiles.com/#​

​

​

​

 

[Axatullux]

Man oh man, the talk of Mac and Jo being yes, SHOVED IN OUR FACES, makes me so happy I choose to kick CSI NY to the curb and let it die in the cold winter night.

Even Mac/Peyton or Mac/Aubrey are light years above Mac/Jo anyday! :censored:

I still stand by my comments. In terms of romance or pairing, keep Mac and Jo on opposite sides of the Grand Canyon, please!. :scream: Maybe when Season 8 rolls around, if the show survives, I'll embrace it. Until then, absolutely not! I stand by my words.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Subtle flirtation does not equal a canon relationship and it certainly does not equal shoving a relationship down viewers' throats.

But to keep this on topic, I have to say Mac/Jo makes way more sense than Mac/Stella ever did. Mac and Stella were close friends who had a familial relationship. They never flirted or acted like there was anything more to their relationship than a strong friendship. I can much better understand Mac being romantically interested in someone he just met than someone he's had a strong friendship with and brotherly familiarity to for decades. Look at how at ease Mac is around Jo. He was never that at ease with Stella. Jo brings out a side of Mac that Stella never could, just like Sela brings out a different side of Gary's acting that Melina never did. There just wasn't romantic chemistry between the two. Sparks have flown from the beginning with Jo and that wasn't because it was scripted. It's something that happened organically and I will be very interested to see if they develop it or if they choose to just keep them fun, flirty co-workers.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

Subtle flirtation does not equal a canon relationship and it certainly does not equal shoving a relationship down viewers' throats.

Agreed. I mean for example look at Morgan and Garcia on Criminal Minds. They are constantly "flirting" with each other, but she's dating someone else and its clear they are just friends and flirting is just their fun friendly banter.

Personally, I think NY has focused more on a possible Jo/Flack pairing than a Mac/Jo one. I've seen more between Jo and Flack that's shippy than M/J. I mean honestly, they're just trying to stir up buzz with that article. I don't think its anything to worry about. Most likely they're never going to put the lead male and the lead female together (unless its on the series finale). But Flack with Jo is always a possibility.

 

[hiphugger17]

My 2 cents...

I loved Mac and Stella. I thought Gary and Melina had great chemistry and I don't know if the writers or directors ever told them to do certain scenes in a specific way or if it was just Gary and Melina but for ME there was certainly subtext and I could've seen them going into romantic territory.

PerfectAnomaly
I can much better understand Mac being romantically interested in someone he just met than someone he's had a strong friendship with and brotherly familiarity to for decades.

I understand were you are coming from but the same argument could be made from the opposite point of view. You see, I can understand how someone could be romantically interested in someone he's had a strong friendship with for a long time because for me a good friendship builds for a more stronger foundation in a romantic relationship. Though that's not to say that I don't see him able to develop an interest in Jo. I think that given that Melina chose to leave we'll never know if the writers would've gone there with Mac and Stella ever. The thing is she did leave and that's that.

As for Mac and Jo I certainly see chemistry between them. IMO that's because I think Gary and Sela have amazing onscreen chemistry. However I don't want it to develop into something more serious than flirting (at least now) because Mac just had the Peyton/Aubrey storyline and I think he could do without a romantic interest for a while. Plus Jo just came onboard and I want her to develop more before getting into a romantic plot. Also like GregNickRyanFan stated I think Jo and Flack would be amazing. They are both so much fun to watch separately and together. I think that Eddie and Sela have great chemistry also and I am really intrigued as to what they would do if they were to be given this type of storyline. But for now I would like them to keep the fun and the flirty scenes and not go any further than that.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

PerfectAnomaly
I can much better understand Mac being romantically interested in someone he just met than someone he's had a strong friendship with and brotherly familiarity to for decades.

I understand were you are coming from but the same argument could be made from the opposite point of view. You see, I can understand how someone could be romantically interested in someone he's had a strong friendship with for a long time because for me a good friendship builds for a more stronger foundation in a romantic relationship. Though that's not to say that I don't see him able to develop an interest in Jo. I think that given that Melina chose to leave we'll never know if the writers would've gone there with Mac and Stella ever. The thing is she did leave and that's that.

But that is where the subtext comes into play. If you see subtext then you can see why they might have developed into a romantic relationship. But what was shown in canon between Mac and Stella was never romantic/flirty so for there to suddenly be a romantic interest makes absolutely no sense to me. Jo and Mac have been flirty since day one -even people who don't want them together have acknowledged that - so IMO it makes sense if they take it further. I'm not saying they are going to take it further and I certainly won't be disapointed if they don't take it further because I love their dynamic the way it is now too. But from logical standpoint based on what we've seen in canon, it would've never made sense for Mac and Stella to get together whereas it would make sense for Mac and Jo to get together.

 

[hiphugger17]

I'm trying to think of exact moments were I thought there was subtext or flirty undertones between M/S but I wasn't a hardcore Smacked shipper so I can't list episodes and exact moments. I do remember when I started watching season one always thinking they would end up together because there was always a smile, look, hug, kiss, or them going somewhere together. I guess some can attribute that to just friendship while others can see it as potential. It's similar to Jo in that some can see a flirty attitude in Jo towards Mac while others can see that it's just part of who Jo is. She has a fun, flirty personality and has been flirty with Flack, Mac, and even Adam.

I do understand that maybe a lot of M/S shippers have taken this moments (smiles, looks, etc.) as romantic canon when in fact it's not. There was never a conversation between them or a kiss or something more difinitive. But I do think that there was a lot that could be interpreted as something more.

PerfectAnomaly
But from logical standpoint based on what we've seen in canon, it would've never made sense for Mac and Stella to get together whereas it would make sense for Mac and Jo to get together.

Is there a specific moment you are thinking about between Jo and Mac? Because as far as canon I haven't seen anything too definitive to indicate romantic subtext. Just Jo being Jo and Gary and Sela having great chemistry. I'd like to know if you have a specific comment or moment in mind .

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

One specific example I can think of between Mac/Jo without having to go back and watch the episodes is her playfully mentioning to him she worked in a burlesque club and then walking away while he had a definite look of curiostiy on his face. It turned out later we learned she was their accountant, but that teasing that she may have done other things and Mac's reaction to it was a definite moment of flirtation.

 

[Lori K.]

Look at how at ease Mac is around Jo. He was never that at ease with Stella

Yea your right he looks pretty distraught here!:lol:

I'm trying to think of exact moments were I thought there was subtext or flirty undertones between M/S

Please see above photo!

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Look at how at ease Mac is around Jo. He was never that at ease with Stella

Yea your right he looks pretty distraught here!:lol:

He and Stella had a good FRIENDSHIP, there is no doubt about that. But as far as being at work and being at ease with someone he hasn't been friends with for decades, Jo has brought out that side of him. He'd never be that way with someone who he didn't know well in the past. Hell, he's not that way with the rest of the team who he has known for years. Jo has completely disarmed him and made him more enjoyable to watch.

ETA: If being together and smiling qualifies as "flirty subtext" then every person on the team flirts with every other person on the team all the damn time.

 

[Lori K.]

AHEM...HHHMMM Where to begin...

I do remember when I started watching season one always thinking they would end up together because there was always a smile, look, hug, kiss, or them going somewhere together. I guess some can attribute that to just friendship while others can see it as potential. It's similar to Jo in that some can see a flirty attitude in Jo towards Mac while others can see that it's just part of who Jo is.

I really dont think it can be said any better then this
Added to the fact stated that she is that way with all the boys:lol:

as romantic canon when in fact it's not.

This termanology keeps coming up... not everyone is saying there "canon" and those who disagree keep referring to this anology to prove there point.

He and Stella had a good FRIENDSHIP, there is no doubt about that

Compounded with:

I understand were you are coming from but the same argument could be made from the opposite point of view. You see, I can understand how someone could be romantically interested in someone he's had a strong friendship with for a long time because for me a good friendship builds for a more stronger foundation in a romantic relationship

Where some of us have our conclusions based on. Not everyone sees the same thing and the reasons that formed there opinions on the relationship to begin with, but to try and talk someone out of it because you just dont happen to see it yourself cant work. IE:

One specific example I can think of between Mac/Jo without having to go back and watch the episodes is her playfully mentioning to him she worked in a burlesque club and then walking away while he had a definite look of curiostiy on his face.

Based on this example if Lindsey would have said that to Mac, or Jo would have said it to Lindsay or Jo would have said it to me or any of my coworkers would have said such a thing, they would have gotten the same reaction. It was not something you just throw out there without expecting a response. She didnt say what her main job was at the place because it would not have garnered a response such as the one she received if she would have just said she "kept the books". You see what you want to see in that statement because you like there character interaction and delve into the possibility of more . I on the other hand did not get any thing more from it then as I stated. But that does not mean what you have concluded in your mind is not there and I will not try to tell you it isnt there cause I dont live in your head and frankly dont try to read peoples minds and try to tell them what to think. Besides you would not want me up there anyway because I think I would annoy you:lol:

 

[hiphugger17]

I think it all comes down to what each of us define as canon in a romantic couple. I think a couple is canon when there is a conversation stating there is interest, a very obvious physical moment (kiss not on the cheek, bed scene, etc) or a statement about romantic feelings expressed to a third party. To me that's canon because the writers have obviously stated that they are going somewhere with this pairing in the romantic department. Other than that IMO it's just open to interpretation and things like the chemistry between actors, the way the actor/actress presented the scene, etc factor in and the audience interprets it.

I see the scene with the burlesque comment just like PerfectAnomaly saw it. A flirty scene that was quite fun to watch. However, I also know that a lot of people can and will just say that it was just Jo being Jo. She's flirty and likes to have fun messing with people's heads. She enjoys playing tricks and some can say it was just her messing around with Mac and nothing more.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

One specific example I can think of between Mac/Jo without having to go back and watch the episodes is her playfully mentioning to him she worked in a burlesque club and then walking away while he had a definite look of curiostiy on his face.

Based on this example if Lindsey would have said that to Mac, or Jo would have said it to Lindsay or Jo would have said it to me or any of my coworkers would have said such a thing, they would have gotten the same reaction. It was not something you just throw out there without expecting a response. She didnt say what her main job was at the place because it would not have garnered a response such as the one she received if she would have just said she "kept the books". You see what you want to see in that statement because you like there character interaction and delve into the possibility of more . I on the other hand did not get any thing more from it then as I stated. But that does not mean what you have concluded in your mind is not there and I will not try to tell you it isnt there cause I dont live in your head and frankly dont try to read peoples minds and try to tell them what to think. Besides you would not want me up there anyway because I think I would annoy you:lol:

I do find it very interesting that even the most hard core SMACked shippers have seen Mac/Jo as flirting and that is one example that has been used. The actors have seen it as flirting, TPTB has seen it as flirting, even people who aren't fans of the pairing have seen it as flirting. There comes a time when it no longer becomes a matter of seeing subtext and becomes a matter of being in denial of what is really happening on the show. I can say that through subtext I don't think Danny and Lindsay really love each other and only got married because Lindsay got knocked up, but that isn't backed up by canon events. The same holds true for Mac/Jo - you can say you don't see anything romantic between the two, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are flirty with one another. Now, the fact that they are flirting in no way means they are going to become a couple on the show, but not being a couple on the show doesn't negate the fact that some of their interactions have been flirtatious.

I don't really see how saying the scene wouldn't be flirty if Jo had told Lindsay she worked in a burlesque club negates the fact that it is a flirty scene when she says it to Mac either. Of course the scene is going to come off differently if different characters were used because not all of the characters interact in the same way. And actually I think the scene would've been flirty if Jo had said it to Flack instead of Mac. So the flirtiness isn't limited to it just being Jo/Mac either.