Debate/Dislike a Ship Thread -- CSI:Miami

[Ajbuckly]

LOL ----hopefully most of you guess which ship I am on as a deckhand.

And I am not quite sure if this is the correct tread but here goes:

We have had a lot of ships on the show even near - by like Horatio and Ylena(sp?). Can you name any reasons for show adding more? For you or IYO what would a new love storyline bring to the show?

 

[Rizzoli]

I'm a little confused how people can ship for "DuCaine", Horatio and Calleigh have had maybe 10 one-on-one scenes with each-other since Season 4

 

[Delynn]

I'm a little confused how people can ship for "DuCaine", Horatio and Calleigh have had maybe one-on-one scenes with each-other since Season 4

First, I should say, I'm not a shipper of any kind. You're right, CSI:NYfan. Any positive relationship that Horatio and Calleigh had died 4 seasons ago.

However, in the first two seasons and into season three (somewhat) they had an amazing chemistry and working relationship. That's where "DuCaine" comes from. And while it was most probably plausible back then, since season 4 it's been painful to watch those two interact ... on the rare occassion that it's been allowed to happen.

 

[Rizzoli]

I wonder why David & Emily don't work together much anymore? I think CSI:Miami is the only show in which the 2 leads almost never interact

 

[silentdisco]

I'm a little confused how people can ship for "DuCaine", Horatio and Calleigh have had maybe 10 one-on-one scenes with each-other since Season 4

I never understood Calleigh/Horatio shipping either, even in the earlier seasons when they interacted more. I saw their relationship as more of a mentor/mentee, perhaps a little like a father/daughter connection rather than a romantic one.

 

[hiphugger17]

I'm a little confused how people can ship for "DuCaine", Horatio and Calleigh have had maybe 10 one-on-one scenes with each-other since Season 4

I never understood Calleigh/Horatio shipping either, even in the earlier seasons when they interacted more. I saw their relationship as more of a mentor/mentee, perhaps a little like a father/daughter connection rather than a romantic one.

Yeah I never understood that either. I'll add to what you said that I just loved Horatio and Yelina. I thought that they had wonderful chemistry and that by just looking at each other their eyes said so much about what they felt. It's a shame the writers didn't explore that further. H and Calleigh I just saw as co-workers who respected each other. I didn't see romantic chemistry either.

 

[miamirocks]

I'm a little confused how people can ship for "DuCaine", Horatio and Calleigh have had maybe 10 one-on-one scenes with each-other since Season 4

I never understood Calleigh/Horatio shipping either, even in the earlier seasons when they interacted more. I saw their relationship as more of a mentor/mentee, perhaps a little like a father/daughter connection rather than a romantic one.

Yeah I never understood that either. I'll add to what you said that I just loved Horatio and Yelina. I thought that they had wonderful chemistry and that by just looking at each other their eyes said so much about what they felt. It's a shame the writers didn't explore that further. H and Calleigh I just saw as co-workers who respected each other. I didn't see romantic chemistry either.

Since this is a debate thread, I thought I'd try to explain a bit about DuCaine from a DuCaine perspective - I can understand when people don't "see" chemistry between certain couples, it's often a personal preference. (As a side note, I personally am still like :wtf: over E/C - I never saw any "deep" chemistry - I just see it as a superficial thing, where they're both good looking, so some like to see them sleeping together. Whatever. )

As for DuCaine, in the very beginning of the series there was a HUGE amount of DuCaine fans on these boards. (I dare say many of them, even myself for awhile, were "put off" by E/C fans during Season 5-6 and left).

Even in some of the commentary from TPTB in the earlier seasons, they talked about what great chemistry David and Emily had. I could reference several episodes - from "Kill Zone" to "Broken" to "Camp Fear" in Season 1 alone - but I think a viewer is best to go back to the first 3 seasons and watch from the beginning. "Lost Son" was a pivotal moment - I always believed that DuCaine fans were about the WHOLE package: They wanted a deep, meaningful relationship where two people supported/"saved" each other and completed each other, not just some "hot fling" or awkward crush that is centered on constant drama. A relationship based on drama/almost dying every weak doesn't show much strength for a relationship. Cal and H had normal interaction each week that was good w/out the other being put in peril constantly.

I could see how some would take their interaction as father/daughter or mentor/mentee, but watching the way Cal actually AFFECTED Horatio in those early years (the way he smiled when he was around her, the easy interaction, the way he was protective of her when he was dating Hagen (ie: the "stare-down" in Season 2), the way he helped her with her father, the way they comforted each other in "Lost Son" - it seemed like a much deeper friendship than just "colleagues."

Personally, I believe one of the reasons H and Cal haven't interacted that much is b/c TPTB recognized (and this is on the record from their comments made on the DVDs in the earlier seasons) that H and Cal had serious chemistry, but they wanted to move in another (younger, hotter "sexier"??) direction by hooking up Eric and Cal. There was definitely potential for DuCaine based on their interactions in the earlier seasons, but TPTB chose to go another route (for ratings? for sexyness? IDK). I mean seriously, if "Stand Your Ground" or "All In" was made in the earlier seasons, H would've been right there for his CSI (like he was in "Double Cap," "Dispo Day" or "Under the Influence,") but instead they forced Eric to be there, and it came off as Horatio not giving a crap about his second in command. Seriously, H is there for everyone BUT Calleigh, and why? It makes no sense if you watch the earlier seasons.

I strongly disagree w/those who have badmouthed DuCaine (many of them E/C fans unfortunately, which is part of what makes that debate so volatile sometimes). For instance, I can see why people would want to see E/C hook up b/c they're both "hot" and "younger" than H, but I never saw anything deeper than sex between those two. I suppose it's about your preference - if you just want to see two people hook up, and think H and Cal would've been a "gross" hook-up, then I can see why people wouldn't want to ship them. (Although I think H is still attractive in his own way.) However, if you're looking for substance and depth, that's a totally different story, and that's where most DuCaine fans have been/are coming from. We saw their interactions in those early years and the way they supported and even changed each other, and we rooted for them.

When they were pulled apart on-screen, it was a slap in the face to us loyal viewers who were/are fans of the ship, especially since NO show on TV has the two leads interact as little as Miami does. (At one point they had gone 26 episodes w/out interacting - that's NOT normal and it's very sad - whether you like them together or not.)

To those who see H and Cal as father/daughter, I will say that I would at least like to see THAT dynamic return - right now it's as if they don't even work in the same crime lab

 

[hiphugger17]

Chemistry or lack thereof is definitely on the eye of the beholder. There will always be supporters and non-supporters for every couple in a TV show. I know there are people who ship Frank and Calleigh . I will never see what they see between those two but there's no way it's not real to them. So even though I never saw or see anything romantic between H and Cal that doesn't mean I don't believe others may see it.

The part about your post I do have to disagree with is this:

For instance, I can see why people would want to see E/C hook up b/c they're both "hot" and "younger" than H, but I never saw anything deeper than sex between those two

However, if you're looking for substance and depth, that's a totally different story, and that's where most DuCaine fans have been/are coming from.

I think it's quite unfair to just summarize the whole thing up to "young and hot" and "superficial and sex". That's not AT ALL why I ship Eric and Cal and after spending years visiting this forum I know that the majority of hiphuggers would agree with me. Just like you see a deep and profound relationship between Cal and H in the beginning I saw it between Eric and Cal. Maybe a bit more playful, yes, because they made each other smile but not at all superficial. I loved that Cal was there for him when he got so affected when the cuban girl died in "Death Grip" and nobody seemed to care. I loved that he was there for her right after Hagen shot himself. Even from season one they were close enough for him to ask her to sleep on the couch in "Wet foot dry foot". There's also the time when they apologized to each other in "Simple Man" and that quick moment was enough to make everything ok. Or the time that she got pissed because he defended her and then he just teased her about it and everything was ok. Or when Eric was pissed because they were calling into question Speed's case and she told him she trusted him with every fiber of her being. What I'm trying to say through these examples is that I fell in love with their friendship. I've always believed that a good friendship is essential for a relationship and that's what I saw between Eric and Cal. Then there's all the smiles and cute scenes like in "Grand Prix" and "High Octane", etc. But not even these scenes which I love compare to the scenes were their friendship was showcased.

So I even though I agree that H and Cal had a much closer relationship before and they shared much more I never saw it much more than a professional relationship. I do agree that it's frustrating and annoying that the leads don't talk to each other and we may never know exactly why and it must have been especially hard to their shippers.

Anyway I just wanted to comment on why I like Eric and Cal and say that it is not because I want to see them having sex and because they are young and hot.

 

[silentdisco]

Since this is a debate thread, I thought I'd try to explain a bit about DuCaine from a DuCaine perspective - I can understand when people don't "see" chemistry between certain couples, it's often a personal preference. (As a side note, I personally am still like :wtf: over E/C - I never saw any "deep" chemistry - I just see it as a superficial thing, where they're both good looking, so some like to see them sleeping together. Whatever. )

If we're debating H/C, I don't really see why it's necessary to bring E/C into the debate. They're two separate ships. But since you've brought it in, I suppose I can include them too. It can be interesting to make comparisons.

As for DuCaine, in the very beginning of the series there was a HUGE amount of DuCaine fans on these boards. (I dare say many of them, even myself for awhile, were "put off" by E/C fans during Season 5-6 and left).

I think anytime there's a polarizing aspect of the show, people are bound to feel "put off". It's also possible that the DuCaine fans left the board because they were no longer interested in the show- for various reasons, and it could include the development of the E/C relationship.

Even in some of the commentary from TPTB in the earlier seasons, they talked about what great chemistry David and Emily had. I could reference several episodes - from "Kill Zone" to "Broken" to "Camp Fear" in Season 1 alone - but I think a viewer is best to go back to the first 3 seasons and watch from the beginning.

I have seen all the earlier episodes, and I agree, David and Emily had great chemistry. To me, however, it was just a different kind of chemistry- friendship versus romance.

"Lost Son" was a pivotal moment - I always believed that DuCaine fans were about the WHOLE package: They wanted a deep, meaningful relationship where two people supported/"saved" each other and completed each other, not just some "hot fling" or awkward crush that is centered on constant drama.

Funny, that's what many E/C fans are about too.

A relationship based on drama/almost dying every weak doesn't show much strength for a relationship. Cal and H had normal interaction each week that was good w/out the other being put in peril constantly.

I think part of this is the show- in the earlier years, there wasn't as much ACTION ACTION ACTION CHASE DANGER ALMOST DEATH. Can't say I prefere it this way, either. A lot of E/C fans saw the unnecessary drama as just that- unnecessary, and something that masked the deep connection we feel that Eric and Calleigh share.

I could see how some would take their interaction as father/daughter or mentor/mentee, but watching the way Cal actually AFFECTED Horatio in those early years (the way he smiled when he was around her, the easy interaction, the way he was protective of her when he was dating Hagen (ie: the "stare-down" in Season 2), the way he helped her with her father, the way they comforted each other in "Lost Son" - it seemed like a much deeper friendship than just "colleagues."

I can agree that their relationship was more than just colleagues. But I still saw it as a strong friendship, not one that had the potential for romance.

Personally, I believe one of the reasons H and Cal haven't interacted that much is b/c TPTB recognized (and this is on the record from their comments made on the DVDs in the earlier seasons) that H and Cal had serious chemistry, but they wanted to move in another (younger, hotter "sexier"??) direction by hooking up Eric and Cal.

I suppose this is where DuCaine and E/C shippers differ- we tend to feel that the reason TPTB began to explore E/C is because they saw the connection and chemistry Calleigh had with Eric.

I mean seriously, if "Stand Your Ground" or "All In" was made in the earlier seasons, H would've been right there for his CSI (like he was in "Double Cap," "Dispo Day" or "Under the Influence,") but instead they forced Eric to be there, and it came off as Horatio not giving a crap about his second in command. Seriously, H is there for everyone BUT Calleigh, and why? It makes no sense if you watch the earlier seasons.[/QUOTE]

Even as an E/C shipper who liked to see Eric there for Calleigh during her difficult times, it did strike me as odd that Horatio wasn't there too. Cal is his second-in-command, and they've worked together for a long time, so it would only be natural that he'd be there for her.

I strongly disagree w/those who have badmouthed DuCaine (many of them E/C fans unfortunately, which is part of what makes that debate so volatile sometimes).

I think it's only volatile if someone (on any side, I'm not trying to point fingers here) starts to get nasty. Yes, many E/C fans don't like the idea of DuCaine, but it's not all E/C fans that are "badmouthing" it. It also depends on your definition of "badmouthing"- I don't think I'm "badmouthing" DuCaine here, because I'm trying to engage in a respectful debate. I think it's best to try to avoid making generalizations about groups that support or don't support a relationship.

For instance, I can see why people would want to see E/C hook up b/c they're both "hot" and "younger" than H, but I never saw anything deeper than sex between those two. I suppose it's about your preference - if you just want to see two people hook up, and think H and Cal would've been a "gross" hook-up, then I can see why people wouldn't want to ship them. (Although I think H is still attractive in his own way.) However, if you're looking for substance and depth, that's a totally different story, and that's where most DuCaine fans have been/are coming from. We saw their interactions in those early years and the way they supported and even changed each other, and we rooted for them.

See, I think E/C fans and DuCaine fans are more similar than you think- for many of us, it's not just about seeing two "hot people" hook up. We see a connection between the two (that obviously not everyone sees, which is fine), and felt like it was a natural progression for them to make the jump from friends to lovers. Yes, many of us see that they're both attractive and make a handsome couple, but it's not just about that.

When they were pulled apart on-screen, it was a slap in the face to us loyal viewers who were/are fans of the ship, especially since NO show on TV has the two leads interact as little as Miami does. (At one point they had gone 26 episodes w/out interacting - that's NOT normal and it's very sad - whether you like them together or not.)

I agree- it is sad that H and Calleigh have interacted so little. It's not that I disliked their friendship, because I didn't. I thought it added to the strong dynamic of the show. But with the way things are going, it really hurts the show for these two to interact so little. And it is very confusing.

 

[miamirocks]

Hey all I certainly appreciate the civilized/friendly feedback - sometimes I take things a bit too "personally" where DuCaine is involved, and I just felt like I had to defend this couple I believed in for so long but that have been totally pulled apart by TPTB. Anyhow, onto the comments

hiphugger17:

I think it's quite unfair to just summarize the whole thing up to "young and hot" and "superficial and sex". That's not AT ALL why I ship Eric and Cal and after spending years visiting this forum I know that the majority of hiphuggers would agree with me. Just like you see a deep and profound relationship between Cal and H in the beginning I saw it between Eric and Cal.

silentdisco:

See, I think E/C fans and DuCaine fans are more similar than you think- for many of us, it's not just about seeing two "hot people" hook up. We see a connection between the two (that obviously not everyone sees, which is fine), and felt like it was a natural progression for them to make the jump from friends to lovers. Yes, many of us see that they're both attractive and make a handsome couple, but it's not just about that.

I suppose that was just my POV on things, and from reading a lot of E/C fans' reactions to certain E/C scenes/interactions. I personally feel like all I hear about w/them is how hot they are. Certainly, I'm sure there are E/C fans who see more than that, and I appreciate your own examples - gosh knows I could do a laundry list of my own about DuCaine from Seasons 1-4, though I'll spare you all (at least for now )

What I mean to say about Eric and Calleigh, and what doesn't always come across b/c I'm such a die-hard DuCaine fan, is that I really liked their friendship and how they trusted/helped each other, at least through Season 5. I don't deny the friendliness - I just wish it had stopped there. (I personally was touched at the scenes by Eric's bedside in "Man Down" - I thought Emily did a beautiful job conveying Cal's emotions for her friend.)

However, just as E/C fans see H and Cal as just friends or colleagues, I too never saw anything more than friendship w/Eric and Cal. Or rather, I thought that if they brought sex into the equation, it would cheapen their friendship. B/c of Eric's "playboy" style, I never liked him much, but always loved the way he respected Cal and wasn't sexual w/her, unlike he was w/almost every other woman (aside from Alexx). He would always make sexual side comments about women, and they even carried that into the Season 8 premier between him and Cal - I really find that to be a complete turn-off and very chauvinistic. Also, I really hated that scene in the lockerroom (can't remember the name of the epi, but I think it was Season 7), where Eric was talking to Cal about how "it" keeps happening - it seemed kind of demeaning to me and I just didn't like the way they interacted when it came to the "sex" part of their relationship.

You know how some people are hesitant to "cross the line" b/c they're friends, and are afraid crossing the line will ruin the friendship - to me, this is what happened w/E/C. You are certainly more than free to disagree, but it's just IMHO. I look at how their relationship changed their own professional behavior (covering for each other, lying in some cases, etc.); I look at how it changed their relationship w/the team (ganging up on Ryan, Cal never interacting w/H anymore b/c she was always w/Eric, etc.); and how it changed them as individuals (Cal seemed much more high-strung and Eric way too smug and macho for me.)

hiphugger17:

So I even though I agree that H and Cal had a much closer relationship before and they shared much more I never saw it much more than a professional relationship. I do agree that it's frustrating and annoying that the leads don't talk to each other and we may never know exactly why and it must have been especially hard to their shippers.

Anyway I just wanted to comment on why I like Eric and Cal and say that it is not because I want to see them having sex and because they are young and hot.

Thanks for at least acknowledging that the lack of H/C interaction is, at best, very odd. And I didn't mean to say that all E/C fans see it as a superficial thing - again, I was generalizing (a bit too much probably ) from what I had seen on the boards for the most part.

silentdisco:

If we're debating H/C, I don't really see why it's necessary to bring E/C into the debate. They're two separate ships. But since you've brought it in, I suppose I can include them too. It can be interesting to make comparisons.

First of all, I always meant to say this but kept forgetting: silentdisco, I LOVE your banner at the bottom w/all the "waitress" questions - absolutely hilarious. :lol: Please know that when I do have the money to eat out, I try to leave a nice tip

So why did I bring E/C into this H/C debate? I think it was b/c I saw E/C fans wondering about the DuCaine thing, so I related it back to them.

silentdisco:

I think it's only volatile if someone (on any side, I'm not trying to point fingers here) starts to get nasty. Yes, many E/C fans don't like the idea of DuCaine, but it's not all E/C fans that are "badmouthing" it. It also depends on your definition of "badmouthing"- I don't think I'm "badmouthing" DuCaine here, because I'm trying to engage in a respectful debate. I think it's best to try to avoid making generalizations about groups that support or don't support a relationship.

I hear you. Unfortunately I had some bad experiences in the past (back in Seasons 5-6) w/a small number of E/C fans who were none too kind about DuCaine, so I get a little defensive. When I say that they "bashed" the H/C ship, what I meant was that people were posting that DuCaine was "totally gross" or "shove it," or other similar remarks I don't want to repeat. I certainly don't consider what you or hiphugger17 posted as bashing.

silentdisco:

I have seen all the earlier episodes, and I agree, David and Emily had great chemistry. To me, however, it was just a different kind of chemistry- friendship versus romance ... I can agree that their relationship was more than just colleagues. But I still saw it as a strong friendship, not one that had the potential for romance.

I hear you and again appreciate those that can at least acknowledge that H and C were close at one point and time. Originally, CSI:NYfan had asked how anyone could ship H/C b/c they no longer interact, so I just wanted to clear the air and clear up some of the show's history on that score (ie: that they were at one time close). Again, I understand how some could see that as a friendship and that's it - it's when people say that their relationship never existed (and nobody on this thread has said that, but I've run into others in the past who have) that I get a bit annoyed.

silentdisco:

I think anytime there's a polarizing aspect of the show, people are bound to feel "put off". It's also possible that the DuCaine fans left the board because they were no longer interested in the show- for various reasons, and it could include the development of the E/C relationship.

There were definitely various reasons why DuCaine fans left the boards - certainly one was that the interaction was non-existent after mid-Season 5. For me (and for others I've spoken to who've left), it's a combination of things, one of which being the whole E/C ship. IMHO, the writing and development of the romance was contrived and poorly done, and there was too much "in your face" drama for them - to the point where only Cal and Eric were working together or interacting for the most part. For me, there was a little redemption in the season premier ("Fallen,") when not just Eric, but Horatio too, rushed to see if Cal was OK (given her past lung problems, it was logical to think she would've been the one most affected - unless of course someone hit their head on the way down - sorry OT, just thought that was lame for Jesse).

silentdisco:

I think part of this is the show- in the earlier years, there wasn't as much ACTION ACTION ACTION CHASE DANGER ALMOST DEATH. Can't say I prefere it this way, either. A lot of E/C fans saw the unnecessary drama as just that- unnecessary, and something that masked the deep connection we feel that Eric and Calleigh share.

Yea, I do realize E/C fans and non-E/C fans alike have voiced their discontent w/the constant "drama" surrounding these too. I also agree that it "masked" whatever TPTB saw was there, b/c for me, all I saw was 2 people constantly making death-bed professions of almost "I love you's," but then flip-flopping about the relationship once everyone was stable/OK. (The recent state of the ship being an example. After all they did to build up the relationship, TPTB leave ALL the fans going :wtf: - I certainly didn't like that.)

Perhaps it's the way the ship was built up/presented - to me it played out like a bad fanfic. Perhaps if it was done different - and didn't interfere w/Cal's interaction w/H, then I would feel differently. There were times when I really tried to buy into the HipHuggers thing (b/c I could see the way the show was headed) but I just didn't like the way the relationship played out on-screen. I will say that I'd find it very hard to ever see DuCaine at this point - not b/c of E/C - but b/c H and Cal hardly ever interact anymore, and it's like that lack of interaction has killed the chemistry of the earlier years.

silentdisco:

Even as an E/C shipper who liked to see Eric there for Calleigh during her difficult times, it did strike me as odd that Horatio wasn't there too. Cal is his second-in-command, and they've worked together for a long time, so it would only be natural that he'd be there for her ... I agree- it is sad that H and Calleigh have interacted so little. It's not that I disliked their friendship, because I didn't. I thought it added to the strong dynamic of the show. But with the way things are going, it really hurts the show for these two to interact so little. And it is very confusing.

That is refreshing to hear - while I ship H/C, I never expected a romance to be developed on-screen - just a continuation of the friendliness and care that they had for one another. I would be THRILLED if they resumed a father/daughter dynamic even, or if Cal somehow had a personal conversation w/Horatio. I mean, both obviously care deeply for Eric, so why wouldn't Cal talk to H if she was concerned about him (like in Season 5 when he was coming back from the head injury), or why would Eric not turn to H for advice? I think I could tolerate E/C if it included some sort of dynamic or reaction from Horatio. Even Nat and Ryan acknowledged it, but H - who is close to Eric and (at least was) close to Cal - never seemed to care. It's all just odd and probably boils down to poor script writing.

Whew! Sorry about that long post! Thanks for the interesting debate - I feel somewhat better now

 

[hiphugger17]

miamirocks
Perhaps it's the way the ship was built up/presented - to me it played out like a bad fanfic. Perhaps if it was done different - and didn't interfere w/Cal's interaction w/H, then I would feel differently. There were times when I really tried to buy into the HipHuggers thing (b/c I could see the way the show was headed) but I just didn't like the way the relationship played out on-screen. I will say that I'd find it very hard to ever see DuCaine at this point - not b/c of E/C - but b/c H and Cal hardly ever interact anymore, and it's like that lack of interaction has killed the chemistry of the earlier years.

It's not the first time I've read poster saying that since Eric and Calleigh had a romantic storyline that's the reason H and Cal had no scenes together. I'm not 100% sure that is accurate. Yes Eric and Cal were paired up most of the time but they still had scenes with Ryan, and the ME's, and Frank, and Natalia. Eric had plenty of scenes with Horatio, so why not Calleigh? If their relationship affected H and Cal screentime then how come Eric and H still had lots of scenes together? I think it was much more than just a romantic storyline between Eric and Cal. I blame the writers for sticking for so long to pairing off the same people again and again. I think it was unnecesarry and lazy. I think they just decided to stick to the formula of "pairs" because for some unknown reason they actually liked it. I enjoy the scenes with all of them in the same room or three or four, and of course that includes the leader of the team. The other CSI's do it all the time and I couldn't figure out why Miami kept the pairing thing going on. And that started before Eric and Cal's romantic storyline. I know that part of the reason I dislike so much season 4 is because Calleigh was always with Ryan and very little did she share a scene with Eric. It's like once they start a season with two of them together they can't mix them up :shifty:.

silentdisco
I think part of this is the show- in the earlier years, there wasn't as much ACTION ACTION ACTION CHASE DANGER ALMOST DEATH. Can't say I prefere it this way, either. A lot of E/C fans saw the unnecessary drama as just that- unnecessary, and something that masked the deep connection we feel that Eric and Calleigh share.

miamirocks
Yea, I do realize E/C fans and non-E/C fans alike have voiced their discontent w/the constant "drama" surrounding these too. I also agree that it "masked" whatever TPTB saw was there, b/c for me, all I saw was 2 people constantly making death-bed professions of almost "I love you's," but then flip-flopping about the relationship once everyone was stable/OK. (The recent state of the ship being an example. After all they did to build up the relationship, TPTB leave ALL the fans going :wtf: - I certainly didn't like that.)

I completely agree. There was A LOT of unnecesarry drama. Right now it's like "oh we can't have Calleigh in danger so we might as well split them up" :shifty:. The drama is annoying. That's definitely one of the reasons anti-shippers are so put of by the storyline and I can't say as I blame them cause it pisses me off too. I think that the friendship they had and the chemistry I saw between them was enough to develop a nice subtle relationship without the constant near death experiences. Unfortunately Miami has turned into this action, chase, death show and it's writers don't know how to do subtle and romantic.

miamirocks
That is refreshing to hear - while I ship H/C, I never expected a romance to be developed on-screen - just a continuation of the friendliness and care that they had for one another. I would be THRILLED if they resumed a father/daughter dynamic even, or if Cal somehow had a personal conversation w/Horatio. I mean, both obviously care deeply for Eric, so why wouldn't Cal talk to H if she was concerned about him (like in Season 5 when he was coming back from the head injury), or why would Eric not turn to H for advice? I think I could tolerate E/C if it included some sort of dynamic or reaction from Horatio. Even Nat and Ryan acknowledged it, but H - who is close to Eric and (at least was) close to Cal - never seemed to care. It's all just odd and probably boils down to poor script writing.

I agree. Cal and H need a good, decent amount of scenes together. Especially now that Horatio has this vigilante streak going on. She should be the one to notice and have a serious talk with him about it. First because it puts his career in jeopardy and second because it puts the team in jeopardy and she's the second in command. I think it would be a nice way of them connecting once again. I always wanted to know what H reaction to Eric and Cal being together would be. That would have been a much better scene that had to do with their relationship than the whole drama with Eric's dad (which by the way had no resolution ).

 

[silentdisco]

Hey all I certainly appreciate the civilized/friendly feedback - sometimes I take things a bit too "personally" where DuCaine is involved, and I just felt like I had to defend this couple I believed in for so long but that have been totally pulled apart by TPTB.

I completely understand. Although it is only a TV show, I do know what it feels like to be invested in it, or a certain aspect of it. It can be uncomfortable going to a forum when a poster has started to blur the line between civil disagreement and mean-spiritedness (note: I'm not trying to say that you have, because you totally haven't!). But I'm glad that we're able to have a friendly debate here.

I suppose that was just my POV on things, and from reading a lot of E/C fans' reactions to certain E/C scenes/interactions. I personally feel like all I hear about w/them is how hot they are. Certainly, I'm sure there are E/C fans who see more than that, and I appreciate your own examples - gosh knows I could do a laundry list of my own about DuCaine from Seasons 1-4, though I'll spare you all (at least for now )

I can see how you could get that impression. I think it's safe to say that most E/C fans enjoy the fact that we believe Eric and Calleigh make a very attractive couple. It's just that there are many of us who also like the connection and deep friendship that started their relationship, and helped to turn it into a romantic one. But you seem to understand that.

What I mean to say about Eric and Calleigh, and what doesn't always come across b/c I'm such a die-hard DuCaine fan, is that I really liked their friendship and how they trusted/helped each other, at least through Season 5. I don't deny the friendliness - I just wish it had stopped there. (I personally was touched at the scenes by Eric's bedside in "Man Down" - I thought Emily did a beautiful job conveying Cal's emotions for her friend.)

I can totally respect that opinion. And I agree- the bedside scene in "Man Down" was wonderful, even from a non-shipper perspective.

However, just as E/C fans see H and Cal as just friends or colleagues, I too never saw anything more than friendship w/Eric and Cal. Or rather, I thought that if they brought sex into the equation, it would cheapen their friendship. B/c of Eric's "playboy" style, I never liked him much, but always loved the way he respected Cal and wasn't sexual w/her, unlike he was w/almost every other woman (aside from Alexx). He would always make sexual side comments about women, and they even carried that into the Season 8 premier between him and Cal - I really find that to be a complete turn-off and very chauvinistic.

Eric certainly had his playboy days, that's for sure. I also liked how he clearly respected Calleigh and didn't view her as a sex object once he got to know and work with her in the earlier seasons (as opposed to, say, back when he first met her in the Season 8 premiere flashback and instantly tried to get her number). I think that's why I believe a romantic relationship wouldn't have worked out between the two of them back then. This is just my perspective, but I always saw some romantic sparks/chemistry between them, even in the earlier seasons, but at that time Eric wasn't mature enough to have that kind of relationship with Calleigh.

I think between late Season 4 and throughout Season 5 is when Eric "grew up". It started in Season 3, after Speed's death and the "toothing" stuff, when Eric went to counseling and I believe it helped him not only sort out his grief for his fallen friend, but also work through personal issues he had before that. Going through the sickness and then death of his sister, then later almost losing his life changed his perspective on things. He matured, and what he wanted in life changed. He stopped making sexual comments, really put his heart into his job (especially when he had to relearn things and work extra hard after being shot), was in therapy.

To me, he realized he wanted a genuine relationship, not a fling. The sparks I always thought existed between him and Calleigh nagged at his mind, along with his attraction to her. He knew how much she cared for him. They were close friends, which is often a great base for starting a romantic relationship. Calleigh was also someone who understood him and his life- knew what it was like to have a high-stress job, work long hours, feel frustrated when the justice system failed. They could relate to one another.

Also, I really hated that scene in the lockerroom (can't remember the name of the epi, but I think it was Season 7), where Eric was talking to Cal about how "it" keeps happening - it seemed kind of demeaning to me and I just didn't like the way they interacted when it came to the "sex" part of their relationship.

See, that didn't bother me as much (btw, it was Season 8, Ep 13 "In The Wind"). At that point in time, Calleigh and Eric had been in a genuine relationship in the past. They went through some tough circumstances- Eric dealing with his biological father, then quitting CSI. They had already been through the hurdle of Eric's citizenship, and their relationship was strained because of all the stress. So they took a break. But gradually, they realized that their connection was too strong to be broken by bad luck, and they still wanted to be together. So it began to heat up again- at first, just the physical connection, but then they began to trust each other again, and after that it returned to the deep, full relationship they had before. At least, that's how I saw it.

I look at how their relationship changed their own professional behavior (covering for each other, lying in some cases, etc.); I look at how it changed their relationship w/the team (ganging up on Ryan, Cal never interacting w/H anymore b/c she was always w/Eric, etc.); and how it changed them as individuals (Cal seemed much more high-strung and Eric way too smug and macho for me.)

I tend to blame some of the character faults since E/C got together on the writers rather than the relationship. Calleigh's been in relationships with coworkers before, and she didn't let it affect her job. Hagen comes to mind as an example. She cut him loose and expressed her displeasure when she learned of his shoddy detective work. I don't think Real Calleigh would lie and cover for her boyfriend- and I don't think Real Eric would do something that made him need her to cover for him. I think it's crappy writing.

First of all, I always meant to say this but kept forgetting: silentdisco, I LOVE your banner at the bottom w/all the "waitress" questions - absolutely hilarious. :lol: Please know that when I do have the money to eat out, I try to leave a nice tip

Aw, thanks! And I'm glad to hear that you're a nice tipper. Anyone who has been serving position knows how crazy it can get, and we really appreciate when people are nice and leave good tips. Especially since, in the U.S. it's 100% legal for our hourly pay to be much less than minimum wage (I get paid $2.13. Federal minimum wage is $7.25- more than 3 times greater), and we rely on tips for our income.

So why did I bring E/C into this H/C debate? I think it was b/c I saw E/C fans wondering about the DuCaine thing, so I related it back to them.

Ah, okay, that makes sense. Thanks!

I hear you. Unfortunately I had some bad experiences in the past (back in Seasons 5-6) w/a small number of E/C fans who were none too kind about DuCaine, so I get a little defensive. When I say that they "bashed" the H/C ship, what I meant was that people were posting that DuCaine was "totally gross" or "shove it," or other similar remarks I don't want to repeat. I certainly don't consider what you or hiphugger17 posted as bashing.

Ugh, I'm sorry some people were so rude to you. That's completely unacceptable. Thanks for clarifying, though.

That is refreshing to hear - while I ship H/C, I never expected a romance to be developed on-screen - just a continuation of the friendliness and care that they had for one another. I would be THRILLED if they resumed a father/daughter dynamic even, or if Cal somehow had a personal conversation w/Horatio. I mean, both obviously care deeply for Eric, so why wouldn't Cal talk to H if she was concerned about him (like in Season 5 when he was coming back from the head injury), or why would Eric not turn to H for advice? I think I could tolerate E/C if it included some sort of dynamic or reaction from Horatio. Even Nat and Ryan acknowledged it, but H - who is close to Eric and (at least was) close to Cal - never seemed to care. It's all just odd and probably boils down to poor script writing.

I'm with you on this one- I'd love to see more H/Cal interaction. It's just weird how they don't seem to talk, ever. It's like their relationship disappeared. And I also like seeing Cal interact with people other than Eric. I want the team to feel like a "team" again- like, yes, two of them may be dating, but they're still all a family- H, Eric, Cal, Nat, Ryan, Walter. One of them needs to have a birthday or a party so we can get a scene of all of them laughing together and clearly enjoying each other's company.

 

[miamirocks]

Thanks for the good (and civil) debate, hiphugger17 & silentdisco While we may never completely agree on romance, it's nice to know there are some who are open to hearing other people's perspectives while politely clarifying their own. Like I said, I can be really passionate about things - my ship has really gone through some rough times - and sometimes haven't been fair to E/C fans, generalizing them and such. Sorry about that.

At the end of the day, I think it is really the way the ship was written that turned me off to it, as I always loved Eric and Cal's friendship and may've been open to it minus the drama and such. (Kind of like I didn't mind Horatio and Yelina much (although I wasn't thrilled about a possible relationship w/them I didn't mind as much b/c the writing was subtle and not too much "near death" stuff.) On the flipside, the Horatio/Marisol relationship was, for me, the worst ship idea Miami ever had - even the idea seemed horrible to me, let alone the writing. So I guess E/C is somewhere in between for me.

I hear what you're saying about Eric changing/maturing after Speed's death and being shot. I think he's matured a lot too, but felt his immaturity came out a lot in his relationship w/Cal (especially during the Jake/Calleigh/Eric "love triangle). However, it takes a lot to stay committed, especially for him, so I suppose it's a good, mature sign that he at least hasn't cheated on Cal (at least that we know of - not an insinuation, I'm just saying I'm not putting anything past these writers at this point! :lol: )

Maybe I don't really dislike E/C as much as I dislike the way the writers have made it, in addition to the fact that I personally liked them better as friends. I really am not a fan of the "sex" scenes or comments, but to each their own! I just hope Miami comes to some resolution w/E/C and also some sort of resolution w/all this lack of interaction between H and Cal. I'm sure there've been many reasons for the lack of interaction (like hiphugger17 suggested, maybe it's just the laziness of the writers who pair people up and don't know how to "spread out" the cast).

However, it is painfully obvious these two hardly ever interact, so why not write it into the storyline somehow? IE: Cal could've confronted H on why he didn't trust her to help him cover up his murder, and he could've said something like, "I didn't want to put you in danger, or have to hide it from Eric - I know how close you are." Or have her ask him if everything is OK w/him, wonder why he hasn't been around the lab, that he's been acting kind of distant, and have him explain himself somehow, like saying "Since Rio, things have been difficult" and have him apologize to her for dumping a great deal of the responsibilities of the team on her while he's been "absent" in the team's life. OK I'll stop now before this turns into a fanfic! :lol:

What I would like to see is at least for them to show that they still care for each other. (I liked the scene in "Fallen," but it's going to take more than that for me to believe H still cares about Cal, even in just a sense of friendship.)

So anyhow, I appreciate the friendly conversation! I'm sure we may pick it up again at some point once the show addresses E/C again (which I think it would do, just to have some resolution).

PS: silentdisco - I was shocked and appalled to hear that your pay is $2.13/hr. :wtf: While you get tips and all, that still is pretty messed up, especially if it's a slow night! I will definitely keep this in mind next time I need to leave a tip!

 

[hiphugger17]

miamirocks
Thanks for the good (and civil) debate, hiphugger17 & silentdisco While we may never completely agree on romance, it's nice to know there are some who are open to hearing other people's perspectives while politely clarifying their own.

You're welcome and thanks to you too. I've quite enjoyed our debate . It's nice to be able to write one's opinion without backlash and to read others well expressed opinions.

However, it is painfully obvious these two hardly ever interact, so why not write it into the storyline somehow? IE: Cal could've confronted H on why he didn't trust her to help him cover up his murder, and he could've said something like, "I didn't want to put you in danger, or have to hide it from Eric - I know how close you are." Or have her ask him if everything is OK w/him, wonder why he hasn't been around the lab, that he's been acting kind of distant, and have him explain himself somehow, like saying "Since Rio, things have been difficult" and have him apologize to her for dumping a great deal of the responsibilities of the team on her while he's been "absent" in the team's life. OK I'll stop now before this turns into a fanfic! :lol:

Trust me I'm with you on tptb fixing the mess they've done with H and Cal. They owe us lots of moments between these two were they can once again have the trust and rapport they once had. I'll even take fanfic over the nothingness we have right now :lol:.

 

[MelxxWhoLuvsYa]

Is there any other RaiN fans (Ryan/Natalia) here? So far I can't see any, I feel alone, lol

There are a few of us floating around.:lol: Not too much to discuss right now; but my hopes up for the future. I pulled the thread out of storage for you. :lol:

lol thanks slower

btw: I seriously dislike the Molly/Ryan pairing - seems wayyyy too forced

Anyone agree?