Could they just hook up Mac and Stella?

[talkingtocactus]

thanks for the heads up, i changed it

i'm pretty sure you said the other one though

 

[Elwood21]

^ :lol:

Oh, I did indeed And I never saw no signs sayin; "Please Dont' Feed Da SuperCrimeFighters." I think Flack would faint for the notion alone.

 

[talkingtocactus]

i do love that "eating is frowned upon" scene - just because it so is something mac would plausibly say

 

[Curiosity]

What I suppose I meant was that I would prefer this kind of handling for most romances on our procedural crime drama precisely because I only want minimal or at least delicately balanced time devoted to such things :lol: I don't want romances coming to the forefront of the show.

Yes, I see, and I do agree that in a series like this it’s better if the romance (and other relationship storylines as well) are more in the background or at least that the writers are judicious about when and how they explore it.

I guess I’ve come to expect (or maybe I’ve just resigned myself to the notion) that even crime dramas likely will have some type of prominent romantic storyline(s). And although they use one time guest stars (or perhaps three-time in CSI:NY’s case) as romantic prospects , seems like sooner or later they eventually develop one or more romances amongst the regular characters – probably because these characters are ones the audience is more likely to be invested in and their stories tend to generate the most interest.

For me, putting Mac and Stella together, or any main characters together, would close more doors than it opens.

It is true that putting two main characters together can limit some of the development and storyline options available to writers . I think that’s one reason The People In Charge tend to hold off on these types of pairings as long as possible and if it happens, it tends to be in later years or only at the end.

Having a relationship between people in the labs like DL or the precinct like FA means that its always a default presence. I'd rather not be so saddled. Danny and Lindsay have had a huge volume of material devoted to their so-called relationship, and it's done next to nothing for the characters :lol:

This is where I guess it gets a little tricky for TPIC. Despite some of the pitfalls and controversy surrounding the D/L relationship, it does seem to generate a lot of interest (both pro and con) and IIRC, some of the D/L-focused episodes this past season had ratings increases. That alone tends to reinforce the notion that some portion of the audience responds to this type of relationship drama and even some people who don’t necessarily like it will tune in to see big events. Of course, the question is whether that interest is sustainable and whether people will continue to tune in if they perceive the romances as diminishing the quality of the show.

RE: long term development, that's also why I think romance should only be one way to round out a character.

Agreed. Friendships, family relationships, adversarial conflicts, etc. are all valid (and sometimes more effective) ways of developing characters. That said, I think romance does allow the writers to bring in certain elements and show different sides to the characters that we wouldn’t necessarily see in other situations, so again, I think it will always be part of the equation.

I do like some of the ideas you mentioned before –exploring Stella’s teaching role, perhaps finding a way to bring in Mac’s bass-playing gig again (maybe some type of case involving his musician friends?), etc. – and would certainly like to see them do more of this type of stuff as opposed to simply focusing on romance.

Not everything hasta be deep and pithy in opening up our characters. Danny and Flack going to a basketball game is just fun. Danny teasing Flack about a girl he met at a charity hockey game is fun. Adam's hints about his girlfriends are fun. Sid's creepy place is fun. The fact that Sheldon scuba dives is great. Hell, learning anything about Sheldon is great :lol: Even something like Danny bringing in his dog was fun. All of those were just little moments that nudged at the fact that there's a wider world out there.

Yes, the fun moments and little personal tidbits that come out in the course of a simple conversation are a highlight, and I think the series is at its best when the writers integrate those moments with the crime procedural aspects in a seamless and natural way.

Danny has a dog???:lol: What episode was the dog in?

My cockles are occasionally warmed by them. I dunno what a cockle is, or how there's any correspondence between shelfish and one's heart, but I get ya. Mebbe it's to do with oysters and all that, who knows.

:lol: You made me curious, so I had to go look it up for peace of mind. Apparently, cockles are bivalve mollusks, so I guess the reference alludes to the chambers of the heart, which also have valves. Who knew?

That's an interesting and very good point about Lindsay and Mac, and one that hadn't occured to me. I remember her commenting about Stella in All Access, and Angell in Pay Up, for example, but no, nuthin' about Mac. I suppose maybe because we all know he's indefatigable and will pool together like the terminator no many how many pieces he's in, to relentlessly bring justice to the streets :lol:. Or. It could be because Lindsay's consistently come across as self-focused, unable to relate except in putting herself first, like not knowing how to comfort Danny after Reuben's death, nor talking to parents and grieving mothers, etc.

Well, Mac and Stella are Superman and Wonder Woman, so the others do seem to take their survival and recovery for granted at times.

Seriously, though, without going too far OT….The writing has consistently shortchanged Lindsay in this regard (i.e., self-focus and lack of empathy), and I’m still not sure if this is supposed to be a deliberate character flaw or if it’s simply an unintended consequence of writing choices. Yes, she occasionally gets to commiserate with someone else about the various mishaps that befall her colleagues, but she almost never is the one who gives active support and comfort to the person affected. That’s one of the things that makes her seem a bit isolated and emotionally disconnected from the rest of the group.

And bringing this back to Mac and Stella (and especially Mac), the concern, indulgences, and apparent affection they show for Lindsay comes off as a bit contrived because we don’t really see Lindsay reciprocate in kind.

Flack was the one who seemed to provide the primary support and comfort to Stella in “All Access.” (Mac’s reaction to Stella’s attack actually bugged me, but that’s a topic for another thread.)

how so, just out of interest like? point me to this other thread if you'd rather!

I think there’s an episode thread somewhere but it’s probably several pages back, so I’ll just comment here and try to focus on itsn relevance to Mac and Stella’s relationship.

Anyway, I have to preface my remarks by saying “All Access” is not one of my favorite episodes. It is well-acted (especially by MK), but I find it very difficult to watch, especially the attack on Stella. As for Mac’s reaction, I just find it a little too underwhelming and aloof. Now, I ‘ve read different explanations for his reaction – he was still in broody, restrained mode and this was his way of dealing with his emotions; when he sits on the bed in Stella’s apartment staring at the carpet we see how affected he is; he does put his hand on her shoulder, etc. – but it didn’t quite hit the right note with me. This was Stella, who has shown such support and concern for Mac, and I just expected a bit more from him, even if it was one of his infamous emotional outbursts. And at the end, when he talks to her about taking time away from work and putting her up in a hotel, he sounds more like her boss than friend. Bad Mac!

Oddly enough, I had the same reaction this season, when Stella was sitting in the ambulance after the Diakos attack telling Mac she thought she’d come out in a body bag. Mac just stood there with this pensive look on his face right before Flack interrupted. Say something comforting, Mac!

I don’t know….We’ve seen Mac rushing down the stairs to get to injured Peyton, rushing across town to save Ella, etc., but comparatively, he sometimes seems a little too cavalier about Stella’s safety. Granted, maybe that’s positive in that he doesn’t see her as a damsel in distress , but it does seem a bit odd at times.

And now that I’ve ranted about that, I will admit Mac made up for any lapses in a major way by following Stella to Greece, finding the info about her mother, helping her resolve the case, and pretty much ignoring all her transgressions at the end. That should win him some brownie points for awhile.:lol:

i don't think those scenes should be allowed, after all, "eating is frowned upon"

Hee. Reminds me of that line from Flack to Stella: “When you drive, we don’t eat.”

 

[Elwood21]

I guess I’ve come to expect (or maybe I’ve just resigned myself to the notion) that even crime dramas likely will have some type of prominent romantic storyline(s). And although they use one time guest stars (or perhaps three-time in CSI:NY’s case) as romantic prospects , seems like sooner or later they eventually develop one or more romances amongst the regular characters – probably because these characters are ones the audience is more likely to be invested in and their stories tend to generate the most interest.

I know what ya mean. And yet, and I know Smacked fans will cringe here, I thought the whole Mac/Peyton thing was handled pretty well, similarly I thought Flack/Angell were handled pretty well, and Danny/Rikki too for that matter. All those paired a regular with a recurring, and so better than a one-shot, we saw enough of them to make them believable, but it wasn't overload. I think both Mac and Danny got some great moments in those storylines. I think FA wasn't around long enough to get into any heavy emotional stuff except thru the loss of her, and we'll see what we actually do get from it in S6. It was among the most fun relationships chemistry-wise though.

This is where I guess it gets a little tricky for TPIC. Despite some of the pitfalls and controversy surrounding the D/L relationship, it does seem to generate a lot of interest (both pro and con) and IIRC, some of the D/L-focused episodes this past season had ratings increases. That alone tends to reinforce the notion that some portion of the audience responds to this type of relationship drama and even some people who don’t necessarily like it will tune in to see big events. Of course, the question is whether that interest is sustainable and whether people will continue to tune in if they perceive the romances as diminishing the quality of the show.

Again, anything that stirs a strong response, no matter pro or con, will often generate ratings. Until, of course, people get fed up of having to sit thru something they don't like in order to get to what they do. And I mean that to apply not only to DL, but to any of the relationships I mentioned above. Not everyone will like what's depicted, but a lot of people will tune in to see what's going on nonetheless.

Danny has a dog???:lol: What episode was the dog in?

Not What It Looks Like, S3, 2006. Check out the synopsis and review on the Guide portion of the site for a description. Short version, there was a robbery where a sonic device was used to shatter glass, and Danny brought in his dog to test a theory. There was the obligatory (but fun scene) of Messer being teased about owners and dogs looking alike, but the whole sequence was a fun one between both Hawkes and Danny, and then Stella and Danny.

:lol: You made me curious, so I had to go look it up for peace of mind. Apparently, cockles are bivalve mollusks, so I guess the reference alludes to the chambers of the heart, which also have valves. Who knew?

:guffaw:...well done! Sounds plausible. That's actually pretty interesting :lol: A new bit of trivia, wahoo

Seriously, though, without going too far OT….The writing has consistently shortchanged Lindsay in this regard (i.e., self-focus and lack of empathy), and I’m still not sure if this is supposed to be a deliberate character flaw or if it’s simply an unintended consequence of writing choices. Yes, she occasionally gets to commiserate with someone else about the various mishaps that befall her colleagues, but she almost never is the one who gives active support and comfort to the person affected. That’s one of the things that makes her seem a bit isolated and emotionally disconnected from the rest of the group.

There are many interesting (and different) points of view on this in the Why Linds Must Go thread. I think she did have material and opportunities written for her that just came off less than successfully. I think her emotional issues about dealing with people in distress could/should be an interesting insight to her character, and that we could actually feel for her, but that whatever has been written on the page doesn't come across in the performance of it. I think she's supposed to come across as a more sympathetic character than deliberately flawed for having those issues than she does.

I don’t know….We’ve seen Mac rushing down the stairs to get to injured Peyton, rushing across town to save Ella, etc., but comparatively, he sometimes seems a little too cavalier about Stella’s safety. Granted, maybe that’s positive in that he doesn’t see her as a damsel in distress , but it does seem a bit odd at times.

And now that I’ve ranted about that, I will admit Mac made up for any lapses in a major way by following Stella to Greece, finding the info about her mother, helping her resolve the case, and pretty much ignoring all her transgressions at the end. That should win him some brownie points for awhile.:lol:

I can see what you mean. But I think part of it is the contrast between her fireball and more extroverted personality in how she expresses herself versus his more typical simmering restraint in all things emotional, till it spills over. I like that there's an equality within the friendship, and that there's often a delay in processing whatever each is dealing with before approaching the other about it (eg. HIV, Reed, Ella, etc); in the scenes where they do, I've quite liked the interaction. I like the independence. In how they have been portrayed, I have never once doubted the depth of caring and loyalty in their friendship.

i don't think those scenes should be allowed, after all, "eating is frowned upon"

Hee. Reminds me of that line from Flack to Stella: “When you drive, we don’t eat.”

Aw. Poor Flack. Just for fun. a fave pic from Murder Sings.

 

[talkingtocactus]

thanks curiosity - i totally see what you mean, i thought he was almost too aloof in "all access" as well, i know at the time his character was meant to be but he was almost cold which i thought was slightly odd too. although i also agree with Elwood21 that the independence they have is really important to their characters being believable and definitely makes me believe their dynamic more. i'm sitting on the fence, dammit!

as for the comments on their relationship this season, i'm now erasing them from my mind because we're still mid season over here in the uk yet and i'm trying to avoid spoilers - when i've seen the eps in question, i'll comment more

 

[Curiosity]

I know what ya mean. And yet, and I know Smacked fans will cringe here, I thought the whole Mac/Peyton thing was handled pretty well, similarly I thought Flack/Angell were handled pretty well, and Danny/Rikki too for that matter. All those paired a regular with a recurring, and so better than a one-shot, we saw enough of them to make them believable, but it wasn't overload.

Yes, all those relationships served a purpose although I thought some were handled better than others.

For me, Flack/Angell was definitely the best of the bunch – because of the chemistry and the way the characters behaved towards each other. I think it helped too that Angell was a longer term recurring with a role that allowed her to interact with the others and that the writers focused on establishing her in that role before developing the relationship with Flack.

Peyton had that potential as well because she was in a role that should have allowed her to develop relationships with the other team members and function in a broader capacity than just Mac’s girlfriend. We did see some of that early on, but by the end, it seemed like the focus was primarily on her relationship with Mac. And I still think they made a mistake in the way they positioned the relationship from the start. Having her first scene be a bedroom scene sort of planted the seed that she was there first and foremost as “the love interest,” and it didn’t ring true to me that they were struggling with some of the issues we saw if they had really been dating for a year and were in the middle of an intimate relationship. Regardless, the relationship served its purpose well enough – it allowed Mac to take another step towards moving on.

I have mixed feelings about Danny/RIkki. The actors were good together, but I didn’t care for the scenario which brought them together, and I’m still not sure whether the writers intended to actually develop this relationship or were using it simply as a plot device in the ongoing D/L storyline. I am curious about what type of storyline the writers were considering if they had brought her back for season five.

Not What It Looks Like, S3, 2006. Check out the synopsis and review on the Guide portion of the site for a description. Short version, there was a robbery where a sonic device was used to shatter glass, and Danny brought in his dog to test a theory.

Thanks. I’ll have to pull out the DVD’s for this one. I have a vague memory of the scene but don’t remember the details at all.

:guffaw:...well done! Sounds plausible. That's actually pretty interesting :lol: A new bit of trivia, wahoo

Just a guess on my part based on the definition but seems to make sense.

I can see what you mean. But I think part of it is the contrast between her fireball and more extroverted personality in how she expresses herself versus his more typical simmering restraint in all things emotional, till it spills over. I like that there's an equality within the friendship, and that there's often a delay in processing whatever each is dealing with before approaching the other about it (eg. HIV, Reed, Ella, etc); in the scenes where they do, I've quite liked the interaction. I like the independence. In how they have been portrayed, I have never once doubted the depth of caring and loyalty in their friendship.

All good points. The independence they both display is extremely important and part of the reason that they come across as equals….Although they each expose vulnerabilities and occasionally seek support from the other, there’s not the sense that they are too dependent in an unhealthy way. And I would much rather have that than see Stella come across as the damsel in distress.

Aw. Poor Flack. Just for fun. a fave pic from Murder Sings.

:lol: Poor Flack, indeed. It’s funny how different aspects of his character come out depending on who they pair him with….

thanks curiosity - i totally see what you mean, i thought he was almost too aloof in "all access" as well, i know at the time his character was meant to be but he was almost cold which i thought was slightly odd too.

Yeah, I thnk that’s a big part of what bugged me. I didn’t get the sense of intense emotion simmering beneath the surface so it made Mac come off as a bit too aloof about the whole situation.

as for the comments on their relationship this season, i'm now erasing them from my mind because we're still mid season over here in the uk yet and i'm trying to avoid spoilers - when i've seen the eps in question, i'll comment more

Aargh! I’m so sorry lisasimpson! I forget that the UK season hasn’t finished yet and some folks don’t want to be spoiled for it. Sincere apologies!

 

[talkingtocactus]

For me, Flack/Angell was definitely the best of the bunch – because of the chemistry and the way the characters behaved towards each other. I think it helped too that Angell was a longer term recurring with a role that allowed her to interact with the others and that the writers focused on establishing her in that role before developing the relationship with Flack.

Peyton had that potential as well because she was in a role that should have allowed her to develop relationships with the other team members and function in a broader capacity than just Mac’s girlfriend. We did see some of that early on, but by the end, it seemed like the focus was primarily on her relationship with Mac. And I still think they made a mistake in the way they positioned the relationship from the start. Having her first scene be a bedroom scene sort of planted the seed that she was there first and foremost as “the love interest,” and it didn’t ring true to me that they were struggling with some of the issues we saw if they had really been dating for a year and were in the middle of an intimate relationship.

i agree completely - i liked that angell was brought in kind of gradually and in her own right - it gave the impression that she was just someone flack worked with and not "she's there because she's his girlfriend" - the interaction with the others was really important to that, the fact that there were scenes with her and not flack, and vice versa. also the fact that she teased him a bit (at least i seem to recall she did...) made it really believable, like they were this pair who joked around and stuff.

i agree about peyton too - that first scene was definitely setting out that she was "the girlfriend" and i dunno, it kind of undermined her scenes as ME a little bit, it was like "oh, let's give her some other scenes so she looks like she's doing something other than being mac's girlfriend". i would much rather she'd come in gradually as a member of the dept and then we found out that she and mac were going out as an aside, whereas it felt a bit like she was the girlfriend and her work was the side order. even the more dramatic scenes that she got (the body being nicked) seemed like they were contrived to show mac doing something with regard to her, rather than to show her doing her job.

Although they each expose vulnerabilities and occasionally seek support from the other, there’s not the sense that they are too dependent in an unhealthy way. And I would much rather have that than see Stella come across as the damsel in distress.

absolutely!

as for the comments on their relationship this season, i'm now erasing them from my mind because we're still mid season over here in the uk yet and i'm trying to avoid spoilers - when i've seen the eps in question, i'll comment more

Aargh! I’m so sorry lisasimpson! I forget that the UK season hasn’t finished yet and some folks don’t want to be spoiled for it. Sincere apologies!

no worries, it's not the first time i've read stuff and i'm sure it won't be the last. i've done quite well at noticing spoilers before i read them and then just skipping them. i think we're fairly close to the end, maybe 3-4 weeks to go. actually 3 sounds right as the first dvd is out on 29th june so it must finish on tv just before that. [/ot]

 

[Half]

For me, Flack/Angell was definitely the best of the bunch – because of the chemistry and the way the characters behaved towards each other. I think it helped too that Angell was a longer term recurring with a role that allowed her to interact with the others and that the writers focused on establishing her in that role before developing the relationship with Flack.

Peyton had that potential as well because she was in a role that should have allowed her to develop relationships with the other team members and function in a broader capacity than just Mac’s girlfriend. We did see some of that early on, but by the end, it seemed like the focus was primarily on her relationship with Mac. And I still think they made a mistake in the way they positioned the relationship from the start. Having her first scene be a bedroom scene sort of planted the seed that she was there first and foremost as “the love interest,” and it didn’t ring true to me that they were struggling with some of the issues we saw if they had really been dating for a year and were in the middle of an intimate relationship.

i agree completely - i liked that angell was brought in kind of gradually and in her own right - it gave the impression that she was just someone flack worked with and not "she's there because she's his girlfriend" - the interaction with the others was really important to that, the fact that there were scenes with her and not flack, and vice versa. also the fact that she teased him a bit (at least i seem to recall she did...) made it really believable, like they were this pair who joked around and stuff.

i agree about peyton too - that first scene was definitely setting out that she was "the girlfriend" and i dunno, it kind of undermined her scenes as ME a little bit, it was like "oh, let's give her some other scenes so she looks like she's doing something other than being mac's girlfriend". i would much rather she'd come in gradually as a member of the dept and then we found out that she and mac were going out as an aside, whereas it felt a bit like she was the girlfriend and her work was the side order. even the more dramatic scenes that she got (the body being nicked) seemed like they were contrived to show mac doing something with regard to her, rather than to show her doing her job.

Seconding the agreeing. While Angell was a "love interest character", that wasn't what she was at first. There was an entire season of her being her own character, and then in I believe the 7th episode of season four they introduced the idea of her flirting with Flack.

Peyton was introduced as the love interest character, but grew to fill the medical examiner role. I personally think it would've served better if they hadn't shown the first scene with them- at least not first. If they had shown her just walking up to the bridge, we would've gotten that little awkward-Mac moment, which would tip us off that something was different. Then at the end of the episode, with that little scene with the "separating work and personal" conversation it would've easily been realized that they had been seeing each other. Just my opinion, though.

 

[talkingtocactus]

If they had shown her just walking up to the bridge, we would've gotten that little awkward-Mac moment, which would tip us off that something was different. Then at the end of the episode, with that little scene with the "separating work and personal" conversation it would've easily been realized that they had been seeing each other. Just my opinion, though.

exactly!!

 

[Curiosity]

I personally think it would've served better if they hadn't shown the first scene with them- at least not first. If they had shown her just walking up to the bridge, we would've gotten that little awkward-Mac moment, which would tip us off that something was different. Then at the end of the episode, with that little scene with the "separating work and personal" conversation it would've easily been realized that they had been seeing each other. Just my opinion, though.

I agree. And I have wondered why they did in fact choose to put that scene first. Was it intended to shock the audience, or did they just feel like it was time for the leading man to have a bedroom scene? (It must have been especially surprising given that they ended the previous season with a strong Mac and Stella scene in "Charge of this Post.")

Anyway, I thouight I read somewhere that Gary Sinise had some misgivings about the whole thing but can't remember if that was just for the bedroom scene or the relationship with Peyton in general. It is interesting that they've seemed so intent on getting some sort of love interest for Mac over the last three seasons.

no worries, it's not the first time i've read stuff and i'm sure it won't be the last. i've done quite well at noticing spoilers before i read them and then just skipping them. i think we're fairly close to the end, maybe 3-4 weeks to go. actually 3 sounds right as the first dvd is out on 29th june so it must finish on tv just before that. [/ot]

I admire your willpower in trying to stay unspoiled. Having been disappointed by certain shows in the past, I read every spoiler possible for the shows I watch on a regular basis to avoid being blindsided by nasty surprises. :alienblush: It would be nice, though, to occasionally go into an episode unspoiled and just enjoy whatever comes.

Well, I hope you enjoy the rest of this season's episodes, and I'll be interested to read your thoughts on the Mac/Stella dynamic since I think at least some of the debate/discussion in this thread was sparked by things that happened in season five.

 

[Half]

no worries, it's not the first time i've read stuff and i'm sure it won't be the last. i've done quite well at noticing spoilers before i read them and then just skipping them. i think we're fairly close to the end, maybe 3-4 weeks to go. actually 3 sounds right as the first dvd is out on 29th june so it must finish on tv just before that. [/ot]

I admire your willpower in trying to stay unspoiled.

I dunno, I might have had lisasimpson beat... I didn't know spoilers existed until I joined TalkCSI. And then it just went downhill from there. :lol:

There really was no reason for that scene. I mean, I didn't mind it at the time but it didn't do much in the overall structure of the episode. It was almost like TPTB were saying "don't put too much stock in the character; she's only a love interest".

 

[talkingtocactus]

[
Anyway, I thouight I read somewhere that Gary Sinise had some misgivings about the whole thing but can't remember if that was just for the bedroom scene or the relationship with Peyton in general. It is interesting that they've seemed so intent on getting some sort of love interest for Mac over the last three seasons.

i read that as: he had misgivings about the bedroom - not quite what you (or he!) intended!

I read every spoiler possible for the shows I watch on a regular basis to avoid being blindsided by nasty surprises. :alienblush: It would be nice, though, to occasionally go into an episode unspoiled and just enjoy whatever comes.

Well, I hope you enjoy the rest of this season's episodes, and I'll be interested to read your thoughts on the Mac/Stella dynamic since I think at least some of the debate/discussion in this thread was sparked by things that happened in season five.

ah, yeah, i like being blindsided by surprises, nasty or otherwise. i don't need everything to be A SHOCK but i do like the unexpected.

i'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the rest of the series - i know about greece and i'm kind of annoyed i know because i'd have liked that to be a surprise but hey ho, i'll get over it. it's yahrzeit on uk telly tonight - i can't wait

I dunno, I might have had lisasimpson beat... I didn't know spoilers existed until I joined TalkCSI. And then it just went downhill from there. :lol:

There really was no reason for that scene. I mean, I didn't mind it at the time but it didn't do much in the overall structure of the episode. It was almost like TPTB were saying "don't put too much stock in the character; she's only a love interest".

oh i knew they were there, i just was very restrained (which is unlike me). edit - i've actually just read something by accident that basically gives away the biggest spoiler of the season. damn. i'll have to try to forget it

yeah, i agree, it was like a flag right from the start, waving over her head going "i'm just here for the sex" :lol: