"In a Dark, Dark House" Discussion *SPOILERS*

I was just saying why I thought Warrick was held in custody and Ray was not. Overall I don't agree in any case.

I hate how they wrote pretty much everyone backing him. I mean last season Greg was the one questioning if Ray had their backs and then this episode he is defending him. It ticks me off. The writers really screwed up the characters with this episode.

Dizzney said:

I was just saying why I thought Warrick was held in custody and Ray was not. Overall I don't agree in any case.

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Sorry...I wasn't responding directly to your post.

Dizzney said:

I hate how they wrote pretty much everyone backing him. I mean last season Greg was the one questioning if Ray had their backs and then this episode he is defending him. It ticks me off. The writers really screwed up the characters with this episode.

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I think so too. I even hated hearing Doc telling Ray he was a good man. Good men put people in cuffs and arrest them. They don't beat them to death out of revenge and throw them over railings.

1. Brass shouldn't have picked up the tie;

2. Ray should have realized that Brass picking it up was tampering with evidence;

and 3. If Ray really cared about justice, he would have bit the bullet and told Brass to put it back on the floor.

My momma always told me that once you tell one lie, you have to tell a dozen others to cover your a$$.

Well, I think you can say that Haskell won in the end.

Ray gave Nate exactly what he wanted. Cuffing Haskell and then bringing him in would have meant Ray won.

So now Ray has to live with what happened to Gloria, Brass lying for him, and putting everyone's career on the line.

He killed Haskell, he should've been arrested for it. I can give Ray that it could have started as self-defense, but it didn't end that way. The cuffs show that.

Too bad Ray wasn't strong enough not to give in.

Wow, this certainly was a dark episode for the team. I have mixed feelings about it overall, but there were a few highlights.

I enjoyed Catherine running the investigation. She and Sara knew exactly what happened, but were unable to prove it. And, I'm guessing Sara didn't know Brass' role in the cover-up. I liked Catherine's scene at the hospital with Gloria. I felt really, really, really sad for Gloria.

And, 'Rose'! (aka Mrs. Parks here) How good it was to see her again!

I thoroughly enjoyed the Sara/Greg scenes. I thought Sara really shined in this episode. Her follow-the-evidence Grissom-like attitude was refreshing. And her 'we have all had a moment in the dark' speech to Greg in the locker room was the crux of the episode, and the highlight, IMO.

I'm thankful Haskell is dead, but I'm so ambivalent about Ray's future. He really has tainted the team, as others have said; in all good conscience he should resign. He may be able to defend his actions, but how can he continue to work in law enforcement and with people who have risked their careers for him? I'm disappointed in Brass, also. He and Nick have always been 'by the book', yet both bent the rules for Ray in this story arc. I would have liked to have seen more of Nick's reaction to the evidence. Unfortunately, I think I dislike Ray even more after this. One more thing that bothered me: how can you plead self-defense when there is not a mark on you, and the other guy has been pummeled?

I thought Jeffrey Hunt did a great job directing! The scenes going through the house were very well done, the fight and the flashback scenes involving Gloria were pretty graphic; I liked the scene in the back yard, and the skeletons all laid out in the morgue.

It will be interesting to see how this is handled next season. As much as I would love to see this storyline go away, I'd like to see some fallout from all this; especially for Ray.

Smokey said:

That was the most ridiculous load of crap. The team should NOT have been the ones investigating! It should have been an impartial team. And Brass...good lord...why?? A cop should be a good cop...ALL of the time, regardless. I'm really, really disappointed in him.

Sara was just about the only one doing her job right tonight. Unfortunately, she was outnumbered and they're going to cover for Ray, a murderer. And for what??

And oh gee....I'm going to be "haunted all summer" about what Ray will do. Ummm...no...just like I wasn't worried last summer about whether or not he'd live.

So it looks like Season 12 will start off with more Haskell and Ray crap. Four seasons. Four f'n seasons tainted by that mess of a storyline.

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Yeah, that.

SO disappointed in Brass, who's always been shown as the straight-up good guy. Ray screwed up, Ray gave in to his inner rage or whatever. RAY should be the one to take the fall for it. He murdered someone, he deserves to be thrown in jail, not given a pat on the back and let back to work! :scream: How are we supposed to keep watching the show with him in it, given that we know what happened (even if the others may only suspect, not actually know, except Brass)?

Sara was great, the only one actually trying to look objectively at the evidence. Her "I'd open it" to Greg in the locker room was great.

Ecklie processing! How sad is it when Ecklie is a highlight of the episode though? :lol:

The actual content of the case aside though, I did like the episode - as others have said, it was back to being about the forensics and evidence (and not CSIs running around with guns drawn!).

I kinda feel slimey after watching this episode...

While I'm a bit anxious about what Ray is going to say and how it will impact the other's... at the same time he COULD still admit to it, without implicating anyone in a cover-up (how hard would it be for him to say he'd taken the zip-tie and pocketed it, and thrown it out on arrival at the hospital... having done volunteer work in a small local hospital, I can tell you that both the linen and other waste was collected and brought to waste management VERY frequently... at a larger scale hospital like what they've portrayed Desert Palms to be... probably more so, and a LOT more of it). But more than likely he's going to end up covering it up with a self defense line.

I must say, I do find it strange how the lines of those who seemed to 100% back Ray, and those who were leaning more towards wanting to let the evidence speak were drawn along the gender lines. Sara was determined from the begin to go with the evidence, even if it led her to something she didn't want to see... and it was quite apparent that Catherine was NOT pleased with Brass for covering up for Ray. While the gents, well, there's THAT whole issue with Brass ::facepalm::. Nick's been backing Ray all along. Robbins wanting to defend Ray to Catherine in autopsy and even to Ray himself. And Greg was trying to come up with any way to explain the evidence in such a way that it would say self defense.

Makes me wonder if the gender split was intentional or not.

I mean... thinking about it... males (characters on TV and in books, even ones I know) generally have the mindset of "I would kill anyone if they hurt my spouse/child/sister/mother/etc"... whereas females (same situation as males for my reference) tend more towards the "I would die to protect my spouse/child/sibling/parent/etc".

So while I am not pleased at ALL with the cover-up... nor do I think Ray's actions were in ANY way justified (not when he'd already had him restrained and had back-up on the way)... I can't help but wonder if those mindsets explain WHY the males on the team all wanted to stand by Ray, while the females were evidence-driven. That maybe the males all figured if they had been in his shoes, they would have done the same thing. It sure as hell doesn't excuse it... but maybe it explains it?

Ok, I'm going to have defend Nick a little here.

Yup, I agree Nick backed Ray many times and was on his side; last episode show that.

However, he was not involved in the looking/processing the self-defense evidence.

I truly think think that if Nick was involved he would have been like Sara too. I don't believe he would have allowed a cover up. After all he didn't shoot McKeen.

Like I said before, I gave Sara props for wanting the truth.

Catherine in the end, signed off on the report knowing there where cuffs used, so she wasn't doing the right thing, but in the sense that there was no cuffs, so no evidence, so no cold-blooded killing. She knew, that's why she questioned Brass about it.

In any case, I am disappointed in Brass too. However, I do have a question for everyone:

If it was Grissom instead of Ray would you still be upset that Brass hid evidence? Smokey, I already know your answer.

I would like to know how tptb are going to explain this one.

It's like Ray destroyed everything Grissom and the team built up.

Speedy, to answer your question... yeah... I'd be disappointed with Brass even if it was Grissom and not Ray in that position.

Moreover, I'd be beyond disappointed in Grissom in that situation for not STOPPING Brass from removing the evidence. I'd also be disappointed in Grissom for taking that choice when he COULD have left him cuffed and waited for backup. I'm disappointed in Ray for that as is.

But I'm a naive girl who still holds out a pipe dream that one day the good guys will always do no wrong, and that with the right help, even the baddest of the bad guys could hopefully be rehabilitated... and that there will never be cause for anyone to suffer through anything ever again. It's not reality though, which is why after an episode like this I feel even more let down than if it had just been a bad episode... ::sigh::

myfuturecsi said:

In my dream episode Ray says: I did and I must resign.

Damn!

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So...

1. In your "dream episode," CSILV concludes without resolutions for Laurence Fishburne or Marg Helgenberger for next season. Do you think CBS would come back for another season without both of these two?

2. I'm just glad the Haskell drama is over. I appreciate a plot being held over from season to season, but this is nuts. This is Memmo nuts. This is "guy who makes paper-mache recreations of his killings" nuts. This is Ray Caine is nuts. Thanks the heavens we can find some fresh story lines in the coming year...if there is a coming year.

3. All of the CSI franchises are getting boring. You can only have so many murders in New York, Miami and Las Vegas before other shows start to eat into their viewers. I'm happy "The Glades" got picked up...ostensibly a spoof of CSIM...and a lot more entertaining.

I think this was the worst season finale we've ever had. I don't even know what's the worst part: that Brass has started hiding evidence, that Ray can apparently kill people without consequences, or that the team has apparently started bending rules just to keep one of them safe- even after he's broken numerous rules.
There was some highlights,- like Ecklie actually doing processing, and the scene with Greg and Sara in locker room- but most of all, I'm really disapointed.

Speedystokesgirl said:

In any case, I am disappointed in Brass too. However, I do have a question for everyone:

If it was Grissom instead of Ray would you still be upset that Brass hid evidence?

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Then I'd be even more disapointed for Brass. It was practically Grissoms motto that you have to follow the evidence and leave you own emotions aside. And in this case Brass followed his emotions instead of doing the "right thing". If Grissom would have been in Ray's shoes (though I seriously doubt he would ever be), I belive Grissom would have told Brass to put it back on the floor and faced the consequences for his actions.

Smokey said:

That was the most ridiculous load of crap. The team should NOT have been the ones investigating! It should have been an impartial team. And Brass...good lord...why?? A cop should be a good cop...ALL of the time, regardless. I'm really, really disappointed in him.

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Yeah, I was really surprised at Brass considering he wasn't happy about Haskell being brought to Vegas originally to help with Jekyll.

Sara was just about the only one doing her job right tonight. Unfortunately, she was outnumbered and they're going to cover for Ray, a murderer. And for what??

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Yeah, I was surprised Sara was the one questioning it all. I guess I can understand Greg though because he had to go through a trial about the death of one kid who was involved in several assaults and at least one death. So, I guess he felt like he could relate to Ray.

And oh gee....I'm going to be "haunted all summer" about what Ray will do. Ummm...no...just like I wasn't worried last summer about whether or not he'd live.

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Yeah, I don't see anything haunting. I guess it was kind of freaky to see Ray actually stabbing Haskell multiple times and all of that... but really it wasn't much different than Hotch beating the ever living crap out of Foyet on Criminal Minds after Foyett had stabbed him repeatedly months earlier and then killed his ex wife and threatened his son.

So it looks like Season 12 will start off with more Haskell and Ray crap. Four seasons. Four f'n seasons tainted by that mess of a storyline.

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Hopefully it'll just be in the season premiere and after that, nothing more will ever be said about it... except maybe by Gloria and Ray if they talk about it or whatever. But this is one storyline I don't care if we get continuity on or not. I just want it to be over and Ray to move on to other cases or whatever.

And the IA guy (Jay Karnes), he always seems to play a creepy, sleezy guy everywhere I see him. Guess that's why he's perfect for an IA guy.

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Yeah, I've seen him somewhere recently, but can't figure out where. I wanna say In Plain Sight, but I"m not sure that's it lol.

And while Haskell may be dead, did I not hear him say something along the lines of leaving a piece of him with her? Or was I just hearing things?

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I thought he just meant that he raped her. I hope he didn't impregnate her.

Ray gave Nate exactly what he wanted. Cuffing Haskell and then bringing him in would have meant Ray won.

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Yep, exactly. Nate even kept saying, "yeah, keep it up, Ray" or something to that effect when Ray was stabbing him, "I knew you had it in you". You would think that would have made Ray stop. At first I thought maybe he just went over the cliff after realizing that Nate raped Gloria, which I would have understood to a point... but then Ray kept stabbing him and saying "you took my kidney, so I'll take yours" or something. It sounded like the classic "eye for an eye" thing. I mean yeah, Haskell deserved everything he got, but it was not the right way for Ray to handle it.

Next season is probably gonna be all about Ray questioning himself and whether the MAOMA gene (or whatever it is) finally kicked in.

Other thoughts on the episode:

Nick to Ray: I'd give you a hug right now, but unfortunately you're evidence. :adore: Nick's so sweet.


Loved Sara's emotional expression when she saw the closet Gloria had been held in. Really great acting from Jorja.

Loved Conrad helping the guys with the scene.

Ray was afraid to have a baby with Gloria because he was afraid of passing on the MAOMA gene (or whatever its called). Why didn't they just adopt?

One thing I'm wondering: Did Gloria witness Ray stabbing Haskell like that or was she so out of it that she didn't know what was going on?

I was so happy that Haskell was dead. Then came the cover-up. God that pissed me off. :scream:

If the purpose of the finale was to do that, then congratulations! I'm pissed! I mean really? Squeaky clean Brass assisting in this? Why the hell is Ray so f***ing special?! :brickwall:

I really can't comment any more on this episode. This just ruined the whole thing for me. Here's hoping for a better (and different) season 12.

I remember when the press release of the episode was posted "where a serial killer was born" I was imagining something out of Silent Hill :rommie:. Haskell using his satanic powers to impregnate Gloria with a clone :devil:


Oh and I agree the coverup was a sham but they needed the suspense for the next season :shifty:

bill_az said:

3. All of the CSI franchises are getting boring. You can only have so many murders in New York, Miami and Las Vegas before other shows start to eat into their viewers. I'm happy "The Glades" got picked up...ostensibly a spoof of CSIM...and a lot more entertaining.

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Miami is practically the only CSI show I halfheartedly watch when there's nothing on, the endings are always ludicrous and always contains a personal/spiritual moment, totally unreal.