Why Lindsay Must Go, Part 4

I always think of Manhattan Manhunt when she had the strop for being sent back to the lab and then the next season she is unable to cope at a crime scene. If she had been shown to struggle at the scene in Manhattan Manhunt even possibly asking to go back to the lab, than I would probably have been sympathetic and intrigued by her 'dark secret'. As it was I found the storyline dull and OOC from what had gone before and Anna portrayal of it was unable to draw me in either.

Perhaps she was able to assimilate the crime. Or at least she thought that and she only suppressed her memories. Until she was confronted with the trial and the murderer. I could imagine that being a CSI means to her that she would never become a victim again and she would be never helpless. Mac sending her back to lab- she could have had the feeling of failing to be able to handle with the situation. But I agree that it would have been better if Lindsay had been the one asking to go back to lab. It would have been more understandable.
Not being able to cope with the crime in season 3, it could result from the fact that she was faced with the trial. That could be something like a
second victimization, having to remember the crime, to tell everything again. She could have felt like being transported back to her youth.
Oh God, I don´t want to know how wrong I`m with that.:D But that was just my feeling when watching season 2 and 3.
 
^^I wouldn't say you're "wrong" at all - one of the problems is that we never really find out much about the various layers of Lindsay's character and her motivations, so we're left to do a lot of assuming. And because we all basically have to decide things for ourselves, we end up with vastly different views of the same scenes and behaviors.
 
I always think of Manhattan Manhunt when she had the strop for being sent back to the lab and then the next season she is unable to cope at a crime scene. If she had been shown to struggle at the scene in Manhattan Manhunt even possibly asking to go back to the lab, than I would probably have been sympathetic and intrigued by her 'dark secret'. As it was I found the storyline dull and OOC from what had gone before and Anna portrayal of it was unable to draw me in either.

Perhaps she was able to assimilate the crime. Or at least she thought that and she only suppressed her memories. Until she was confronted with the trial and the murderer. I could imagine that being a CSI means to her that she would never become a victim again and she would be never helpless. Mac sending her back to lab- she could have had the feeling of failing to be able to handle with the situation. But I agree that it would have been better if Lindsay had been the one asking to go back to lab. It would have been more understandable.
Not being able to cope with the crime in season 3, it could result from the fact that she was faced with the trial. That could be something like a
second victimization, having to remember the crime, to tell everything again. She could have felt like being transported back to her youth.
Oh God, I don´t want to know how wrong I`m with that.:D But that was just my feeling when watching season 2 and 3.

I see what you are saying but for me personally it was too much of a u-turn in terms of her attitude for the storyline to work.

I realise that the 'dark secret' was introduced due to Annas pregnancy, giving her a reason to be absent for a few episodes. However, Lindsay had shown no signs of being a victim in season 2 so it cames across as being forced and inconsistent - to me at least. I think it would have been better for Lindsay as a character if they had just said one of her relatives in Montana was ill and she had to go back to visit, that way they could have kept bright and breezy season 2 Lindsay.
 
In "Bad Beat", I think it was (the one where the guy got his face blown off through the door), they had Lindsay act 'affected' by hearing the 911 calls - I believe they pointed it out during the episode commentary on the DVDs, implying that it was relevant to her Dark Sekrit.

So they want us to believe they had at least some idea of what her dark secret would be in season 2, but they chose to have her be miffed in "Manhattan Manhunt" instead of being upset (and she even said she'd seen more blood before) - so she was affected by one reminder of her past but not another.

They could have had her past be anything, and they could have written anything they wanted to accommodate Anna's pregnancy - it's disappointing that they wrote something that contradicted earlier episodes and forces the audience to fill in the blanks, rather than writing something that would have worked with what had been shown onscreen already.

It's an ongoing series, what has gone before should have bearing on what happens as the show goes on. They shouldn't make decisions that seem to disregard previous episodes. It comes across as lazy writing IMO.
 
To JellyBelly:
And in Manhattan Manhunt, it just really became obvious how selfish she was. There was a huge massacre, and she was worried about her not being on the field? It's just immature to the nth degree.

Obvious to you, yes. To me, no. She came across as eager to please, the new girl who wanted to prove herself. To me that's natural human behaviour and is no more selfish than any of the other characters in similar positions - Aiden and the facial reconstruction thingemy comes to mind. Yes, Lindsay snapped at Danny but that was the nature of their relationship imo. They started out as competitive with a touch of animosity albeit in a relatively good natured way. I just can't bring myself to blame Lindsay for the way she has snapped at him when he equally set it up that way. I was all for Danny snapping back at her and I think if he had we'd have seen Lindsay having to find new ways to express herself which would have been interesting development-wise.

When she left evidence unattended during a lab inspection, Mac didn't respond harshly because she was upset - and this is the guy who jumped down Adam's throat for giving lab results to Mac's superior and chewed Hawkes out in the middle of the lab for not sharing that he talked to a victim once - instead, he gave her a light slap on the wrist.
It's like we're not supposed to see the things she does wrong as being wrong - the rest of the team indulges her and handles her with kid gloves, so we as viewers should do the same.

I see that, and I can understand that if you're not that keen on the character in the first place that's going to be annoying. I do think Mac's interactions with Lindsay are interesting. I would love to see that explored in some depth. I think there's a definite dynamic between them that he doesn't have with the other characters. I can't decide if it's chauvinism, but he does seem to be instinctively protective of her i.e. his concern in LWFM, his comments to Danny about her etc. I think it says a lot about Mac not seeing her as an equal. He views the guys as equal in terms of gender and he views Stella as equal in terms of position.

Right now, it seems like Lindsay being pregnant with Danny's baby is more about using her to add to Danny's drama - but when looking at Lindsay individually, since she's in the main credits and therefore should be a stand-alone character, all she seems to have is that she's carrying Danny's child and they just got married.

So they are both 'props' for each other, but in different ways. Danny props Lindsay up to give her some semblance of character structure, and Lindsay sometimes acts as nothing more than a stage prop in Danny's scenes.

(Yeah, rambly, but hopefully some of that made sense. :p)
It makes perfect sense but is a shame nontheless. I just wish they'd taken Lindsay in a different direction (either with or without Danny). I think it was possible to do that at one point and I still hope it's not too late but I've got a feeling it might be.

Why not create Lindsay's character to feature Anna as an actress and develop the character on her own?
Indeed.

I know some people are under the impression that this thread is all about the actress and blaming her for everything wrong with the character, but that's really not the case - the character is created by the writers and brought to life by the actress, so when there's a problem with Lindsay Monroe and people thing she "must go", it's a combination of both. Saying the character did something stupid is a comment about the fictional person created by the writers - it's nothing personal. And thinking the actress's portrayal leaves something to be desired isn't a comment on Anna as a person - acting is her job, that's it. Again, it's nothing personal.

I know some people are offended at the existence of the thread to begin with - but ultimately, it's no different than a thread praising a character. Strong opinions from fans, agreeing and disagreeing, commenting on past episodes and discussing how things could or should go from here - the only real difference is that this is a place to say things that are negative about a character rather than positive. It's no more powerful or relevant than any other thread - we're all fans on a message board, discussing the show and sharing our opinions.
Personally I'd rather see one 'love her or hate her' thread, but that's just me. I find myself in the middle groud where I see fault with the character and sometimes her portrayal but I basically like the character and believe that Anna does a good overall job of portraying her. I don't feel that debate is fostered when there are two threads. It seems as though you either have to love her and never criticise her or the complete opposite.

An awful lot of Lindsay fans have flown this coop in recent months. I think that's a shame because it does lead people to see this site as somewhere Lindsay fans can't come. I understand that some people may be offended by this thread's existence but I think it's fine as long as there's respect for each other and people reserve judgement on other's based solely on their opposing view. I really don't like being compared to a teenager because I like a character, particularly not when I'm a woman of advancing years with a life experience to match. :lol:

I enjoy a good debate where people can value each other's opinions, we're doing a good job of it here which is great.
 
jellyBelly said:
Yes, Lindsay snapped at Danny but that was the nature of their relationship imo. They started out as competitive with a touch of animosity albeit in a relatively good natured way.

While I agree, that they started off competitively, I never saw her side of it as all that good natured. When she snapped at Danny for calling her Montana, I really felt like she came off as not having enough sense of humor or ability to laugh at herself and this is where I can see the side of this that does stem from Belknap. Her line was fairly straight forward in saying her name was Lindsay not Montana, but it was just delivered with such an indignant haughtiness that the sneer on her face is forever burned into my brain. It left quite an impression on me and first impressions are hard to live down. It was a long time before I thought she'd been able to let go of that animosity, and even when it seemed she had, it still reared it's ugly head again from time to time.

The thing is, I wouldn't have disliked her character for having a rivalry with Danny or if she'd maintained that mean streak as being a part of her personality and not just something that comes out like a tantrum when Lindsay feels she's getting the short end of the stick. I kind of have a penchant for screw ups and jerks, so long as there is something there for me sympathize with. While I love Danny, giving him someone to compete with all the time would have been endlessly more entertaining to me. As much as I was surprised at her bark it was a lot more interesting than what they've turned her into.

That said, I do blame the writing too. They're definitely not innocent in this mess. For example I never appreciated that they did nothing to substantially address the fact that the new girl was here replacing an ex-colleague whom Danny and other's had very positive relations with. I saw Danny struggling to adjust to a new person in his life whom he kept at a distance early on. In most of the other CSI's when we've seen newcomers step in and replace the fired or deceased we're usually given a couple of scenes where the transition is addressed for characters who had a lot of attachment to those no longer with us. They've never addressed this with Lindsay's character and to see her and Danny suddenly being buddy buddy left me feeling like I'd missed an episode. Their dynamic seemed to shift without showing us how, why, or even when.

Personally I'd rather see one 'love her or hate her' thread, but that's just me. I find myself in the middle groud where I see fault with the character and sometimes her portrayal but I basically like the character and believe that Anna does a good overall job of portraying her. I don't feel that debate is fostered when there are two threads. It seems as though you either have to love her and never criticise her or the complete opposite.
I'd love to be able to casually have the kind of intelligent back and forth we're having right now in any thread, but it seems when that happens people feel their positive space is encroached upon. When our options seem to come down to allowing the discussion in separate places or simply not allowing discussion I'm glad TalkCSI has done what they can to find a place for it.

I really don't like being compared to a teenager because I like a character, particularly not when I'm a woman of advancing years with a life experience to match.
Nor should you. There's nothing people hate more than being crammed into the wrong pigeon hole and this applies to everyone on either side of the fence. It's unfortunate when a few people give an entire fandom or ship a bad rep. I'd rather not have my motivations for thinking the way I do reduced to the ravings of a loud and aggressive shipper, when I'm really not concerned with one ship or another. I also think that segregating these discussions helps eliminate a lot of that so again, if they have to be kept apart, I can live with that. :)

Faylinn said:
^^I wouldn't say you're "wrong" at all - one of the problems is that we never really find out much about the various layers of Lindsay's character and her motivations, so we're left to do a lot of assuming. And because we all basically have to decide things for ourselves, we end up with vastly different views of the same scenes and behaviors.

I think you hit a nail on the head here. The incredible difference in opinions about Lindsay says to me that perhaps TPTB need to tighten up her character. She fluctuates a lot, and those who are inclined to like her, for whatever reason, want to assume the best about her, while those who are inclined to dislike her, for whatever other reasons, end up assuming the worst. The problem is so much has to be assumed when this far in, it ought to be a little more clear for a primary cast member.
 
As for the other times, it's always been with Danny, probably because she felt a certain safety/comfort with him. I'm not saying that's good behaviour, but I do see it as being fairly usual bahaviour in people who don't express themselves well. Danny is partly responsible for allowing that pattern to continue.

He is, but as we've seen with Danny, he takes abuse and responds to it in an unhealthy way. That's part of the problem I have with seeing any good in them as a couple--Danny really only responds to people who treat him badly. I think both his relationships with Lindsay and Rikki reveal a good deal of self-hatred on Danny's part. That's probably a little OT, but I see Lindsay taking advantage of that and it makes me like her less.


And I see what you're saying but shouldn't the same principle be applied to all the characters then? Take Stella in Open & Shut, she was so obviously affected by her own trauma to the point where she was pretty dogmatic for a while there, as well as dismissing Lindsay's theory out of hand when so obviously influenced by her own experience. That's the bit I don't get, it seems to me as though Lindsay is villified for her behaviour when others are seen as being appropriately flawed and human.

But Stella was presented as being off base, and indeed, was proved wrong by the end of the episode. Lindsay is never really taken to task for her bad behavior, save for that one time in "Silent Night" by Stella. Indeed, other times we've seen her get off scot free where other characters would have been chewed out, like Mac's OOC behavior towards her in "Like Water for Murder."

I miss season 2 Lindsay. I like season 5 Lindsay and I'm invested in her character, but I really would have chosen a different route than the writers chose. I think there have been so many unanswered questions and I think the writers have used Lindsay's relationship with Danny for dramatic affect as opposed to consistency and believability.

Definitely agreed. And I do wonder if it was winding down before Anna got pregnant.

One of the common sayings in this thread is that Danny's used to prop up Lindsay in the show. I see it as Lindsay being used to add more dramatic impact to Danny's storylines, certainly in the past two seasons. And whilst the argument that Carmine is better than Anna at the dramatic/angsty character portrayal is valid, if they'd really wanted to do her character justice then they'd have played to her strengths.

I think she's become a love interest character and little more. She's not had any development outside of the relationship with Danny since season three. I still think Danny kind of justifies her continued existence on the show, but I do see your point about her being a catalyst for his storylines, especially this season with the baby.

I see that, and I can understand that if you're not that keen on the character in the first place that's going to be annoying. I do think Mac's interactions with Lindsay are interesting. I would love to see that explored in some depth. I think there's a definite dynamic between them that he doesn't have with the other characters. I can't decide if it's chauvinism, but he does seem to be instinctively protective of her i.e. his concern in LWFM, his comments to Danny about her etc. I think it says a lot about Mac not seeing her as an equal. He views the guys as equal in terms of gender and he views Stella as equal in terms of position.

I think the point about him not viewing her as an equal is a good one. He doesn't--though I think he did back in season two. I wonder if that isn't partially Lindsay's own fault--her handling of the relationship with Danny has been immature to say the least.


I know some people are under the impression that this thread is all about the actress and blaming her for everything wrong with the character, but that's really not the case - the character is created by the writers and brought to life by the actress, so when there's a problem with Lindsay Monroe and people thing she "must go", it's a combination of both. Saying the character did something stupid is a comment about the fictional person created by the writers - it's nothing personal. And thinking the actress's portrayal leaves something to be desired isn't a comment on Anna as a person - acting is her job, that's it. Again, it's nothing personal.

I know some people are offended at the existence of the thread to begin with - but ultimately, it's no different than a thread praising a character. Strong opinions from fans, agreeing and disagreeing, commenting on past episodes and discussing how things could or should go from here - the only real difference is that this is a place to say things that are negative about a character rather than positive. It's no more powerful or relevant than any other thread - we're all fans on a message board, discussing the show and sharing our opinions.
Personally I'd rather see one 'love her or hate her' thread, but that's just me. I find myself in the middle groud where I see fault with the character and sometimes her portrayal but I basically like the character and believe that Anna does a good overall job of portraying her. I don't feel that debate is fostered when there are two threads. It seems as though you either have to love her and never criticise her or the complete opposite.

An awful lot of Lindsay fans have flown this coop in recent months. I think that's a shame because it does lead people to see this site as somewhere Lindsay fans can't come. I understand that some people may be offended by this thread's existence but I think it's fine as long as there's respect for each other and people reserve judgement on other's based solely on their opposing view. I really don't like being compared to a teenager because I like a character, particularly not when I'm a woman of advancing years with a life experience to match. :lol:

I enjoy a good debate where people can value each other's opinions, we're doing a good job of it here which is great.

I have to say, I'm really enjoying this discussion. It's nice to be able to discuss our different viewpoints of the characters without getting hostile or upset with each other.

I'm definitely sorry to see that some Lindsay fans have left the site. I know there are other sites out there where people who don't like her don't feel welcome. It's a tough balance sometimes between making it open to both sides--it's hard for it not to slant one way or another. That's in part the reason for the positive and negative thread split about the character--I know it sucks to always have to defend a character you like, hence the existence of the Anna/Lindsay thread, for people who like her to discuss the character. Not to say people who don't like her can't talk about her there--but we generally try to keep the negativity there to a minimum so that people can feel like they have a place to discuss her without constantly having to debate the merits or demerits of the character.

This thread isn't like that--people who love the character are welcome and encouraged to come in and debate the points here. So long as it's all civil, I think good debate is a really fun way to get into the show and look at it from different angles.
 
When she snapped at Danny for calling her Montana, I really felt like she came off as not having enough sense of humor or ability to laugh at herself and this is where I can see the side of this that does stem from Belknap. Her line was fairly straight forward in saying her name was Lindsay not Montana, but it was just delivered with such an indignant haughtiness that the sneer on her face is forever burned into my brain. It left quite an impression on me and first impressions are hard to live down. It was a long time before I thought she'd been able to let go of that animosity, and even when it seemed she had, it still reared it's ugly head again from time to time.

Lindsay being uptight in season 2 was part of why I liked her. It was nice having a character come in who didn't exactly fit. One of the things I found a little annoying in season 1 was how all the females were portrayed as being 'tough girls'. Don't get me wrong, I like women being portrayed as tough but there was something refreshing and realistic about having a woman who was trying to be tough but deep down was struggling with that.

As for her not being able to laugh at herself, I think she did that fairly early on. The early banter between her and Danny was fun. There were many times where she genuinely seemed happy with the back and forth between the two of them e.g. Danny's 'country girl' comment in Zoo York and the whole 'I'll take the paper because there might be something on it'. She was smiling in both those scenes and didn't seem to mind being railed on.

I do think part of the problem as Fay pointed out, is that Lindsay's actions are rarely well explained. They gave us moments where she seemed affected and traumatised but waited virtually a whole season before even beginning to explain it. It was hard to understand where she was coming from and there was a certain inconsistency about her reactions. I do place the blame firmly on the shoulders of the writers though.

I'd love to be able to casually have the kind of intelligent back and forth we're having right now in any thread, but it seems when that happens people feel their positive space is encroached upon. When our options seem to come down to allowing the discussion in separate places or simply not allowing discussion I'm glad TalkCSI has done what they can to find a place for it.

I've dabbled on other sites but usually manage to upset someone because I really don't sit on a particular side of the fence. In fact I shift quite significantly and often find myself actually sitting on the fence.


I think you hit a nail on the head here. The incredible difference in opinions about Lindsay says to me that perhaps TPTB need to tighten up her character. She fluctuates a lot, and those who are inclined to like her, for whatever reason, want to assume the best about her, while those who are inclined to dislike her, for whatever other reasons, end up assuming the worst. The problem is so much has to be assumed when this far in, it ought to be a little more clear for a primary cast member.

That's exactly it imo. I want to see the best in her because I liked her from the beginning. I get irritated by her at times e.g. for not being more overt or demonstrative in her support of Danny after Ruben's death, but it didn't stop me from liking her because I saw it as her own inadequacies with emotional situations.

He is, but as we've seen with Danny, he takes abuse and responds to it in an unhealthy way. That's part of the problem I have with seeing any good in them as a couple--Danny really only responds to people who treat him badly. I think both his relationships with Lindsay and Rikki reveal a good deal of self-hatred on Danny's part. That's probably a little OT, but I see Lindsay taking advantage of that and it makes me like her less.

I don't consider Lindsay's treatment of Danny as being abusive, that's too strong a word for me. But, I really would have loved to see Danny responding in kind when she's snapped at him. I think that would have made for an interesting dynamic. As for whether they make a good couple or not, while theirs isn't the kind of relationship I would want for myself, there are millions of couples like them in R/L. Certainly many comedies have portrayed the 'screaming shrew' or a wife and 'poor put upon' husband. Then again this isn't a comedy and actually I don't see them as 'screaming shrew' and 'poor put upon' anyway. I think I'm confusing myself. :confused: I guess what I'm saying is that successful couples often come from the strangest of pairings, at least from what I've seen.


I think she's become a love interest character and little more. She's not had any development outside of the relationship with Danny since season three. I still think Danny kind of justifies her continued existence on the show, but I do see your point about her being a catalyst for his storylines, especially this season with the baby.

I just don't think it needs to be that way. Although right now it probably does because of the whole baby/wedding thing. But, I personally think that Anna could have handled Lindsay's character development outside of D/L if the writer's had given her the material and if they'd have written it for her as an actor. But, I'm not sure that's necessarily anything against the character on the part of the writer's, they've sorely neglected Hawkes and to a certain extent Flack, until the current season at least. I think the writer's really seem to struggle balancing the personal storylines. They've been focusing more on Hawkes, Flack and Adam this season, still need to keep the ball in the air for Mac and Stella as the leads, but seem to have used the baby as an excuse not to develop either Danny or Lindsay outside of that. Although the most recent episode did have interesting Danny development.

I think the point about him not viewing her as an equal is a good one. He doesn't--though I think he did back in season two. I wonder if that isn't partially Lindsay's own fault--her handling of the relationship with Danny has been immature to say the least.

But Mac isn't the omnipotent author/viewer of the story. I doubt he knows any detail about the D/L relationship other than it's had it's ups and downs. I wonder if his view of her is actually clouded by her struggle with her past. He told her she was strong and that she would get through it but I wonder if he didn't really believe that. He knew about it before she told him but obviously hadn't discussed it with her (which I would have thought he should have done). Part of that is likely to be Mac's own issue with getting ivolved in anything too emotionally messy. But, her vulnerability was exposed to him when she had to testify. I haven't really got a clue, but I do know that a lot of victims of crime prefer not to tell people because it might change how they are viewed. Particularly women and particularly in the workplace.
 
First, I'm enjoying the back and forth going on here! :)

I also think Faylinn's 'rambly' post concisely said alot of things I agree with, but it's not gonna stop me from rambling myself. :p Sorry in advance. There's lots to delve into here and catch up on. ;)

Regards Poppet's question of character versus casting, I dunno. In a way Lindsay's a character who's a bit of a cipher. With the rest of the cast I can't imagine anyone else playing their roles. The casting fits the characters and the portrayal has me believing who they are, regardless of whether I agree or not with what they do or how they do it on a weekly basis. S2 Lindsay had all sorts of potential, and I have no idea where it all went. When we get glimmers now of the spirit she more consistently showed then, it's almost something I regard with a certain amount of suspicious skepticism :lol: because I don't get who she is. As a result of the roller-coaster combination of writing and performance, I'm not in the least invested in her as a character, and have a hard time seeing what it is she contributes to the ensemble and to the show.

How other characters have reacted to her have often had me thinking their behaviour OOC. That too impacts me as a viewer of the show, and my take on how she fits within it.

Would she be more likeable played by someone else? I liked her well enough in S2. Kind of a moot point to me in a way because no one's obliged to like a character on a show. I have both liked and disliked House for various reasons, but he was still generally compelling to watch when I've tuned in. Sometimes I like Mac, sometimes he gets up my nose, but he's interesting onscreen. Same with Stella. Same with Danny. (The others, as much as I do love them, are interesting onscreen but don't seem to challenge me in quite the same way :lol:) I just can't say Lindsay's a compelling or integral presence onscreen. Whether a different actor could have turned out a more engaging version of the character, or even a more defined one, sure it's possible, but as I said, this was much less of an issue in S2, for whatever reason.

I think when Lindsay gets stressed she tends to snap because she's not able to express it in a more mature way. I wouldn't say she treats people badly. Her behaviour that time with Stella was bad and Stella gave her the metaphorical slap that she needed, she was then able to confide in Stella.
I was so fed up with the 'mysterious moments' I was relieved and applauding Stella by the time that came around. I also wondered why no one else ever calls her out on things. I gotta wonder why no one else has been given much beyond the lightest of interaction with her at all. Besides Danny? Mac I guess. The mushy Mac we get with her is wasabi to me (crawls up your nose and burns like C4, but at least that's in the course of something enjoyable). She did confide in Mac after Reuben's death, saying she wasn't good at comforting people. But beyond that, she's still largely 'exposition woman.' Others get some great scenes together, some great little moments and a sense of connection. I've never felt that Lindsay's had that with the others to the same degree. Early in the season they were giving her more of the light comedic stuff with Flack and Stella, and I guess more recently with Sid, but even that was a little hit and miss with me.

That's the bit I don't get, it seems to me as though Lindsay is villified for her behaviour when others are seen as being appropriately flawed and human.
For me, it's that Lindsay hasn't been intended to be seen as flawed, I think her behaviour was meant to be excusable if only we knew what was troubling her, poor muffin. That kind of kid glove handling has also been annoying. Additionally, she's not been given enough depth to seem terribly complex. At least, the portrayal of the material she's been given didn't lead me to see her that way. I can recognize the intent in some of the moments given to her, but there's a duality in that intent versus how it often reads to me onscreen. Subjective, sure, but there's also gotta be a lil somthing more to it when many others seem to notice the same.

Lindsay hasn't been held accountable in the same ways as the others. If she ever had been I think that would have changed my feelings about her at least a little bit. Might have made those moments both acknowledged and also constructive. This inconsistency leads to discussions because it's puzzling, and is another way she's somehow set apart. When Mac has a pissy tantrum and craps down Adam's labcoat or rips Sheldon one, or even argues with Stella, we discuss whether it was warranted or not, or even what the exchange was meant to illustrate. No, we don't say Mac was evil but nor do we all agree with how he handled things. Hell, other characters disagree with him and call him out on stuff, like Flack and Stella, and even Peyton at one point. Similarly, when Stella had her moment, I don't think anyone read it as acceptable but saw it highlighted as being out of the ordinary and a story element that would be dealt with as the ep ran it's course. When Lindsay gets pissy and throws a snit we do the same thing and talk about what the exchange was meant to illustrate, and no, we don't all agree with how she handles things. I'm not convinced we treat her any differently for the discussions had, only that she tends to generate extremely strong opinions. Part of that stems from the fact that within the realm of the show, Lindsay's not treated the same, not by her colleagues, not given the same treatment by the writers even in that regard. With Lindsay, the 'flawed' moments don't seem to lead to any growth or resolution or even acknowledgement, if not by her as a character, than at least by the presentation of the story in a way that a viewer can say was deliberately done.

Aw hell, I dunno if any of that made any sense at all :lol: :lol:

What I suppose I really have a problem with is a lack of nuance and subtlety with Lindsay, and with Anna's performances. That leads me to feel a real lack of depth to her character. With someone like Flack, Adam, Sheldon, or even Sid, there's a subtlety in shading where I can buy there's more to them than we're either told or shown. I suppose that's a reason why I'm always up in the writer's kitchen to do more with Hawkes. :p

One of the common sayings in this thread is that Danny's used to prop up Lindsay in the show. I see it as Lindsay being used to add more dramatic impact to Danny's storylines, certainly in the past two seasons. And whilst the argument that Carmine is better than Anna at the dramatic/angsty character portrayal is valid, if they'd really wanted to do her character justice then they'd have played to her strengths.
I can see what you're getting at, but I'm not all that keen on what I see as the resulting impact on Danny's character. As for playing to Anna's strengths, that certainly doesn't seem to be emotionally laden material, be it dark secrets, an ever troubled relationship, or a resulting pregnancy. And again, even the lighter stuff doesn't seem to gel for me as often as it once did. I would say the writers should simply concentrate on improving and rounding out the character, even just on paper, and see what can come of it with Anna. I would say that, but she'd never be a factor drawing me to watch the show. Not now.

I do think Mac's interactions with Lindsay are interesting. I would love to see that explored in some depth. I think there's a definite dynamic between them that he doesn't have with the other characters.
(First, I think Stella would kick Mac's ass back to boot camp if she thought he didn't see her as an equal :lol:. The indication is that they've been partners for a long time, far too long for him to only base any view of her merits or professional 'parity' on her job title alone.)

I think the dichotomy of Mac's interactions are interesting. A different take on things might be to suggest he holds Lindsay to lesser standards somehow. He's also had quieter moments with Danny, Stella, even Adam. He's had moments of confiding in Sheldon (Mrs. Azrael for example) and Flack (about Peyton), and more than a few where we do get to see the longtime friendship between Mac and Stella. The anomaly for me is why Lindsay gets the soft handling and not the same equality in the professional capacity that the others do, especially in an instance where she coulda seriously compromised a lab inspection. The demonstrations where she guinea-pigs Mac were her lighter moments (but still exposition) that also let Mac be poked and not taken so seriously. They served a purpose that scenes with Adam often do now. Sorry to say I think the ones with Adam are more fun to watch. Mac asking after Lindsay now (as opposed to Stella in S3) has me more curious about Mac than interested in Lindsay.

I just wish they'd taken Lindsay in a different direction (either with or without Danny). I think it was possible to do that at one point and I still hope it's not too late but I've got a feeling it might be.
So do I. Honestly. :) And no, I dunno where they go with her from here either.

Personally I'd rather see one 'love her or hate her' thread, but that's just me. I find myself in the middle groud where I see fault with the character and sometimes her portrayal but I basically like the character and believe that Anna does a good overall job of portraying her. I don't feel that debate is fostered when there are two threads. It seems as though you either have to love her and never criticise her or the complete opposite.
I have moments where I see faults in all the characters, whether deliberately depicted or unfortunate fallout from how an eppie got put together. Moments where I like or dislike them for different reasons within an episode. I don't feel things are so polarized as to exclude a middle ground. I hope not anyways. I think discussion happens wherever there's a forum that supports it, and that's obviously gonna be easier or more welcomed in some threads than others. I'm glad there is a thread like this that allows for a civil exchange where toes won't be stepped on, or at least you might have fair warning to an inclination to wear steel toes if you're concerned. Same sort of deal goes for the Ship Debate threads. And it's definitely interesting when not everyone agrees. :) Mebbe even moreso.

I often find the spoiler threads and review threads are really great for discussions, for talking about possibilities and getting differing takes on aired episodes and getting widely varying points of view there, because they're more show based, and anything or any character is up for debate within that context. I do think a middle ground is entirely possible, moreso if dialogue happens. :)

While I love Danny, giving him someone to compete with all the time would have been endlessly more entertaining to me. As much as I was surprised at her bark it was a lot more interesting than what they've turned her into.
Well, I saw the early dynamic as having elements of a bit of a rivalry, but not in the same fun way as with Aiden. :lol: Those two really did have a great dynamic.

I got the feeling that Lindsay, being new, was a little defensive and felt she didn't need to be treated as a newbie and merited better, even if she saw Danny's behaviour towards her as a bit of good natured bluster and part of his charm. ;) Though again, we only got the smallest snippets hinting at her marvelous career in Montana before she came to NY.

Consider as a comparison the introduction of Riley on Vegas. I wasn't sure I was gonna warm to her, but with her I grew a respect as well as eventually starting to warm to her character. Whatever my take on S2 Lindsay was, it washed away in S3 and after.

I have to say, I'm really enjoying this discussion. It's nice to be able to discuss our different viewpoints of the characters without getting hostile or upset with each other.

So long as it's all civil, I think good debate is a really fun way to get into the show and look at it from different angles.
Again, those are reasons why I enjoy this forum, this particular thread, as well as the reviews and spoiler discussions, as that's where a lot of good back and forth seems to take place. :)

That general inclusiveness is definitely a reason that after a substantial period of time I felt comfortable enough to emerge from shadows of lurkdom to find my way into participating. It wasn't an easy thing to step into initially, at least not for me, but it's been a lotta fun and I'm glad I did. And it also makes the shows more fun to watch as well, knowing there's an armada of people out there happy to chat about it in this fashion. That's just me. :p

Lindsay being uptight in season 2 was part of why I liked her. It was nice having a character come in who didn't exactly fit. One of the things I found a little annoying in season 1 was how all the females were portrayed as being 'tough girls'. Don't get me wrong, I like women being portrayed as tough but there was something refreshing and realistic about having a woman who was trying to be tough but deep down was struggling with that.
I think there was a deliberate shift in having Lindsay not be from NY, not be comparable to Aiden, be tough from the merits of her own background and backstory, which have unfortunately been reducable to a nickname, 'Montana,' and the Dark Secret (also from Montana). I think what was interesting was her trying to fit into not only the labs but into NY; new city, new job, new co-workers, I mean that's a helluva jump to make, and I think they coulda done more with that, used it to highlight New York City even more in a way.

But, I personally think that Anna could have handled Lindsay's character development outside of D/L if the writer's had given her the material and if they'd have written it for her as an actor. But, I'm not sure that's necessarily anything against the character on the part of the writer's, they've sorely neglected Hawkes and to a certain extent Flack, until the current season at least. I think the writer's really seem to struggle balancing the personal storylines. They've been focusing more on Hawkes, Flack and Adam this season, still need to keep the ball in the air for Mac and Stella as the leads, but seem to have used the baby as an excuse not to develop either Danny or Lindsay outside of that. Although the most recent episode did have interesting Danny development.
She wasn't neglected. I think they did try to develop Lindsay, with the Dark Secret line. That was the first substantial material devoted entirely to her, no matter if it came about as a result of managing Anna's pregnancy at the time. It did not elicit a huge amount of empathy or even curiousity from me, due a combo of the writing and because of Anna's performances. I do think it's a tricky thing to balance, the number of characters and creating insights into them, but every small moment devoted, and scene between them helps to fill things in and colour the characters, and is like a small treat. I'll take whatever I can get. Because procedural show or no, if I'm not interested in the characters then I'm not :censored: watching! :lol:

As for DL or rather D & L. I was all happy and revived in my openess to Lindsay's character upon hearing Danny and Lindsay were initially supposed to be taken in new and separate directions in S5. I was massively, grievously bummed when DL raised it's head again instead. Absolutely sunk the hopes I had of seeing either re-emerge as an individual to have development that stems from a little alone time :lol: I cannot even begin to tell ya. ;)


(And um, sorry for the excessive length here).
 
Last edited:
I don't consider Lindsay's treatment of Danny as being abusive, that's too strong a word for me. But, I really would have loved to see Danny responding in kind when she's snapped at him. I think that would have made for an interesting dynamic.

Abusive might be too strong a word at this point, but I think a lot of her treatment of him has been pretty shoddy. I'd have loved to see Danny snap back at her, too, but that's not Danny. When people yell at him or get upset with him, he just shuts down and takes it. He exhibits the same behavior with Mac.

As for whether they make a good couple or not, while theirs isn't the kind of relationship I would want for myself, there are millions of couples like them in R/L. Certainly many comedies have portrayed the 'screaming shrew' or a wife and 'poor put upon' husband. Then again this isn't a comedy and actually I don't see them as 'screaming shrew' and 'poor put upon' anyway. I think I'm confusing myself. :confused: I guess what I'm saying is that successful couples often come from the strangest of pairings, at least from what I've seen.

I guess if we'd seen more of the good, I'd be more prepared to buy them as a couple. But most of what we've seen has been unpleasant or unhappy. The flashback scene in "Snow Day" was cute, but there's been so little of stuff like that.

But Mac isn't the omnipotent author/viewer of the story. I doubt he knows any detail about the D/L relationship other than it's had it's ups and downs. I wonder if his view of her is actually clouded by her struggle with her past. He told her she was strong and that she would get through it but I wonder if he didn't really believe that. He knew about it before she told him but obviously hadn't discussed it with her (which I would have thought he should have done). Part of that is likely to be Mac's own issue with getting ivolved in anything too emotionally messy. But, her vulnerability was exposed to him when she had to testify. I haven't really got a clue, but I do know that a lot of victims of crime prefer not to tell people because it might change how they are viewed. Particularly women and particularly in the workplace.

I worded my response badly--I meant that Mac has seen/heard about her behavior as a whole. No doubt he heard about her leaving the crime scene in "Silent Night." He's also been the subject of plenty of her demonstrations, which, while some might find cute, also don't put her on equal or even usual subordinate footing with him. Can you see Danny or Hawkes doing experiments with him? Lindsay plays on the "little girl" thing a bit too often. I can see why Mac would take her less seriously because of it. The other women on this show and the other CSI shows don't do that. When you throw how public she's made her relationship with Danny--at least Danny, until he got her pregnant, kept it between the two of them--it's understandable why Mac might patronize her. She invites it with her childish behavior.

She wasn't neglected. I think they did try to develop Lindsay, with the Dark Secret line. That was the first substantial material devoted entirely to her, no matter if it came about as a result of managing Anna's pregnancy at the time. It did not elicit a huge amount of empathy or even curiousity from me, due a combo of the writing and because of Anna's performances. I do think it's a tricky thing to balance, the number of characters and creating insights into them, but every small moment devoted, and scene between them helps to fill things in and colour the characters, and is like a small treat. I'll take whatever I can get. Because procedural show or no, if I'm not interested in the characters then I'm not :censored: watching! :lol:p

While I would never presume to speak for the writers, I can't help but notice that Anna got a shot with a great storyline in season three and failed miserably at it. She's failed to add depth to Lindsay's character since that revelation--we saw her in one episode holding a shotgun with a completely blank look on her face, though that was the kind of weapon used to kill her friends. We've not seen a single hint of that dark secret since the trial episode. There's just no depth to her acting, and I think the reason she hasn't gotten much development outside of Danny is that her performance doesn't warrant it.
 
While I would never presume to speak for the writers, I can't help but notice that Anna got a shot with a great storyline in season three and failed miserably at it. She's failed to add depth to Lindsay's character since that revelation--we saw her in one episode holding a shotgun with a completely blank look on her face, though that was the kind of weapon used to kill her friends. We've not seen a single hint of that dark secret since the trial episode. There's just no depth to her acting, and I think the reason she hasn't gotten much development outside of Danny is that her performance doesn't warrant it.

Yeah, I agree. It's a mix of inconsistency (which is mostly the writers' faults) and Anna Belknap's lack of emotions. They should play to her strengths. She's okay in the actual scientific scenes, and some humor scenes. Verge into the emotional though, and things get iffy. Like Silent Night...
 
Just a random question: Was the´dark secret´ changed because of Anna Belknap´s pregnancy?
And if it was changed, any information what was originally planned for Lindsay?
 
I've gone from being in the Lindsay must go side to having my butt firmly imbedded in the fence. To me the main problem has always been the writing. The Lindsay character has always been really poorly defined, and I am left wondering what kind of direction Anna is given in understanding her character, when the writers clearly don't know who Lindsay is.

For such a successful show, the writing is very poor. Every week, I find myself day-dreaming of how well the episode could have gone with the clever premise for the show, because every week the end result seems poor compared to the ideas they have come up with for the storyline.

The successful characters for me are those were the actor seems to have built the character up themselves. In the beginning, I didn't see the point of Flack at all, Eddie changed that. As I said in another thread, the writers cannot give us decent lab rats (like in CSI), but AJ brought us Adam, I doubt the writers can claim that success. Carmine gave us a facinating character in Danny, the writers have done their best to wreck the character in recent seasons, by not knowing him or even knowing his background. The jokes are never particularly funny and fall flat, unless delivered by Flack and Adam (and to some extent Angel), though Danny's jokes being flat come across as part of the character.

Anna (and to me Hill is in the same bracket) doesn't have the skills to drag her character out of the page, in spite of the poor writing. To be fair, they are actors and should be given ample material to work with. Their characters are bland and mostly used as lab rat material, and as I've already stated, to this show lab rats are not seen as important. It doesn't keep my attention when Lindsay does demonstrations or Hawkes gives preachy sounding, essay length explanations, when they are asked for lab results, and both seem to read the script instead of interpreting it. That said, I've seen Anna in other things and never noticed any problems with her acting skills. I've never seen Hill in anything else, so cannot really evaluate him professionally.

I've now come to the conclusion that the writers main problem is that they try far too hard to please the fans, instead of engaging the viewers. The fact they thought to make the DL fanvid and montage was extremely weird and worrying, and I wonder where this will lead for other characters / relationships.

Of course my reason for now wanting Anna to stay is absolutely nothing to do with Anna / Lindsay, which in itself is a problem. I don't want them to over-egg the pudding in the already angst-soaked Danny character. I still love the character, though I generally want to throttle him, but pining after Lindsay and struggling to bring up baby is not a story I'm interested in watching. If I wanted to watch soaps, I'd be tuning into Corrie or Eastenders (God forbid). I'm always at the end of my tether with this show, but would miss the genuine acting skills of the majority of the actors.
 
Here's the thing, I am practically as ambigious as her character here. That was a joke. Laugh ;)

I like some of her lighter parts, and I think 'hey, she's kinda funny', but then I remember that it doesn't take much to be funny. I mean, my History class is funny, and it's 8 in the morning so imagine how like out of it we are then to think some things are funny. I like humor, and that's what got me on the show. I have to say that I didn't even notice her character when I watched my first episode, ...Comes Around.

I also disagree with the statement that she was being completely selfish in Manhattan Manhunt. Look, she was new then and she wanted to feel important. We all want to feel that. Plus, as a CSI she can't become emotionally attached to every case because then she would be detrimental to the case. Let's say that the writers hadn't written in her pregnancy as that blood bath that she had to testify against, and that they actually meant to do that when they hinted at something like that when Lindsay told Danny that she had seen more blood than that. I think that she really didn't want to be back in that place where she was helpless. She wanted to be important. Were her intentions completely pure? No. But was it a little bit understandable? Yes.

But on the other end, I do agree that she has no emotion. In Admissions, she showed no emotion when that girl was talking about how she had been raped, and I think any person would have emotion. No one's a robot. I think even Mac would've been a better choice for her to tell that to (even if that would have been extremely awkward) because I get the feeling that he would have showed emotion. I think a random person off the street would have showed emotion!

But also maybe Anna wants her character to be bad with emotion... okay I've said stupider things before, but it's always possible.

There's my two cents. I'm not a huge fan of her character, but I'm not completely heartless toward her. Well, I'm not on some days...
 
Just a random question: Was the´dark secret´ changed because of Anna Belknap´s pregnancy?
And if it was changed, any information what was originally planned for Lindsay?
I don't think we've seen anything to indicate that they changed what they were planning. It's possible that they had a vague idea but didn't iron out the fine details until they chose to write it into season 3, but again, I don't have anything to support that.

She mentioned having seen a lot of blood in "Manhattan Manhunt", and in "Bad Beat" (I think it was) she was affected by hearing the 911 calls. So my guess is that they at least had a general idea of what her past was in season 2 (and it doesn't really contradict what we learned in season 3).
 
Back
Top