No attacks here, I promise, just obviously a disagreement.
As you guys keep saying it’s too bad that writers don’t know what to do with their characters ‘cause you’re absolutely right!!! But this doesn’t mean they’ll be able to improve.
What I am trying to say (possibly without getting boos because of it ) is: look, we have bad writers who don’t know how to handle their own creatures, how can you want them to create something new/refreshing for the characters they keep ignoring or better say ridiculing????? I guess it’s a little bit too hard for them, don’t you think?
We wouldn't be here if there weren't a time in this series that we absolutly loved it, & loved/liked the characters, so, imo, yes they do have the ability to improve/return to their roots -- we've seen what they CAN do, it's what lured us into being here in the first place.
Will they make a mess out of any storyline they give Ryan or Natalia? Maybe. But does that mean we should just sit back & watch them do nothing while the "A trio" get's all the storylines? No, absolutely not.
the only other possible solution I can find is…”hire someone new”…actor/author…whatever!!!
I just can't see how a new character can solve any solution. New blood definitly brings freshness to the show but it won't necessarily fix anything. Maybe to a viewer who is bored with the existing characters, then sure, I can see where the new blood is interesting for them - maybe that's the point you've reached. If so, then that's absolutly fine & I understand. However, there are still fans here who aren't the least bored with Ryan, Natalia, or Frank & want to see the characters further developed.
I can understand it with H and eventually (as they did) with Calleigh and Eric (though, they ruined everything, at least IMHO). They also brought Speed’s parents for his funeral. I can understand them since they were part of the ORIGINAL team, but I wouldn’t accept it for any other member of the team.
I have to briefly mention another show here just for comparison. I love watching Criminal Minds & was only brought into it later in the seasons. I now catch re-runs on A&E, where the "original" team was. Ya know what though? I don't ever sit there & view these characters or the team as the "originals" or the "new team" or refer to the characters as "new additions" -- I love the show all the same, & the characters! It doesn't matter to me one bit if Prentiss has a storyline, or if Rossi has one (forgive me if I've butchered any names, new fan here) -- it just doesn't make a shit of difference to me that they aren't the ORIGINALS!
I will say the same for these characters on Miami now. "Originals" should have absolutly NOTHING to do with Ryan/Natalia having storylines, meeting thier families, or having decent screentime -- it does.not.matter.WHO are originals & who aren't! I'm sorry, I'm not attacking here, but this is something that I will not bugde on. I don't think Eva or Jon took this gig just so they could be stuck in the background either, just cause they aren't considered "originals".
On another note...Jesse, or any other new character, will never be an "original" either, so I don't understand why it's "ok" or "needed" to bring him in & develop HIM, but it isn't ok to develop Ryan or Natalia.
Mjszud, your descriptions is really good, still I don’t see why I need to know about her family. I’ve already know her ex-abusive husband and her beloved sister Anya.
As I don’t see why I should learn more about her background.
Actually it wasn't Natalia who I suggested we learn more about her background/family, it was Ryan. I was just saying that because Natalia is a labrat turned CSI & has no background in the police force that it has good potential for storylines.
So yeah, I’m sorry that I thought two new characters (one man=Jesse and one woman=Ms.X) could help two characters on the show who mean nothing even if we love them.
Sometimes bringing in new characters can & will provide interesting plots/storylines for existing characters, but again, IMO, it doesn't mean that Ryan or Natalia should have to ride thier coat tails either. They're individuals & deserve just as much as the others do, plain & simple.
If tptb want to give Natalia & Ryan arcs & have Jesse be there as a "supporter" (meaning helping to solve their case, or being an ear, or friend -- much in the way Calleigh was for Ryan with his eye injury) then ok, that's fine. In that sense, yes, fresh blood can help existing characters, but that's IF tptb don't push him front & center & leave R & N sitting on the backburner playing off of his drama. Sorry, but that just isn't right & that's when it continues to be offensive & totally disrespectful to the actors & thier fans.
If tptb want to give Natalia & Ryan arcs & have Jesse be there as a "supporter" (meaning helping to solve their case, or being an ear, or friend -- much in the way Calleigh was for Ryan with his eye injury) then ok, that's fine. In that sense, yes, fresh blood can help existing characters, but that's IF tptb don't push him front & center & leave R & N sitting on the backburner playing off of his drama. Sorry, but that just isn't right & that's when it continues to be offensive & totally disrespectful to the actors & thier fans.
Completely agree with this. Whether or not new characters will improve things for already established characters depends on the set of writers/show-runners. I'm sorry to say that I personally am at a point to where I am not sure that the Miami team has the ability to make that work and balance it out. I hope I'm proven wrong, but we'll see.
As for a new female character, I'm not sure that is necessary. All they have to do is raise Valera's presence. She's been there since before Ryan and Natalia, but she still has little to no development character wise. Her only semi-solo storylines were the thing where she got "fired" and the thing with Townsend. Not a whole lot. We still know little to nothing about her. Why not just bring her up, make more for her and allow for her to work more with the team? Whether that is by making her a part-time CSI (but still lab tech) like Adam on NY or by making her full time CSI like they did with Greg on the LV one.
WARNING: this post is not intended to offend anyone. It is just a rant...so if you feel you might get offended, just ignore it
Whoa!!! I was just not expecting this to happen and I do feel I have every right to express my opinion, possibly without being attacked b/c of some misunderstandings
I really don’t know what you guys thought I was meaning with my posts. Surely, I know that I didn’t mean I’m tired of Natalia or Ryan. That’s not what I was meaning, at all!
I know that some of you just love Ryan or adore Natalia. I like them both, I won’t say that I love them or that I adore them just b/c they’re fictional characters and I find it pretty odd to get in love with them. But this doesn’t mean that TPTB have to focus on them.
No, I don't "love" a ficitional character. But I do I "like" both Ryan and Natalia.
I like Ryan because I think he's smart and he's come a long way since he started. He's screwed up and he's learned some hard lessons. Ryan's a survivor and he keeps hanging in there. I think he's been treated badly at times by both Eric and Calleigh and has always been made to feel like an "outsider" by Eric most of the time and by Calleigh a few times.
I believe that Ryan's heart is in the right place. He tries to do the right thing, but a lot of times his actions are based on immediate emotion and not all angles are considered before he moves.
Ryan is not perfect. He's constantly struggling to get it right and that puts me on his side. I identify with Ryan's struggle.
I like Natalia because she is a loyal, warm, compassionate, unselfish, caring person. She is everything I wish I were. She's been hurt terribly in the past, but it hasn't caused her to put up walls or hide her emotions. She is brave enough to leave herself open to people.
She is very good at what she does, DNA, but she wants to be more.
And even though when she was arrested for Nick's murder and Eric and Calleigh stood quietly by, even when she begged them to say something to her, she still will defend them to the death. She stood by Ryan through his whole suspension doing everything she could to support, advise and encourage him.
Natalia is the type of person I would like to have as a friend.
They never focused on Ryan or Natalia and, seeing what they’ve done with the whole E/C plotline, I’m glad they didn’t do it and I truly hope they’ll NEVER focus on a specific character.
But they HAVE, Flo. Right or wrong, they have focused on Eric and Calleigh until people are sick of seeing them - even when seeing them has nothing to do with the relationship. Eric and Calleigh have been the focus for the past 3 seasons. While I think the E/C romance and constant work-related teaming was total overkill and I disliked every single second of it - it still occurred and gave both Eric and Calleigh an unbelievable amount of screentime - to the exclusion of Ryan, Natalia and Frank.
Just because they did that so badly does not mean that Ryan, Natalia and Frank should be made to paid the price for the mistake. They deserve their "moments" as well.
Delynn you mentioned NCIS as a good show when every character gets the screentime they deserve and I actually like what you said about that show ‘cause that’s perfectly true.
But (there’s always a “but”), I don’t think it’s a good idea to take the NCIS example to explain how terrible the screentime on Miami is.
Don’t get me wrong, but NCIS is one of the best-written shows I’ve ever watched and I highly doubt that my beloved writers from Miami are even able to reach their level
If by that you mean that CSI Miami's writers don't come close to being as good as the writers on NCIS - I have to agree. I actually think the writing staff on CSI Miami should be seriously re-evaluated for quality of output. If any of us did our jobs as consistantly substandard as these writers do, we'd be fired. Plain and simple.
As you guys keep saying it’s too bad that writers don’t know what to do with their characters ‘cause you’re absolutely right!!! But this doesn’t mean they’ll be able to improve.
What I am trying to say (possibly without getting boos because of it ) is: look, we have bad writers who don’t know how to handle their own creatures, how can you want them to create something new/refreshing for the characters they keep ignoring or better say ridiculing????? I guess it’s a little bit too hard for them, don’t you think?
I guess I'll use MJ's words here - I'm not going to give TPTB a pass here. If the writers you have aren't up to the task, then replace them with writers who are. We have amateur fanfic writers who do a better job writing stories for, and are truer to, these characters. Only I'm not making it just the writers responsibility. The guiding force behind this show is the show runner. So Ann Donahue is either blind to how badly these characters are being written, or she's lost that magic touch - for the past 3 seasons.
I used to love every character on this show, I really did, but they’ve kept ridiculing all of them, that I just wish we had some sort of time machine so that we can go back. We don’t have it, so yeah the only other possible solution I can find is…”hire someone new”…actor/author…whatever!!! I don’t care as long as I have something new on this show!!!
I did too, Flo. I still like all of the very much, with the exception of Calleigh. I've stated before that I'm excited to see a new character coming onboard. I hope he'll be some fresh blood. But, as I said before, Horatio and Calleigh can act as supporting player for these characters who've been treated so badly. They've had more than their fair share of time, especially Calleigh. It won't hurt them to let the second string step up take the field for a while.
As you said Ryan matured a lot since he first appeared on the show. While I couldn’t stand his Mr. Perfect attitude at the beginning, I learned to enjoy him during these last 3 seasons.
As you said, we don’t know what made him change so much. You are probably right about his family and his background, but, don’t get me wrong, I really wish we would never see his family ‘cause I really don’t see the reason for it on a show like this. I know that this CSI:Miami and it’s supposed to be different from the original show and many many other shows, but I really don’t see why they should bring a member of his family. I can understand it with H and eventually (as they did) with Calleigh and Eric (though, they ruined everything, at least IMHO). They also brought Speed’s parents for his funeral. I can understand them since they were part of the ORIGINAL team, but I wouldn’t accept it for any other member of the team.
I know that the rights of the original team mean a lot to you, Flo. But I guess that it's just not that important to me. I see the original cast as the ones who should be helping the people who come after them. That is the only way a show can exist long-term when the inevitable cast turnover starts to happen. Everyone working together to make the show the best it can be. A team effort. That's not happening and it hasn't been for sometime now on this show. And the show has suffered for it.
Did we see Tony’s family from NCIS? No, still he’s part of the ORIGINAL team. So yeah it is fully unnecessary to know everything about everyone’s family….I guess!
No. We very rarely see anyone's family on NCIS. The writers on that show are good enough that they can come up with stories that are not so dependent on the characters personal lives. We get a little here and there, but we are never buried with it like on CSI Miami.
Sorry, but I really don’t need to see the (un)famous Uncle Ron you keep talking about. What could his function be???? Break another lock??? Wow, not thanks….not my cup of tea
Bare in mind that I’m not saying this b/c I hate the character. I’m saying this for the show’s sake!
But, Flo, hon. Eveyone one with a point of view is stating it because they care about the show and only want to present a perspective that they believe is for the show's sake.
You can care for only one character. But no one character can carry the show on their own. That is why everyone keeps screaming about the "team". Everyone working together. TPTB can't keep focusing on one or two characters to the total exclusion of everyone else.
The character that I enjoy may not be the character you enjoy or MJ enjoys. I think we have seen significant evidence that there are a lot of Ryan, Natalia and Frank fans out there who are tired of not seeing the character that they enjoy. That's really all it comes down to. Fans just like you and me simply asking to see the character they enjoy.
I'm lucky. I enjoy Horatio. I get to see him pretty consistently. I enjoy Eric when he's not with Calleigh. That hasn't happened nearly enough for me and it's not likely to happen in the future now. I enjoy Ryan, Natalia, Frank and Rick Stetler. I would rather see them than Calleigh. But I'm stuck suffering through Calleigh. I'd just like to see the scales tip so that everyone's screentime is a little more balanced.
Same thing for Natalia. Mjszud, your descriptions is really good, still I don’t see why I need to know about her family. I’ve already know her ex-abusive husband and her beloved sister Anya.
As I don’t see why I should learn more about her background. She changed….good for her, but we don’t have to know everything about everyone.
I don’t know whether you remember a show named “The Pretender”. That’s a show where I can see all the characters having a strong background with lots of secrets. Everyone on that show had a family and everyone went on searching for it. Some of them were able to find their relatives, some others not. Still that was on of the shows in which family was an important aspect of it.
Surely the whole CSI:Franchise as most of the other crime dramas we’re watching don’t need this aspect.
I personally don't need for storylines written for Ryan, Natalia, Frank or Rick to involve their families. I think that's an easy story that really wouldn't challenge the writers - probably why it's being suggested so often.
I'll take crimes where they take center stage. It doesn't have to be related to their personal lives or their families.
As for the new character. Well think about Ryan and Natalia since we’re talking about them
What about a character like Erica Sikes (I know I know you hate her, still I think she was the best character ever for Ryan) who drives Ryan crazy….a person who Ryan may fall in love with??? That’s what Ryan needs. He doesn’t need more screentime, he doesn’t need more troubles, he needs happiness and love!!!! Only a new female character can solve Ryan’s problem!!!
Oh. I have to strongly disagree with you here, Flo. I don't want to see another relationship storyline on CSI Miami for a very, very long time. As least not until they get some writers that can write it so that it's not a disaster.
I was never a big fan of Erica Sikes and it was too difficult watching how Erica treated Ryan. Not pleasant at all.
I would rather see them focus on making Ryan and Natalia feel like they are truly a part of the team. Something I haven't really felt in the past. Besides, I'm not sure that Ryan in a successful romantic relationship would make him very popular.
As for Natalia, she needs both a man and a best friend. As much a I love all her scenes with Calleigh, I really don’t how I could stand the two of them especially considering the spoilers we’re reading
especially when Eric phones Natalia instead of Cal
Again, I have to disagree. I don't think that Natalia needs a man. Again, I think Natalia needs to focus on the job. She's still struggling a little with certain aspects of being a CSI (like the gun). I'd like to see her become more comfortable.
I don't particularly care for Natalia/Calleigh scenes. But I do agree it would be nice to see Natalia get a true friend. But please - no more trainwreck relationships. E/C proved they simply don't have the writers with the talent to pull it off.
So yeah, I’m sorry that I thought two new characters (one man=Jesse and one woman=Ms.X) could help two characters on the show who mean nothing even if we love them.
Sorry, but I’m tired of reading how much Ryan and Natalia deserve more scenes and better storylines and you don’t consider the only way possible for Miami’s writers to solve this problem. Since they have some problems and they don't seem able to solve them in a certain way....well skip ahead...consider some new ways. Sometimes we have to change, shows have to change. Peoaple change so...….stop being stuck in the past!
I've completely and totally accepted the idea of Jesse and did from the beginning. I don't know that we really need another addition - man or woman. They have more than sufficient number of character to work with. IMO, none of them have been damaged beyond redemption, except Calleigh. I said before I think that Calleigh is played out. If they were to bring on another woman character to replace Calleigh I wouldn't have an issue with that.
A couple of strong, solid stories for each - Natalia, Frank, Ryan, Rick, and you might be amazed at how quickly they turn it around. Especially with the caliber of actors who are portraying those characters!
I really hope I haven't offended you, Flo. That is that last thing I would ever want to do. You know I think the world of you!
Florry, I am sorry you felt attacked. That certainly wasn't anyone's intention, and certainly not mine. I enjoy reading your posts; your opinions are well written and quite thought provoking.
The one reason this thread was started, IMHO, was that certain of us were frustrated at a perceived lack of screen time for the characters of Ryan, Natalia, Frank and Valera. I don't think there would be a need to have this thread if the need wasn't obviously there. All of us who watch any TV program develop an attachment to certain characters for whatever reason and want to see them get as much screen time as they can. My favorite character, obviously, is Ryan and while I am not IN LOVE with him I do like him. He may be impulsive and acts before he thinks but he has a good heart, is honest and wants to be included. It would be nice to know why he got that way and meet a family member but for me it represents the bigger picture; the lack of character development and no follow up on the things we do know about him (his OCD a prime example). We have gotten Eric and Calleigh's family members shoved down our throat and seeing them and not a glimpse of Ryan's shows in the long run and in the overall picture shows a lack of respect for his character. I guess what I am saying is that I don't have to see a Ryan, Natalia, etc. family member if their characters got the development that the others seem to have gotten. I know that the fault lies directly at the feet of the writers. Instead of adding a new character, which seems dumb to me since they seem to be having trouble coming up with quality story lines for the characters already there, an overhaul of the writing staff maybe what is needed. Bring in new people with fresh ideas and outlooks. As a couple of others here have already said CSI:M has quite a few quality actors who deserve better than they are getting.
I would rather see them focus on making Ryan and Natalia feel like they are truly a part of the team. Something I haven't really felt in the past. Besides, I'm not sure that Ryan in a successful romantic relationship would make him very popular.
If going back to the science and cutting out the personal drama, I am all for it. I have been watching very old episodes the last couple of days (Megan was still on the show) and the stories were quality and everyone seemed to have a purpose. Frankly, I would love to see Ryan just get along with the team. No romance, especially if it is Erica Stykes. I don't think she truly cared about Ryan; the woman only used him to further her career which because of Ryan's inexperience, got him into trouble.
A couple of strong, solid stories for each - Natalia, Frank, Ryan, Rick, and you might be amazed at how quickly they turn it around. Especially with the caliber of actors who are portraying those characters!
I hope you feel better Florry. No one's opinion is better or worse than anyone else's; it is just their opinion and everyone is entitled to it.:thumbsup:
Don't worry hon. You didn't attack me and I do think that you're not even able to do that. So please, don't think I felt I was attacked by you 'cause this is not what happened.
BTW, I would love to clarify a few things about this topic so that I can ease everyone's mind and I can explain to you why I felt I was attacked
As you may know, I've been one of the fist people to write on this thread telling how much TPTB keep ignoring characters like Ryan, Natalia and Frank and how I would love to see a little bit more about them. They desperatly need to get more screentime.
mjszud bumped this thread up using some of my quotes from the spoiler thread. Unfortunately those quotes were the second part of the discussion which began from another quote of mine. In that thread were talking about the show in general and I came up with the idea of bringing a new character on the show just to refresh it a little bit
We were actually talking about the whole E/C stuff and how, to me, the original team was not made of just H, Calleigh and Eric as TPTB keep promoting.
This is the original quote, the one from which this long debate had its beginning
Well, actually I wasn't thinking about it as another way to to show them as a couple. I just think it was a way to show how only Calleigh and Eric, along with H are the original team.
And this when I get pissed off. I just can't believe they really think the "TEAM" had THAT beginning. 'Cause, as far as I know, the original team was made of H, Calleigh, Tim, Eric and Alexx (and probably Megan, I really don't remember her LOL)....it wasn't just about the "magic trio" .
You know what? This show needs new actors, new storylines....that's the only way they can refresh it a little bit. They already doing it with Eddie's entrance and I'm glad they did it 'cause I really don't see how it could have survived with Natalia struggling in that lab almost getting totally blind since she barely saw the sunlight during every episode :shifty:. And what about Ryan who sometimes gets on probation and is able to get out of the lab!...which means getting kidnapped or, better say, getting in big troubles which mean screwing up every now and then.
No way, I'm tired of this. If they can't think about anything new for the two of them, then skip ahead, bring somone refreshing on the show, bring a new character with a very interesting past. They already doing it with Ryan...they brought Eddie's character and it looks good to me. Now it's time to do the same thing with Natalia. Bring a new female character on the show....possibely no damsel in distress ('cause I'm done with this type of woman on the show )...a woman who knows what she wants and usually gets it! You know the Icy Queen style....like oh yeah Miss Parker from the "Pretender" comes to my mind at the moment LOL. This show needs a character like her (not to mention that I would love to see Andrea Parker on this show )!!!
This can be refreshing both to our eyes/ears and Ryan/Natalia so that they would have new pals and TPTB could bring out something cool about the two of them!
In no way I meant that they needed to replace neither Ryan nor Natalia with new characters. And in no way I meant to say that I dislike the two of them. I was just suggesting a way to refresh the show. Not to mention the fact that this suggestion was meant for everyone. It can help everyone on the show
I may have written it in the wrong way so that you all felt I meant that both Ryan and Natalia were useless. Well that's not what I meant, absolutely.
I mentioned the two of them just b/c I thought that their situation is the worse one, but this doesn't mean I want the two of them out of the show 'cause that's not what I want. I wanted Eric out of the show and I got it. Now they can do everything they want as long as they prevent ignoring Ryan and Natalia 'cause they desperatly need more screentim. If a friendship or a relationship (which, OFC, has to be part of the "behind the scenes...we will never actually see it" stuff) can help the two of them, well then, go ahead for it. I'm all for it as long as it means we gotta see more of happy Ryan and happy Natalia :thumbsup:
Just b/c we're talking about it I'd like to clarify and another thing and, then, I'd like you to go ahead with your discussion. I won't interfere 'cause I don't want to talk about this topic since it wasn't my intention to talk about it. Not that I don't like you disagreeing with me, but just b/c I was referring to something completely different rather than adding a new character on the show instead of developing a little bit more Natalia or Ryan .
But they HAVE, Flo. Right or wrong, they have focused on Eric and Calleigh until people are sick of seeing them - even when seeing them has nothing to do with the relationship.
Actually I never said they didn't focus on Eric or Calleigh. I said that they have never focused on Ryan and Natalia. But they did focus on Eric and Calleigh. What they've done with the two of them was too much for me and I truely hope they will never focus on a specific on a certain character anymore 'cause I've seen enough of their so called character development . So yeah I'm glad they have never focused on Natalia or Ryan 'cause I know that it would have been bad and I truely hope they will never focus on them just for the show's sake!
So, please go ahead with your discussion and ignore me
YAY!! Thanks for this thread! Rex Linn, Eva LaRue, and Jonathan Togo are all such gifted, talented actors who've proven in the past that they can handle storylines. Writers, you have some great talent at your fingertips, and you can't possibly run out of stories if you'd use them once in a while, instead of overdoing the H/Julia and E/C.
I think Jonathan did really well in "Wolfe in Sheep's Clothing", but I believe he was totally upstaged by E/C. And while you're at it, how about making their storylines halfway believable? A professional "torturer" wouldn't leave any evidence.
The "most watched show in the world" according to some will turn out to be a career killer.
Don't worry hon. You didn't attack me and I do think that you're not even able to do that. So please, don't think I felt I was attacked by you 'cause this is not what happened.
But they HAVE, Flo. Right or wrong, they have focused on Eric and Calleigh until people are sick of seeing them - even when seeing them has nothing to do with the relationship.
Actually I never said they didn't focus on Eric or Calleigh. I said that they have never focused on Ryan and Natalia. But they did focus on Eric and Calleigh. What they've done with the two of them was too much for me and I truely hope they will never focus on a specific on a certain character anymore 'cause I've seen enough of their so called character development . So yeah I'm glad they have never focused on Natalia or Ryan 'cause I know that it would have been bad and I truely hope they will never focus on them just for the show's sake!
I owe you an apology, Flo. You're right. I misread what you said and responded to what my pea brain "thought" I read. You were referring to Ryan and Natalia. I know that you stepped up in pretty short order to say that you weren't a big fan of the way the E/C romance materialized and you felt E/C was being played a little too much. That knowledge alone should have made me re-read what you said before I responded. I'm so sorry.
Not a chance, sweetie. I enjoy your posts too much to ever ignore you! Besides, I do agree with you that a little fresh blood won't hurt anything - as long as the writers keep it in perspective.
I think a new character gives our current cast the chance for more time if the writers can see the potential of showing him working and establishing relationships with each of the team. If they do it right, this would work to everyone's benefit.
But if TPTB aren't very careful with the introduction of this new character, the negativity and hostility that is already being displayed by some fans is going to take over and continue the split in the fanbase that began with the inception of the E/C storyline and continues with Adam's departure.
Thank you for taking the time to share, Flo. Your comments are always so respectful and thoughtful of everyone's perspective. I look forward to many, many more.
